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Author Topic:   MORE about islam....from the beginning to the end
AMR the great
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Posts: 31
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 12 January 2004 06:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AMR the great     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
THIS WAS A LETTER I SENT TO A WOMAN ASKED ME ABOUT ISLAM...WORTH TO READ..

First,we must set a concept that Judaism & christianity & islam has no difference in thier fundmentals or purposes for the mankind because they came from the same light (same god).

regarding christianity there is only two difference between it and islam, and i will mention and highlight them in my letter later.

i will begin the tale from the beginning, this will help you to understand more.

before the creation of human, god created angels from light & 'jenn' from fire then he told the angels that he is going to create a new party [or creation] in the earth, they told him" r u creating who destroy it & spread the blood" he replyed them "I know what u don't know" then he created Adam from dust and blow the soul into him & then created Eve from a part from the bones of Adam.

those r two ways for human creation [remember that while u read plz]& the 3rd is born, as we all came with.

the devil was from the jenn, he was a good slave (before the next situation) to god till he was raised to the position of angels.

God ordered the angels & the devil to worship to Adam, All the angels do what they was told expect the devil he refused snobbing saying "how could i worship to what u made from dust & i was made from fire".

since then god cursed him & ordered to throw him in hell, but he asked god to leave him till they day of rerestruction, & from then he was the enemy for humans, & here is the 1st lesson "snobbing on god's orders will take us to his punishment".

days went on, and the race of Adam & Eve increased, and god send messengers to people telling them to believe in him and pray for him otherwise they will have his punishment in life and after rerestruction (going to hell).

god say in Quraan " i wasn't punishing & sufferring people unless i sent a messenger".

he continued sending messengers for every village & party [alot of thier stories in quraan], then he sent muza with judaism, telling in thier book about the sent of jesus [but they have changed or deleted this part and killed jesus i.e according to christianity].

then he sent gebreel (the angel) to mariam the virgin to blow the soul on her, and jesus then was born and this is the 4th way for human creation.

And here comes the first difference between islam and christianity, christians say that jesus is the son of god, how dare they to say that?

jesus is merely a human created by a way nearly like Adam, a slave to god, a messenger, one of his creature,off course a good man but not a son. even jesus himself didn't say that, but people who said that on him.

i wonder if jesus lived more and get married, will it to be a god's race like the old greece gods? i don't think so.this prove my point.

jesus came with all his miracles and the holly pipple, telling people about a new messenger after him called Ahmaad { in arabic Muhamaad & Ahmaad are the same} ,[but also christians have changed or deleted this part too like jewish did with jesus].

the second difference is that christians say that jesus was killed and crossed, but god say in quraan that he raised jesus to the heaven, and the one who was crossed not the real jesus, but by a miracle, god changed the one who told the jewish about the jesus place ( i think in the last dinner) to look like the real jesus and he was the one who killed & crossed not the real jesus.

well, from about 2000 years and after with 600 other years if u told me that jesus was killed & crossed i would believe you.
but after the sent of Muhamaad from about 1400 years, i will tell no.
because god [and not any other one, nor Muhamaad himself] told us about this miracle or raising the real jesus to heaven......did u get my point of view?

And then was the sent of Muhamaad, the last messenger of god with the Quraan, ordering people to worship to god alone, to be honest & don't lie & to be good to neighbourhood and orphans & keep away from stealing & fornication & bad treatment for the weak people.

to believe in god alone, also in all his creatures from angels & jenn, believe in all the messengers [noah, muza, jesus, Muhamaad and so on.....with no difference between them], believe in all his books [jewish book, holly pipple & Quraan].

at last the only accepted religion to god after the sent of Muhamaad is islam.

as i said before, god say in Quraan " i wasn't punishing & sufferring people unless i sent a messenger", in old days he sent messengers to every village but nowdays, if u got the message & you was informed about islam, then u have got the messenger and you are not away from god's punishment.

after my words, which i think it gives u alot of information if u didn't turn to islam, the least thing you can do is to ask and search inorder to turn to islam and save your self the hell.

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egy_prince
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Posts: 149
Registered: Sep 2003

posted 13 January 2004 02:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for egy_prince     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good efforts Amr, let me add that alot of those who never read the qur2an, think that it's an old book about life during the Age of Mohamed (PBUH) with handling of his family affairs and his relations with his atheist people.

I will tell u a story I have just heard in brief about someone called Dr./ Miller

He has a good knowledge in the Bible and was a preacher.
he studied mathematics and believes in the logic order of everything.
he decided to study the holy qur2an in order to discover some mistakes in it, he thought he will find a book about the desert life 1400 years ago.

he thought about mentioning the death of the first wife of Messenger Mohamed, but he didn't even find any "Surah" about any of his wives in the time there's a "Surah" called Marriam.
he found that Mohamed was mentioned only 5 times in the qur2an while Jesus was mentioned 25 times.

he said that the Falsification test is a scientific ways of finding faults and the qur2an asks all people to find any mistake in it, and won't find any!!

it's along story but I think u got the point.

