posted 07 December 2004 12:56 AM            

With all due respect, it is Exactly the opposite. I'm trying to challenge this Mock-History that has no place in Academia.

Many Egyptologist will honestly tell you that the Afro-Centrist are very Silly.

They espouse Phantom ideas that don't hold up to scrutiny..........Yet some are afraid to offend them, because it is not politically correct.

quote:

---

Originally posted by blackman:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ABAZA:
[b] This movement is also supported by some African-Americans, and others.......Don't Feed Your People Lies....Let the Truth Shine!!

---

Sorry, if the truth leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Stick around if you want more of that bad taste.

[/B][/QUOTE]

posted 07 December 2004 01:04 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ABAZA:
Rasol,

I hate to tell you this, but this is Hogwash.
There is no White Conspiracy to steal Egypt out of Africa or change the racial origins of the Egyptians. The truth lies right in front of your Face....just look at the first hand evidence that we have. Again, any reasonable person would tell you that you Can Not label the people as Black Africans.

This same concept is what is lost on many of these biased Afro-Centric historians. By the way, all this Afro-Centric thinking is very new and has not stood the tough scrutiny of modern academia.

This biased presentation Needs to Challenged, because it is False and not fair to the Egyptian People and the rest of the world.

I would put my trust in respected Egyptologist, who have spent decades discovering and documenting AE, rather some
Afro-Centric biased studies that are politically motivated.

Egyptians are not Black Africans.....

Africa is Multi-Racial....

North Africa and East Africa have always had
non-negroid groups living in those areas.

By the way, the genetic studies also point out the Nubians carry predominantely Caucasian genes.......how is that to dispute these false arguments.....

Ask Modern Egyptians and they'll point the way for you to the Truth......for example, DR. Zahi Hawas can perhaps clear your dilemma.

---

what study?fake ones?THAT i know.ancient nubians were unmixed black folks in upper and southern nubia,and mostly in lower nubia until outsiders started COMING in to marry lower nubians in late ancient times.intermarriage took place in a few places in northern lower nubia during the later-a group period,but not before.

Most nubians today in sudan,egypt and other places still have negriod features,and most are still unmixed full blooded black africans.

That study is most likely talking about mixed nubians in certain periods in nubian history in later TIMES,and not the unmixed nubians,BUT folks like you do not make that clear,and only you study or give studies on certain nubians.i could study some bones of some romans or greeks and say,well these folks and negriod features,so the greeks were black and romans,get the point.every normal study i seen said the nubians of the past are negriod,and if you look at kushite art and medievial nubian art you would say the same thing.every arab,greek and roman scholar has to talk about the negriod features of the nubians in earlier times when they visited the region,so most to all in the past had no white genes.

This is not a debate.guys like you are not happy just fooling around with egypt,now you got to fool around with a group that is clearly negriod,past and present.soon you will be saying that the folks of mali,the songhay etc,etc are mostly white.stop the non-sense.

posted 07 December 2004 01:08 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ABAZA:
Egypt2005,

Your question is right on the money.

The Fact is: Skin color alone does not determine race. It is a variety of factors that combined determine what race a person most likely belongs to. Of course, there are mixed-race people, but we can not judge others by bigoted American Racial standards.

Even today, in the USA, all Egyptians are classified as Caucasian.....check that out if you get a chance......

This is not done out of Charity, but it is the Truth.....that is what they are.

I know many Ethiopian, who don't like being called Black Africans, because they are Not Wholly Black...many are Semetic people, even their language is a Semitic tongue, related to Arabic, but they have been mixed with Blacks.

There are some people who only want to look at a person's skin color, just to call them Black, but that does not always work.

Dravidian in India are very very dark, yet they don't belong to the Negroid Race....Think about that for a minute!!

---

Okay then ABAZA! What in your mind constitutes someone who is "Negroid" then? Because you are right that there are many people of different colors in this world. So why should they ALL be put into just two classifications, such as "Negroid" & "Caucasoid" ???

posted 07 December 2004 01:14 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ABAZA:
Egypt2005,

Even today, in the USA, all Egyptians are classified as Caucasian.....check that out if you get a chance......

