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homeylu Member Posts: 393 |
posted 18 July 2004 09:35 AM
  
Keimo, the "slavery" you speak of in "hardcore" Africa-whatever that means, is similar to the caste system in India, where people are born into it, it is not the same of being "forced" into accepting a culture/religion that is not your own, and I don't care if they are black or white that's doing it. And peanut butter was not "invented", that's your ignorance speaking, however there were "300 uses of Peanuts" DISCOVERED, by G.W. Carver, which is quite an accomplishment for a formerly OPPRESSED slave descendant, so yes I'd say I'm proud of that. But all Black Americans are NOT the same complexion, that's the problem with your thought process. Some are as light as George Bush, and some are as dark as Wesley Snipes and all shades in between. We are proud of WHO WE ARE, not of our skin color that we have no control over, but of our heritage and the accomplisments we made, even after 400 years of oppression and racism that still prevails in this country. In fact, its African Americans in this country that are three times as likely to "emphathize" with Arabs who are just now beginning to experience what "we" have experienced all along. Many have turned to the African American community for support. A black person knows far to well what its like to be racially profiled. I guess the Arabs are discovering that now, huh?
[This message has been edited by homeylu (edited 18 July 2004).] IP: Logged |
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homeylu Member Posts: 393 |
posted 18 July 2004 09:43 AM
Oh, and another thing if you are speaking about the Hamitic MYTH, once Black Americans learned to read the Bible for themselves, they knew that no where written did it say all Blacks should be slaves. Which is my point, people need to stop twisting the logic of religious text to justify immoral behavior. American slavery was for economical reasons not for religious reasons! IP: Logged |
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Amun Member Posts: 330 |
posted 18 July 2004 11:54 AM
quote: American slavery was indeed for economic purposes but the moral justification came from the bible.
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Amun Member Posts: 330 |
posted 18 July 2004 12:22 PM
quote: We're talking about a completely different time period. BTW, wasn't Joseph quite old when he married Mary, the mother of Jesus, who was just barely a teenager? There was nothing unusual about that kind of relationship in those times.
quote: People from every race and culture do this kind of thing. Americans go to southeast Asia and south America to have sex with chidren. There are people in Africa who think they can be cured of AIDS by having sex with virgins. There are sickos everywhere and they will find places where they can behave how they wish.
quote: I have yet to see anybody prove that pedophilia is legal in Saudi Arabia... IP: Logged |
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Mokoo Member Posts: 195 |
posted 18 July 2004 01:16 PM
Kimo you get hung up on salvery and kept going on and on about it while you failed to answer the most impotant interesting part of "homely"'s posting, and who are you calling African Americans anyway...I know I'm not one...Be a stud and answer this ...
[This message has been edited by Mokoo (edited 18 July 2004).] IP: Logged |
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Mokoo Member Posts: 195 |
posted 18 July 2004 01:23 PM
homeylu....you really impress me....Thank god for people like you on this forum...so knowledgeable...I agree with every word your posting...100% quote: [This message has been edited by Mokoo (edited 18 July 2004).] IP: Logged |
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Undead Member Posts: 235 |
posted 18 July 2004 02:26 PM
ensa [This message has been edited by Undead (edited 18 July 2004).] IP: Logged |
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kimo_the_maniac Member Posts: 614 |
posted 18 July 2004 03:34 PM
quote: [This message has been edited by Mokoo (edited 18 July 2004).][/B][/QUOTE] Well I think I replied to that before. Anyway here we go again: Maybe that's true (haven't heard of it before), but so what that's what everyone of every religion did at that time: Marry young because they die young. And if you are asking do Saudis marry girls after their first period, then the answer is an unqualified NO. I bet some of them marry very early (below 18) but that's hardly a rule. I read an article that said women in Oman are now marrying very late because the economics of marriage are making an early marriage impossible (sounds familiar, same as Egypt). So you see, once again: They are mostly normal people despite what Hollywood has taught you! IP: Logged |
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kimo_the_maniac Member Posts: 614 |
posted 18 July 2004 03:36 PM
Just to wrap it up: People in the Gulf have many problems, and their society is hardly a model society, but they are not what western media tries to make them sound like either. They are not systematic paedophiles, they don't own Black slaves, and they are not sexual deviants as a rule. IP: Logged |
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Mokoo Member Posts: 195 |
posted 18 July 2004 03:46 PM
quote: I really could care less about the second part of your answer...let's focus on the first part.....where did you get that from....what are your resources....That's why I basically asked you again, because answers of "I think,I remember and may be" are not really valid in such serious topics...People die every day because of these beliefs, this is not "The Meal of the Day" T.V show. I never post anything on this board without resources /references/proofs/books/page numbers/chapters...where are yours??? [This message has been edited by Mokoo (edited 18 July 2004).] IP: Logged |
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kimo_the_maniac Member Posts: 614 |
posted 18 July 2004 03:55 PM
quote: I couldn't care less about what you say anywhere!!! Didn't I tell you toz feek. And are you joking about chapters/references/blah blah. How much time do you devote to this exactly? You guys have issues. IP: Logged |
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Carleen Member Posts: 158 |
posted 18 July 2004 05:16 PM
quote: No Kimo, race isn't something we "choose". But when you consider how oppressed & maligned people of African descent have been (and still are), when we can achieve great things *in spite* of that, I think that's something to be proud of. IP: Logged |
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Undead Member Posts: 235 |
posted 18 July 2004 05:35 PM
Traditions that persist in the region establish that people were considered adults at age 13 and able to marry shortly after. The bar mitzvah and bat mitzvah, for example. Being seen as a young adult was not so much because people died young, but because the signs of puberty were apparent, and thus the people in question were no longer seen as children. IP: Logged |
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homeylu Member Posts: 393 |
