posted 20 April 2002 03:03 AM            

As an American woman that has been doing my research about Egyptian men first hand over the last 4 years, let me put in my 2 cents.

They are charming and know all the right things to say, ie: princess, loving your mind as much as your heart...bla bla bla. They all say it. It's been tested on a million women before you and they know it works. I don't really know if they discuss what works on us among themselves, or if it's just an inbred thing that they all happen to know.

The main thing I want to tell you is that being engaged is a whole different ball of wax in Egypt than it is in America...generally. They get engaged and then they get to know the person. They don't need to love the person (by the same definition of love that we understand) before getting engaged. Engaged simply puts them in a respectable catagory so they can go out with the fiance on dates and get to know her.

If he really wants to meet you and he will pay all expenses for you to come over to Egypt, let him, but I would NEVER agree to the ORFI marriage so he can get out of paying for a hotel for you. If you need to pay the hotel bill, do it, but don't let him talk you into that ORFI marriage. If his mother is accepting the fact that he will ORFI marry you so you don't need his sister to chaperone you, then there is something fishy going on here. I'd be suspect. Get to know the whole family first before doing something unwise.

Another point, do you read Arabic? I'm surprised you do, but that is good if you do. Since you said you were able to read his name on certificates that he showed you from the camera, you must read Arabic to know what you were looking at.... or did you take his word for what they were?

I hope he isn't married, and since you say you can see his flat and there is no sign of a woman around, I hope he is telling the truth.... but it wouldn't be totally impossible that he lives in one flat in a family flat building with his wife and kids and keeps another flat, in the same building, available for his "hobby" flat. In otherwords, where he goes to escape the family and use the Internet. His wife might not bother to clean that flat, or worse, she might be forbidden from going in there. He wouldn't be the first or only man in Egypt to do such a thing if he does. I hope it's not true, but another reason to come visit him and his family before getting your heart too involved.

posted 20 April 2002 12:24 PM            

QUOTE]Originally posted by Bthompson:
Becky, thank you for your insight. I know what you mean about them saying all the right things. I think this is a inbred man trait, weather they are foreign or right here in the USA. I have never had an experience with an Egyptian however. And I was very leary.
So engaged to them means like "seeing" eachother means here? Thanks for reasuring the ORFI thing. I am not sure what he told his mother (wasnt there) other than he told me that he wanted to marry me, and it was difficult for her but she accepted it. Then he told her that I would be staying with him as his wife, and I was to be known and treated as his wife from that time on.
The certificates and medal that I seen was in English. I do take heed to this relationship and thank you for your words of wisdom.. Do you really think he would let his mother up to his hobby flat? Just wondered.
MODOC: Thank you for your reply. Im not sure about the sex thing.. We never really discuss that. Arent all men obsessed with sex?HA!! We both agreed that there were a lot of sick people on the net. And the conversation thankfully hasnt gone that way.
Islam and Christianity are different. I agree. I have waded through a bit of information about Islam. Mostly I found it to make sense, but I have actually learned very little about the expectations that the religion puts on their lifestyle. So far that has not been a problem. But it's early,and yes.. Time is a very good factor and indication if anything will pan out. I am patient, wonder if he is...
Renata: thanks for clearing up the Muslim/ORFI wedding confusion. I am a step ahead of him I would like to think, if he is a con. No ORFI marriage for me. I just really dont want to get him in trouble with the military. I just dont understand the whole forbidden foreign wife thing. I thought Egypt and USA were allies. I thought we backed Egypts military.. but I could be wrong here.
TO everyone: thank you again. Its nice to have someone to talk to who doesn't go ballistic. I will take my time, And I always investigate. Its my nature. And I am sooooooooooooooo happy I found this board. It has settled, and confirmed a lot of emotions that I was feeling.
Becky.[/QUOTE]

posted 20 April 2002 01:59 PM            

Anyway, I wonder why he received military papers and a medal that were in English? How odd that the Egyptian military gave things out like that....don't you think? Maybe there is already a problem with which military he served in, in the first place. This is getting more and more interesting, isn't it?