---

Again, many recent lower delta egyptians are from greek, roman, arab invasion, or inter-marriage.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ABAZA:

I know many Ethiopian, who don't like being called Black Africans, because they are Not Wholly Black...

---

Partially because of the negative assocition with being called black today, some people want to be anything but black. They want to be called mixed race, brown, or whatever to distance themselves from black. Sad isn't it?

However, I LOVE it and embrace it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ABAZA:

many are Semetic people, even their language is a Semitic tongue, related to Arabic, but they have been mixed with Blacks.

---

Wrong!Wrong!Wrong!
Ethiopians are black African people. It is better to call them Hamitic than Semetic. Even the Bible labels them as Hamitic. Their tongue can only be related to Arabic through the few loaned word to arabic.

What? They mixed with blacks. You must think the Ethiopians were once white. You got me laughing on that one.
Well, partially true. Black African people mixing with Black African people leaves Black African people, thus the Ethiopians.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ABAZA:

Dravidian in India are very very dark, yet they don't belong to the Negroid Race....Think about that for a minute!!

---

Strawman,
No one said the Dravidian are a negriod race.
Respect back to you when given respect.
Think on that a minute while you try to find data to support your views.

posted 07 December 2004 01:16 AM            

Thought Writes:

Race is a social construct.

{It is a variety of factors that combined determine what race a person most likely belongs to.}

Thought Writes:

I agree and the skeletal remains, language and genetic affinities of the Ancient Egyptians link them with Sub-Saharan Africans.

{Of course, there are mixed-race people, but we can not judge others by bigoted American Racial standards.]

Thought Writes:

Has no bearing on ANCIENT Egypt.

{Even today, in the USA, all Egyptians are classified as Caucasian.....check that out if you get a chance...…}

Thought Writes:

How does this relate to SCIENCE?

{This is not done out of Charity, but it is the Truth}

Thought Writes:

Please explain WHY it is the truth?

{I know many Ethiopian, who don't like being called Black Africans, because they are Not Wholly Black...many are Semetic people}

Thought Writes:

Semetic is a language that is rooted in the Afro-Asiatic language phylum. This language family began in Africa.

{There are some people who only want to look at a person's skin color, just to call them Black, but that does not always work}

Thought Writes:

posted 07 December 2004 01:21 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Orionix:
True also genetically populations cluster by geographic origin.

All human populations have constantly been in a state of flux, therefore we are all genetically "mixed".

Considereing the fact that Ancient Egypt was a sub-tropical climate i would say that the majority ranged from brown to dark brown in complexion.

---

posted 07 December 2004 01:23 AM            

Thought Writes:

When people use the term Black they are not addressing Melanin levels, they are addressing the fact that the Ancient Egyptians were Indigenous Africans derived from a Sub-Saharan substratum.

{Physically, they had multiracial features as Egyptians do today}

Thought Writes:

This is silly, race does not even exist. Cranial studies and skeletal remains indicate that Egyptians cluster with modern Horn of Africa populations like Somali. There was continuity in the general Egyptian population from the pre-Dynastic Badari down to the end of the New Kingdom. Modern Egyptians are indeed related to the indigenous Egyptian stock, however they also have substantial RECENT genetic input from the Greco-Roman period and the Arab invasion.

posted 07 December 2004 01:28 AM            

quote:

---

There was continuity in the general Egyptian population from the pre-Dynastic Badari down to the end of the New Kingdom

---

Could you possibly tell me what source you cited this from? I believe you cited an earlier article published in Man by Bery and Bery.

posted 07 December 2004 01:33 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
Could you possibly tell me what source you cited this from? I believe you cited an earlier article published in Man by Bery and Bery.

---

Thought Writes:

Good question.

Thought Posts:

"The results suggest a level of local population continuity exists within the earlier Egyptian populations"

Intra-population and temporal variation in ancient Egyptian crania.
S.R. Zakrzewski. Department of Archaeology, University of Southampton, UK.

The level of morphological variation within a population is the result of factors such as population expansion and movement. Traditionally Egyptologists have considered ancient Egypt to have a homogeneous population, with state formation occurring as a result of local processes without influence from migration. This paper tests this hypothesis by investigating the extent of biological relationships within a series of temporally successive Egyptian skeletal samples. Previous studies have compared biological relationships between Egyptians and other populations, mostly using the Howells global cranial data set. In the current study, by contrast, the biological relationships within a series of temporally-successive cranial samples are assessed.

