posted 19 June 2003 11:17 AM            

I would think the pyramids would be built in the old step style maybe using mud bricks and is very decayed.

There are small pyramids in Sudan, but I believe they are dated around the 18th Egyptian Dynasty.
http://www.m-huether.de/sudan/bajr.htm http://www.crystalinks.com/pyrsudan.html

posted 19 June 2003 05:14 PM            

The first tombs in Egypt were mastabas;The arabic name for bench.

''haven't heard anything about this either. do tell when you find the info. i only know of the pyramids in meroe, but from what i understand, they are much later than the step pyramid.''

The pyramids in Ta-Seti[Nubia] differ form the Kemetian pyramid,because the Nubian pyramids have underground chapels built in to them. The body was buried into a underground temple,where priests preformed rites.
The pyramids are unique to Nubia. The concept of the pyramid probally comes from pit tombs in pre-dyanstic Egypt and A-grop Nubia.

''Here is a link to Kerma of Sudan. The timeframe is about 2000 BC. The mudbrick complex is decayed.
<http://www.spicey.demon.co.uk/Nubianpage/SUDANARC.htm> ''

The complexes in Kerma are called defufas. The Defufas were relgious centers in the center of town made of un-baked mud bricks.

posted 20 June 2003 11:13 AM            

Pyramid Builder - Question
"Recently, a history professor/friend of mine told me that there was no real evidence that the pyramids were built using Jewish slaves. Questioning that, quick research seemed to support what he was saying. The only places which I could find mention of WHO built the pyramids was religious based. Meanwhile, many archaeologists seem a fairly certain that Egyptians themselves were responsible. It seems as though that, if the slaves did leave Egypt, Egyptians would be left with the remaining work, and archaeology would support that. But does that mean there were Jewish slaves involved?

That being said, does anyone know of any other resources there might be on the subject (apart from the typically inaccurate web information)? It seems strange that people have been taught for so long that slaves built it, when apart from religious text there doesn't seem to be any evidence of it. Am I missing something?"

There were over 33 replies to this post and the discussion took some turns and went on to other side topics. I think we all know the answer to the above mentioned question and I do not intend to discuss it further on this board , but someone replied with this (what I will call rediculous) claim:

"NUBIANS BUILT THE GREAT PYRAMIDS
The great pyramids were built by
Nubians from upper Egypt .These same
Nubians constructed similar pyramids
but on a less grander scale throughout
East and Southeastern Africa . The ruins
of these pyramids, some intact and some
not, can be found in modern day Sudan,
Ethiopia,Tanzania, and Zimbabwe. These ruins pre-date the pyramids in Egypt.
When the empire that we know as ancient
Egypt was formed, Nubian Ethiopia and
workers were commissioned[forced?] to
construct pyramids on a grand scale."

I promply replied with the following:

Re: NUBIANS BUILT THE GREAT PYRAMIDS
Nubian pyramids were built at the sites of el-Kurra, Nuri and Meroe.The first Nubian pyramids were built at the site of el-Kurru, 13km downstream from the Temple of Amun at Jebel Barkal. The site at el-Kurru contains the tombs of Kashta and his son Piye (Piankhi), five earlier generations, together with Piye's successors Shabako, Shabatko and Tanutamun, and 14 pyramids of the queens. Taharqa (c.690-664 BC) built his pyramid on the new site at Nuri, but his successor Tanutamun (c.664-656 BC) returned to the site of el-Kurru.These pyramids were built during the 25th dynasty in the Third Intermediate Period,much later than the step pyramid(2660 b.c.-3rd Dynasty, Old Kingdom). Although these pyramids resemble the Great Pyramid in the pyramidial shape they are distinctly different. Not only are the Nubian pyramids much smaller, the angle of these pyramids is much steeper than the 43 deg of the Giza pyramids. The purpose of the pyramids is different also. The Egyptian Pyramids were only tombs in the symbolic sense, where the Nubians actually buried their dead in their pyramids.However, there are more pyramids in Nubia than Egypt.Plus, Egypt's rule did not extend into Upper Nubia in the 4th dynasty, so please explain to me how the Egytians could have commissioned("forced") Nubian Ethiopians to construct a monument of this magnitude.

As far as pyramid ruins in Zimbabwe, I think you may be strectching it a bit. The earliest signs of man's presence in Zimbabwe date back to around 300 a.d. and the first stone buildings only appear around the 13th century. I hope you are not refering to the 'conic tower' at the Great Zimbabwe ruins as a resemblence to an Egyptian pyramid.