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AMR the great
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Posts: 31
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 13 January 2004 07:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AMR the great     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
egy prince..would you contact me plz.
my e mail at my profile

quote:
Originally posted by egy_prince:
Good efforts Amr, let me add that alot of those who never read the qur2an, think that it's an old book about life during the Age of Mohamed (PBUH) with handling of his family affairs and his relations with his atheist people.

I will tell u a story I have just heard in brief about someone called Dr./ Miller

He has a good knowledge in the Bible and was a preacher.
he studied mathematics and believes in the logic order of everything.
he decided to study the holy qur2an in order to discover some mistakes in it, he thought he will find a book about the desert life 1400 years ago.

he thought about mentioning the death of the first wife of Messenger Mohamed, but he didn't even find any "Surah" about any of his wives in the time there's a "Surah" called Marriam.
he found that Mohamed was mentioned only 5 times in the qur2an while Jesus was mentioned 25 times.

he said that the Falsification test is a scientific ways of finding faults and the qur2an asks all people to find any mistake in it, and won't find any!!

it's along story but I think u got the point.


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Undead
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Posts: 7
Registered: Jan 2004

posted 13 January 2004 10:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Undead     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Quran-36:40: It is not for Sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.

I find error in the Quran. The moon orbits the EARTH not the SUN. The Sun does not pass with the moon in orbit what-so-ever There are many times in the Quran where it states that the Sun moves around the Earth. We have long known that the Earth rotates which would give people of the past the IDEA that the Sun that is moving, when in reality it is the Earth that is moving. Every principle of astrology supports this.

Quran-2: 22: Who has made the earth your couch, And the heavens (Sky) your canopy.

Quran-21: 32: And We have made the sky a roof withheld

There is no canopy over the Earth. Otherwise we could not fly into space. A canopy is a covering. Like a ROOF. We have an atmosphere which is only collection of gas, no covering nor roof.

Of course there are dozens of other errors, but I don't care to plow through them all. If one wants to believe in Islam or any religion that they, it is fine. When challenged to find errors in the Quran... it is not difficult. I am not saying that Allah doesn't exist, nor am I saying that Mohammed was not a prophet. Just that there are errors.

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AMR the great
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posted 13 January 2004 12:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AMR the great     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
there is no wrong in the quraan, may be in the translation.
read it in arabic and you will see.
also, you must know good arabic to read quraan, as it is writtin in formal arabic.

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Undead
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Registered: Jan 2004

posted 13 January 2004 01:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Undead     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So you are saying it is not true that the Quran says the Sun orbits the Earth? It says this in the Quran many times. Even when I visited Al Azhar they are saying this. They even admit that there are contradictory statements in the Quran that they don't currently understand. You know, the Jews and the Christians and every religion claims that there is no error in their system. They cannot all be right, obviously. This is where your faith becomes so important. You must force yourself to believe what is untrue. You believe there is nothing wrong in the Quran, only in the translation.... okay. Even those studying the Arabic in the Quran (not the modern Arabic) can find that the Quran is not accurate about many scientific things. But we believe what we want to sometimes, rather than that which we have been shown to be true. This is why the people of every religion think they are right.

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Malcolm-X
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Registered: Jan 2004

posted 13 January 2004 02:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Malcolm-X     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello "Undead",

I appreciate your interest in Islam and Qura'an, but what I don't appreciate is the fact that you are putting as a fact that there are errors in the Qura'an in saying "I find error in the Quran", let's try not to jump at conclusions here. Before stating that as a fact, I assumed that you have researched this matter to the last drop, but unfortunately, you didn't acknolwedge one simple argument, that I'll be making shortly. Please bear in mind that I'm not challenging you or anyone else, I'm just trying to be objective and put forward my point that before throwing facts, anyone, you or me, should research the matter fully.

The Qur'an does not have any contradictions, and it is utterly wrong to say that, the Qur'an has certain things that we can't explain and that's just add to its greatness, because it is beyond our reach with the science and the reasoning that we know now.

The Qur'an, to its greatness, can be explained and address people in every age, in different situations, it might sound strange for you, why the Qur'an would mention that the sun revolves around the earth? or that the earth has a roof or anything that you can't fully explain?, but do you think that ALLAH, in whom you believe exists, and has created everything would miss such a simple detail, and make a mistake in His own book for people, Whom he has created to come one day, and say "I found an error in ALLAH's book" ?, this doesn't make any sense to me unless there is something lacking with the issue of belief in ALLAH in the first place?. ALLAH is not a human being to make mistakes, you see, and that's the very first cornerstone in belief and that would easily destroy your argument.

A better approach would be, now that you know that the verse Has to be right, is how to explain it and go in depth to better understand the miracle behind it, that's if you are already accepting the fact that ALLAH has created everything, but if you are not, there is a long way to get to this stage of acceptance before explaining the verse itself.

