posted 10 January 2005 12:47 AM            

Your profile shows you're a teacher, but where are you from?

Personally I have been through the BCIS/INS immigration experience with our marital petition and have Misryan family who work in the Egyptian consular office in LA and also Egyptian foreign service office in Cairo.

You cannot marry an Egyptian and not file a marital petition with the BCIS/INS, if you did file your marriage with the local authorities in the USA without the marital petition its a major federal offense according to internal Department of Homeland Security policy and the US American Patriots Act.

From there the American government and Egyptian government will do a thorough background check on him and look to see if he is married. Then in the USA he will be charged with Bigamy and about 20 federal offenses. This shows the USA and Egypt government that he might be a terrorist.

Basically if you are married an Egyptian man who is already married and you were married in the USA he will spend at least 25 years in prison.

Hope your husband goes both ways, otherwise prison will not be a pleasant experience.

Oh, yeah I forgot to mention. If you knew he was married even for a day and didn't turn him in, you are breaking several federal laws too. At least women's prison isn't as violent.

posted 10 January 2005 01:22 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by sonomod:
Are you joking?
sonomod: you did not carefully read my paragraph. First of all no where did I state that I was married to an egyptian man! Also, a lot of your info is not accurate. You are giving it from one side only. You seem to have a lot of anger in your speech. many people are researching this subject. first of all in usa most are deported , if proved it was a fraud marriage. Sadly to say most of the american women have no knowledge that these men are married overseas. They come here visiting friends and seeking employment opportunities. There is good and bad all over the world. Right now it is a very big problem people need to sit up and take notice to , protect egyptian women and american women from being taken advantage of and used! You have some info but your a little off base.
You don't have accurate info from what really happens from the american side.
Lighten up a little...........lot of anger you hold. Yours Truly, Jenna
Your profile shows you're a teacher, but where are you from?

Personally I have been through the BCIS/INS immigration experience with our marital petition and have Misryan family who work in the Egyptian consular office in LA and also Egyptian foreign service office in Cairo.

You cannot marry an Egyptian and not file a marital petition with the BCIS/INS, if you did file your marriage with the local authorities in the USA without the marital petition its a major federal offense according to internal Department of Homeland Security policy and the US American Patriots Act.

From there the American government and Egyptian government will do a thorough background check on him and look to see if he is married. Then in the USA he will be charged with Bigamy and about 20 federal offenses. This shows the USA and Egypt government that he might be a terrorist.

Basically if you are married an Egyptian man who is already married and you were married in the USA he will spend at least 25 years in prison.

Hope your husband goes both ways, otherwise prison will not be a pleasant experience.

Oh, yeah I forgot to mention. If you knew he was married even for a day and didn't turn him in, you are breaking several federal laws too. At least women's prison isn't as violent.

---

posted 10 January 2005 01:43 AM            

instead of focusing on me why don't you go to lexusnexus.com and find the actual law dictating that I am off my mark.

And besides it isn't necessarily written law, its whatever BCIS official or Department of Homeland Security official who is assigned to the case at the time. Its their call.

I should really ignore this, because I think you are looking for a online bashing. Trying to poke the new moderators.

There's nothing really of concrete damage you can do to this board.

Its the hackers who posted all the porn. And this specific group that hails around Miss Sajevo, the have intimate knowledge and access to registering and IPs. They can get around the new moderators just fine. I have never been deleted maliciously or emailed garbage by this group.

I kind of looking forward to what they will do next. Possibly use some of your material.

posted 10 January 2005 02:02 AM            

You jump from one subject to the next!

I have the greatest respect for all moderators and all people talking on this forum, be it egyptian, american, whatever nationality.

posted 10 January 2005 02:13 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jenna:
Forgot one important comment to Sonomod:" Wake up and smell the roses"
I reread again your statements where do you come off believing"thorough" background checks are done, here or there.
Especially when they leave egypt they do not fingerprint, do a criminal background check, or a family tree, to see if they have an egyptian wife & kids before they depart. At least visiting visas have been cut two 1 to 2 month stays, and are being monitored more closely.
We all need to look out for each other.

Jenna

---

No? They took my husband's fingerprints twice in 6 months. Interviewed 4 people here in the US who know him intimately.

But most of the hackground checks happened in Egypt. BCIS knew about how a co-owner of a business my husband started in Alex falsely filed tax information on the business. BCIS knew he had been taken to court for civil litigation for breaking a guys nose. The local police didn't file charges because my husband's writing arm was broken and he had been in a major car accident 8 months before and my husband swung a left jab in self-defense. BCIS had his education records from his business courses and medical courses in college, in addition to his attendance. They knew of a failed engagement and checked out whether or not she had entered the USA. Plus about 20 people were questioned at work by Egyptian Military police in Shebin, where my husband family lives. Plus the BCIS knew every registered address of my husband in Egypt. This was particular interest to the BCIS during our interview making sure he didn't still own any flat in Cairo or Alex. He didn't, and they wanted to know who paid for these rental leases. Luckily they also had paperwork on file they my husband had recieved inheritance from two male relatives that feed my husband rare 'independant' lifestyle in Egypt. Not many middle-class young men live away from home even after marriage. So the BCIS had his financial history too.

Later we found out his uncle who is a retired military general sent out officers he had commandered to dig up as much information on him so later when my husband is able all background paperwork is in order for his work in consular activities. Later we learned that many Egyptian husband of Americans are only partially picked at in this fashion.

Sorry to explain this to you but alot of Muslim and Arab residents or citizens alike have volumous files within the government graps. Its the red scare all over again. I have Somali classmates who have spoken with the FBI on various people in just the last 2 years. Maybe its a good thing, maybe it isn't.

posted 10 January 2005 02:19 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jenna:
Sonomod: What? You do not even make sense?

You jump from one subject to the next!

I have the greatest respect for all moderators and all people talking on this forum, be it egyptian, american, whatever nationality.

I am not looking for any on-line bashing, you are very argumentative person. You are very on the defensive "why" I don't know. Are you the only one that is allowed to speak there mind? I'm still confused why you brought up being kicked off this forum??
You are way out in left field. You don't know the difference between a friendly conversation and a confrontation. Why are you making this a battle? Just a conversation. You have issues.

---

Know you are trolling to bash specifically Americans. Specifically young women. No way in hell would the BCIS allow relationships with huge age gaps to immigrate the husband into the USA.

Why not open this question up to European wives a well. Far more Europeans marry Egyptians than Americans.

posted 10 January 2005 02:59 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jenna:
Sonomod: I agree with you they seemed to have singled him out! But as a general rule and this been for years when an unaccompanied male departs egypt on a visiting visa they are not scrutinized that harshly. now I'm talking egyptian males.they don't go over marriage documents with them or divorce papers with them.Many divorce documents other women have proved that they were falsely made and brought with them. Egyptian women need to investigate if there man is going overseas for what pupose ask to see papers.

---

No actually when my husband was filing out his professional visa at the USA embassy they ask about 5 different questions refering to marriage status out of about 85 questions. Then you must bring back about 25 - 60 documents proving you answered the questionaire correctly. Thats when our bureacrat family members come in handy. Some of this is streamlined with a professional service that can cost $,$$$ of LE, catch my drift?

Getting into the USA isn't like filing out a tourist visa for Americans at the Cairo airport. The application phase can take weeks to years. For my husband it took him about 5 months to fill out all the paperwork. He had to have at least 10 references from his college alone. Thank goodness his father is a College superintendant.

And they did single him out. Many middle class to upper class Arabs fit the profile of the 9/11 terrorists. Though in part the BCIS could've been using his informational profile for a composite of a correctly compiled composite. All of my in-laws are bureacrats, half the men spent their entire life in the military. His composite is probably an anti-terrorist composite.

Out of 7,000 applicants for a visa of any type to get into the USA only 15 are actually okayed.

I also taught ESL as a volunteer for 3 years. I had the same night to teach as a para legal who worked in a immigration law office so be talked everyweek. Another volunteer was a lawyer who worked at a bank but helped out pro-bono for immigration cases. I volunteered on his nights for a year and would run into each other variously on the nights we filled in for others in the other two years. Plus about 6 ladies and 2 of the male volunteers had married foreigners. Later 3 of the foreign naturalized spouses came to volunteer at the ESL center. So I have been around this for about 6 years.

posted 10 January 2005 03:59 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jenna:
Sonomod: I'm not saying your info is not accurate or your personal experience is not true , I believe you. Is your husband egyptian-born? But you may not want to face the facts but large numbers of arabs and egyptian men have been coming into america easily for years under student visas, and very easy the visiting visas. What happens is when the visiting visa expires they try to apply for an extension..when refused they go into hiding working "under the table" while trying to look for a wife to try to gain status in usa. Hopefully the good and the bad will be weeded out. Always remember "what goes around comes around" and everything in good time will come out meaning "dirty laundry"

---

yup he is egyptian born.

But seriously here, it is very difficult to get into America. As I said 7,000 apply each year through the Embassy. About several hundred get a direct route to America through their college, but extensive background checks are done. There is a work lottery in Egypt and less 100 are chosen. While the work lottery in China is several hundred chosen.

And to put it concretely, of the 19 hijackers only 2 had overstayed their visas. The other 6 had permenant residency or citizenship. While 4 snuck across the border. Only one managed to marry an American and have that as the sole reason he was able to stay in the USA.

I have joyously watched about 20 agrivating asshole arabs deported over the last 2 years.

Being able to get into the USA or stay in the USA under marriage reasons alone is difficult. The Egyptian men need to have a confirmed visa type that allows them to stay indefinately in the USA. Many couples have had to leave because of an expired visa. Even when the couple was married years before 9/11.

What you are asking is next to impossible. Even a few Somali classmates who lived in Cairo for a decade up until late 1990's. They are refugees, a reason to stay permenantly in the USA had their paperwork thoroughly checked in Egypt when they married on USA soil. This is even when these dudes married a Somalian woman who was a naturalized citizen. They checked refugee records in Kenya too.

I have seen women move their entire family back to Kenya because their husband brought both wives to America. So whatever wife he decided to keep legally in the USA was deported back to a refugee camp with him in Kenya. The wife he didn't choose was his second wife, I held her as she cried. She was his second choice and what hurt her the most is that she knew she was always his second choice. Small comfort that she got to stay in the USA. But she know hates him for not choosing her.

Hmong men marry in the USA then marry another woman in a refugee camp in Thailand. He tries to sponsor her to come to this country and he gets slapped with a bigamy charge, a mestermenor at the time. Untill the BCIS noticed that someone else tries to get his second wife into the USA, then they jail the husband and the false sponsor for fraud of a federal bureau. When a man dares to take two wives on USA soil they charge him with bigamy fine him or even jail him.

Why the hell do you think that other countries like Egypt don't have the resources to track these fraudulant marriages? They do.