posted 18 July 2004 07:41 PM
quote: Amun AKA Neo*Geo (Yeah I know it's you, your blackplanet page, gave you away, lol) The point is, no matter if its Catholic Priests, Saudi Pedophilias, or South Africans, the world will have to speak out against this type of behavior and not allow people to use religion to justify this. I don't give a damn what ethnic group in society is doing it. BTW, there is no real scientific evidence that Mary and Joseph really existed, so we don't REALLY know their ages (remember those stories could just be jewish "folklore", isn't that what you said in another forum-did you forget?, I'll be happy to quote you on it" lol) but we do know about Muhammad and the 9 year old. Just for the fun of it
quote: Why do you have a new account Amun aka Neo*geo, ROFLOL
quote: LOL And just because I can be a B*tch sometimes....from the AE thread, About your interests in AE Originally posted by Neo*geo quote: LMAO, IP: Logged |
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supercar Member Posts: 549 |
posted 18 July 2004 07:46 PM
quote: Kimo_the_maniac, before you make serious and layperson remarks such as the ones above, you might want to do some thorough research first. The so called black slave owners are actually working under the auspices of Western coorporations to reap benefits of "cheap laber". Here is an excerpt from World Socialist website (formed by a group of independent lettered journalists): "Although there may be a superficial resemblance to the African slave trade of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, the driving forces behind this modern form of slavery are entirely new. The roots of today's slave trade are to be discovered in the way that capitalism has developed in Africa during the last few decades. The conditions of extreme poverty in Sub-Saharan Africa have attracted transnational corporations (TNCs), which can profit from Africa's rich mineral resources and other primary products by exploiting the plentiful cheap labour needed to produce and process them. The TNCs are able to sell these products in Europe and America for many times more than they cost to produce. They are aided in this enterprise by the corrupt regimes in many African countries, which are often dominated by the military and kept in power thanks to the backing they receive from the West. The disastrous impact of IMF policies on Sub-Saharan Africa is also a major factor leading to a resurgence of the traffic in child slaves. Many of the countries expend far more in debt repayments than they do on health and education, in spite of all the fanfare about “debt cancellation”. There is also a thin layer of elite Africans who acquire unpaid servants to work in their houses. Countries in the front line of this trade include Benin, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Côte d'Ivoire, Gabon, Nigeria and Togo. Traders say girls from Benin and Togo are particularly in demand by wealthy families in Lagos, in Nigeria, and in Libreville, in Gabon. Other children are taken from as far away as Banui in the Central Africa Republic. Children from Banui are said to be in high demand in Cameroon. In one instance, in July 1997, the Benin authorities found 400 children aboard a boat anchored in Cotonou harbour, the site of an historic slaving market. Benin police arrested five West Africans preparing to ship them to Gabon. The police said the children, some aged only eight, had been bought from families for the equivalent of about $30. The arrest of these particular slave traders is the exception, however, not the rule. To supply the need for child slaves, traffickers pay the fares, including food for the children during their journey, as well as bribes to ensure the collaboration of border guards. They then recoup this money from the profits arising from the child's labour in their destination country. Often, the parents of those being sold are told their children may have the chance to become rich in another country. Once at their final destination, however, the children receive no money at all.
Here's another eye opening excerpt from the same website: "A Central Intelligence Agency report leaked to the New York Times describes a flourishing trade in slave labor that brings some 50,000 women and children into the United States every year to serve as prostitutes, domestic servants or bonded workers. The report estimates that the number of slave laborers imported into the US from around the world has grown rapidly over the past decade, and predicts their ranks will continue to increase. The scale of human misery indicated in the report is difficult to quantify: women and children from Asia, Africa, Latin America and Eastern Europe lured to the US with promises of jobs and educational opportunities, only to be forced at gunpoint to work in brothels or sweatshops, or labor as domestics. Others, born into unspeakable poverty, are sold into bondage by their parents. The report, entitled “International Trafficking in Women to the United States: a Contemporary Manifestation of Slavery,” reveals not only the growth of slavery alongside staggering levels of wealth for those at the top, but a political and legal system which is indifferent to the problem. The very fact that the report had to be leaked to reach the light of day is indicative of this indifference. The agency study was completed last November and circulated within the government. It is not classified, but has never been released. According to the Times, which published an account of the report on April 2, the newspaper was provided a copy by a government official “who wanted the report's findings publicized.” The spread of slave labor, estimated by the CIA to involve 700,000 to 2 million women and children a year, coincides with growing poverty and social inequality on a global scale. The US, in the midst of a record boom in profits and share values on Wall Street, is not exempt from this phenomenon. That such conditions exist in the US is not a new revelation. Over the past five years several cases of groups of foreign workers living under conditions of bondage have been exposed. In 1995, 72 Thai clothing workers were found imprisoned in a Los Angeles sweat shop where they were forced to labor 22 hours a day for 62 cents an hour. Two years ago a slave-labor ring was discovered in the Jackson Heights section of Queens, New York. In all, 57 Mexican deaf mutes were forced to labor from dawn to midnight, selling $1 trinkets on the subways and at New York's airports. But outside of some well-publicized statements from the Clinton administration deploring the international slave trade, and the establishment of a federal task force on the enslavement of women headed by Attorney General Janet Reno, virtually nothing has been done. The token character of the task force is indicated by the Times' description of its activities. It meets every two or three months and sponsors training seminars for law-enforcement personnel. Beyond this, the Justice Department has set up a “hot line” for victims, which is only staffed during weekday business hours. The CIA report acknowledges that the government's efforts are fragmented and ineffectual. A number of