If I were you, I'd want to come and meet the mom in person and see what their relationship really is like. Sons and moms typically have the closest relationship there is in a family in Egypt. Since so frequently the husband and wife really never loved each other and don't love each other, a mothers love for her son and vice versa is the one male/female relationship she can usually count on. He may seem to be firm with his mother now for your benefit, but are you ready once you are here full time to be placed #2 to her? You said, "Then he told her that I would be staying with him as his wife, and I was to be known and treated as his wife from that time on." This could be that she is jumping for joy with this news because what he means is FINALLY he found someone to clean the house and take care of her for them. I hope that isn't true, but it wouldn't be the first time a woman was brought in to be a mans wife so she could cook and clean for the family.

I know I'm being extremely negative. I'm sorry, but I really think you should probably take lots of time with this one. You, yourself, said you have a track record for attracting bad men... me too, and you can find the assholes on line as easy as you can face to face. Let him prove himself first. You also said earlier, you have no reason to NOT trust him...well what is your reason for TRUSTING him? You don't even know him. Just be careful.

posted 20 April 2002 04:03 PM            

HI BTH
PLEASE LISTEN TO DEBBIE SHE IS WISE WOMEN,,,IAM EGYPTIAN MEN BUT NOW GET OLD SO I CAN CONVINCE
ORFI MARRIAGE IS NOT A MARRIAGE IT IS PEACE OF PAPER TO GET YOU INVOLVED IN ALL MARRIAGE DUTIES WITHOUT ANY RESPONSIBILITIESON MAN
MOST OF EGYPTIAN MEN NEVER SATISFY WITH ONE RELATION ,,HE IS ALAWYS SEARCH FOR HIS SELFISH NEEDS,AND BY NATURE THEY LOVE WOMEN AND THEY ARE NOT FIDELE PLEASE ACCEPT MY APOLOGIZE ABOUT THESE FACTS
BYE

quote:

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Originally posted by Bthompson:
I know that there are many many many many postings on this site regarding this issue. And I must say I have found a lot of the topics have hit home with me, yet many have missed entirely. I would like to think that I am one of the few women who have found their prince charming and he is legit. I first would like to say, I have learned a lot from this site, also it has reconfirmed what I have learned about Islam, and the Egyptian culture so far. (I am Christian, and American)
Here is the situation, I will try to be brief..
My Fiancé, and I met about a month ago. We talked for extensive hours online. I began to look further into his faith and cultural background. I was particularly alarmed when he said that he felt he loved me from just a day or two after we started talking. But after researching the culture a little bit I learned that Egyptian relationships tend to move very fast. (and accepted it) Then I came on here and learned a little about why. (and once again feel uneasy) Yes, I had my reservations about the whole visa thing, but it never really came up until recently. He has been very open in saying that lately he has had a hard time in Egypt, but loves his life there, & that he has a good life. But for the sake of love.. he would give it up. He calls me his princess, much like the other women describe in here. (yeah I know what you are thinking, after reading a lot in this forum I was thinking it too) Here is where I think my situation differs.. please feel free to step in and show me how wrong I am…
He established in the beginning that he wanted to talk to me everyday, because he doesn’t want me to forget him in anyway. He says that he is in love with my brain, as well as my heart, because I am much more caring than his first wife. (he left her seven months ago but cannot afford the mahr right now he has half of it saved) That I am the one that he has searched for all his life and how he feels that god has brought me to him. He purchased a web cam so that I could see him, he introduced me to his mother over the webcam while she was at his flat one evening. I have met his brother, and his good friend.
We have discussed music, politics, some religion (because I asked), Egyptian history, family, etc. He wishes for me to come there to see his country and his culture first hand, all at his expense. When I expressed my apprehensions of the inappropriateness of me staying with him he said that we would be married and that he told his mother that we would not need the services of his sister staying there because of this. He said in Islam, that as long as the man and woman make the commitment before god and make it known to the society, then they are as good as married with papers.. I looked up marriage in Islam and learned about the orfi marriage.. reconfirmed by your site.. I am not real fond of this green paper, is this what he was talking of? .. he says that in his heart he feels that I am Egyptian, but possess the outward beauty of the American (blonde hair and blue eyes). I know that he is no longer with his ex-wife, because through his webcam I have seen his flat, and there is no sign of a woman, and there is never anyone there with him with the exception of those few times where I met the above mentioned. He says he loves me and misses me. And I fell for it.
Here’s the glitch.. He’s in the Military there. From what he says……. He can’t take a foreign wife. How much of this is true? I haven’t been able to find anything on this in all of my research. I consider myself a smart girl, (I do my research) and hate to be taken.. as I have been many times before by American men. He said he would never break my heart.. and he promised that, and to trust him. I have so far.. I have no reason to not trust him. I have seen his uniform. I have seen certificates that he has shown me with his name on them for the military. He wants to come to me since life there for us would be impossible. He’s not from Luxor, he’s not in the tourist trade, and he’s older than me by almost 4 years, could I have found a good one? There are more things happening here than what I have stated but I don’t know how long these letters can get before the board cuts you off.. or the reader loses interest. Thanks for your opinion.