Whenever someone files for a pension, birth, or marriage licence they make cross references like they do here. Remember 1/3 of Egyptians work for their government in some form, so they are entitled to benefits. In family court or 'personal law court' they track who is married to who for inheritance reasons. Often a second wife will try to recover some part of her husband's estate and fails miserably if not lose part of her property. Besides my husband's family had a few older relatives pass recently and the widow had to file out a form notifying who might possibly get what. The list encompassed 50 people all the way to 3 cousins and great grandchildren. When people retire, which a few in my family recently have, they must stand in line in Cairo for about a week and list all people who live with him/her and they support. This includes in-laws. So if someone is married and has a relative who has died or retired in the last 60 years family lineage is marked. Plus Sheiks must register marriages they have had done. Plus there is a census coming up. It becomes a hassle when the 6th census taker knocks on your door. Then you must register who lives where and who lives there. Blah blah blah!! Egypt has records and they check to make sure no one has created a false identity, or is hiding income. Duh terriorism, Egypt has fought the good fight against terriorism for 25 years, good thorough records help. Two of my husband's family members died in Southern Egypt fighting terriorism in 1997 & 1998, a police officer and a military officer/military police. Me and my husband discuss all sort of bureaucratic things. Then I have to research and explain what happens in American bureaucracy, he must know all.

Egypt is not a barren lawless country it has a government inspite of all its corruption is capable of keeping records on its people. They are not idiots. Just about every piece of paper is micropheshed twice somewhere in warehouses and checked for quality.

Egypt can keep track of its people just fine, remember it is considered a police state by some and has extensive files on a number of its people. It must if it is going to recieve foreign AID or upgrade itself into a more modern entity. It is only 2 decades behind the USA on efficiency.

posted 10 January 2005 04:40 AM            

Brides from China, South America, Eastern Europe all have background checks completed. That's why some of my loser coworkers when I was in the Security field would wait anywhere from a few months to 19 months waiting for thier brides. Yeah even those nasty men have to wait and get scrutinized.

Basically the mail order bride industry wouldn't have taken off if it wasn't for legislation passed in the early 1980's. RICO statues had to be looked at and statues had to be reassessed again.

posted 10 January 2005 04:53 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by salama:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jenna:
[B]Is anyone else wondering why so many married Egyptian men are traveling overseas marrying american women?

Why Western Men dripple to marry Egyptian Beauties?

---

Yeah what about that.

We never heard the intimate stuff between Dunes and he getting his wife over to the USA. We heard all about his sexual escapades but not anything concrete and having to do with anything outside his pants.

posted 10 January 2005 08:20 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by sonomod:
Jenna or hassencheb?

instead of focusing on me why don't you go to lexusnexus.com and find the actual law dictating that I am off my mark.

---

posted 10 January 2005 08:22 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jenna:
Sonomod: What? You do not even make sense?

You jump from one subject to the next!

You have issues.

---

I deleted the irrelevant parts.

Just be prepared to listen to stories about every grandmother, aunt, uncle, cousin, sister, girlfriend, brother in law, nieces and nephews, before its all over.

Sonomod, I just thought of something, you show signs of ADD, Attention Deficit Disorder, here are a few I've found online.

"Saying or doing things without thinking of the consequences, impulsivity"

"Distractibility, poor sustained attention."

"Inappropriate activity* especially in a situation of structured expectations such as a classroom"

"Adults with ADD have often learned to control inappropriate activity but report experiencing internal restlessness."

"Inability to stay focused on on particular subject"

posted 10 January 2005 07:14 PM            

were you dumped by your husband or what?

Its it a hormonal change that is sparking your need to attack? LuxorLover now me?

The only thing close to mental with me is a speech defect that I spent 4 years in speech therapy. I still get my words mixed up once in a while. No biggie.

posted 10 January 2005 07:30 PM            

I really could not believe reading her stories, she really tries to intimidate people, very sad that shows she craves attentiom badly and very low self-esteem. She compliments someone then in the same sentence slaps them in the face! I feel sorry for her!
She is not american nor is she egyptian, and does not even make sense.
I think this is the problem she wants to be one or the other she can't make up her mind.

Then she gets very vulgar with her language cussing people out name calling(how childish)! She doesn't know anything about the american ways or what she is talking about.
I never called egyptians idiots or insulted anyone. But she is very uninformed living in a fantasy world. yes, egyptian women are beautiful.no one said they were not.

posted 10 January 2005 08:34 PM            

Besides I looked at those photo links you posted. The windtunnel affect is slightly less extreme than it was on Jackie Collins but still noticeable. It wasn't just me who noticed, a girlfriend of mine just got married in Ivory de Cote and we IM so I shared the link. She noticed it too.
http://img149.exs.cx/img149/595/70653de.jpg
http://img149.exs.cx/img149/9194/7ca15ya.jpg

posted 10 January 2005 09:03 PM            

We are not the same person...........I know as much as you want to believe it, but we are not.

It really is sad you are so aggressive and have nothing to do with your time but verbally attack people on these forums that have intelligent conversations to engage in.

posted 10 January 2005 09:15 PM            

Who I am to stop you from your delisions go ahead.

I am just so thankful that I am 30 and can watch an over the hill goat like yourself drift into neverland so I know the warning signs and can avoid the same.

posted 10 January 2005 09:43 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Darkeyes:
Still think Sonomod's NOT nuts,hassancheb?

---

Turtles why not go back to trying to convince everyone that you live with your husband in Austria?

You are just as guilty of delusions.

posted 10 January 2005 09:49 PM            

Why not go post your hubby there? Aren't you in the least bit curious who else he has F*CKED lately?

Why not go check with western union or American Express to see how much the last lady pledged and see if your daddy will hand over an amount higher than the last old bag he was with sent.

Isn't that how you ladies cater to your husbands?

posted 10 January 2005 09:50 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by sonomod:

Turtles why not go back to trying to convince everyone that you live with your husband in Austria?

You are just as guilty of delusions.

Why not produce some photoshop doctored photos of you and your phantom husband in Vienna?

---

Guess again Voodoo Queen. Cuckoo. Cuckoo. Cuckoo.

posted 10 January 2005 10:21 PM            

the "alcohol" problem, you have been verbally abused for years and need an outlet .you take it out on other people. You are reaching out and crying out for help so bad .....you want to hurt others so bad .....but not really . You think it will get all that pain out of you that is buried deep inside. Actually I am not an old goat and I am Jenna it is kind of comical that you have mistaken me for someone else, and you are making yourself look like a fool!
I have never had plastic surgery, or have been dumped as you word it.
You make an interesting statement "no one gets dumped inyour family" just drunk that's nothing to be proud of.

none of you have coping skills, that's not your fault it's learned behavior and you will pass it on to your child unless you get help.

Do you think she would be proud to see her mother put people down?? Actually you have the fear of becoming "that old goat" you talk about............you associate everyone with your mother!

What you fear the most is you put all those sorrows in the bottle and the real truth is "your husband is unfaithful to you" that scares you to death!

posted 10 January 2005 10:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Darkeyes:
Guess again Voodoo Queen. Cuckoo. Cuckoo. Cuckoo.

---

Enjoy paying for your once a year treat.

Why doesn't western union have a telethon for these lazy slutty resort boys, possibly organize their finances for them so they can leave the Egyptian revenue service a trail so they could possibly pay taxes on these harems.

Maybe the only way these young sluts could contribute to soceity.

posted 10 January 2005 10:48 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jenna:

Do you think she would be proud to see her mother put people down?? Actually you have the fear of becoming "that old goat" you talk about............you associate everyone with your mother!

---

No actually there are plenty of elderly women who go to egypt for other reasons besides sex tourism.

Then there are millions of women in American and europe that have dignity. My aunts, grandma, and grandaunts have dignity. They wouldn't stoop to the level you have. They haven't been dumped for a younger model.

Your not one of these dignified mature women.

posted 10 January 2005 11:17 PM            

You just classified your mother, grandma , aunts as "drunks" who hit the bottle excessively! and yourself
Really you are sick!
Now they are dignified drunks!
I don't believe dignified and drunks go in the same sentence!

Again, My dear take your fear to the mirror it is you who has the fear of being dumped because your already being cheated on!

posted 10 January 2005 11:58 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jenna:
Sonomod: Dignified "huh"

You just classified your mother, grandma , aunts as "drunks" who hit the bottle excessively! and yourself
Really you are sick!
Now they are dignified drunks!
I don't believe dignified and drunks go in the same sentence!

Again, My dear take your fear to the mirror it is you who has the fear of being dumped because your already being cheated on!

You want to put your own sick delusions on everyone else.
go to the nearest psych. ward believe me they will admit you!

---

You know the percentage of middle age women who end up in a psych ward for depression have recently been /dumped/divorced?

Almost 65% of them.

posted 11 January 2005 12:25 AM            

You are only use to confrontations.

putting people down...........I don't know how you sleep at night?? You have so much fear you try to put it on everyone else.Your afraid of that old goat, you are in the unhappy marriage, you describe yourself in every sentence.
I think you fear your husband too.
You can never be happy for no one..........because you live in misery!
Stop hating and pray to god for forgiveness!
You just don't know how to love..........you will eat up inside from this sickness you do to others.!

posted 11 January 2005 12:32 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jenna:
Sonomod: I'll pray for you because you really need help!

You are only use to confrontations.

putting people down...........I don't know how you sleep at night?? You have so much fear you try to put it on everyone else.Your afraid of that old goat, you are in the unhappy marriage, you describe yourself in every sentence.
I think you fear your husband too.
You can never be happy for no one..........because you live in misery!
Stop hating and pray to god for forgiveness!
You just don't know how to love..........you will eat up inside from this sickness you do to others.!

---

Is this your religious sweet comforting sock puppet, username, or alter ego.

posted 11 January 2005 12:45 AM            

now Michelle....I believe you have the multiple personalities and they are all in your head
talking to you!

posted 26 January 2005 05:40 AM            

Jenna,

If you were an Egyptian Tour Guide you would have had a very different experience.
While working in Luxor and Aswan, many of my western and Japanese male guests asked me if I could introduce them to Egyptian women?
I remember I took a group of Peace Making Swedish troops who stationed in Ismaliya at the time, many of them were dead serious about the subject. I did introduce my friend Marie Rose who worked for UN to one of them . They are now living in Australia.

While working in Saudi as well, all five Egyptian femal translators married western doctors including one American.
I, myself, got away with the youngest and most handsome one.

posted 26 January 2005 10:22 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Darkeyes:
Still think Sonomod's NOT nuts,hassancheb?

---

LOL, I still think she is an intelligent girl,this is my psychoanalysis of her:

I think she from a very low class disfunctional family of alcoholics, drug addicts, and a loose mother with low morals.

I think she suffers from deep insecurities that her husband probably just married her for a visa, so she needs to constantly remind everyone that she has a "legitimate" marriage, and lash out at them.

She is insecure of growing old, because she probably doesn't have much more to offer other than her looks, and anyone not in a secure marriage always fear that no one will want them in their old age.

I think she and a few others around here have multiple personality disorders, because they have yet to discover who they are, have no self fulfillment, and are annoyed when someone like me, tells them about themself.