federal agencies have jurisdiction, including the FBI, the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), the Department of Labor and the State Department, but none of them consider prosecuting trafficking of women and children as a “desirable” assignment, because “investigating trafficking and slavery cases is arduous” and “unrewarding.” The INS noted in an internal assessment last fall that agents had found 250 brothels in 26 cities that appeared to be holding trafficking victims. When such brothels are raided, according to the Times article, immigration officers generally move to deport the victims, while their captors are rarely prosecuted. In the few cases where traffickers have been convicted, the penalties have been light." Yet another excerpt: "There are “more slaves alive today than all the people stolen from Africa in the time of the transatlantic slave trade,”writes Kevin Bales. He estimates there are more than 27 million people “enslaved by violence and held against their wills for purposes of exploitation” and the number is increasing. A feature of the new slavery is that slaves become disposable once the slaveholder has used them. Although officially illegal in every country, a new form of slavery is arising because of globalisation, Bales explains. Transnational companies switch their production to subsidiaries and subcontractors in the developing world and “take advantage of slave labour to improve their bottom line and increase dividends to their shareholders”. NEED I GO ON?...concerning your ridiculous argument that Black Americans should some how criticize "Black" slave masters and traders. You have to look at the root of problem, not just the people who are involved in it. Certainly, the conditions that have encouraged this evil, are not "African" inventions. Let's stick to the issue at hand about "Gulf arabs being sodomites". If you want to argue this, fine! But don't you blame Black Africans or African Americans for these views of Gulf Arabs! If Gulf Arabs have this reputation in Arabic speaking countries, it must be because of how the fellow citizens of the "victims" feel about they way they've been, and perhaps are still, treated by Gulf Arabs, be it in Asia or Africa. Here are the websites I sited the above quotes from: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/apr2001/slav-a19.shtml [This message has been edited by supercar (edited 18 July 2004).] IP: Logged |
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homeylu Member Posts: 393 |
posted 18 July 2004 08:02 PM
originally posted by Supercar quote: How anyone can try to defend the Saudi government is beyond me anyway. "They" along with the Bush cabinet, and Israel government, are some of the most CORRUPT government officials I know. None of them give a damn about the average citizen in their countries, its all about selfishness and greed. We are not attacking "Arabs", just the corrupt governments. In my opinion Bush and the Suadis instrumented 9/11 so the rest of the world would be fighting with eachother over petty things, while "the powers that be" laugh all the way to the bank, with their 12 year old virgin sex slaves, in arms. IP: Logged |
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supercar Member Posts: 549 |
posted 18 July 2004 08:59 PM
quote: Thoughtful observation of slavery in Africa. But this was more so the case in remote history, or limited to tiny rural and somewhat isolated societies within African continent. As you correctly put it, those were not "forced" economic, cultural or religious inspired slavery, as we know the term today. However, "publicized" slavery events in Africa, are mainly the product of economical reasons forced on Africans from "outside" developments, as opposed to being the result of a tradition "invented" within the continent. Kimo's observation seems to hint to the latter, rather than reality. As I pointed out earlier, African exploitive slave trade is the result of policies adopted by Transnational Corporations, IMF Bank, WTO, and the so-called G8 government members. Apart from child prostitution, the idea of "phedophilia" being somehow compared to slaverly as the product of economic institution would be a miscontrued thought. Therefore, an attempt to compare Arab "phedophilia" to "slavery" in Africa, is a weak attempt to label African "slavery" as product of culture, so as to win an argument that stereotyping is wrong! IP: Logged |
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sonomod Member Posts: 55 |
posted 18 July 2004 09:41 PM
quote: http://www.ecpatusa.org/travel_tourism.asp Look for this: In 1994, the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act (Crime Bill) was signed into U.S. law. Under this law, it is illegal for a U.S. citizen to travel overseas with the intent to engage in sexual acts with a minor. Few Americans know this law exists. To be effective, it must be made known to the American public.
How about after Dateline, MSNBC, CNN, Today Show and many thousands of local newstations, local and national newspapers do exposes on this law since American business rely so heavily on the global economy. Not yet a hundred Americans have been prosecuted for this yet, but a nasty dentist from Ohio was profiled on Dateline to his extreme embarrasment. Now do European countries have a similar law? Now look to the left hand column of that weblink, thats right about the child porn stuff, USA and Germany has worked very hard over the last decade to pound the living **** out of the industry. Now who can do any better? IP: Logged |
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sonomod Member Posts: 55 |
posted 18 July 2004 09:46 PM
quote: http://www.ecpatusa.org/travel_tourism.asp Look for this: In 1994, the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act (Crime Bill) was signed into U.S. law. Under this law, it is illegal for a U.S. citizen to travel overseas with the intent to engage in sexual acts with a minor. Few Americans know this law exists. To be effective, it must be made known to the American public.
How about after Dateline, MSNBC, CNN, Today Show and many thousands of local newstations, local and national newspapers do exposes on this law since American business rely so heavily on the global economy. Not yet a hundred Americans have been prosecuted for this yet, but a nasty dentist from Ohio was profiled on Dateline to his extreme embarrasment. Now do European countries have a similar law? Now look to the left hand column of that weblink, thats right about the child porn stuff, USA and Germany has worked very hard over the last decade to pound the living **** out of the industry. Now who can do any better? oh and by the way... I hate generalizations. I really have a hard time believing pedophilia is normal and acceptable behavior in any culture. - Amun IP: Logged |
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Amun Member Posts: 330 |
posted 18 July 2004 10:20 PM
quote: Congrats on stating the obvious. As if I took great pains to hide my identity. You're about 4 months late with this discovery. Welcome to egyptsearch newbie. Most people have figured this out by the similar writing styles and opinions.