Someone else replied to this claim with the following:

"Since the Egyptians were a multi racial society I won't dispute the presence of Nubians there or that they may have had a hand in building it along side their fellow Egyptians.But Nubian pyramid building only begins after the rise of the Kushite State in 700BC, this state and it's successors Napata and Meroe are responsible for the pyramid building after the Egyptian religion spread to these people. It is in an effort to copy Egyptian styles that result in Nubian pyramids.
The Zimbabwes found all over southern and southeastern Africa are of a much latter date after the migration of Africans speaking one of the Bantu Languages to the region around 900AD.
Great Zimbabwe was built about 1300AD by the ancestors of the Shona or perhaps the Lemba.
The Zimbabwes are not pyramids nor burial compounds but administrative centers or "great places" used by paramount chief and kings.
At the time of the Great Pyramids of Egypt, 2250BC much of Africa was not under civilizations that needed or built pyramids but under control of stone age hunters like the San often called Bushmen, the Pygmy tribes or perhaps the Khoisan, Sidamo and Doboro peoples who were then hunters in east and southern Africa.
The Ethiopians are not connected to the Nubians culturally or linguistically and their civilization does not rise at Axum until 300AD and was often at war with the people of Meore who were the Nubians."

I asked the question in the original post here in wondering if there was any truth to the claim that there are Nubian pyramid ruins that predate Egyptian pyramids.

posted 20 June 2003 11:29 AM            

DYNASTIC TIMES IN NUBIA AND EGYPT

3100 BCE Unification of Upper and Lower Egypt by Pharaoh Menes and the dynastic order of the Old Kingdom. The conquest inscription of Pharaoh Djer at Sheikh Suliman in Nubia. Egyptian occupation and raiding against the Ta-Seti in Sudanese Nubia; border fort at Buhen. Hieroglyphics and huge pyramids introduced.

3070 BCE "Terminal" A-Horizon in lower Nubia. Copper reaches Nubia

2700 BCE Senefru (Dyn. IV) seizes 200,000 cattle and 7,000 slaves in raids on Nubia, thus beginning a period of hostile Egypto-Nubian relations.
2700-2100 BCE Period of supposed B-Group in Nubia, which is likely a decadent A-Group. Old Kingdom and First Intermediate trade expeditions to Wawat, Irtet, Setjiu and Yam in Nubia.
2500 BCE Atbai pottery tradition in Gash/Kassala area.
2500-2100 BCE Rise of C-Horizon and relative decline of Egyptian influence in the Sudan during Egypt's First Intermediate Period. Characteristic shiny black pottery with geometric designs. Fame for cattle rearing. Early small states in Nubia such as Zetjau, Medjay, Irtet, and Yam. C-Horizon sites at Amada, Aniba, and Debeiri.

Note the last sentence in 3100 bc claims huge pyramids were introduced. I cannot find any mention any where else of such eveidence.

This is an excerpt from a timeline from Ancient Nubia found here: http://www.thenubian.net/chrnology.html

posted 20 June 2003 11:33 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Neb-Ma'at-Re:

I asked the question in the original post here in wondering if there was any truth to the claim that there are Nubian pyramid ruins that predate Egyptian pyramids.

---

I think more research has to be done in Sudan (formerly Ethiopia/Nubia). Sudan has been over looked and of course we don't want to link Egypt with a black Sudan/Ethiopia/Nubia.

So far, the complexes in Kerma called defufas by AUSAR are the only ancient complex I can find.

This Swiss guy seems a little interesting. http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/32/022.html http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/kush.html

posted 20 June 2003 01:18 PM            

The only foregin place in Nubia was Lower Nubia,and the Egyptians considered it foreign.
I have heard a theory by Professor Bruce Willams that sugests that the early concept of the Pharoahs came from A-Group Nubia. I find his theory very interesting and reliable. A-Group Nubia was in contact with Upper Egypt,where they both tradeed with each other as earkly as 3800 B.C.

The Cranimorphical studies from the Naquda cemetary in Upper Egypt seen to match Nubians even more than Upper Egyptians.
Nubians and Upper Egyptians have been mixing since Nelothic area with the Khatoumn mesolothic.
Most surprising, evidence that early pharaohs ruled in A-Group Nubia was discovered by the Oriental Institute at Qustul, almost at the modern Sudanese border. A cemetery of large tombs contained evidence of wealth and representations of the rulers and their victories. Other representations and monuments could then be identified, and in the process, a lost kingdom, called Ta-Seti or Land of the Bow, was discovered. In fact, the cemetery at Qustul leads directly to the first great royal monuments of Egypt in a progression. Qustul in Nubia could well have been the seat of Egypt's founding dynasty.

posted 23 June 2003 02:19 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Neb-Ma'at-Re:
Has anyone heard of ruins of Nubian pyramids found in upper Nubia and Etheopia that pre-date Egyptian pyramids?