Of course I have my own issues also, but insecurity in my marriage is not one of them. My husband is a very high profile, honorable man in the arab community, that has been an inspiration to others. He came to this country as a refugee from war torn Lebanon, and has accomplish a great deal, and will tell anyone, that he could not have done it without a strong woman by his side.

But most of my issues stem from being overly sensitive, and sometimes too outspoken for my own good.

posted 26 January 2005 01:10 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by salama:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jenna:
[B]Is anyone else wondering why so many married Egyptian men are traveling overseas marrying american women?

Jenna,

If you were an Egyptian Tour Guide you would have had a very different experience.
While working in Luxor and Aswan, many of my western and Japanese male guests asked me if I could introduce them to Egyptian women?
I remember I took a group of Peace Making Swedish troops who stationed in Ismaliya at the time, many of them were dead serious about the subject. I did introduce my friend Marie Rose who worked for UN to one of them . They are now living in Australia.

While working in Saudi as well, all five Egyptian femal translators married western doctors including one American.
I, myself, got away with the youngest and most handsome one.

[This message has been edited by salama (edited 26 January 2005).]

---

In you'r Dream's ...LOL

posted 26 January 2005 01:23 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by hassancheb:
LOL, I still think she is an intelligent girl,this is my psychoanalysis of her:

I think she from a very low class disfunctional family of alcoholics, drug addicts, and a loose mother with low morals.

I think she suffers from deep insecurities that her husband probably just married her for a visa, so she needs to constantly remind everyone that she has a "legitimate" marriage, and lash out at them.

She is insecure of growing old, because she probably doesn't have much more to offer other than her looks, and anyone not in a secure marriage always fear that no one will want them in their old age.

I think she and a few others around here have multiple personality disorders, because they have yet to discover who they are, have no self fulfillment, and are annoyed when someone like me, tells them about themself.

Of course I have my own issues also, but insecurity in my marriage is not one of them. My husband is a very high profile, honorable man in the arab community, that has been an inspiration to others. He came to this country as a refugee from war torn Lebanon, and has accomplish a great deal, and will tell anyone, that he could not have done it without a strong woman by his side.

But most of my issues stem from being overly sensitive, and sometimes too outspoken for my own good.

---

posted 26 January 2005 03:00 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by moll:
wow....hassancheb, I think that's the first time I've read a post of yours where you haven't had a dig at LuxorLover, where you seem like a real person, and I completely agree with you.....I think you've got sonomod absolutely summed up.

---

Well just for the record, Luxorlover and I have "digs" at "eachother", it's not one-sided. And I have written several posts ignoring her. I just get annoyed when she mentions my name and remind people of things that happened months ago, I mean get over it! I know people that have escaped real live wars, and to hear this constant whining about "online" attacks just irritates the heck out of me, sorry. And I'm not the only one that notices it about her. Like for ex.. in one post RB was calling me and Penny b***chs, but all she could do is "thank" him for reminding "her" of me, I mean is that self-absorbed or what? Does she think the world revolve around her and who "attacked" her? Is she is angel herself, with her smart mouth? No. Will I say anything I say to her online in person, definitely! Do I have hotflashes and use her to vent, maybe

posted 29 January 2005 06:25 AM            

(imagine life with nuthing but veiled women..!

Yes, I imagine.
Life will more peaceful, no rape, no childern malestation, no forging holly books,...,..
Yes, I imagine .

posted 29 January 2005 03:43 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by salama:
The Guy wrote:

(imagine life with nuthing but veiled women..!

Yes, I imagine.
Life will more peaceful, no rape, no childern malestation, no forging holly books,...,..
Yes, I imagine .

---

You can't possibly believe that. Or do you?

You really think if all women walked around vieled there would be no more rape, child molestation, or forging of "holy" books as you call it???? Come on, that alone would not stop the above crimes!!!!!

BTW for someone that claims to be as highly educated as yourself you sure do make a lot of spelling errors...

posted 29 January 2005 09:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by salama:
The Guy wrote:

(imagine life with nuthing but veiled women..!

Yes, I imagine.
Life will more peaceful, no rape, no childern malestation, no forging holly books,...,..
Yes, I imagine .

---

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(New York, December 17, 2002) – Afghan women and girls have suffered
mounting abuses, harassment and restrictions of their fundamental human
rights during 2002, Human Rights Watch said in a new report released
today.

The 52-page report, “We Want to Live As Humans”: Repression of Women
and Girls in Western Afghanistan, focuses on the increasingly harsh
restrictions on women and girls imposed by Ismail Khan, a local governor
in the west of Afghanistan who receives military and financial
assistance from the United States. Human Rights Watch said that the
situation in Herat was symptomatic of developments across the country,
and that women and girls were facing new restrictions in several other
regions as well.

“Many people outside the country believe that Afghan women and girls
have had their rights restored. It’s just not true,” said Zama
Coursen-Neff, the co-author of the report and researcher in the
Children’s Rights Division of Human Rights Watch. “Women and girls are
still being abused, harassed, and threatened all over Afghanistan, often
by government troops and officials.”

Human Rights Watch found that women’s and girls’ rights in Herat had
improved since the fall of the Taliban, noting that many women and girls
have been allowed to return to school and university, and to some jobs.
But the report found that these advances were tempered by growing
government repression of social and political life. Ismail Khan has
censored women’s groups, intimidated outspoken women leaders, and
sidelined women from his administration in Herat. Restrictions on the
right to work mean that many women will never be able to use their
education.

The Human Rights Watch report said that the Herat government has even
recruited schoolboys to spy on girls and women and report on so-called
un-Islamic behavior.

In some instances, police under Ismail Khan’s command have questioned
women and girls seen alone with men, even taxi drivers, and arrested
those who are not related. Human Rights Watch said that men caught in
such circumstances are usually taken to jail; women are brought to a
hospital, where police force doctors to conduct medical exams on the
women to determine whether they have had recent sexual intercourse, or
if unmarried, whether they are virgins.

“Ismail Khan has created an atmosphere in which government officials and
private individuals believe they have the right to police every aspect
of women’s and girls’ lives: how they dress, how they get around town,
what they say,” said Coursen-Neff. “Women and girls in Herat expected
and deserved more when the Taliban were overthrown.”

Human Rights Watch said that problems for women and girls were growing
worse in many parts of the country outside of the capital, Kabul.
Throughout 2002, girls’ schools in at least five different provinces
have been set on fire or destroyed by rocket attacks.

Human Rights Watch said that reports from around the country indicate
that government troops and officials regularly target women and girls
for abuse, often invoking vague edicts on dress and social behavior. In
many areas, local police and troops are enforcing Taliban-era
restrictions, including banning music and forcing women and adolescent
girls to continue wearing burqas.

Human Rights Watch said that many of these local forces have received
weapons and assistance from the United States and other countries during
2002. Human Rights Watch called on all countries involved in Afghanistan
to cease military assistance to local commanders and to coordinate all
future aid through Kabul’s central government.

Human Rights Watch urged the Afghan Transitional Administration in Kabul
to prohibit harassment and abuse targeted at women, and to appoint new
civilian governors in provinces in which serious abuses against women
and girls are occurring. Human Rights Watch also called on the
international community to support the Afghan government in these
efforts. It urged international donors to support the work of Afghan
women, inside and outside of the government, for example, by supporting
women’s groups throughout the country.

Human Rights Watch called on the U.N. Assistance Mission in Afghanistan
(UNAMA) to expand human rights monitoring efforts and to continue
efforts to strengthen the Afghan Human Rights Commission, in order to
help protect all Afghans seeking to speak openly and challenge abusers.

Noting that efforts to improve security and human rights protection
would require an increased presence of international peacekeepers, Human
Rights Watch urged the United States, Germany, and the Netherlands to
lead efforts to expand international peacekeeping forces in Afghanistan,
which are currently stationed only in the Kabul area. Germany and the
Netherlands will take joint command of the peacekeeping forces in early
2003. Human Rights Watch urged the United States, European Union
nations, and NATO, as well as Pakistan, Iran, and other countries
bordering Afghanistan to contribute logistical and intelligence support
necessary for international peacekeeping to expand.

“The U.S.-led coalition justified the war against the Taliban in part by
promising that it would liberate Afghanistan’s women and girls,” said
Coursen-Neff. “In fact, by supporting repressive warlords, the
international community has broken that promise and forsaken women’s
rights.”

The Human Rights Watch report is the second of two reports on Herat. In
November, Human Rights Watch released a 51-page report, “All Our Hopes
Are Crushed: Violence and Repression in Western Afghanistan,”
documenting abuses by Ismail Khan’s forces against political opponents,
detainees and ethnic minorities. keralamonitor.com

For More Detailed Report Click here

Arbitrary Arrests and Abusive Gynecological Examinations

Women and girls caught walking with men on the street, riding with men in cars, and alone with men in private homes are arrested by police. Arrest can be followed by an abusive gynecological examination at Herat hospital to look for evidence of recent sexual intercourse. Heratis report that with increasing frequency, police are arresting both young girls and married women, males and females in private homes, women traveling alone in taxis with the driver, and boys and girls seen talking or walking together on the street.77 Although police ostensibly target unrelated individuals, Human Rights Watch has received several reports of relatives being arrested as well.

This practice is official government policy, not unsanctioned acts of individual police: police are mandated to monitor relations between males and females, they process detainees at the police station, and they record the arrest and examination in an official document. According to a Herati familiar with the situation:

The Herat criminal branch has a subgroup devoted to following people around the city. They are concerned with monitoring their behavior, from the point of view of morality. They are arresting both males and females-they can even go into private houses. . . . They follow people who walk in the streets, follow them home. They are especially paying attention to girls and boys who talk with each other.78

A woman confirmed, "Yes, this is true . . . women and girls can't be alone in a car with men who are not family members. . . . [Y]oung girls [are] afraid of this situation to take taxi by themselves. . . . [I]f they want to go somewhere with mahram at night, it's okay but if they want to go lonely [sic] they will be arrested by police."79

A doctor at Herat's only hospital told Human Rights Watch that as of October 2002, police were taking about ten girls and women daily to the hospital for gynecological examinations to determine whether they had recently had sexual intercourse.80 According to the doctor, the exams are conducted in the maternity ward "by a doctor with two female nurses present."81 Another doctor confirmed that the examinations were being conducted, but disagreed about their frequency. "It is 100 percent true," he said. "It is testing as to `has this woman had sexual intercourse in the last hour?' . . . But the cases are limited-only one or two cases a day."82

Human Rights Watch was not able to learn whether any women have been prosecuted on the basis of these medical examinations. However, in Herat, as in Kabul and elsewhere in Afghanistan, women and girls are being jailed and prosecuted for sexual relations outside of marriage and for trying to leave their husbands, even when the marriages were forced or the husband is abusive.83

Because of the extreme shame surrounding any allegations of sexual impropriety, it is difficult to collect information about this practice. For example, a Herati who has tried to document forced medical examinations told Human Rights Watch, "No one will talk to me. No one will tell me anything. Everyone is afraid. No one wants to speak about this with me."84 However, Human Rights Watch was able to collect information from a variety of independent sources: from relatives of examined girls and women, from witnesses at hospitals, from medical staff obligated to perform the exams, from government officials, and from others involved in the cases in various ways. Identifying details have been withheld from the following cases in order to protect the privacy of the women and girls involved.