Also as a parting note, the Qur'an sometimes uses complex metaphors, so you shouldn't take the verse as a solid statement and that should be it, remember that the Qur'an was challenging the Arabs who were skilled in their language and who have frequently used similar metaphors, in the same way I'm talking to you know, if I started writing in Arabic, you won't understand anything, I have to speak your own language.

Also, imagine that I come to you now and told you that I have a house with a garden on a planet in a different galaxy, Will you believe me?, of course not, if this is going to be true in the future, then my statement will be true at that time in the future and it won't surprise you, the same thing with the Qur'an, ALLAH had to use statements that can withhold its meaning both when interpreted by people in the past and people in the future, but in order to see that, you have to be an expert in the arabic language or refer to a book which doesn't only translate the Qur'an word by word to English but also translate the meanings of the verses to English, that's the only way you are going to have a full understanding of the verses, but just looking at them individually will of course mislead you. If you already have a translation for an explanation of the Qur'an then I very much think you will be able to find an answer.

I hope this enlighten you and us, and I apologize if I was too to the point.

MX

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Undead
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Registered: Jan 2004

posted 13 January 2004 05:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Undead     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually you didn't offend me at all, which is nice of you. However, my arguement never stated that I think Allah is perfect. So therefor his book can also be imperfect. If no one can know all of Allah, how can they know him to be perfect? I don't think Allah is perfect, so I have no problem seeing the Quran as imperfect. So to answer that question, yes *to you* something is lacking in my belief in Allah. Basically, I don't think this deity is any more enlightened than men in the past have been.
I know that most people think their god is perfect and then they make poor excuses about why this world has so much bad. It is all a test... why is it perfect to test every person in the world? What does god enjoy out of having children born with gross disfigurements etc. Is this a perfect way to test things? I have had this debate 100 times so you don't have to answer. The point is that some have *faith* that this is perfection and others don't believe that it is. You know the Pharaoh's have said "I am perfect", the Emperors of Rome said the same thing in an effort to control those minds that are easily captured. All people claim their gods are perfect. All people claim the things in their religion that are contradictory add to the great mystery. That is why Christians say God is Eloh, Isa, and the breath of God (some even add Maryam.) They say "God is one but he is also 3 or 4! That is greatness and mystery only which God is capable of understanding!" I believe this is contradictory, and all Muslims think the same. But when it comes to Muslims own beliefs, they do the same exact thing. Islam isn't special in that regard. Muslims aren't any different than the Israelis that say "in 1000 years Eloh will prove us right, and the Muslims wrong!" or the Christians that say "when Isa returns, he will prove the Jews are wrong and we are right" It ALL comes down to faith, not fact. So, you have not destroyed my arguement because I think it is all flawed. Allah, and his book, and prophet all were flawed. If Allah never contradicts himself, why does the Prophet Muhammed have different rules than the rest of us? The prophets rules as stated by God contradict the other rules stated by God. The laws of men don't apply to a man if he is a prophet? Anyway there are indeed contradictions in the Quran. Go debate at Al Azhar if you disagree. This is what I did. They said "we don't understand, but it CAN'T be contradictory because God said it" There was no logic, just faith. Just the same reason many religions clash. They believe Torah is from God, or the Quran is from God, the Bible is from God etc. etc. (and yes I know the typical Muslim response to this "only the Quran is from God, the Torah is by prophets and some are just stories, and the Bible is from the students of Isa" but the followers of such books DO NOT BELIEVE that it is not from God.) Just reiterating the fact that it is *belief* and not fact.
This is from an old philosopher confronting some contradictions in the religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

I hope I haven't offended anyone. I tried to put these things in soft words, so if anyone finds them harsh it is unintentional. Thanks for being civil in your response

PS: Feel free to respond, but what this comes down to is belief. As said in the Quran, let you believe what you do and I will believe what I do.

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egy_prince
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Registered: Sep 2003

posted 14 January 2004 03:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for egy_prince     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Undead, are you sure this is ur Name

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Monica
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Posts: 763
Registered: Aug 2003

posted 14 January 2004 07:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Monica     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I personally think that 'undead' has the conviction of his own beliefs, and is honest and courageous enough to admit them. He asks questions and tries to get the available sources to respond, and what he gets over and over is that 'faith' is the answer.

Is 'faith' the solution to all problems, really?

People are so afraid to say what they sincerely believe in fear of being judged, and repress their feelings, ending up living a life that was not in fact what they had wished for themselves.

This is a good debate, and I'm wishing it remains within the limits of decency and respect.

You all know, that religion, as well as politics are topics that could offend and dangerously 'destroy' friendships, marriages and relationships in general, if handled too passionately!

Greetings.
Monica


quote:
Originally posted by egy_prince:
Undead, are you sure this is ur Name

[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 14 January 2004).]

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