---

posted 23 June 2003 06:24 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kemet:
Kemet Writes: A pyramid is just a mound of earth and this tradition dates back to the paleolithic in the great lakes region of central Africa. The AE ELABORATED on this tradition by encasing their burial mounds in bench like structures known as MUSATBAS. Later Imhotep stacked the Mustabas and created the step pyramid. this in turn evolved into the traditional pyramid. As you can see, it is all just an elaboration and continum of traditions over thousands of years in tropical Africa.

---

Kemet I think I am going to have to disagree with you here on what a pyramid is. I would not categorize a mound of earth a pyramid nor would I categorize a pyramid as a mound of earth. We all know what mastabas are and we all know of Imhotep and the step pyramid. I live by a gravel pit where there are a lot of man-made mounds of earth, none of which I would call a pyramid. I am talking about distinct square based structures with 4 triangular sides that slope to a point be they tombs or not. My question still stands, has anyone heard of pyramid ruins in ancient Nubia that pre-date Egyptian pyramids?

------------------
Nesu.t-bi.t neb-taui Neb-Maa't-Re sa-Re Amen-hotep

posted 23 June 2003 06:46 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Neb-Ma'at-Re:
My question still stands, has anyone heard of pyramid ruins in ancient Nubia that pre-date Egyptian pyramids?

---

posted 24 June 2003 12:13 PM            

Didn't the ''Per En Heru'' speak of a primordial mound? I would agree with you,but it seems the evolution of the puramid might have came as a result of a mound. The metamorphisis of a pyramid structure can easily be traced back to pit graves in both Upper and A-group Nubia.

''am talking about distinct square based structures with 4 triangular sides that slope to a point be they tombs or not. My question still stands, has anyone heard of pyramid ruins in ancient Nubia that pre-date Egyptian pyramids?''

I am not sure that pyramids in Nubia exist that predate the ones in Egypt. I am aware that A-group Nubians had the same foundations that later evoled into the pyramid structures of the Old Kingdom.
Here is a reference

THey satisfy a principle that great Giza excavator Geroge Resiner {Every
substructure (grave pits)implies a super structure which marks the
site of the grave and provides a place where the oifferings to the
dead may be presented: As the tomb sup[erstructure,the pyramid was
the3 central element in an assembly that makes up the standard
pyramid complex}

Were the most basic element in two extreme casess,Tombs in Lower
Nubia<A group> contemporary with the late pre dyanstic Upper egypt
cosisted of pits sunk to the ground,covered by celining of sandstone
slabs,on which was constructed as a mound of debris encased in dry
stone masopnary,P{ottery was also placed at the base of the
mounds,some of which had specially constructed sides.

We then see the pyramids of Giza,as a more complex versions of the
same basic scheme on a gigantic scale.

Page 18

The Complete Pyramids

Mark Lehiner

posted 24 June 2003 12:52 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
''Kemet I think I am going to have to disagree with you here on what a pyramid is. I would not categorize a mound of earth a pyramid nor would I categorize a pyramid as a mound of earth''

Didn't the ''Per En Heru'' speak of a primordial mound? I would agree with you,but it seems the evolution of the puramid might have came as a result of a mound. The metamorphisis of a pyramid structure can easily be traced back to pit graves in both Upper and A-group Nubia.

''am talking about distinct square based structures with 4 triangular sides that slope to a point be they tombs or not. My question still stands, has anyone heard of pyramid ruins in ancient Nubia that pre-date Egyptian pyramids?''

I am not sure that pyramids in Nubia exist that predate the ones in Egypt. I am aware that A-group Nubians had the same foundations that later evoled into the pyramid structures of the Old Kingdom.
Here is a reference

THey satisfy a principle that great Giza excavator Geroge Resiner {Every
substructure (grave pits)implies a super structure which marks the
site of the grave and provides a place where the oifferings to the
dead may be presented: As the tomb sup[erstructure,the pyramid was
the3 central element in an assembly that makes up the standard
pyramid complex}

Were the most basic element in two extreme casess,Tombs in Lower
Nubia<A group> contemporary with the late pre dyanstic Upper egypt
cosisted of pits sunk to the ground,covered by celining of sandstone
slabs,on which was constructed as a mound of debris encased in dry
stone masopnary,P{ottery was also placed at the base of the
mounds,some of which had specially constructed sides.

We then see the pyramids of Giza,as a more complex versions of the
same basic scheme on a gigantic scale.