In September 2002, a girl was arrested because she was seen talking with a man in front of her home. A man who was present when she was brought to the hospital described what he saw:

A car came and stopped in front of the maternity ward. There were two people from the criminal branch-one was a driver, the other was an officer from the criminal branch. He had a letter in his hand. And behind them in the back seat of the car was a girl. Almost eighteen years old-I don't know. She was trying to cover her face with the chadori she had over her head, so that the people around her would not see her face and recognize her.

Then they took her out of the car and made her go inside the maternity unit. And the man from the criminal branch handed the official paper to the doctor on duty, whose name was Dr. [name omitted].

My mother saw everything in the clinic room. She told me that the girl was protesting and was not letting the doctors check her. So it took a long time, and finally she let them check her. And she was checked, and the paper was written officially by Dr. [name omitted], with the stamp of the hospital. The paper was given back to the man who brought the girl to the hospital. So this was what I saw with my own eyes.

Later, I understood that she had not done anything wrong, that was what the doctor said. I learned this later-I talked with the guy who brought her to the hospital. He had not arrested her-some other troops had, and he had been ordered to take her to the hospital. They said that she was talking to a strange guy in front of her house, and the police forces saw her and right at the moment arrested them-the guy and the girl.85

In October 2002, criminal branch police arrested a girl and her cousin in the bazaar. Police brought the girl to the maternity ward where many people witnessed the event, which, according to one witness, was conducted with "so much noise and commotion that all the patients and their visitors (at least one hundred people) learned of the incident and were pointing out the poor girl to one another."86 Two doctors performed a "chastity examination" and determined that the girl was "perfectly healthy and untouched."87 Criminal branch police then filled out an "official report" recording the date and time of the examination and that the girl "was found to be healthy and chaste."88 Four doctors signed the report.89

As already noted, the prohibition on women and girls riding alone in cars with men who are not close family members includes taxi drivers who, in Herat, are all male. According to the relative of a woman who was arrested and subjected to a forced medical examination: "It's a ordinary thing in Herat-when a woman is alone with a driver in a car, then the police stop them and ask them questions-are they relatives, etc.?"90

In August 2002 at a main intersection in Herat city, police forces stopped a twenty-year-old woman riding alone in a taxi. According to a person familiar with the case:

The taxi driver was, in fact, a relative of hers-a cousin. She had got into a taxi of her relative. And when the police forces asked them about their relatives (separately), what their names were, etc., they had problems telling the police the names of distant relatives. They were confused. They couldn't say the same name, so the police became suspicious that they were not relatives and sent the girl to the hospital for the medical test.91

The taxi driver was taken to the police station.92 When Human Rights Watch asked what happened to the driver at the station, the person familiar with the case responded: "Well, you were in Herat, and you know that whoever enters into the criminal branch will not be released without a severe punishment."93 (Human Rights Watch documented in our previous report on Herat that the criminal branch of Herat's police department routinely beats and tortures detainees.94)

In September 2002, police from the criminal branch arrested a married woman carrying her infant because she was being driven by a man who was not her husband.95 The woman was forcibly examined in the hospital and detained for three nights, during which time she was not allowed to feed her baby, who was not yet weaned.96 She was not charged with a crime and was released only after several influential Heratis intervened.97

Police have even arrested individuals in private homes. In early October 2002, police arrested a boy and a girl, who were relatives, in a family member's home. According to a Herati familiar with the incident, police entered the home and found the boy and the girl together in one room, and other family members in another. The police questioned the pair and they responded, "We are relatives and we are talking. What is the problem?"98 The police nevertheless arrested them and took them to the police station.99 There the police obtained the document for the gynecological examination, and took the girl to the hospital to be examined.100 At the police station, the boy reported, he was beaten, slapped, punched, and kicked.101 "They have insulted me, abused me, and said all sorts of bad intolerable words to me," he reportedly said.102

Ismail Khan not only enforces restrictions on women's and girls' freedom of movement with his own officials and the boys squads, he also encourages private citizens to do so as well. In November 2002, Ismail Khan announced on the radio and Herat television:

You must stop [unmarried] men and women who are together. . . . It is not only the business of the criminal branch and for Vice and Virtue-you must stop men and women who are unmarried from walking together on the street. According to Islam, you are obliged to beat them.103

The ICCPR and the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment protect individuals from cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment; ensure the right to bodily integrity; and require states parties to protect these rights without discrimination of any kind.104 Under the Afghan Constitution the "state has the duty to respect and protect the liberty and dignity of the individual. . . . Imposing punishment incompatible with human dignity is not permissible."105

The forced gynecological examinations described here constitute cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment and are gross violations of bodily integrity. Conducted in a coercive setting, against women and girls' will, and with no medical justification, the examinations are themselves a form of sexual abuse. They are degrading and intimidating, both as a physical violation and for the threatened consequence of prosecution and loss of family honor.106 Regardless of the doctor's findings, the mere act of performing the exam constitutes significant punishment, even more so when it is done in a way that attracts public attention as in the case described above. A person who witnessed a woman being forced to submit to an examination at Herat's hospital explained, "I really felt pity for the poor girl who was so humiliated and her family who was also thoroughly humiliated."107

The Herat government is, in effect, policing women's and girls' sexuality. International human rights law increasingly recognizes a woman's right to sexual autonomy, including the right to be free from nonconsensual sexual relations, even within marriage, and the right to engage in consensual sexual relations without coercion or the threat of violence.108

Moreover, forced gynecological examinations solely to determine whether a woman or girl has had sexual intercourse redirects scarce resources from medically necessary procedures, particularly concerning maternal health care. A 2002 study by Physicians for Human Rights found that women and girls in Herat Province

have an extraordinarily high risk of dying during pregnancy and childbirth and the highest maternal mortality ratio in the world outside of Africa. . . . [P]renatal care, maternal health care facilities and trained health care personnel are virtually non-existent in the region and . . . violations of human rights contribute to preventable maternal deaths.109

Fewer than 1 percent of women and girls in Herat give birth attended by a trained health care worker.110 According to the study, in Herat hospital "instrument sterilization consists only of boiling" and the hospital "has inadequate, outdated equipment and inadequate supplies of essential medicines and materials for surgical procedures."111 In this context the use of medical workers' time, expertise, and equipment for forced gynecological examinations is unconscionable. In a situation where hundreds of thousands of Afghan women and girls are dying each year from lack of access to medical care-nationwide an estimated 87 percent of the estimated annual 515,000 maternal deaths are preventable112-the practice violates Herati women's right of access to health care.113

Driving

Although most Herati women do not know how to drive, or do not have access to a car, those who do are still not permitted: the local government will not issue driver's licenses to women, and Herat city police have arrested women for driving.114 Although many women and girls hoped that with the Taliban's departure they would be permitted to drive, Ismail Khan's government has made it clear that it will tolerate no attempts to challenge the policy. In September 2002, the director of Herat's Traffic Office, Darhargarnal Hafizullah, told an Afghan man who came to ask about getting a license for his wife: "Right now women are not allowed to drive. Unfortunately in Herat city, we don't have the licenses to issue for women. We have asked Kabul to send some."115 He then cautioned, "I advise you as a friend, for many reasons, she should not drive right now."116

A woman who learned to drive in Iran told Human Rights Watch: "I cannot drive in Herat even though I know how. I love driving and I want to go everywhere by myself, but I can't because the government doesn't let us."117

Women who have tried to get driver's licenses have been rebuffed. Around late June 2002, a group of woman who knew how to drive applied to the Herat Traffic Office. As of September 2002, they had not been allowed to take the driver's test, and a government official informed them that they would not be allowed to do so. One woman told Human Rights Watch:

I want to drive myself to work and drive myself wherever I want to go. This is one of my ambitions-to drive and become free. Fifteen ladies and I have learned how to drive, but Ismail Khan doesn't allow us. We can't get a driver's license. A government official gave us the forms. We filled them out and turned them in about two months ago. But the government refuses to give us the driving test. A friend who works for the government told me that they are not ever going to give us the test. As far as I know, no ladies have taken the driving test....

Woman are forbidden from driving either alone or with another person in the car. It is because the government doesn't want women to take off the burqa. Who can drive with a burqa? I think the government won't allow women to drive because if they allow it, then everybody will take off their burqas in order to drive.118

In July or August 2002, a professional woman who had obtained special permission to drive was stopped by police who took away her special license and tried to take her to the police station.119 A widow with a disabled child and elderly mother-in-law, she had no one to drive her to work or to do shopping, or to take her children to school. According to a witness, the woman was returning home in the late evening with her children when armed police forces stopped her in front of her house, asked her why she was driving, and confiscated her license. She was not wearing a burqa or chadori. A crowd gathered, her brother was notified, and he came to the scene and challenged the police. The police officers ordered them to go to the police station; the women went into her home and her brother went to the station. However, he was not able to persuade the police to return her license, and she stopped driving entirely. 120 Human Rights Watch did not interview this woman but confirmed these events from other sources.

This incident is well known in Herat, and women told Human Rights Watch that it specifically-and fear of their own arrest-has deterred them from challenging the government's prohibition on women driving. For example, a woman with access to a car and whose family would support her told Human Rights Watch:

I wanted to start learning to drive, but as soon as I heard about the problems [of the women who was stopped by the police], I gave it up. There is no driving class [for women]. Some women know how to drive from Kabul, but they are not allowed. I think the only way I am going to drive is to go to another country.121

Another woman said:

Really, we are afraid to go in our own cars. If I as a woman go out driving in my own car, the government will punish me because they do not want women to drive. I heard about that woman who got arrested by the police. That made me afraid to drive because I was afraid that I would be the second one.122

By comparison, even in Kabul, where there is no official prohibition on women driving, government officials have been reluctant to grant private organizations permission to hold driving classes for women, and armed men have stopped driving instructors and questioned them about their relation to the girls and women in the car.123 An official in the Kabul government laughed when Human Rights Watch raised with her the issue of driving. "I am a [high-ranking government official] and even I haven't dared to drive in Kabul since I got here five months ago," she said. "And I drove for six years in Pakistan."124

Violations of Freedom of Expression and Association

We should be able to change the rules if we don't agree with them.

-Teacher in Herat, September 2002125

Women should be participating in policy, social, and cultural things and throughout the community and the government. But not that women are just there sitting and listening-they should be able to create things that they want and give their ideas to others. Their ideas are important. Men and women's ideas are equal. Men should be respectful of women's ideas. But I don't know anyone who speaks her ideas freely now.

-Herat university student, September 2002126

Many women and girls in Herat city expressed a strong desire to participate in their country's civil and political life, and to be able to speak freely, both publicly and privately. They want to participate in the political discourse and have a voice in governmental decisions-especially those that affect them.