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posted 21 April 2002 05:43 AM            

this is my first post here and i signed up just to answer you..
I'm an Egyptian Man...

ORFI MARRIAGE:
never fall in this trap. Law in Egypt does not consider it marriage at ALL, and in case of seperation you won't be able to take any sort of rights from him.. OKAY..

for the military clothes you have seen they might have been his clothes when he was in the army after university... in Egypt law says that if you have a brother then your to join the army for 1-2 years it depends on your university degree... and as i got to know that he has a brother...

i don't agree with MoDoc that only arab men are obbessed by sex, it's a human desire..
and i also disagree with sser13 that egyptian men don't get satisfied with one relation.. all that depends on the persons personal thinking and character.....

and let me share a story with you i was also chatting for two years with an American girl and never told her that i love her except when she said... and i still have the e-mails Bthompson if you would like me send them to you post you e-mail here...

Bthompson
i advise you like Dibbie to go and meet his family, and post what happened exactly word by word over here,on the board and let an egyptian tell you his/her opinion...

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A JOKE:{regarding that princess thingy:}
THIS JOKE IS NORMALLY SAID IN EGYPT:
before marriage the man talks and the girls listens, during engagement a the girl talks and the man listens and after marriage both shout and the neigbhourhood listens...
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what i want to say is that sweet words are at the tongue of every man on planet earth before marriage... {so be careful}
------

if hez divorced from his wife then see the paper and be sure that he has no kids, as if he has then probably he would re-marry her..

one more thing is possible... maybe he just wants to marry you in order to get kicked out of the military and go and live in the States maybe he thinks it's a better future there plus he would get the nationality on marrying you...

listen Bthompson, i'm advising as only and all what i said might not be true he might be a nice guy.. but be careful, as i know that a womans' heart wound is thousand times more than that of a mans....

anyways take care and have fun

posted 21 April 2002 06:45 AM            

I know my ranting maybe incorrect but just trying to put into words what I have observed elsewhere and from experience of people around me.

[This message has been edited by cairowannabee (edited 21 April 2002).]

posted 21 April 2002 09:45 PM            

Sser13: Thanks for your response. I know now that this ORFI marriage is definitely NOT the way to go!! As far as I am concerned after hearing all this.. this will not be an option for me. I am also in search of a faithful husband, since I would be a very faithful wife. It makes you wonder how you are supposed to find the one who is, when everyone claims they are faithful and over half seem to lie about it. I think this is true of men in general.. not just Egyptian men.. rest assured.