Page 18

The Complete Pyramids

Mark Lehiner

---

I'll re-post this:

Kadruka and the Neolithic in the Northern Dongola Reach.

BY Jaques Reinold

The cemetery KDK.21 : although still in the course of exploitation, it offers new data on the funeral rite. Esteemed unless two hundred graves, this cemetery has already allowed to excavate and register 243 graves! It is too early to provide an analysis of it but a simple presentation of data is sufficient to show the value of this site.

1) The first concerns the nature of these mounds, which were perceived, until now, as rests of former islands on the course of the ancient Nile. The kom KDK 21 would be the result of human action. This observation, in the course of analysis and of demonstration of a sedimentological point of view, likes the discovery of structures of combustion (hearths) situated in various levels, which give evidence of successive increases during the forming of the mound.

2) In the implications on the social cohesion necessary for the construction of such a hillock (of about 5.000m3), adds the possibility, by the study of the cracks of shrinkage, to find the original forms, before the increases, what would supply a very precise relative chronology for the establishment of pits and the dating of the different graves, which correspond at least to two main phases of use, according to the ceramic material.

3) If one adds the coverage of pebbles and little stones, which surmounts the mass of silt used for the erection of the hillock, one would have there, from the Neolithic, the origin of the tumulus which characterises most of the civilisations or 'Sudanese' cultures.

4) Re-use of pits are again frequent, but an oblong zone is empty in the eastern side. This anomaly may correspond to the presence of a some form of construction in perishable material, that has left no recoverable remains. Let us remind that the cemetery at el-Ghaba had already supplies an oblong zone, also east of the cemetery, empty of any grave. The hypothesis of a building bound to a funeral cult ( the ancestor of the chapels of Kerma?) is attractive, but remains to be proven.

5) The presence of stone blocks (funerary stela) raise in border of pits is another unusual characteristic at this period (Reinold 2000, 77). They are situated on the north/western sector of the cemetery. It is necessary to underline that these elements did not appear in surface. All were the object of a deliberate piquetage. Stelae usually meet themselves with the A and C Groups, or even in Kerma.

6) In many cemeteries we have become accustomed to find animal remains (dogs, sheep), linked with burials of human. With the KDK 21, we have individual pits each containing the remains of two dogs, buried as humans (on the side and according to an axis east/west). Furthermore, these pits, among four are arranged according to the main cardinal points.

Although not still explained, the place of the dog (its role) reaches here another meaning, indeed far from that of the simple offering material.

7) The main grave for one of the two phases was discovered, in connection with the group of the north/western sector. Here the pit contains two subjects (a man and a woman) with the position of the bodies apparently to indicating a greater importance for the woman (Reinold 2000, 71). This raises the question as to whether the male sacrificed at the time of burial? Several beaker for funerary libation and others items, defined as male material on the cemetery KDK.1, are present in KDK 21 with female burials. The major role of women, already demonstrated with the KDK.18, is confirmed here. It is hoped that a complete excavation will provide us with a greater understanding of the variations observed in these cemeteries.

8) Concerning the material culture, let us indicate just in this brief report, the discovery of an anthropoid statuette (Reinold 2000, 84), in veined sandstone, it was found in the grave of a teenager, the only funerary object in the tomb. It was first ground, then pecked before being completely polished. It is necessary to underline that the points of impact (piquetage) are the same nature that those found first on steles. This exceptional statuette distinguishes itself from all other figurines of the Nile Valley. In this work the craftsperson knew the limit of his material and without replicating anatomical detail was able to create an evocative example of the human form. Figurines linked to the concept of a mother goddess appeared in the Near-East around 8,000 years ago and are usually associated with the advent of agriculture and a sedentary lifestyle. It would appear in the context of Nilotic cultures however, that they appeared during a period when humans were still following to a large degree a nomadic or partially nomadic lifestyle. In addition the meaning of the extreme stylisation that exudes female characteristics without reproducing any of the commonly used symbols of female genitalia is still to be deciphered. The discovery of such a statuette in the burial chamber of a teenager again raises many unanswered questions.

Four dates obtained by the method of the residual carbon places one of the phases of the cemetery in a very precise position, between 4 790 and 4 720 BC (calibrated age).

posted 24 June 2003 09:58 PM            

"NUBIANS BUILT THE GREAT PYRAMIDS
The great pyramids were built by
Nubians from upper Egypt .These same
Nubians constructed similar pyramids
but on a less grander scale throughout
East and Southeastern Africa . The ruins
of these pyramids, some intact and some
not, can be found in modern day Sudan,
Ethiopia,Tanzania, and Zimbabwe. These ruins pre-date the pyramids in Egypt.
When the empire that we know as ancient
Egypt was formed, Nubian Ethiopia and
workers were commissioned[forced?] to
construct pyramids on a grand scale."