One of the most egregious aspects of the Taliban's rule was its attempt to erase women's participation in society. The situation has improved, but only slightly. As it stands, Ismail Khan is not allowing women or men to take part in most decision-making processes, but this repression is falling doubly hard on women, who face both the general political repression of Ismail Khan's regime, and his targeted repression of women. Very few forums are open to women in Herat, and those that are open are effectively controlled by Ismail Khan. He and his agents-almost all men-decide what rules govern women's and girls' lives. Some rules are aimed at keeping the sexes separate. These affect women and girls differently than men because it is women and girls who are excluded from governing bodies where decisions are made, from civic and cultural activities, from work, and from equal education. Women and girls also face different consequences of breaking these rules than do men.

Ismail Khan and his government have almost complete control of public speech-in the press, civic associations, the university, and the workplace. Human Rights Watch's November 2002 report, "All Our Hopes are Crushed," documented that Ismail Khan and his government since taking power have not allowed the formation of independent media or associations, tightly controlling the activities of the few organizations and media that exist.127 Ismail Khan has restricted speech about his government, about his troops, and about any other topics he chooses-especially women's rights. Women along with men were harassed and intimidated for participating in the loya jirga process in May and June 2002.128 Members of the few civic organizations, such as the Professional Shura, have been intimidated to censor all criticism of the government from their speech and writings.129 Women who have challenged these policies have been publicly and privately castigated by government officials and been called "un-Islamic," a serious charge in the increasingly fundamentalist climate. They have also been prohibited from speaking publicly or to journalists about women's rights, and fired from their jobs or threatened with being fired. "We are very afraid," one woman said on the condition of anonymity.130 "It is difficult for us to say things about or against the government because it will create problems for us. . . . We are under pressure from the [Herat] government, and we can't say anything against it."131

This section focuses on intimidation and repression targeted specifically at women and girls and activities around women's rights.

Freedom of Association and Speech About Women's Rights
Ismail Khan's government has barred or severely restricted women and girls from participating in many forums: it has denied them permission to form organizations, kept them out of most government positions, pressured them not to work for foreign organizations, and punished speech about women's rights. In the few areas where the government has allowed women to participate, it has been under strict limitations on what they can say, where they can say it, and how they can appear when they speak. "I can't say the wrong things because I want to struggle in society," said a woman who feared being excluded from all forums if she criticized the Herat government.132

Ismail Khan has been particularly hostile to women and girls' organizations with some capacity to address even vaguely political issues, as opposed to strictly humanitarian organizations (such as those that teach literacy and handicrafts). Within these organizations, Ismail Khan and his agents have especially targeted speech about women's rights. Symbolically, in March 2002, Ismail Khan cancelled a celebration of International Women's Day, to which five hundred guests were invited, the day before the event was scheduled to take place.133

The Women's Shura
At the time of writing, the only women's organization in Herat permitted to be involved in any substantive political and social issues was the Herat Women's Shura (council), which was established in August 2002.134 (There are a few other women's groups involved in humanitarian and development work.135) Shura members told Human Rights Watch that Ismail Khan initially opposed its formation. However, perhaps because of intense international interest in women's issues in Afghanistan, he eventually granted permission. He has since handpicked the leadership, controlled the subjects the shura can address, and attempted to make the shura operate in the most traditional manner possible. Many of Herat's professional women as well as students were eager for a forum to address issues related to women and girls, and participated in the shura's initial meetings. But despite some dedicated members who have elected to remain in the shura with the hope of using it to create more political space for women, the group is not independent of the government and has little prospect of fulfilling its original aims.

A woman who chose not to join the shura explained: "Ismail Khan didn't want a Women's Shura to exist, but when [he allowed it], he selected the head of it himself. After he had selected the head, we couldn't give our ideas freely."136 Even those who have chosen to participate in the Women's Shura concede that it is controlled by Ismail Khan. "The president was appointed by the government," one member told Human Rights Watch.137 "It's not private, it's under the government's control. Some person from the government attends each meeting," said another member.138 Other members confirmed that Ismail Khan or his officials attend and monitor the shura's meetings.139

At the shura's first meeting, Ismail Khan personally defined what the organization's mission should be. Herat television reported: "The general Emir of the southwest zone during a speech clarified the role of the Shura's women in the rehabilitation of the country, the rehabilitation of deprived women, and solving family problems, then listened to the opinions and suggestions of women and gave clear answers to their questions."140

Although it might be expected that the Women's Shura would address issues of women's rights, Ismail Khan's handpicked leadership has shut down this kind of speech, especially where it has included criticism of his government's policy. For example, at one meeting, a participant disagreed with Ismail Khan's assertion that Afghan women enjoy many rights compared with women elsewhere in the world.141 The shura's leaders chastised her for contradicting Ismail Khan and said that she "shouldn't talk because he is the leader and everything he says is right."142 In another example, after another shura member spoke with a journalist about women's rights and the Women's Shura, the head of the shura ordered her not to speak with journalists.143 Human Rights Watch also interviewed a woman who said that she was not invited to join the Women's Shura because of her political participation in the Professional Shura.144

The retaliation women and girls have experienced for speaking about women's rights has had a chilling effect and caused both women and men to censor themselves. For example, the Women's Shura decided to discuss the issue of self-immolation-where women in forced and abusive marriages are reportedly committing suicide by dousing themselves with cooking fuel and setting themselves on fire.145 Ismail Khan participated in the meeting and, according to a woman who was present, "He said that these kinds of girls are not brave and don't have the capacity to struggle against problems in their families. They are not good women."146 Some women disagreed, believing that the government should protect women and girls in abusive, forced marriages, but were afraid to speak publicly. "I can't say things freely, and I can't say the truth," one participant explained.147 Others who were trying to address the problem of self-immolation said that they were not able to say publicly that the government should do anything about the forced and abusive marriages, such as provide legal protection, but instead were forced to follow the government position that it is the girls and women's fault, who thus must be urged not to commit suicide.148

A woman who was verbally chastised and told not to speak again by Ismail Khan's representatives in August or September 2002 for speaking publicly about restrictions on women said to Human Rights Watch:

Should I say lies? I should say the truth because I want my country to progress and develop. . . . I feel bad because I am very angry. Why shouldn't we say the truth and also say about what has happened? . . . I am afraid. Maybe in the future I won't say anything about women's rights. The first time they chastised me but it may be worse the second time because they control ideas.149

As a consequence, some have chosen not to participate or have dropped out. The participant who disagreed openly with Ismail Khan said:

My speech made him mad. . . . It's better that I don't participate in the future in such a meeting because I can't control myself when I am speaking. I get emotional and I say everything and after that it creates many problems.150

According to a former member:

I and most of the others left because the shura was under Ismail Khan's control, and I didn't want to obey his ideas. The women were not independent. It was better to leave and just stay at home. . . . I said to myself, "It's better to leave because my ideas are completely different from the government and from the Women's Shura."151

A university student explained her frustration: "There is no individual group or women's association except the Women's Shura established by Ismail Khan. I don't participate in it-I don't like to go to Ismail Khan and talk about these things."152 Another student explained: "I am not part of the Women's Shura because that shura is entirely dependent on the government and is close to the government and the government's policy, and nobody can say anything that they feel."153 When asked if the Women's Shura could represent their interests, a group of students who had attended some meetings said, "No. Maybe in the future we will participate and give ideas, but not now."154

Following the publication of Human Rights Watch's first report on Herat in November 2002, documenting political intimidation and violence and the denial of freedom of expression, the Women's Shura issued a statement that: "We, the women of Herat, sternly reject the claim of Human Rights Watch. All men and women have legal rights and freedom in Herat, which has been the pioneer in rehabilitation, education and social activities since the mujahidin first won victory."155

The Herat Literary Society
Herat's literary society was founded under the Taliban, in secret, as a forum for artists, writers, and poets to continue exchanging their work, even as the Taliban attempted to eradicate most artistic and literary traditions in Herat. This underground effort was linked with other efforts in Herat to operate secret schools for women and girls. After the Taliban's fall, the society surfaced publicly and no longer hid the fact that some of its members were female.156

However, since returning to power, Ismail Khan and his officials have limited women's and girls' participation and have sought to control the content of the society's work. About a month after Ismail Khan came back into power, the society held a large meeting at a hotel in Herat. A participant described what happened:

More than one hundred women participated in a meeting where they read their own poems. When the meeting ended, Faiq, the head of Information and Culture, said to us that henceforth women should not participate more than men in the meetings. He said that the number of women should be limited to a handful and that they should sit at the back. These were Ismail Khan's indirect orders through the head of Information and Culture and the head of the Library. They said that for moral reasons, men and women should not be together-that it was against Shari'a.157

At approximately the same time, a group of girls petitioned Ismail Khan for permission to form a girls' section of the literary society. Ismail Khan refused.158 Then a group of boys and girls attempted to form a youth section of the society. One of the members said that:

The youth wanted to have their own association inside the society, but independent from it. It was going to be both male and female, and meet once a week. After the first meeting, Faiq informed Ismail Khan, who [then] strongly told the head of the association that men and women should not meet together in a separate group. If we would like to meet, it should be in the board's presence. The director told us, "Ismail Khan will create trouble for all of us so you cannot meet in this way." This was two or three months after the Taliban left. The board told us harshly to end our meetings. They were harsh because they were afraid.159

As with the Women's Shura, the government has pressured the literary society to avoid the subject of women's rights. In July or August 2002, there was a meeting of literary society members and officials from the Ministry of Social Affairs. Ismail Khan's son was also there. At the meeting, a literary society member read an article she had written about women's rights. According to a person who was present, the member said that, "Men and women are the same, and their rights are the same, and women should go out and find jobs and live in society. There is no difference between women and men, and women should find jobs in the highest posts."160 Government officials responded by accusing her of being un-Islamic, a serious charge which implicates her honor and could potentially result in her being ostracized. Then, after the meeting, officials pressured the literary association to censure further discussion of women's rights, and the speaker was told not to write articles of this type in the future.161 The witness told Human Rights Watch:

[T]he head director of the literary association-he himself was under pressure from the government-pressured [the female members] not to do this again because it would create many problems and maybe they would close the literary association. After that we couldn't read our articles because most were about women. The [Herat] government wants us to prepare articles about mujahidin freedom but we don't have any articles about this.162

As a result of pressure from Ismail Khan's government, various members, both male and female, who took grave risks to participate in the literary society during the Taliban period told Human Rights Watch that since the loya jirga they had stopped participating. Some have gone to Kabul or other places seeking greater freedom and safety. Others found their hopes after the Taliban's fall unfulfilled and were simply too discouraged to continue. In September 2002 the long-time head of the society resigned.163 The new head told members:

It is better that women do not come to the literary association. . . . If any girl or women who was formerly member of the literary association by chance has any problems or difficulties or issues to discuss about writing and editing, the other girls should go to their houses and solve their problem there; therefore there is no good reason for girls to come to the literary association.164

