posted 10 August 2005 01:28 PM            

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Originally posted by Humanized:
If your words are true , then maybe you can answer this question :
why did the west separate Gov from Church?

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Originally posted by kafir4ever:
It has to do with democracy. Religion is a personal choice and should never be used in regards to decision making for the whole population. Not everyone believes in a certain faith. If politics and religion mix the problems arise of what religions and what issues. Christians may want a ban on abortions..the Muslim community may want headscarves worn by all women in public.
A religious person might be happy to have their religious issues as part of the state law but would they really be willing to accept the issues of other religions?

Secularists however do not hold that the state must be opposed to religion.

The opposite of secularism is a theocracy in which the state and state religion are inseperable and the rule of law is based on interpretation of a religious texts such as the Bible or the Koran. Countries like Saudi Arabia, the Vatican and Iran, in state affairs are managed by religious authority or by its explicit consent. In such theocracies, a citizen is considered to be a member of the state religion merely due to his citizenship, and is subject to religious injunctions and is legally required to believe and worship appropriately. Not very undemocratic..

There are a number of proposed reasons to support a separation of church and state:
* The rights of the minority have historically been violated by the rights of the majority. Members of a non majority religion often find themselves persecuted, socially shunned, and harassed.

* The church might harm the state. For example, religious conviction might cause the state to become involved in a disastrous war, or to remain pacific when force is necessary for the preservation of the state. It may also influence public policies in a manner detrimental to those who do not follow all the church's teachings; for instance, historically, the Catholic Church had its views of baptism enforced, which led to persecution and emigration to the United States by dissenting groups. In addition, religious conviction may make political debate difficult, it being impossible to contradict arguments which, essentially, arise from personal faith. Granting them official status allows politicians to use religion as an argument from authority.

* The state might harm the church. For example, the state might dictate a religious ceremony that the church's dogma declares is wrong; or, the state may force the participation of religious people in some aspect of civic life in a manner that offends their religious convictions and offends their conscience; or, the state may discriminate in favor of one church and against members of other churches.

quote:

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Originally posted by Humanized:
Wouldn't the Western Muslims be considered as minority? or should they hide and live in fear?
and does democracy treat them as Muslims or as Free individuals?

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Originally posted by kafir4ever:
It is the other way round. WE live in fear. Muslims are treated very well in the West. How are Christians are treated in Islamic countries? Can we say the same? How are Christians are treated in Iran, Saudi, Arabia, and the other Islamic countries. How about Lebanon that used to be 80% Christian?

The problem is not with the West but with Muslims. There is something fundamentally wrong with thrm. At the root of this is their worldview, which divides nations into believers and infidels, Muslims and non Muslims, the chosen and the misguided, the blessed and the accursed, the virtuous and the decadent.

Throughout the western world there are hundreds of societies bearing the name of only one religion and that is ISLAM. Examples: AMC, AMA, NABIC, ICNA, ISNA, CAIR etc. etc. There are hundreds of Ummatic organizations/societies throughout the North America and elsewhere in the whole world. Ummatic organizations mostly preach segregation/isolation of Muslims from other peoples in general in the host countries. They teach Muslims that they are superior and their religion is superior and ask to guard their children from mixing with the western "rotten" society. As a result, future generations of Muslims can not blend with the society of host country resulting isolationists and problematic youngsters in an alien society.

[This message has been edited by kafir4ever (edited 10 August 2005).]

quote:

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Originally posted by Humanized:
Wouldn't the Western Muslims be considered as minority? or should they hide and live in fear?
and does democracy treat them as Muslims or as Free individuals?

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The American Constitution, when applied correctly, protects the rights of the minority (of whatever form) because it stands for justice for all. That *correct* application is the key, though.

Just like I think Islamic law, from what I have learned, protects the rights of the minority when applied correctly because it is just and fair as well.

quote:

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Originally posted by kafir4ever:
The problem is not with the West but with Muslims. There is something fundamentally wrong with thrm.

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quote:

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Originally posted by kafir4ever:
There are a number of proposed reasons to support a separation of church and state:
* The rights of the minority have historically been violated by the rights of the majority. Members of a non majority religion often find themselves persecuted, socially shunned, and harassed.

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Originally posted by Humanized:
and wasnt asking about your personal opinion and generalization you said about how Muslims are treating/treated in the west!

and what do you mean by WE?- who are you and who you represent? you can only express your own point of view.

Last, i was asking about Western Muslims in their homelands , how would they be treated as a minority in a democratic system disregarding religion?