quote: That's a shame and I'm not going to defend the Saudi government's human rights record(since it's pretty indefensible). As corrupt as the Saudi gov't is, it still hasn't been proven that pedophila is anything but taboo in Saudi culture. Are there pedophiles in Saudi Arabia? Without a doubt. Are Saudis generally pedophiles? No and that's the basis of my argument.
quote: No disagreement here.
quote: Regardless of whether Mary and Jospeh existed or not, the point is(and you always miss the point) that that kind of relationship wasn't uncommon in the ancient middle east. I'm against judging people in ancient times by 21st century values. It's just unfair because times were too different. Just look at how much cultural change has happened in western society over the past 200 years. Less than 200 years ago it was normal for human beings to own other human beings in the West. Human nature remains the same throughout history but social norms change.
quote: As you can see from my blackplanet.com page, I don't impersonate anyone. I made that info available because I have nothing to hide. All I got is my word and my ***** and I don't break those for anyone. I post under different names depending on which computer I use since I save my password to my browser. IP: Logged |
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supercar Member Posts: 549 |
posted 18 July 2004 11:20 PM
quote: Well said! IP: Logged |
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ausar Moderator Posts: 2117 |
posted 18 July 2004 11:42 PM
Actually, in ancient soceities people would often marry very young at least 14 years old in AE soceity. Many times in the case of Mohammed marriage to Aisha might just to tie the family togther since Aisha was Abu Bakr's daughter. I h,ave no idea if Mohammed had sex with Aisha,and I believe if he did there might be a Hadith out there that says it. Neither a Muslim nor care for Islam,but occasionaly do read Hadiths. Even the Hadiths are sometimes corrupted by the interpretation since most were written down many years after Mohammed's death.
You know Ayazid posted this from another message board but has yet to comment on anything. I personally believe Ayazid posted this to start trouble on this board or a flame war. So let's hear from you Ayazaid.
[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 21 July 2004).] IP: Logged |
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supercar Member Posts: 549 |
posted 18 July 2004 11:43 PM
quote: Where did you hear such a dumb thing! What facts have prompted you to say "there are people in Africa who think they can be cured of AIDS by having sex with virgins"? The same could probably be said about Americans, considering the spread of AIDS. Have you even been to much of Africa, aside from your trip to Egypt? [This message has been edited by supercar (edited 18 July 2004).] IP: Logged |
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Amun Member Posts: 330 |
posted 19 July 2004 12:03 AM
quote: "The myth that sex with a virgin is a cure for HIV/AIDS is one of many that make the fight against an epidemic that has struck 40 million people worldwide -- nearly two-thirds of them in sub-Saharan Africa -- even more difficult." This 'thing' is dumb indeed but it's a reality for some. Be sure to do some fact checking next time you want to bash the message... [This message has been edited by Amun (edited 19 July 2004).] IP: Logged |
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ausar Moderator Posts: 2117 |
posted 19 July 2004 12:08 AM
Supercar,what Amun said about some Africans thinking having sex with virgins cures AIDS is true. Rest assured it's not in all African countries but in Southern Africa it's true. It should also be emphasized that in Senegal has one of the lowest AIDS rate in all of Africa. People there have a very low AIDS rate. I have actually been to Western Africa,and the atmosphere in Western Africa is much different than it's in Southern Africa. Africa's a big continent with lots of different people abound. What one African does in one country does not apply to the whole.
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supercar Member Posts: 549 |
posted 19 July 2004 01:31 AM
quote: If for a moment that you think this author is someone who is an expert on African issues, think again. For instance, he states, " But perhaps the biggest myth remains the belief that AIDS can be cured or that it always happens to someone else." I would say this is a common myth even in Western nations! Here is another one: "The myths are very powerful but they believe them. They also think it’s a disease of their parents’ generation, that it is a white, foreign disease or that there are some kind of pills that can protect you.” Isn't it a common belief in the West, that AIDS is of African Origin or that it is mainly an African problem when in fact, AIDS is very prevalent in their own societies? If an uncle rapes his niece, we have to take the words of such a person as being sane? Your statement of "generalizing" Africans as believing "The myth that sex with a virgin is a cure for HIV/AIDS", is just ridiculous. What is even more ridiculous, is to use some western journalist as an expert of African traditions. Sure there are myths regarding AIDS, but these aren't much different from those found in the West! [This message has been edited by supercar (edited 19 July 2004).] IP: Logged |
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dajjal supreme Member Posts: 166 |
posted 19 July 2004 02:14 AM
quote: Why whenever you're proven wrong you cover your crap with more BS? Stop twisting the the words of others, people on this board are capable of reading you know. IP: Logged |
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supercar Member Posts: 549 |
posted 19 July 2004 02:23 AM
quote: Who proved me wrong and how? With a reference, I am supposed to take wholeheartedly as fact? You are the one full of crap, always attacking people when you have nothing worthwhile to say. Instead of coming up with facts or well thought out statements to show me why I am wrong, you just start your usual childish name calling and nonsense. Obviously you are incapable of reading, to come to the conclusion that I have twisted someone's words! [This message has been edited by supercar (edited 19 July 2004).] IP: Logged |
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Natashiah Member Posts: 208 |
posted 19 July 2004 03:16 AM
quote:
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Natashiah Member Posts: 208 |
posted 19 July 2004 03:31 AM
quote: To add to that...go to the following and see for yourself.It happened,it still does and it makes me sick. IP: Logged |
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Natashiah Member Posts: 208 |
posted 19 July 2004 03:36 AM