Speech in the Workplace

Women also reported that they could not speak freely at work and, especially, could not criticize the government. Women teachers at all grade levels employed by Herat's department of education told Human Rights Watch that they are afraid to challenge government policies related to their work, for example, that they observe very strict hijab and avoid contact with foreigners. One teacher told Human Rights Watch:

One day right after the schools opened, a group of NGOs came to the school, and after the meeting finished, a teacher talked with a foreign man. [Government officials] called her and said, "What did you say against the government? Why did you talk privately? Did you complain about the situation in Herat?" They pressured her, and after that the government said to all schools that no one can talk with foreigners privately.165

With very few jobs open to them, women are especially afraid to risk their jobs by challenging the education department's policies. One teacher explained why she does not speak freely:

The Emir here [Ismail Khan] has control, and it would be really easy for him to fire me, to replace me. I fear this as well. . . . If I speak freely, I will face the same situation as [name omitted] because she was speaking against the government and it cost her her position. . . . If we speak freely then we will face the same situation as [name omitted] and get fired.166

The Herat department of education did, in fact, fire a school administrator who refused to stop classes for students to attend a military parade.167 Aziza Sayi, the deputy of female education in the department of education, also chastised the administrator, saying she "was not an Islamic woman."168

Women working for international NGOs also said that they are under government scrutiny and have been warned by Ismail Khan how to behave (see below): "You cannot say the reality-you have to be so diplomatic. You have to wear a mask. It's difficult. You are pretending to be someone else."169

Speech in the University

The Herat government and the conservative university chancellor appointed by Ismail Khan tightly control speech in Herat's university, especially that of female students. Rather than the university being an environment in which ideas are exchanged and debated, women told Human Rights Watch that they could not write or speak freely about women's rights in their classes, that the chancellor had punished students who spoke publicly about women's rights, and that professors are afraid to discuss politics as it is expressly forbidden. (See below.)

Control of Women's Images on Television
Women and girls are rarely shown on Herat television (controlled by Ismail Khan's government), and women explained to Human Rights Watch that they cannot be employed by the station or work as journalists.170 When women and older girls are shown, it is under the condition that they wear complete, conservative hijab with no hair showing; if they do not comply, they are excluded from the broadcast. For example, in late August or early September, the station broadcast a public meeting of the Women's Shura. According to a participant:

Ismail Khan participated in the meeting last week. At this meeting, the director of the shura was speaking and her hair appeared in front of her scarf. The T.V. cameraman refused to show her picture because her hair was showing. He was the station's head director, and if a women's hair showed it would look badly for him. This lady's hair was respectful. . . . This is the problem the government has with women.171

Similarly, a shura member reported, "Whenever we have a party or meeting, the director of the T.V. station will say, `Hurry up and put on your chadori and cover your hair because it creates problems for us!'"172 Another person present at the meeting confirmed: "The cameraman went around saying `You should cover your hair.' It was not comfortable to read or speak [in this environment]."173

Around the same time, the station's director imposed similar restrictions on secondary school girls. According to a teacher:

Last week Zohair Shah [the head of Herat television] came to the school to do a T.V. program. He wanted to interview students and told them that they should put their hair under a scarf and keep hijab completely. Two students didn't want to do the interview with him under those conditions. They said, "Why do you tell us that we can't show any of our hair?" So they didn't do any interviews with him. But after that we had to obey his commands.174

In the second half of 2002, when women appeared in films and other foreign programs not wearing complete hijab, Herat television began substituting a blank screen or an image of flowers for as long as the woman appeared in the picture.

The right to freedom of expression is set out in article 19 of the ICCPR: "Everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kind. . . ."175 As stated in the convention, the right includes both verbal and non-verbal expression. The right to freedom of association is set out in article 22 of the ICCPR. States may restrict expression and association for reasons including national security, public order or morals, but only to the extent provided by law and as strictly necessary.176 Even then, as the Human Rights Committee, the international body responsible for interpreting the obligations of the ICCPR, has made clear: "when a State party imposes certain restrictions on the exercise of freedom of expression, these may not put in jeopardy the right itself."177

Afghanistan's 1964 constitution also provides for the rights to freedom of expression and association. Article 31 protects the freedom of expression:

Freedom of thought and expression is inviolable. Every Afghan has the right to express his thoughts in speech, in writing, in pictures, and by other means, in accordance with the provisions of the law.

Article 32 protects the freedoms of assembly and association:

Afghan citizens have the right to assemble unarmed, without prior permission of the state, for the achievement of legitimate and peaceful purposes, in accordance with the provisions of the law. Afghan citizens have the right to establish, in accordance with the provisions of the law, associations for the realization of material or spiritual purposes.

Policing of Women's Dress

Burqa sales are good and have improved. They are better now than earlier in the year. . . . They're better than this time last year. . . . Women are going out more and need more burqas, especially school girls.

-Herati shop owner, September 2002178

Almost all women and older girls in Herat city, when they go outside, wear a burqa, a floor length garment which entirely covers the face and body. The wearer sees through a small screen in front of the eyes but has no peripheral vision.179 Unlike during the Taliban, some women wear the front panel rolled up away from the face, and a few instead wear a floor-length cloth, which in Herat is called chadori, held under the chin, which also entirely covers the head and body but leaves the face exposed. Human Rights Watch researchers neither saw any women or older girls in Herat on the street without burqa or chadori nor interviewed any who said they would go out without either of the coverings. The wearing of burqa or chadori is imposed by police, employers, and school administrators, as well as by some families and private individuals in the street. Women themselves may also elect to wear it; however, many told Human Rights Watch that their decision was motivated by the fear of harassment or even violence rather than meaningful choice.

Although in interviews with Human Rights Watch many Herati women ranked removing the burqa or chadori below the freedom to work, to organize, or to speak freely, almost all consistently expressed a strong desire to remove the garment, or to decide freely whether to wear it. In contrast, most women and girls told Human Rights Watch that if they were able to choose freely, they would still chose to wear hijab that generally consists of loose, long sleeve clothing that obscures the shape of the body and completely covers the arms and legs, and a headscarf of some sort. According to one woman:

I have great hope that all women will take off the burqa. . . . I want to go outside with Islamic hijab [which she explained meant a headscarf and long-sleeve clothing completely covering the body] because I am Islamic, but it is better for women to go outside without chadori and burqa. . . .

During the Taliban I was the last woman to put on the burqa. I did not want to go outside with it. But one day my husband said it was better to wear it when I went outside because I might get punished in the street. Now I wear it.

Why not chadori? Because I don't want to exchange my burqa for a chadori. I want to go out with just Islamic dress. I don't want to trade my burqa for a chadori.180

Similarly, another woman told Human Rights Watch:

The burqa is difficult and uncomfortable. If it were possible to go out just with clothes (and headscarf) this would be better than chadori and burqa. Now it's not possible for women in Herat to take off the burqa and chadori because we've worn it for a long time-since about twenty-five years ago because our country was at war and the communist government and mujahidin created problems so we cannot take it off.181

The hijab that most women and girls told Human Rights Watch they would chose to wear is akin to that worn by many Iranian women and places far fewer constraints on mobility than the burqa and chadori, which impede women's ability to live and work outside the home. Indeed, many Heratis have lived in Iran, which borders the province. Women and girls who returned to Herat from Iran after the Taliban fell and who were not accustomed to wearing the burqa expressed particular frustration: "I hate the burqa," a twenty-one-year-old woman stated. "It's hot because there is no hole for breathing. You can't see and you can fall down."182

Although many women and girls might, if given a free choice, choose to wear the burqa or chadori, they are not free to make this choice in Herat.183 Certainly for some women the primary enforcer of the burqa or chadori is the family and concern for their physical safety and reputations. A university student told Human Rights Watch, "I personally have no problems with taking off the burqa, but my family says it is better to keep it on until the situation of the government and Herat becomes better."184 Another woman said, "If we felt secure in Herat, we would take off our burqa. I thought that when Zahir Shah [Afghanistan's former monarch, who has a symbolic role in the Afghan Transitional Administration] was coming to Afghanistan that I would be able to burn my burqa. But right now we don't feel secure enough to take it off."185

However, other women told Human Rights Watch that they would choose themselves to go out without burqa or chadori, and that their families would support their choice, were it not for the government's mandate. For example, one woman said:

Right now it is impossible for me to go out with just Islamic dress. I have permission from my family to go with just these clothes, but I am afraid of the government because the government is against me and would oppose my doing this. Because I am a professional woman, the government is paying attention to me so I can't go out in just my Islamic clothes.186

Another women explained: "In my mind it's better that the government make an announcement about the burqa because most women are ready to take it off, but they are afraid of the government. . . . Most want to change, to take off the burqa, but really we are afraid of the government."187

Ismail Khan's government requires girls and women to wear the garment, and creates a climate which effectively sanctions harassment and violence by police and private individuals against women who would dare to go without it. Ismail Khan communicates the message that women should be completely covered through his public speeches and through the media, which as explained above, he controls. According to one woman, "During the loya jirga, Sima Samar [former minister of women's affairs and now head of the Afghan Human Rights Commission] said that it depends on yourself-if you want to take off the burqa you are free to do so. But women in Herat don't obey the Kabul government-they obey Ismail Khan, the head of Herat."188

In his public speeches, Ismail Khan personally instructs women to be completely covered, which Heratis interpret to mean wearing burqa or chadori.189 For example, as discussed below, when Ismail Khan twice called all local women working for international NGOs and the U.N. to a meeting he told them how to dress and behave. A woman who attended reported: "He said, `Keep your hijab and be far from foreign men.'"190

Ismail Khan's government also uses Herat television, the local radio station, and the only daily newspaper, Ittifaq-e Islam, to communicate orders about how women should dress and behave. For example, on October 5, 2002, the evening program was interrupted with the following announcement: "It is now declared to all Herat people that we strongly suggest that women do not put on colorful or vulgar clothes."191 Three nights later the announcement was repeated. In the second broadcast, the orders were attributed to "the Shura of Scholars and Clergy" [Olama va Rohanion], a new semi-governmental group.192 In August, a front page article in Ittifaq-e Islam argued that other problems should be addressed before women's rights in Afghanistan and urged women to cover themselves completely, stay separate from all men outside of their immediate families, and not appear in pictures.193
Instructions of this type carry weight: Herati women told Human Rights Watch that they learn how to modify their dress and behavior to avoid problems with the government through government-controlled local radio, television broadcasts, and Ittifaq-e Islam.194 "[We know] from the T.V. and radio. By the persons closest to Ismail Khan, including women, and the commanders. They spread out their orders to others."195 Another woman explained, "Sometimes things are said on the radio or T.V. about women-that women shouldn't work in foreign organizations."196 A Herati man told Human Rights Watch:

It's true-the television announced that, "Women should obey hijab." Only the hands, face, but not hair, not feet-meaning either the burqa or chadori. Women should not come out of their houses if they are not dressed properly. Women should not go to the park. They should not wear fancy clothes. It was broadcast on the television. They must wear either the burqa or the chadori.197

Based on these types of messages, a group of four professional women demonstrated to Human Rights Watch how they thought the government wanted them to be dressed indoors, even in private meetings, by roughly wrapping their headscarves low over their foreheads and tight around their necks and pulling their long sleeves down over their wrists. (All four were already dressed in long dresses or skirts with pants underneath, loose, long-sleeve shirts, and headscarves.) Another woman commented on the messages about women in the media: "Last week an article ran on the front page of Ittifaq-e Islam. A man wrote the article about everything that women should do [cover themselves completely, stay separate from unrelated men, etc.] When I read it I felt angry."198 She later added, "Of course, there are lots of articles [in Ittifaq-e Islam] that are disgusting for women. Lots of them."199

Government officials, including Herat's education department, administrators of government schools, and the police, enforce Ismail Khan's dress code for women-in the street, in the workplaces, in schools, and on television. Women and girls' access to these spheres, and their freedom of movement and expression, ability to work and study, and ability to participate in political decisions, are conditioned on their compliance. Although we did not interview any Herati woman or girl harassed by police solely for being on the street uncovered (indeed, every woman and older girl was covered), women and girls told us that they perceived this as a threat: for example, some believed that one reason police stopped and harassed the woman who was driving (in the well-known case described above) was because she was not wearing burqa or chadori. In addition, in September 2002 in a Herat city park, police mistook a Human Rights Watch researcher for an Afghan and aggressively questioned her driver about her attire. (The researcher was not wearing a burqa or chadori but was dressed in dark shalwar kameez and wrapped to the waist in a large scarf that completely covered her hair.) When the police officer determined that the researcher was a foreigner, he ordered the driver to leave the area.