There you go ... you can all start discussing this here

[This message has been edited by Pendarth (edited 10 August 2005).]

posted 10 August 2005 01:37 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Pendarth:
There you go ... you can all start discussing this here

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You just love to see your name go up in flames, dontcha, Pendarth?

I stand by my nation's *intent* to keep church and state separate because it is, in my opinion, the best for ensuring a person's right to exercise any and all religions.

I am not opposed to a state-sanctioned religion, per se, as long as those who are not part of the majority religion are not persecuted and may continue to practice their beliefs freely.

posted 10 August 2005 01:42 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by kafir4ever:
It has to do with democracy. Religion is a personal choice and should never be used in regards to decision making for the whole population. Not everyone believes in a certain faith. If politics and religion mix the problems arise of what religions and what issues.

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I like you name k4e ... you are well aware that Umar r.a. used to say that the donkey of Umar may accept islam but, umar will never! LOL !

posted 10 August 2005 01:46 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Snoozin:
You just love to see your name go up in flames, dontcha, Pendarth?

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posted 10 August 2005 01:58 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Pendarth:

Susan or k4e ... can you please elucidate, in an ideal state, which areas would be under the control of the state and which under the church?

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Hmmmm, I think since we all (as unique humans) have a different opinion of what an ideal state would be, it would be difficult to say.

posted 11 August 2005 05:39 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by kafir4ever:
It is the other way round. WE live in fear. Muslims are treated very well in the West. How are Christians are treated in Islamic countries? Can we say the same? How are Christians are treated in Iran, Saudi, Arabia, and the other Islamic countries. How about Lebanon that used to be 80% Christian?

The problem is not with the West but with Muslims. There is something fundamentally wrong with thrm. At the root of this is their worldview, which divides nations into believers and infidels, Muslims and non Muslims, the chosen and the misguided, the blessed and the accursed, the virtuous and the decadent.

Throughout the western world there are hundreds of societies bearing the name of only one religion and that is ISLAM. Examples: AMC, AMA, NABIC, ICNA, ISNA, CAIR etc. etc. There are hundreds of Ummatic organizations/societies throughout the North America and elsewhere in the whole world. Ummatic organizations mostly preach segregation/isolation of Muslims from other peoples in general in the host countries. They teach Muslims that they are superior and their religion is superior and ask to guard their children from mixing with the western "rotten" society. As a result, future generations of Muslims can not blend with the society of host country resulting isolationists and problematic youngsters in an alien society.

[This message has been edited by kafir4ever (edited 10 August 2005).]

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quote:

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Originally posted by ben_elias:
Hi all,

I second this 99%. He has a point. Have you noticed that the Muslims in America and other infidel countries are treated with respect and Christians living in their OWN countries have none?

Muslims in the West tend to gloss over this point but yet they are the first person to point the finger and call 'Islamaphobe' to anyone that might point out the truth in the Middle East.

Another hypocrisy that Muslims in the West have (and I have witnessed this for myself many, many times) is that they hate the west, label all Christian and non Muslim women whores, discuss how they hate Jews and label America is the Great Satan, but yet they were the first people to emigrate to the same nation they called the Great Satan.

No one of immigrated countries should forget their heritage, fine. But when Islam tells the Muslims that they are not to be friends with Christians and Jews because we a dirty then we have a society that just wants to impose themselves on us like in the Middle East.

Take a look at Osama Abdullah and his webpage www.answering-christianity.com . He gloats on and on about how Christians are bad, how everything Islamic is perfect and how bad the society is. But the funny thing is - he chose to immigrate there!

What a shameless hypocrite. From Palestine where he is originally from it (http://www.answering-christianity.com/purpose.htm) is easy to emigrate to any Muslim country, since they are all brothers to one another. But what did he choose? The same great Satan, the same country that forces its evil ways on all Muslims. Well there is a message for you Mr. Osama Abdullah:

"If America is soooo bad like what you make it. Then leave the country and continue your 'education' against these evil Christians and kafers from a Muslim country. We wouldn't want your children raised up in such an evilsociety when you can choose a safe haven of ANY Islamic country you shameless hypocrite. Benjamin Elias. Feel free to contact me Zaki_boxing@yahoo.com"

I don't mind Muslims living here under the condition that they don't bring their hate with them, is this possible? Is there such thing as a 'moderate Muslim?' Feel free to post your thoughts to my post.

God bless,
Benjamin Elias
zaki_boxing@yahoo.com

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posted 11 August 2005 06:13 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ben_elias:
Hi all,

Have you noticed that the Muslims in America and other infidel countries are treated with respect and Christians living in their OWN countries have none?

Another hypocrisy that Muslims in the West have is that they hate the west, ... but yet they were the first people to emigrate to the same nation they called the Great Satan.