MoDoc: I’m listening … I’m listening!! (giggles)

Kimo: I’m flattered you signed on just to stake your claim. Thanks.. always good to hear a non-objective man’s point of view. Again.. thanks for the advice about ORFI. Interesting point about the Army clothes. You are right about the human desire issue. It happens all too often even here. I am hoping that his thinking and character are of such to be faithful.. but time and God will reveal that to me. I take both you and Debbie’s advice about meeting his family. This will be a while in the future. But rest assured that when and if I do, I will post my story, successful or not!!!! You all have been so helpful. Do they normally remarry ex-wives?? This is definitely shocking to a westerner.. that is not common at all here. Let’s just hope he is a good guy.. I have been waiting for one for what seems like a long time.

Cairowannabee: I have also noticed this everywhere.. not just amongst foreigners. My knowledge base is so limited when it goes beyond the borders of the US, when it comes to marital practices. However I think that extramarital affairs are common everywhere...UNFORTUNATELY.

MoDoc: look at this long winded reply.. seems I am a tad bit wordy. Maybe if I didn’t reply to everyone, but that would be rude. I appreciate all the insight every one has given me. This is definitely an issue before I ever consider marrying him, let alone having children. Not that that I haven’t already thought of how beautiful they would be.. but oh well that’s a woman for you… off in la-la-land. Whoa.. too scary. Too silly also about your brother… SEE its everywhere.. It is very very interesting to learn about all this.

posted 06 June 2002 03:16 AM            

Egyptians see the love in different way. It is true that someone can feel "love" towards a pretty woman even in 1 day not 1 month, yet depending how well he speaks English to say excatly what he meant, because Arabic love expressions and American love expressions are 2 totally different worlds, as well as way of loving.

You said :"But after researching the culture a little bit I learned that Egyptian relationships tend to move very fast."

Its not fast, they just dont waste time, basically they talk to girls in order to get somewhere, every human being is searching 4 love, why is this so strange?

You said ;"Yes, I had my reservations about the whole visa thing, but it never really came up until recently. He has been very open in saying that lately he has had a hard time in Egypt, but loves his life there, & that he has a good life. But for the sake of love.. he would give it up."

What he told you is true. Egyptian life is very rich, you can really have a fun there especially if you are financially well off.
Another point is, if you think maybe that he wants to live in USA because of America, not because OF YOU, THIS MAY BE TRUE.....but he at least told you how he feels, so he is not lying, what are his true intentions though you are the one who must ask yourself, are you ready to trust him and do you know him well enough to recognize if he is sincere or not.
You said :"He calls me his princess, much like the other women describe in here."

Thats how they talk, they are very romantic, they are searching 4 true love like anyone else, they are not ashamed of expressing the feelings with loved one, and when woman hear this loving words, of course she likes it, thats what they want anyway..."to be liked".

you said:"He established in the beginning that he wanted to talk to me everyday, because he doesn’t want me to forget him in anyway. "

Long distance relationships die without contact, so this is good, its the chance to know him better.

You said:" I have met his brother, and his good friend."
Good sign, usually they dont introduce "fiance" to family members unless they are having serious thoughts.

"When I expressed my apprehensions of the inappropriateness of me staying with him he said that we would be married and that he told his mother that we would not need the services of his sister staying there because of this."

This is not clear to me, what he meant. Anyway, it is disrespectful to bring a woman home unless she is accompanied by someone, he cant claim you as wife unless you are legally married to him. So this part maybe was his test, maybe he wanted to know if you will except it this way. Surely, you should say "no",you stay in hotel, no intimacy whatsoever unless you get married legally in US Embassy where you can understand in English, ask 4 translation of all documents, say NO to Orfi marriage be4 you even go there,and see what he will say about this.

"He said in Islam, that as long as the man and woman make the commitment before god and make it known to the society, then they are as good as married with papers.."