Ismail Khan has given the newly formed boys squads "the right to stop women from `behaving against Islam'-to stop women from singing, dancing, or wearing fancy clothes."200 Private individuals also harass women who would go without a burqa or chadori. A teacher described the following incident from earlier in 2002 when women were more hopeful that the Taliban-era restrictions would be lifted:

Some students came back from Iran and were studying in my class. They asked me for advice about whether they had to wear the chadori or burqa, and I said it doesn't make a difference. They went without it for one or two weeks, then a strange woman in a burqa approached them in the street and threatened them. . . . They were afraid and put on chadori after that.201

In July 2002 an unidentified man with a long beard and a two-way radio, possibly indicating that he was in Herat's police or military forces, stopped a UNAMA vehicle with two female staff inside.202 The man verbally threatened the driver and a female local staff member, who had lifted her burqa over her face but had kept her head covered, and told her to cover her face immediately.203

Herat's education department promulgates a strict dress code for women school teachers that is enforced both by the department and school administrators. A teacher explained:

The department of education sends notes to each school saying that teachers must wear no makeup, must keep hijab, and must follow all the rules and regulations. I didn't actually see the note-the education department sent the notes to the school office, and the head director and supervisor told the teachers what it said.204

Another teacher said, "The government is always sending notes to the school to the teachers to keep our hijab. We are already wearing it, so why have notes all the time? I don't like to wear dark and long dresses but what else should we do?"205

Government officials have castigated teachers who have failed to follow the policy and have insisted that they change their behavior. One teacher told Human Rights Watch:

About two months ago there was a teacher who was showing a small part of her hair in front of her students. The head of the Herat department of education was visiting and said to her, "Why is your hair showing? You are not a teacher!" and scolded her in front of her students. It was very shameful to scold her in front of her students. A teacher is not a child.206

Aziza Sayi, the deputy of female education in the Department of Education, has personally ordered teachers to wear a burqa or chadori. For example, around June 2002 a teacher tried to go around without her chadori, but Aziza Sayi ordered her to put it back on.207 Another teacher confirmed this:

Many times this has happened. For example, some Americans came from the U.S. and had a gathering and we [teachers] were invited. When we were going there inside the bus, Aziza Sayi ordered us to lower our burqas (which some of us were wearing up [she motions to show it with the front rolled up away from the face]. When we reached the foreigners and she saw that they would see, she said, "O.K." and let us raise them again.208

Teachers told Human Rights Watch that they could be fired for violating the dress code.209 When we asked if they had been told this explicitly, a teacher responded "Yes. It depends on the Herat education department, not the ministry in Kabul because the Herat government doesn't obey the capital."210

Girl students must also follow a dress code. Younger girls must wear large scarves;211 older girls and women must wear a burqa or chadori. Even in the all-female classrooms, students are supposed to keep their heads covered. According to a primary school teacher: "Even small girls have to put on a scarf to be in school. They are studying in tents, and it is too hot to wear a scarf but they have to. My office and my [primary] school tell me that the students should put on their scarves."212 The police-trained boys squads also "are monitoring to make sure that girls don't come without burqa or chadori."213

Girls who do not follow the dress codes may be beaten. One student told Human Rights Watch that shortly after the Taliban fell and girls returned to school, she said to her class that they should take off their burqas.214

One classmate went and told the head director that I said this. The head of the school threatened to hit me with a stick. He said, "If you wear just a large scarf, I will hit you with a stick." He stood in the door of the school and showed us the stick, and he did hit one girl. So the next day all the girls had to put on the burqas again because we were afraid of the director.215

A teacher reported that in June or July 2002 another school's head director hit two ten-year-old girls with sticks in front of the other students because they were not wearing headscarves.216

University staff also regulates women's dress. The head of the university has prescribed how women should dress, which one woman described to Human Rights Watch as follows: "Girls have to come with hijab, and the scarf should not be too thin but thick. They should wear shoes with quiet heels that don't make a sound. For example, yours [thick rubber soles] are good; mine [hard, narrow heels] are bad."217 Faculty members also enforce these dress codes.

Laws or official policies that require women to wear burqas or chadori violate a number of fundamental rights protected under international law. By applying only to women, the burqa requirement is discriminatory, in violation of articles 3 and 26 of the ICCPR. It is also an arbitrary infringement on the right to privacy under article 17 of the ICCPR, which "protects the special, individual qualities of human existence, a person's manner of appearance, [and] his or her identity."218 The burqa's restrictive nature also implicates the rights to freedom of expression, movement, and association.

Discrimination in the Right to Work

Ismail Khan's social restrictions, his refusal to appoint women to key government posts, his public statements on women's role in society, and the overall repressiveness of his government, have the cumulative effect of convincing most women and girls that they are restricted from public employment opportunities, outside of teaching. Although jobs in the government and in foreign organizations might otherwise be expected to be open to women, Ismail Khan has appointed only one woman to a high-level government post and pressured women not to work for international NGOs and the U.N.

Women who can find work are subject to severe restrictions on their speech, dress, and behavior. Because women and girls have so few opportunities for employment compared with men, threats to their jobs carry even greater weight. While economic development in Herat would increase the number of available jobs generally, it will not improve women's access to them as long as Ismail Khan's government continues to impose barriers to women working. Similarly, while cultural attitudes play a role in restricting opportunities for women, these do not excuse additional burdens imposed by the government.

Women and girls in Herat city cited access to work as one of their top priorities in interviews with Human Rights Watch. A seamstress explained: "We need jobs that will increase women's abilities and allow us to work more in society ... But I can't get a job because I don't have any friends or relatives in the government. I hope that someday all women can find jobs easily and not just those who are close to the government."219 According to one woman: "Ismail Khan is always saying, `I have given women rights,' but these are not rights for women because we can't play on the field or work on T.V. programs. He just gives us the right to go to school but not other things-not for work."220 Another woman explained, "In Herat we are just allowed to study in school. The rights of women in Herat are that we can learn in the school, not that we can work because it doesn't look good. Our rights are limited to studying in school, not more."221

The series of conditions imposed by Ismail Khan's officials on women's ability to work includes that they cover themselves completely, stay separated from unrelated men, and do not criticize the government. For example, as explained above, teachers must follow strict dress codes and avoid all contact with foreigners. Afghan women working for international NGOs and the U.N., as well as teachers, told Human Rights Watch that they were afraid to criticize the local government in any way, to shake hands with men, or to be seen having any contact at all with foreign men.222 Around October 8, 2002, an announcement was made on Herat television that: "All the governmental offices should be separated by gender. This should be obeyed in all offices-private, semi-official, government, and nongovernmental offices."223 The orders were attributed to "the Shura of Scholars and Clergy" [Olama va Rohanion], a new semi-governmental group.224

Since the loya jirga, Ismail Khan has especially increased pressure on Afghan women not to work for international NGOs or the U.N. Other than teaching, these organizations offer some of the few jobs available for women, and women who work in them are not infrequently their families' sole supporters. In addition, Afghan women staff are absolutely necessary for humanitarian organizations to have access and provide aid to women.225

Around July and August 2002, Ismail Khan banned Afghan women and girls from riding in cars with foreign men at all, which makes the work of international NGOs and the U.N. more difficult.226 He also called all female Afghan staff of these organizations to attend two meetings. According to a woman who was present at the meeting:

Ismail Khan said to all NGO national women staff, "If you want to work for foreign organizations, be very demure, and do this and that, and be completely hijab. You must never go to the guesthouse of the foreigners."

One girl did something wrong in an NGO, and he called us and said, "Why do you do these bad things with the foreign organizations?" even though it was one person who did the bad things. . . . One lady was working with men and wearing a t-shirt and trousers without a long shirt and only a small scarf. She was not covered. He heard she didn't have perfect Islamic hijab. She was talking and joking with men, and he said it was not good for an Afghan lady to do this. He said, "Keep your hijab and be far from foreign men." . . .

He said: "This is the rule and regulation in Herat and you should follow it. It is not good that you are working with foreigners. You are Islamic girls and you shouldn't work with foreigners. If you want, I will pay you."

I said in my heart I would never do this because I want to know about everything. I don't want to stay at home and obey your orders. I am young and I want to increase my abilities. I am a human like everyone else. What is the difference between me and Americans and Europeans? You are not my father. I am young and I decide for myself.

But I cannot say this out loud. . . .

It was bad for women. I felt like we didn't have any rights. I became very angry and I couldn't sleep that night.227

In August 2002, Ismail Khan in a speech to the police, army, and intelligence forces repeated this message.228 According to a man who attended the meeting, Khan told them: "If you are men and have courage, you will not allow your wife and daughters to work in foreigners' offices. If it's for the money, I will double what they pay, but don't let them work with foreigners." He also said, "If the foreign organizations pay $100, I will double it." 229

Around the same time, Ismail Khan's government sent forms to national staff of NGOs and the U.N. asking for personal information, including name, age, date and place of birth, and education.230 The accompanying instructions directed the employees to fill out the forms and return them to the Herat government. The U.N. and the NGOs decided not to have their staff fill out the forms.231

Herat police have also harassed Afghan women working for international organizations. 232 For example, police have targeted women seen shaking hands and, in some instances, speaking with foreign men. 233

Although Ismail Khan has not actually prohibited women from working for international NGOs and the U.N., the pressure he has placed on them that he has not placed on men-his exhortations that they not work there, his appeals to their family members, and his accusations of moral impropriety-make it much more difficult for women to accept and hold onto these jobs.