Or if you want detailed info go to the following search engine www.aardvark.co.za type in "infant rape" but make sure your search is under africa....and you will know more then you ever wanted to know. Just dont eat before attempting to search...you might want to vomit! IP: Logged |
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supercar Member Posts: 549 |
posted 19 July 2004 03:57 AM
quote: I don't know about South African beliefs regarding the rape of infants, but to generalize Africans the way Amun did, is a very futile observation. When mentioning these things, it is best to be specific about who you are talking about. Simply say "there are Africans who believe in so and so" leaves the possibility that it could be Africans from anywhere in the continent. That is just erroneous! Africa is a continent for God sake. It would be like lumping Canadians, Mexicans, and Americans into one big country with no variation in cultures or attitudes! In the same token, Gulf Arabs would just be "Asians". Enough said. [This message has been edited by supercar (edited 19 July 2004).] IP: Logged |
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Natashiah Member Posts: 208 |
posted 19 July 2004 06:04 AM
quote:
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dajjal supreme Member Posts: 166 |
posted 19 July 2004 06:25 AM
quote: What is the point if you will just change what I say? Exactly, no point. IP: Logged |
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Amun Member Posts: 330 |
posted 19 July 2004 07:01 AM
quote: Do a google search on "Aids" "Africa" and "Myths". Hundreds of articles have been written on this from Western and African sources. You are looking foolish by not backing away from your original statement. My original statement was that there are people in Africa who believe in this myth not that Africans in general believe this crap... [This message has been edited by Amun (edited 19 July 2004).] IP: Logged |
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supercar Member Posts: 549 |
posted 19 July 2004 07:06 AM
quote: For the record you are the one who said it is true about South Africans, the belief that AIDS can be cured by having sex with young virgins. You have even attempted to provide me with more references and a search engine. Don't put words in my mouth! In fact, I was trying to refute such a notion, until you tried to back up Amun's claims. Here are your very own words:
quote:
quote: I hope you can read your own quote above, so as to not imply that I have twisted your words. I am not going to give up my arguments simply because you don’t have the audacity to come up with well thought out arguments to refute me or anyone else for that matter. You just go on with childish claims that have no bearing with what is being discussed.
quote: Let us go back to your original statement Amun:
quote: I am not going to back away from my original statement, because I said that you were wrong for saying that Africans had such myths, as you described above. I said that your claim, leaves the possibility for one to conclude that Africans form anywhere in the continent believe in such crap, as you put it. You said , as pointed out above, that there are “people in Africa who think…” Why not be specific, which people are you talking about? You are the one who is looking foolish for trying to stick with your in-discriminatory description of Africans. Had you been specific, that would have made things much clearer. Africans apply to the people of the African continent. You are just lumping everyone into one big country, as if there are no variations in culture or traditions. If Canadians had some weird myth, and I simply stated that there are people in America who believed in so and so myth. The first reaction by U.S. citizens would be who am I referring to, because they aren’t familiar with such a myth (which really happens to be prevalent in Canada). And even for South Africans, as Natashiah later on back tracked from her initial attempts to associate them with the myths, not all had such a belief! It is not like it is a tradition, but rather some uneducated observation by people who have not fully grasp the epidemic proportions of AIDS growth. It is likely that these people, for the most part, have not accessed middle education or higher education. Even still, myths will occur about AIDS, just as they do in the more affluent nations. [This message has been edited by supercar (edited 19 July 2004).] IP: Logged |
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Natashiah Member Posts: 208 |
posted 19 July 2004 07:28 AM
quote: Let me rephrase that...some South Africans think raping infants can cure Aids...!Sorry for the misunderstanding.But yes it is true...but its some south africans...not all of them. IP: Logged |
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Amun Member Posts: 330 |
posted 19 July 2004 08:06 AM
quote: There is a strong possibility that this belief can be found in other parts of Africa since it has also appeared in places outside Africa. The reason South Africa is cited most in discussions about infant rape is because it happens so much there. Anyone who can read and comprehend knows that I certainly wasn't saying all Africans engage in that kind of behavior.
quote: All I did was make a comment about a myth that some Africans believe in. It's wasn't a loaded statement and it isn't false. I certainly wasn't trying to be political. IP: Logged |
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supercar Member Posts: 549 |
posted 19 July 2004 09:23 AM
quote: Name other African countries in Western Africa, Central or Northern Africa who have the same belief as you stated. Here you are making generalizations again, only to back track when brought to light. I have yet to hear that any of the areas I mentioned have infant rapes, just so people can protect themselves from AIDS. This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard! Obviously you have a hard time reading. It shows through your writing. How can you make such an unspecified description in your statement and expect the layperson, particularly people who don't know much about Africa or its people much less have been to the continent, to just come to the conclusion that you weren't referring to all Africans. My point was that, your unspecified description could mean that, people from "anywhere" in Africa harbor such belief. This would certainly be incorrect. You have the layperson guessing which parts of Africa have this belief. Some might just believe that it is widespread throughout the entire continent, which is also another incorrect observation. My example using Canada, has obviously been lost on you! You only rely on newspapers to acquire your knowledge about Africans. Have you gone to various African nation states, and stay long enough to figure out their beliefs or traditions? Because if you have, I doubt you would make a comment like the one you did.