The data consist of 55 cranio-facial variables from 418 adult Egyptian individuals, from six periods, ranging in date from c. 5000 to 1200 BC. These were compared with the 111 Late Period crania (c. 600-350 BC) from the Howells sample. Principal Component and Canonical Discriminant Function Analyses were undertaken, on both pooled and single sex samples.

The results suggest a level of local population continuity exists within the earlier Egyptian populations, but that this was in association with some change in population structure, reflecting small-scale immigration and admixture with new groups. Most dramatically, the results also indicate that the Egyptian series from Howells global data set are morphologically distinct from the Predynastic and Early Dynastic Nile Valley samples (especially in cranial vault shape and height), and thus show that this sample cannot be considered to be a typical Egyptian series.

posted 07 December 2004 01:41 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
Could you possibly tell me what source you cited this from? I believe you cited an earlier article published in Man by Bery and Bery.

---

Thought Writes:

posted 07 December 2004 01:49 AM            

See the following:

* Morsy, S. A. (1994). Beyond the honorary "White" classification of Egyptians: Societal identity in historical context. In S. Gregory & R. Sanjek (Eds.), Race (pp. 175-198). New Brunswick, NJ: Rutgers University Press.

Black or white? Egyptian immigrant fights for black classification
[Hefny]

July 16, 1997
Web posted at: 4:22 a.m. EDT (0822 GMT)

From Correspondent Joan MacFarlane

DETROIT (CNN) -- An Egyptian immigrant is suing the U.S. government because they've told him he's white when his entire life he's been black.

Mostafa Hefny was born in Egypt and has always been proud of his Egyptian culture and his African ancestry. But when Hefny immigrated to America, the U.S. government told him he was no longer a black man.

"I was not told by Immigration that I was white until I passed the exam for citizenship and then I was told I am now white," he explains.

Hefny initially laughed when told of his new racial classification, but he's no longer chuckling. He recently filed suit against the U.S. government to get his race classification changed back from white to black.

"It hurts me. It definitely hurts me," Hefny says. "It hurts me because I am unable to reconcile my reality as a black person."

In addition to the emotional hurt, Hefny says that when the government changed his race, they also changed his social status.

"Definitely, I would've had more opportunity for advancement and even for hiring had I been considered black," he says. "I was prevented from applying and requesting positions and other benefits for minority person because I knew I was legally white."
Origin determines race
[Hefny]

One of the problems with the naturalization process, in Hefny's opinion, is that race is classified by geographic location and not ancestry. That's part of the immigration process his lawsuit hopes to change.

The lawsuit targets Directive Number 15 of the U.S. Office of Management and Budget. The directive defines black as a person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa. A white person is defined as having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, North Africa or the Middle East.

"In the late '60s and early '70s, they found that different agencies were using different definitions for the same categories of people, and they thought it was important to have comprehensibility across federal agencies," explains Sally Katzen of the OMB.

The OMB is hoping to change the way they define races by revamping the troublesome directive.

"The principle we thought very important is self-identification," Katzen says. "I think that it is almost beyond dispute that an individual should identify himself or herself rather than have someone else do it."

posted 07 December 2004 01:54 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
ABAZA, Many of these guys are preoccupied by race. It has been drilled into them since birth that they are victims and that the evil white man stoled their heritage and has held them down. Anytime a subject comes up they look at it through a racial lense. Even though most of Africa is 5th world, (thats our fault as well)they bash all the people who have created what little prosperity and education they have. Instead of joining the modern world the try to create this ALTERNATIVE world view based on distortations and crummy scholarship. very few of them have any real interest in history at all. What they really care about is black ploitics and that is all. Because of this they will continue to pass up opportunities and stay on the losing end, where they have been for thousands of years. Think about it.

---

Africa as awhole is making progess,despite some setbacks in some states.YOUR comment shows that you have hatred in your heart.

posted 07 December 2004 01:55 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by kenndo:
YOUR comment shows that you have hatred in your heart.

---

Thought Writes:

posted 07 December 2004 02:04 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

I concur.