He reffers to Orfi marriage, probably because he is not leggaly divorced from his wife, so if you accapt Orfi marriage, it is legal for 2 of you to be together but you are considered as 2 nd wife [my understanding....since he did not divorce leggaly his 1st wife, what else you call it?]

"he says that in his heart he feels that I am Egyptian, but possess the outward beauty of the American (blonde hair and blue eyes).

He is trying to tell you that he doesnt mind you are American, however, in reality you are far from Egyptian culture, Egyptains girls differ very much from American in life style, way of thinking, etc. In regards of blonde hair and blue eyes, looool, they love it.

"I know that he is no longer with his ex-wife, because through his webcam I have seen his flat, and there is no sign of a woman, and there is never anyone there with him with the exception of those few times where I met the above mentioned."

He is not with his wife, because only stupid woman will allow her husband to spend hours talking with a pretty girl.....loool...see how long he can keep it, and if he is consistent, but I also dont think that his family would allow him to do this if the wife is in the house.

"He’s in the Military there. From what he says……. He can’t take a foreign wife. How much of this is true? "

This is true, if he serves Military, he cant even leave the country without permission of his superiors, and they would question him for reasons of leaving, so ask yourself......is he saying he would quit his job 4 you? and why?

"I have been many times before by American men. He said he would never break my heart.. and he promised that, and to trust him."

Nobody knows this. Maybe he would not, maybe he would. Ask him why he is seperated from his wife? Reasons?

"I have no reason to not trust him."

You have 1 reason actually, and that is Orfi marriage. Why orfi marriage?

"He wants to come to me since life there for us would be impossible."

Not really, probably what he meant is that it would create a lots of conflicts if people find out about you and he maybe still did not divorce his wife legally. If he is really straightforward, he should not mind to live here or there, as long as you love each other, Egypt is not BAD country TO LIVE and there are manyyyyyy Americans living over there. they have American University and life over there is possible indeed.

my CONCLUSION: ORFI MARRIAGE/BAD SIGN
CONTRADICTIONS: He cant marry foreign wife beacuse he is in Military,BUT THAN.....how can he leave Egypt and come to USA if Miltary people can not TRAVEL unless its approved from his superiors. This means he would have to QUIT his job! In this case, he would no longer be in military, therefore he could marry you legally. In this case, there is a REASON why he offered you ORFI mariage!!!!!!! Watch out. I bet its connected with his ex wife, or simple, he is not really in love with you, otherwise what man would offer ORFI marriage, dont be silly!

posted 06 June 2002 06:01 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by niledoc:

I can tell you with certainty that the Egyptian government will not allow him to marry a foreigner in a legal marriage. So orfi marriage would be the only option, even if he sincerely wants a legal marriage. Then, even if they get an orfi marriage, the government then will consider it a marriage for the purposes of the military, and start harrassing you, following you, spying on you, basically trying to break up the marriage, and if they fail that they will take him to military court, and either kick him out of the military, or more likely, put him in prison for at least a year.[/B]

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**********************8
NILEDOC,

posted 06 June 2002 09:04 AM            

Based solely on how you described the start of this relationship... seems likely that he was trolling for a foreign woman. Maybe I'm strange, but I'd consider anyone speaking of "love" within a few days to misunderstand the meaning of the term. Lust or idealism maybe.

This whole scenario is particularly tricky when speaking of relationships between two cultures & religions. Are you planning to convert to Islam? If not- expect added challenges, especially when you have children.

There are men in Egypt (particularly upper middle class) whose families have encouraged them to wed a Western women to help provide for their family, or to give their son a chance to study/work abroad and improve their livelihood. The man may already be married and seeking to take a legal second wife (the so-called Hajj Metwalli complex). Are you certain that he is divorced? It is customary for a man to move into a new flat with his wife upon marriage. If he's telling you the truth, then he must have given up this flat to his wife if he is living at home. But if he's lying, he still lives in this flat (with or without his wife) and just keeps his old room at his parents' house). Inquire about how long was he married to his wife and why he divorced. If longer than a year, expect he has kids.