quote: You may not be sensitive to your comments, because in your mind Africans are just one big family with no cultural variations, values or traditions. It is like me lumping the entire people of North America into one. So which means, if there is a Mexican myth, I can simply comment on it as belief "some" Americans harbor. This may not be of significance to like minded people such as yourself, but I bet there will be U.S. citizens who would object to such a description. This is not because they merely feel that they are better than Mexicans, but that they have distinct culture from Mexicans. Yes, Africans share some cultural values, but this should not to be mistaken to mean that they aren't distinct from one another. When approaching African issues, it is best not to use the mentality that it is one big country with no cultural variation. This is a continent we are talking about! IP: Logged |
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homeylu Member Posts: 393 |
posted 19 July 2004 09:39 AM
Originally posted by Amun aka Neo*geo quote: Neo, Amun, whoever you come back as, you are funny. I've only been on ES 3 months and even I know, you can have your forgotten password e-mailed to you, you mean and "oldie" like yourself was not aware of this. The personalities ARE NOT the same, that's the reason I called you out. Amun-use the Bible to argue a point Where's the similarity? You are always accusing me of being the same person as Wally because our "style" is the same, but yet you seem to have your own alter ego. On this thread you're antagonizing Ausar's statements, on AE, you follow him around agreeing with his every word as if it's your lifeline, you're hilarious. But for the record, there is nothing in the Bible that claims these young ages you speak of. If one were to take the Bible literally, you would think people were marrying at 376 years old and still having kids. That's the point-it can't be taken literally, no one lives that long!! Yet there are Islamic fundamentalist that try to model their lives after verses written 2,000 years ago, some of those countries model the state laws based on the Islamic faith- like polygamy, for instance. Wearing the veil, blah, blah, blah, when you question them on something the first thing they say is, it's in the Koran. Well, if they "molest" a child, some extremists may use this to justify his acts by claiming its in the koran, the prophet did it. THAT"S MY POINT!!! GET IT??????? STOP USING 2,000 year old religions to justify things, we are not in the dark ages anymore, times have changed, people have changed. IP: Logged |
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homeylu Member Posts: 393 |
posted 19 July 2004 09:54 AM
Supercar, you are debating with Neo*geo, enough said.  IP: Logged |
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Mokoo Member Posts: 195 |
posted 19 July 2004 09:55 AM
quote:
1- قصة زواج الطفلة عائشة
حدثني فروة بن أبي المغراء حدثنا علي بن مسهر عن هشام عن أبيه عن عائشة رضي الله عنها قالت تزوجني النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وأنا بنت ست سنين فقدمنا المدينة فنزلنا في بني الحارث بن خزرج فوعكت فتمرق شعري فوفى جميمة فأتتني أمي أم رومان وإني لفي أرجوحة ومعي صواحب لي فصرخت بي فأتيتها لا أدري ما تريد بي فأخذت بيدي حتى أوقفتني على باب الدار وإني لأنهج حتى سكن بعض نفسي ثم أخذت شيئا من ماء فمسحت به وجهي ورأسي ثم أدخلتني الدار فإذا نسوة من الأنصار في البيت فقلن على الخير والبركة وعلى خير طائر فأسلمتني إليهن فأصلحن من شأني فلم يرعني إلا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ضحى فأسلمتني إليه وأنا يومئذ بنت تسع سنين صحيح البخاري .. كتاب المناقب .. باب تزويج النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم عائشة و قدومها المدينة
صحيح البخاري .. كتاب النكاح .. باب انكاح الرجل ولده الصغار
4] Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. وَاللَّائِي يَئِسْنَ مِنَ الْمَحِيضِ مِنْ نِسَائِكُمْ إِنِ ارْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلَاثَةُ أَشْهُرٍ وَاللَّائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ وَأُولَاتُ الْأَحْمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَنْ يَضَعْنَ حَمْلَهُنَّ وَمَنْ يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يَجْعَلْ لَهُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ يُسْرًا (الطلاق 4).
يَقُول تَعَالَى مُبَيِّنًا لِعِدَّةِ الْآيِسَة وَهِيَ الَّتِي قَدْ اِنْقَطَعَ عَنْهَا الْمَحِيض لِكِبَرِهَا أَنَّهَا ثَلَاثَة أَشْهُر عِوَضًا عَنْ الثَّلَاثَة قُرُوء فِي حَقّ مَنْ تَحِيض كَمَا دَلَّتْ عَلَى ذَلِكَ آيَة الْبَقَرَة وَكَذَا الصِّغَار اللَّائِي لَمْ يَبْلُغْنَ سِنّ الْحَيْض أَنَّ عِدَّتَهُنَّ كَعِدَّةِ الْآيِسَة ثَلَاثَة أَشْهُر وَلِهَذَا قَالَ تَعَالَى " وَاَللَّائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ ". عَنْ أَبِي كُرَيْب وَأَبِي السَّائِب قَالَا ثَنَا اِبْن إِدْرِيس أَنَا مُطَرِّف عَنْ عَمْرو بْن سَالِم قَالَ : قَالَ أُبَيّ بْن كَعْب يَا رَسُول اللَّه إِنَّ عِدَدًا مِنْ عِدَد النِّسَاء لَمْ تُذْكَر فِي الْكِتَاب : الصِّغَار وَالْكِبَار وَأُولَات الْأَحْمَال قَالَ فَأَنْزَلَ اللَّه عَزَّ وَجَلَّ " وَاَللَّائِي يَئِسْنَ مِنْ الْمَحِيض مِنْ نِسَائِكُمْ إِنْ اِرْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلَاثَة أَشْهُر وَاَللَّائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ وَأُولَات الْأَحْمَال أَجَلهنَّ أَنْ يَضَعْنَ حَمْلَهُنَّ " . وَرَوَاهُ اِبْن أَبِي حَاتِم بِأَبْسَط مِنْ هَذَا السِّيَاق فَقَالَ : ثَنَا أَبِي ثَنَا يَحْيَى بْن الْمُغِيرَة أَنَا جَرِير عَنْ مُطَرِّف عَنْ عُمَر بْن سَالِم عَنْ أُبَيّ بْن كَعْب قَالَ : قُلْت لِرَسُولِ اللَّه صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ إِنَّ نَاسًا مِنْ أَهْل الْمَدِينَة لَمَّا أُنْزِلَتْ هَذِهِ الْآيَة الَّتِي فِي الْبَقَرَة فِي عِدَّة النِّسَاء قَالُوا لَقَدْ بَقِيَ مِنْ عِدَّة النِّسَاء وَلَمْ يُذْكَرْنَ فِي الْقُرْآن : الصِّغَار وَالْكِبَار اللَّائِي قَدْ اِنْقَطَعَ مِنْهُنَّ الْحَيْض وَذَوَات الْحَمْل قَالَ فَأُنْزِلَتْ الَّتِي فِي النِّسَاء الْقُصْرَى " وَاَللَّائِي يَئِسْنَ مِنْ الْمَحِيض مِنْ نِسَائِكُمْ إِنْ اِرْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلَاثَة أَشْهُر وَاَللَّائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ " راجع تفسير ابن كثير (تفسير القرآن العظيم) 4- راجع تفسير القرطبي (الجامع لأحكام القرآن): 5- صحيح البخاري .. كتاب النكاح .. باب إنكاح الرجل ولده الصغار: راجع أيضا تفسير الطبري (جامع البيان في تأويل القرآن) و تفسير البيضاوي (أنوار التنزيل و أسرار التأويل) و تفسير النسفي (مدارك التنزيل و حقائق التأويل) و أسباب النزول للواحدي
المشهور الاقوى جواز وطء الزوجة دبرا على كراهية شديدة ، و الاحوط تركه خصوصا مع عدم رضاها . تحرير الوسيلة للإمام لروح الله الموسوي الخميني .. كتاب النكاح .. كتاب النكاح مسألة 11.