---

thanks,
that guy did not even mention a forth world.he had to make up a 5th one.
by the way,there is no such thing as a forth or 5th world.if any thing europe is the third world since civilization began somwhere else.this is another example of europeans giving folks made up names FOR states,and not all of africa is third world.

Some could be call second,and few could be called first,but the real third world in my mind is europe and america.

posted 07 December 2004 02:19 AM            

third world-the per capt income would be from
0-$2,800 something-that is lower income to lower middle income (verypoor to poor,but poor could mean you have some money)

second world-$2,801- 9,000 something-that is middle income (near rich)

first world-$9,000 something and up-that is high income ( rich)

gnp ppp is the more correct way to go if you look it up on the internet

posted 07 December 2004 02:28 AM            

“The original point you were inferring is that they were somehow Caucasian. Thus far you have provided no supporting evidence for this far fetched claim.”

posted 07 December 2004 02:33 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
Abaza, most Egyptians reject the US label of Caucasian. See the following about how Europeans have given Egyptians honary white statues to boost their own self image. Playing into this dark caucasian fantasy of Europeans only feed into racist anthropology that Blumeback started back in the early 20th century.

See the following:

* Morsy, S. A. (1994). Beyond the honorary "White" classification of Egyptians: Societal identity in historical context. In S. Gregory & R. Sanjek (Eds.), Race (pp. 175-198). New Brunswick, NJ: Rutgers University Press.

Black or white? Egyptian immigrant fights for black classification
[Hefny]

July 16, 1997
Web posted at: 4:22 a.m. EDT (0822 GMT)

From Correspondent Joan MacFarlane

DETROIT (CNN) -- An Egyptian immigrant is suing the U.S. government because they've told him he's white when his entire life he's been black.

Mostafa Hefny was born in Egypt and has always been proud of his Egyptian culture and his African ancestry. But when Hefny immigrated to America, the U.S. government told him he was no longer a black man.

"I was not told by Immigration that I was white until I passed the exam for citizenship and then I was told I am now white," he explains.

Hefny initially laughed when told of his new racial classification, but he's no longer chuckling. He recently filed suit against the U.S. government to get his race classification changed back from white to black.

"It hurts me. It definitely hurts me," Hefny says. "It hurts me because I am unable to reconcile my reality as a black person."

In addition to the emotional hurt, Hefny says that when the government changed his race, they also changed his social status.

"Definitely, I would've had more opportunity for advancement and even for hiring had I been considered black," he says. "I was prevented from applying and requesting positions and other benefits for minority person because I knew I was legally white."
Origin determines race
[Hefny]

One of the problems with the naturalization process, in Hefny's opinion, is that race is classified by geographic location and not ancestry. That's part of the immigration process his lawsuit hopes to change.

The lawsuit targets Directive Number 15 of the U.S. Office of Management and Budget. The directive defines black as a person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa. A white person is defined as having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, North Africa or the Middle East.

"In the late '60s and early '70s, they found that different agencies were using different definitions for the same categories of people, and they thought it was important to have comprehensibility across federal agencies," explains Sally Katzen of the OMB.

The OMB is hoping to change the way they define races by revamping the troublesome directive.

"The principle we thought very important is self-identification," Katzen says. "I think that it is almost beyond dispute that an individual should identify himself or herself rather than have someone else do it."

Although it seems the government agrees with Hefny in principle, it refuses to respond publicly to his lawsuit. He expects that response later this year.
http://www.cnn.com/US/9707/16/racial.suit/

---

Ausar,

I hate to tell you this, but this guy is Nubian and Not a true Egyptian. Nubians live in Egypt and Sudan and they are very distinct from the average Egyptian.

Also, Egyptians are not Honorary Caucasians...They are in fact Caucasian.

The biogted U.S. immigration rules used to not allow Afghanis to become U.S. citizens, but the Egyptians were never excluded.....I wonder why that was the case???

There is no Conspiracy...there are Blind people trying to lead others into a state of self-denial of the truth......

When are we Egyptians going to Stand up and defend our history from this Savage assault..

Think about that for a minute.....

------------------
THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!! ALWAYS LISTEN TO YOUR HEART & SOUL!! // PEACE ******* ABAZA

posted 07 December 2004 03:06 AM            

The article I posted was written by an Egyptian anthropologist named Soheir Morsy,and she explains why many modern Egyptians want the honarary ''caucasian'' status.