In this post this person is claiming that Nubians , not only built the Egyptian pyramids, but built pyramids in a number of regions in Southeastern Africa that predate Egytpian pyramids. He is not claiming the Nubians built underground tombs that were covered with a stone ceiling and a mound constructed on top of it or that such tombs were precursors to Egyptian pyramids.That would be understandable. He is clearly claiming that pyramids, some in ruins and some intact, in Southeastern Africa predate Egyptian pyramids.

Another interesting piece of information that I found does a similar thing:

"DYNASTIC TIMES IN NUBIA AND EGYPT

3100 BCE Unification of Upper and Lower Egypt by Pharaoh Menes and the dynastic order of the Old Kingdom. The conquest inscription of Pharaoh Djer at Sheikh Suliman in Nubia. Egyptian occupation and raiding against the Ta-Seti in Sudanese Nubia; border fort at Buhen. Hieroglyphics and huge pyramids introduced."

The last sentence of this excerpt from an ancient Nubian timeline (found at http://www.thenubian.net/chrnology.html )clearly states "huge pyramids were introduced" around 3100 BCE. It does not say huge underground tombs or mounds that resemble early mastabas or precursors to Egytpian pyramids were introduced around 3100 BCE. Again that would make more sense. Instead both of these pieces of information clearly denote "pyramids" as we know them to be. I am not suggesting that either of these pieces of information are correct. I am merely pointing out the source for my original question.

------------------
Nesu.t-bi.t neb-taui Neb-Maa't-Re sa-Re Amen-hotep

posted 25 June 2003 01:00 AM            

YOu might want to read Mark Lehiner's The Complete Pyramids for a more complete answer.

posted 19 March 2005 06:13 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ras Nubian:
Since the most fertile region of the Nile valley is in Nubia, it makes since that Nubian civilization pre-dates Egyptian civilization. I have seen evidence that the Nubian pyramids indeed pre-date Egyptian. Egyptian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Canean, Macedonian, Greek and Roman tribes are all a result of criminals, albinos and other children of inbreaders who were expelled from ancient Nubia. Also, only jet black African peoples could survive in the fertile Nile valley of Nubia since it is within the tropic of Cancer. Links to Nubian-Egyptian culture and religion are present with the Aborigines of Northern Australia to The Incas of Western South America to the Aztecs of Mexico and Central America to the Negritos of the Philippine Islands.

---

posted 19 March 2005 06:38 PM            

quote:

---

non-Black Egyptians are dark skinned, but with straight hair rather than curly.

---

What does straightness or curliness of hair have to do with skin color?

Are you trying to imply that there is an Indian ethnic element somehow indigenous to Km.t?

posted 19 March 2005 06:48 PM            

quote:

---

Since the most fertile region of the Nile valley is in Nubia

---

Actually most of Nubia is notorious for being hot and dry, with a hard bedrock foundation that prevents the Nile from spilling over and narrows the Nile Valley considerably.

posted 19 March 2005 06:55 PM            

Nice improvement Rasol.

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Actually most of Nubia is notorious for being hot and dry, with a hard bedrock foundation that prevents the Nile from spilling over and narrows the Nile Valley considerably.

This is one reason why Km.t always sustained a larger population than Ta Seti.

---

posted 19 March 2005 06:59 PM            

quote:

---

Roy wrote:

with a significant non-Black (and non-white) minority population in Lower Egypt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roy_2k5:
Are you assuming that Egypt was a non-Black nation? The truth is, it was a Black nation with a significant non-Black (and non-white) minority population in Lower Egypt. It is possible that the Egyptians expelled people that underwent vitiligo, just like many other dark skinned societies. If you include the indigenous non-Blacks of Lower Egypt as the banished then you are mistakened. The non-Black Egyptians are dark skinned, but with straight hair rather than curly. They look very similar to Southern Arabs and are not like the stereotyped or more 'pleasant' white Arab.

---

posted 19 March 2005 07:03 PM            

quote:

---

I'm surprised, but this is actually a true statement.

---

We're not surprised that you continue to make worthless observations being as you are a contemptible clown who in fact has no idea of what is, or is not...true.

So just go back to mindlessly cut and pasting white racist garbage fit only for the mentally challenged and emotionally arrested....as is your 'true calling'.

posted 20 March 2005 05:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
[QUOTE]
I'm surprised, but this is actually a true statement.

---

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 19 March 2005).][/QUOTE]

good point.