لا يجوز وطء الزوجة قبل إكمال تسع سنين ، دواما كان النكاح أو منقطعا ، و أما سائر الاستمتاعات كاللمس بشهوة و الضم و التفخيذ فلا بأس بها حتى فى الرضيعة ، و لو وطأها قبل التسع و لم يفضها لم يترتب عليه شىء غير الاثم على الاقوى ، و إن أفضاها بأن جعل مسلكى البول و الحيض واحدا أو مسلكى الحيض و الغائط واحدا حرم عليه وطؤها أبدا لكن على الاحوط فى الصورة الثانية ، و على أي حال لم تخرج عن زوجيته على الاقوى ، فيجري عليها أحكامها من التوارث و حرمة الخامسة و حرمة أختها معها و غيرها ، و يجب عليه نفقتها مادامت حية و إن طلقها بل و إن تزوجت بعد الطلاق على الاحوط ، بل لا يخلو من قوة ، و يجب عليه دية الافضاء ، و هى دية النفس ، فإذا كانت حرة فلها نصف دية الرجل مضافا إلى المهر الذي استحقته بالعقد و الدخول ، و لو دخل بزوجته بعد إكمال التسع فأفضاها لم تحرم عليه و لم تثبت الدية ، و لكن الاحوط الانفاق عليها مادامت حية و إن كان الاقوى عدم الوجوب . 7-
حدثنا يحيى بن يحيى ويحيى بن أيوب وقتيبة وابن حجر قال يحيى بن يحيى أخبرنا و قال الآخرون حدثنا إسمعيل يعنون ابن جعفر عن محمد بن أبي حرملة عن عطاء وسليمان ابني يسار وأبي سلمة بن عبد الرحمن أن عائشة قالت كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم مضطجعا في بيتي كاشفا عن فخذيه أو ساقيه فاستأذن أبو بكر فأذن له وهو على تلك الحال فتحدث ثم استأذن عمر فأذن له وهو كذلك فتحدث ثم استأذن عثمان فجلس رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وسوى ثيابه قال محمد ولا أقول ذلك في يوم واحد فدخل فتحدث فلما خرج قالت عائشة دخل أبو بكر فلم تهتش له ولم تباله ثم دخل عمر فلم تهتش له ولم تباله ثم دخل عثمان فجلست وسويت ثيابك فقال ألا أستحي من رجل تستحي منه الملائكة.
حدثنا عبد الملك بن شعيب بن الليث بن سعد حدثني أبي عن جدي حدثني عقيل بن خالد عن ابن شهاب عن يحيى بن سعيد بن العاص أن سعيد بن العاص أخبره أن عائشة زوج النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وعثمان حدثاه أن أبا بكر استأذن على رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وهو مضطجع على فراشه لابس مرط عائشة فأذن لأبي بكر وهو كذلك فقضى إليه حاجته ثم انصرف ثم استأذن عمر فأذن له وهو على تلك الحال فقضى إليه حاجته ثم انصرف قال عثمان ثم استأذنت عليه فجلس وقال لعائشة اجمعي عليك ثيابك فقضيت إليه حاجتي ثم انصرفت فقالت عائشة يا رسول الله مالي لم أرك فزعت لأبي بكر وعمر رضي الله عنهما كما فزعت لعثمان قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم إن عثمان رجل حيي وإني خشيت إن أذنت له على تلك الحال أن لا يبلغ إلي في حاجته.