As some parents (mothers especially) are supportive of this notion of marrying foreigners to better the family's lot, their overt knowledge of the pending marriage to a foreigner should not be taken as a sign that the man is truthful in all he says or his intentions. And yes, I do know an Egyptian man whose parents helped him marry a German woman to help support his first wife and kids, all of this (still) behind her back.

As for the army deal. Egypt forbids military officers from marrying foreign wives because it believes mothers would "corrupt" the children and their patriotic loyalty to Egypt. Officers caught doing so, do not get dismissed from the army (if that were the case, everyone would do it to get out of the army)... they get a court martial.

Just ideas to think about.

posted 19 December 2002 05:25 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bthompson:
I know that there are many many many many postings on this site regarding this issue. And I must say I have found a lot of the topics have hit home with me, yet many have missed entirely. I would like to think that I am one of the few women who have found their prince charming and he is legit. I first would like to say, I have learned a lot from this site, also it has reconfirmed what I have learned about Islam, and the Egyptian culture so far. (I am Christian, and American)
Here is the situation, I will try to be brief..
My Fiancé, and I met about a month ago. We talked for extensive hours online. I began to look further into his faith and cultural background. I was particularly alarmed when he said that he felt he loved me from just a day or two after we started talking. But after researching the culture a little bit I learned that Egyptian relationships tend to move very fast. (and accepted it) Then I came on here and learned a little about why. (and once again feel uneasy) Yes, I had my reservations about the whole visa thing, but it never really came up until recently. He has been very open in saying that lately he has had a hard time in Egypt, but loves his life there, & that he has a good life. But for the sake of love.. he would give it up. He calls me his princess, much like the other women describe in here. (yeah I know what you are thinking, after reading a lot in this forum I was thinking it too) Here is where I think my situation differs.. please feel free to step in and show me how wrong I am…
He established in the beginning that he wanted to talk to me everyday, because he doesn’t want me to forget him in anyway. He says that he is in love with my brain, as well as my heart, because I am much more caring than his first wife. (he left her seven months ago but cannot afford the mahr right now he has half of it saved) That I am the one that he has searched for all his life and how he feels that god has brought me to him. He purchased a web cam so that I could see him, he introduced me to his mother over the webcam while she was at his flat one evening. I have met his brother, and his good friend.
We have discussed music, politics, some religion (because I asked), Egyptian history, family, etc. He wishes for me to come there to see his country and his culture first hand, all at his expense. When I expressed my apprehensions of the inappropriateness of me staying with him he said that we would be married and that he told his mother that we would not need the services of his sister staying there because of this. He said in Islam, that as long as the man and woman make the commitment before god and make it known to the society, then they are as good as married with papers.. I looked up marriage in Islam and learned about the orfi marriage.. reconfirmed by your site.. I am not real fond of this green paper, is this what he was talking of? .. he says that in his heart he feels that I am Egyptian, but possess the outward beauty of the American (blonde hair and blue eyes). I know that he is no longer with his ex-wife, because through his webcam I have seen his flat, and there is no sign of a woman, and there is never anyone there with him with the exception of those few times where I met the above mentioned. He says he loves me and misses me. And I fell for it.
Here’s the glitch.. He’s in the Military there. From what he says……. He can’t take a foreign wife. How much of this is true? I haven’t been able to find anything on this in all of my research. I consider myself a smart girl, (I do my research) and hate to be taken.. as I have been many times before by American men. He said he would never break my heart.. and he promised that, and to trust him. I have so far.. I have no reason to not trust him. I have seen his uniform. I have seen certificates that he has shown me with his name on them for the military. He wants to come to me since life there for us would be impossible. He’s not from Luxor, he’s not in the tourist trade, and he’s older than me by almost 4 years, could I have found a good one? There are more things happening here than what I have stated but I don’t know how long these letters can get before the board cuts you off.. or the reader loses interest. Thanks for your opinion.

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