God bless,
Benjamin Elias
zaki_boxing@yahoo.com

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I wonder if I understand you right ... Are you are comparing American Muslims living in the US & Egyptian Christians living in Egypt? If so, firstly the American Muslims _are_ living in their OWN country. It is true that in general, most are still being treated fairly respectfully - so the media says. But, the treatment of a large number - having been imprisoned or "disappeared" illegally and unjustly is growing daily. (I cannot comment on the treatment of the Christians in Egypt - but, I have no reason to believe to the contrary). Secondly, I wonder if you are aware of the implications of the Patriot Act - which has taken away any rights and liberties that US constitution had initially granted to ALL citizens (regardless or race, color, creed) - thus unless it is repealed, and urgently, it is only a matter of time that the situation the US deteriorates.

Your second point is a valid one, ben ...

I agree with you about the hypocracy of those who verbally claim hatred for something yet by their actions they prove otherwise ... that is hypocrasy. Just like one who berates racism yet himself engages in it, or any other example that you may with to choose. As I stated earlier in my original post:

quote:

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... {thus the} closer a persons life reflects his {the propeht's s.a.w.} (in outward actions, and inner beliefs, worries, concerns, feelings {hopes, aspirations, likes, dislikes}) he closer he will get to allah s.w.t.

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On a side note: You appear to be well versed in the quraan and hadith but the quraan itself warns people that it may be a source of guidance or a means of going astray:

The Cow (2: 2-5) Alif. Lam Mim. This Book whereof there is no doubt, is a guidance unto the God-fearing. Who {defining god-fearing} believe in the Unseen, and establish prayer, and out of that wherewith We have provided them expend. And who believe in that which hath been sent down unto thee and that which hath been sent down before thee and of the Hereafter they are convinced.
The Cow (2: 26) He sendeth many astray thereby, and He guideth many thereby, and He sendeth not astray thereby any except the transgressors,

The Tablespread (5: 44, 46-47, 68) Verily We sent down the Taurat wherein was a guidance and a light. By it the prophets who submitted themselves judged those who were judaised, and so did the divines and the priests by that wherewith they were entrusted of the Book of Allah and they had become witnesses thereof. Wherefore fear not the mankind but fear Me, and barter not My revelations for a small price, And whosoever judgeth not by that which Allah hath sent down - those then they are the infidels. ... And in their footsteps We caused 'Isa, son of Maryam, to follow, confessing to that which had preceded him, the Taurat, and We vouchsafed unto him the Injil wherein was a guidance and a light, confirming that which had preceded it, the Taurat, and a guidance and an admonition unto the God-fearing. And let the people of the Injil judge by that which Allah hath sent down therein; and whosoever judgeth not by that which Allah hath sent down, then those! - they are the transgressors. ... Say thou: people of the Book! ye rest not on aught until ye establish the Taurat and the Injil and that which hath now been sent down unto you from your Lord. And that which hath been sent down unto thee will surely increase many of them in exorbitance and infidelity; so mourn thou not over and disbelieving people.

posted 18 August 2005 03:40 AM            

I apologize I did not see this post at all.

No I am not comparing American born Muslim converts to Coptic Christians; I am comparing the Muslim emigrated society to America with the Coptic Christians in their own country of Egypt.

What I am saying is that some Muslims are the biggest hypocrites because they curse America but yet they love the freedom, healthcare, jobs etc. but yet America is the source of all evil and is the great Satan.

Are you complaining about the Patriot ACT? The one that is so unfair to Muslims in America? You have no idea what the Copts go through, the woman raped in the name of Islam then forced to convert while the police don’t help you. Muslim’s feeling free to walk all over you and if you retaliate they will riot. We can’t go to state run universities such as Al Azhar and it is hard to get jobs because were Christians, is that fair? The Patriot Act is a watered down version of the unwritten laws in Egypt.

Why don’t you complain about that? Since you love humanity so much why don’t you stand up for the religious minority in Egypt? They are in a worse state than the Muslims in America x1000 so why don’t you start with our backyard where Copts are persecuted in their own country then worry about how Muslims are treated in immigrant countries? Or are you only concerned with how Muslims are treated?

Concerning the going astray with verses, do you believe I used to be a Muslim and then I left to become a Christian?

I was born a Coptic Christian. At the age of 19 I then studied all the religions even other Christian denominations but all came up short theologically and Coptic is the one with the clean record and perfect theology.

So tell me, why should I convert to Islam?

God bless,
Benjamin Elias
Zaki_boxing@yahoo.com

[This message has been edited by ben_elias (edited 18 August 2005).]