8- حدثنا إسماعيل قال حدثني أخي عن سليمان عن هشام بن عروة عن أبيه عن عائشة رضي الله عنها أن نساء رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم كن حزبين فحزب فيه عائشة وحفصة وصفية وسودة والحزب الآخر أم سلمة وسائر نساء رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وكان المسلمون قد علموا حب رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم عائشة فإذا كانت عند أحدهم هدية يريد أن يهديها إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أخرها حتى إذا كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم في بيت عائشة بعث صاحب الهدية بها إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم في بيت عائشة فكلم حزب أم سلمة فقلن لها كلمي رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يكلم الناس فيقول من أراد أن يهدي إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم هدية فليهده إليه حيث كان من بيوت نسائه فكلمته أم سلمة بما قلن فلم يقل لها شيئا فسألنها فقالت ما قال لي شيئا فقلن لها فكلميه قالت فكلمته حين دار إليها أيضا فلم يقل لها شيئا فسألنها فقالت ما قال لي شيئا فقلن لها كلميه حتى يكلمك فدار إليها فكلمته فقال لها لا تؤذيني في عائشة فإن الوحي لم يأتني وأنا في ثوب امرأة إلا عائشة قالت فقالت أتوب إلى الله من أذاك يا رسول الله ثم إنهن دعون فاطمة بنت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فأرسلت إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم تقول إن نساءك ينشدنك الله العدل في بنت أبي بكر فكلمته فقال يا بنية ألا تحبين ما أحب قالت بلى فرجعت إليهن فأخبرتهن فقلن ارجعي إليه فأبت أن ترجع فأرسلن زينب بنت جحش فأتته فأغلظت وقالت إن نساءك ينشدنك الله العدل في بنت ابن أبي قحافة فرفعت صوتها حتى تناولت عائشة وهي قاعدة فسبتها حتى إن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم لينظر إلى عائشة هل تكلم قال فتكلمت عائشة ترد على زينب حتى أسكتتها قالت فنظر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم إلى عائشة وقال إنها بنت أبي بكر
9- حدثنا عبد الله بن عبد الوهاب حدثنا حماد حدثنا هشام عن أبيه قال كان الناس يتحرون بهداياهم يوم عائشة قالت عائشة فاجتمع صواحبي إلى أم سلمة فقلن يا أم سلمة والله إن الناس يتحرون بهداياهم يوم عائشة وإنا نريد الخير كما تريده عائشة فمري رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أن يأمر الناس أن يهدوا إليه حيث ما كان أو حيث ما دار قالت فذكرت ذلك أم سلمة للنبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قالت فأعرض عني فلما عاد إلي ذكرت له ذاك فأعرض عني فلما كان في الثالثة ذكرت له فقال يا أم سلمة لا تؤذيني في عائشة فإنه والله ما نزل علي الوحي وأنا في لحاف امرأة منكن غيرها. صحيح البخاري .. كتاب المناقب .. فضل عائشة رضي الله عنها Enough for now....my hands are tired...
[This message has been edited by Mokoo (edited 19 July 2004).] IP: Logged |
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supercar Member Posts: 549 |
posted 19 July 2004 10:07 AM
quote: I know! But even for the likes of Neo*geo, you can't allow them to get away with certain accusations. IP: Logged |
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Amun Member Posts: 330 |
posted 19 July 2004 10:37 AM
quote: It's a shame you have to lie to prove your point. I never said the bible couldn't be used to make an argument. Here's my exact statement: "The Bible is right about many things but to take it literally or as unquestionable history is stretching its value." Keeping things in context, I recognized that the bible is inaccurate on many things, however I did not say it couldn't be used in an argument. I believe the bible has some historical value. Don't make a fool of yourself trying to out-wit me.
quote: Ausar has been aware that I use two names for quite a while. We talk outside of these forums. I stand by what I said about generalizations. As a black American I deal with enough generalizations and stereotypes and I refuse to treat others the same way.
[This message has been edited by Amun (edited 19 July 2004).] IP: Logged |
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Amun Member Posts: 330 |
posted 19 July 2004 10:51 AM
quote: Your whole argument is deeply flawed because you have yet to seperate indivuals from entire ethnic groups or nations. Nations have borders, individuals don't. They migrate and bring both good and bad behavior with them. Hence, it can and does happen outside of South Africa, and in Europe, and in Asia. Maybe I used the wrong word. Instead of saying some "people" in Africa I should have said some "individuals" in Africa to be more concise. Either way, you seem to be the only person making generalizations and an ass out of yourself trying not to admit that you were wrong. IP: Logged |
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supercar Member Posts: 549 |
posted 19 July 2004 12:07 PM
quote:
[This message has been edited by supercar (edited 19 July 2004).] IP: Logged |
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Amun Member Posts: 330 |
posted 19 July 2004 12:23 PM
quote:
quote: Let's see. Did I not admit that I may have used the wrong wording? "Maybe I used the wrong word. Instead of saying some "people" in Africa I should have said some "individuals" in Africa to be more concise." Unlike you I can admit to my mistakes and move on... IP: Logged |
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supercar Member Posts: 549 |
posted 19 July 2004 12:33 PM
quote: Here you go again, claiming to be what you aren't. Knowing fully well, that I am right about your thoughtless comment, all you can say is that I am ranting. You make a donkey look far brighter, when it comes to intelligence. Just hopeless! IP: Logged |
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dajjal supreme Member Posts: 166 |
posted 19 July 2004 12:44 PM
quote: Super car this is the nth person to indicate you're an idiot. I told you a while back that you were a confused individual, numerous other members implied so as well, and Amun won't be the last person to point out your an idiot as long as you keep posting. IP: Logged |
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supercar Member Posts: 549 |
posted 19 July 2004 01:29 PM
quote: You are an established Idiot, and anyone who has participated on this board knows this. You never say anything that relates to the topics being discussed, but all you do is spend the entire day calling people silly names. It is no wonder your ass was REJECTED by NYU. They could tell through your incompetent application process, that they were dealing with an unfit and a mentally retarded individual. Only individuals like yourself, who are messed up in the head, resort to just name calling, rather than putting forward logical arguments. I deal with less than average minded people like yourself as such. You can't simply be ignored, you need to be put in your place! I will gladly make this my task, until you get the mental help you so badly need. IP: Logged |
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