In the Herat government, women hold very few positions. There is only one woman in a high level post in Herat, Aziza Sayi, who is a deputy in the department of education, in charge of female education. According to one Herati woman, "Women cannot hold positions in government because the power of weapons is greater than any other power and we don't have this power."234 Many women told Human Rights Watch that government jobs went to relatives and friends of Ismail Khan and his commanders, not to "common people."235

Essentially, Ismail Khan has sanctioned little work for women outside of their homes other than teaching. That he makes it more difficult for them to access work that might otherwise be open to them, for example by the restrictions on women and girls' freedom of movement, has even greater impact because so many other professions are closed to women in Herat. Human Rights Watch interviewed university students who despaired of ever working as lawyers, journalists, or engineers:

I am not optimistic. I want to be useful to our country and I want to be a successful journalist. But it is impossible for a girl to be a journalist. I know women who studied journalism, but they are teaching because they can't actually work as journalists. . . . Women are shown on radio or T.V. but they don't say the news or work on a movie. There are just short reports about women, not by them.236

Another said, "There are no women working as journalists now. Sometimes I am afraid. I think that when I graduate I will be unemployed."237

A university professor noted: "I don't know of any women working as lawyers in Herat. They can work in the university, and in offices they can be clerks. So they can work. There are no limitations to their working."238 Similarly, a professional women said:

When women finish in the law faculty, they can't become lawyers, only teachers. It's the same for engineering. They study in the engineering faculty, and when they finish they work as a clerk or a math teacher in a high school or the university. I just know one woman who actually works as an engineer and she works inside a government office.239

The International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR), to which Afghanistan is a party, establishes a right to work and to be free from discrimination in the enjoyment of this right.240 In addition, the International Labour Organization (ILO), in Convention No. 111 concerning Discrimination in Respect to Employment and Occupation, to which Afghanistan is a party, proscribes conduct, practices, or laws that have the "effect of nullifying or impairing equality of opportunity or treatment in employment or occupation."241 The ILO Committee of Experts (COE), a panel created to provide authoritative readings of ILO conventions and recommendations, has stated that indirect discrimination within the meaning of Convention No. 111 includes that which is based on "archaic and stereotyped concepts with regard to the respective roles of men and women . . . which differ according to country, culture and customs, [and] are at the origin of types of discrimination based on sex."242 Convention No. 111 allows only a "distinction, exclusion or preference in respect of a particular job based on the inherent requirements thereof."243 The COE has urged that such exceptions be interpreted strictly to avoid "undue limitation of the protection which the Convention [111] is intended to provide."244

Afghanistan's 1964 constitution provides:

Work is the right and precept of every Afghan who has the capability to do it. . . . The citizens of Afghanistan are admitted to the service of the state on the basis of their qualifications and in accordance with the provisions of the law. Work and trade may be freely chosen, within the conditions determined by the law.245

Discrimination in the Right to Education

Girls and women have gone back to school in Herat in large numbers. Indeed, many women and girls point to education as the most significant change in Herat from the Taliban's rule. When we asked a university student how things had changed from the Taliban's rule, she replied: "There are no difference. Well one difference that girls come out and study. Otherwise there is no difference.... The only change in the situation is that girls can go to school."246 "Only the doors to the schools are open," another woman told us. "Everything else is restricted."247 And a Herati man noted, "What women's rights mean in our society is to go from primary school to university. This is all their rights."248

While increased school enrollment is extremely positive, girl students still face restrictions not imposed on boys. Studying in separate girls schools, girls must follow strict dress codes as described above, enforced by school administrators and in some cases by the squads of boys trained by police; restrictions on their freedom of movement also hurt their ability to reach the schools. In addition, girls are not allowed to study music or play sports. A male music teacher explained, "Women don't take music classes. Like most things, no one announced it but people know."249 Girls who had studied music and played sports in Iran told Human Rights Watch that they missed these activities in Herat.250

Teachers and administrators at two primary schools and one secondary school confirmed that their students were not allowed to play sports; according to a school supervisor, the Herat government had prohibited it.251

Every school has one hour for sports, but girls don't play football or volleyball-they have to sit because Ismail Khan says it is bad for girls to play sports. . . . The students are really interested in doing sports, but they aren't allowed to do anything. They are eager to have a music class-to do something happy-but they can't. There are no sports, no music.252

Ismail Khan has explicitly condemned girls playing sports. A teacher explained: "Last week Ismail Khan talked about three girls who went to Europe for sports [martial arts]. He said at a funeral speech last week that it was bad for our situation, bad that three girls went to Europe for sport, that he is very worried that he has heard that the government sent three girls."253

Discrimination in employment, described above, diminishes girls' incentives to pursue education: although Ismail Khan claims to have given girls the right to education, he does not allow them to use it. According to an official in the Ministry of Higher Education, speaking both about Herat and elsewhere in Afghanistan: "Now, most girls don't try to go to faculties where there is no chance of work. Before, there were many girls studying to be civil engineers and there were government jobs available."254 Denying women and girls the opportunity to use their studies in effect makes a mockery of the right to education. "These things, these attitudes, mean that for the few women who have an education at the university-it is useless. If this is the situation, they cannot get a job in governmental offices."255

Herat University

Although women and girls are now, in small numbers, studying in Herat University, the discrimination they face there greatly constrains their participation and exemplifies the long catalogue of restrictions in Herat that combine to create an environment where their speech, behavior, and appearance are controlled and where the free exchange of ideas, central to a university education, is very limited. A woman who transferred from Herat to Kabul University in mid-2002 explained:

When I was studying in Herat University, all the lecturers and even the chancellor had very fundamentalist views. The effect was that the space for women was very closed, not at all open. . . . Have you been inside the Herat university? There was a small building with small rooms for girls to study in. It was a completely closed environment-there are no means for anything to happen there. We can't even call it a university. 0

One person responsible for the closed environment is Herat University's dean, Abdurrauf Mukhlis, the former head of Ismail Khan's religious police in the early 1990s. Ismail Khan appointed Mukhlis over the objections of the Ministry of Higher Education in Kabul, which tried, unsuccessfully to convince Ismail Khan to hold faculty elections for the post of dean, in accordance with ministry policy.1 Students were not happy with Mukhlis' appointment. As the former head of the religious police, Mukhlis hardly had the kind of background that would encourage free thinking or women's participation on campus. "You can imagine what he imposes," a student told Human Rights Watch.2 Students and professors reported that they fear discussing anything political, that interaction between boys and girls is suspect, and that women's behavior is tightly regulated.

Unlike in the universities in Mazar-e Sharif and Kabul, male and female students study separately, on Ismail Khan's order, over the objection of the Ministry of Higher Education in Kabul.3 An official in the Kabul ministry explained:

When boys and girls study together, it represents a symbolic change in civil rights because the university and faculty are symbols of institutions for civil rights. When they study separately it means that they do not have good civil rights, and it doesn't prepare women to work in an environment where there are men. Financially its good for them to study together because it is more efficient to teach everyone all together.4

In all of Afghanistan's universities, women and girls still do not enjoy access equal with men. When Human Rights Watch asked an official at the Ministry of Higher Education what would happen if only one girl were interested in a particular class, he responded:

In that case, she has to change her subject because it is not appropriate for one girl to be in a class with so many boys. We have faced this situation twice. Four months ago in Kabul and one month ago in Herat there were situations where one girl wanted to study in an engineering class. We convinced them to change their subjects and to go to a different faculty, to medicine.5

Women studying in the university also told Human Rights Watch that while male students had been allowed to study abroad in official exchange programs, female students had not, even to Iran.6 One woman explained: "Boys from Herat have gone. This is really wrong. And one of the countries is Iran, which is an Islamic country, but it was still not allowed."7

The Herat University administration imposes a restrictive dress code for women that, as explained above, is promulgated by the dean. A student told Human Rights Watch that soon after the first semester began in March 2002:

The teacher was giving a lecture and suddenly he stopped and told my classmate: "Look at your shoes with high heels. They make noise. You should be ashamed!" My classmate studied all week long and was a good student. She was so deeply ashamed that she couldn't write even a word after that. We all felt sorry for her, and it took a long time for her to feel better.8

Although the exchange of ideas is at the core of what constitutes a university, speech at Herat's university is tightly controlled by the local government. Political speech in Herat University is expressly forbidden, and students and teachers report that they fear retaliation if they criticize the government or the university itself, or even discuss current government policy.9 For example a number of university students said that while they disliked studying in a segregated environment, they are afraid to voice any complaints about it.10 One student related the following incident to Human Rights Watch:

A student told a journalist that we want to be in the same class with boys because it would be useful for us. The head of the university castigated her and said, "Why are you telling this to a journalist?" And it was an Afghan journalist from Kabul! She said, "Afghanistan is one government and so why is the situation completely different in Herat? In Kabul, the girls and the boys study together."

When she gave her ideas, this created problems. The head of the university said, "This is the last time that you will talk about these things to journalists." If she did it again, maybe she wouldn't be allowed to study. She told me all of this.

posted 29 January 2005 09:39 PM            

By Steve Kettmann | Also by this reporter Page 1 of 2 next »

02:00 AM Apr. 24, 2001 PT

That, at least, was the surprise conclusion that came bursting out of a panel discussion Monday on what people in the Arab world are looking for when they go to the Internet. In other words, they are like Web surfers everywhere else in the world.

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Today's the Day. Ramzi El Khoury, the founder of an Arabic-language Internet portal, kicked up the temperature on the discussion during the second International Summit on Internet and Multimedia when he cited a study that found that 80 percent of Arab-world Internet traffic heads for sex sites.

"I disagree with Ramzi when he says that 80 percent of the traffic goes to sex sites," said Khaldoon Tabaza, co-founder of Arabia Online in Amman, Jordan.

But El Khoury, who also lives in Amman, stuck to his guns, and elaborated on the point after the Arabic panel discussion. The cultural controls imposed on people living in the Arab world make them hungrier to explore the world of dot-com sexual thrills, he said.

"Of course there is a much bigger need in the Arab world because of the sexual suppression," he said. "If it's illegal, then people want it. It's not because they are oversexed, or their sexual needs are more than other people. But if you make something illegal, especially something as natural as sex, then it becomes more in demand.

The United Arab Emirates, like many other countries in the Arab world, block users from accessing such content -- or at least try.

For example, if a visitor at the Abu Dhabi Hilton types in www.playboy.com, he encounters a stop sign. A message pops up on the screen announcing that the site in question is on the "Emirates Internet Control List." The screen shows what looks like a large diamond-shaped stop sign reading, "Blocked site," flashing in English and Arabic.

posted 29 January 2005 10:38 PM            

Marzouk Ahmed Abdel-Rahim killed his daughter, chopped off her head and carried it through the neighborhood to punish her and regain his family honor after she eloped. Daughters are seen as money-earners because in traditional Islamic marriages, a groom gives his in-laws a dowry, the amount depending on their social status. Marriage is viewed as a business transaction, and the goods are the women - to be bought and sold by the father. A daughter who eloped deprives her family of dowry income. (Tarkek el Tablawy, Associated Press, 1998)