Truth is most modern Egyptians are not caucasians at all but a mixture of many different groups that came in and out of Egypt over and extended period of time.

Early Egyptologist like Sir Grafton Smith and Winified S. Blackman believed the early Egyptians were like the Beja people in Sudan but mixed with black slaves and became the current color which most Egyptians are today.

Also if you are Egyptian then please speak some Arabic and translate what I asked a couple lines up.

The people you should be cautious of are Egyptologist trying to claim blondes dominated the hiearchy of the early dyanstic Egyptians. Also early Egyptology totally rejected Egyptian Egyptologist. There really was a conspiracy by early Egyptologist against native Egyptologist.

Unfortunately you will probabaly write off every black Egyptian as a Nubian or Sudanese immigrant when the truth is Upper Egypt since pre-dyanstic times down to even the modern era has been full of visably black people. It's not only their skin color but many also have prognathism which is something very few caucasoids.

One thing you failed to mention also is that many Egyptians have kinky hair which is absent from so-called dark caucasoids like the Dravidians and some others you cited.

Stop being so emotional and refute people with citations and facts. No more non-sequitis or strawmen. If you disagree then refute it,and stop appealing to emotion!

posted 07 December 2004 03:06 AM            

The article I posted was written by an Egyptian anthropologist named Soheir Morsy,and she explains why many modern Egyptians want the honarary ''caucasian'' status.

Truth is most modern Egyptians are not caucasians at all but a mixture of many different groups that came in and out of Egypt over and extended period of time.

Early Egyptologist like Sir Grafton Smith and Winified S. Blackman believed the early Egyptians were like the Beja people in Sudan but mixed with black slaves and became the current color which most Egyptians are today.

Also if you are Egyptian then please speak some Arabic and translate what I asked a couple lines up.

The people you should be cautious of are Egyptologist trying to claim blondes dominated the hiearchy of the early dyanstic Egyptians. Also early Egyptology totally rejected Egyptian Egyptologist. There really was a conspiracy by early Egyptologist against native Egyptologist.

Unfortunately you will probabaly write off every black Egyptian as a Nubian or Sudanese immigrant when the truth is Upper Egypt since pre-dyanstic times down to even the modern era has been full of visably black people. It's not only their skin color but many also have prognathism which is something very few caucasoids.

One thing you failed to mention also is that many Egyptians have kinky hair which is absent from so-called dark caucasoids like the Dravidians and some others you cited.

Stop being so emotional and refute people with citations and facts. No more non-sequitis or strawmen. If you disagree then refute it,and stop appealing to emotion!

posted 07 December 2004 03:06 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by kenndo:
most modern egyptians look like the mixed race types of latinos,indians of india,etc etc.most in the past look like black africans,so stop the non-sense.

---

The truth is you're confusing the issue.

Modern Egyptians are one people....from Lower to Upper Egypt. There are some non-Egyptians in Egypt, such as the Nubians and the Nomadic Arabs in the desert regions.

As an Egyptian, I know my people quiet well.
Even the dark Egyptians, will tell you straight up...they're not Black Africans.

You can only cheat yourself....if you let others cheat you first.

Egyptians are Caucasians with some Admixture of Arab, Greek, Asians, Berbers, Nubians, and Black African. But, even with all this long list, the Egyptians of today are very similar to the Ancient Egyptians.

Some would even say that today's Egyptians are a little Darker than the Ancient Egyptians.......Feel free to check that out!!

posted 07 December 2004 03:27 AM            

quote:

---

And is this the reason why, people like ABAZA claim, that Black Nubians are predominately Caucasoid? I mean honestly to say Black Nubians are Caucasoid is absurd, too the highest extent!

---

posted 07 December 2004 03:33 AM            

quote:

---

Some would even say that today's Egyptians are a little Darker than the Ancient Egyptians.

---

posted 07 December 2004 03:51 AM            

quote:

---

The ancient Egyptians generally were neither black nor white.

---

quote:

---

They were mainly brown people.

---

quote:

---

Without a doubt, they were an African people

---

quote:

---

that had warm relations with their neighbors to the south and west

---

posted 07 December 2004 04:20 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
Abaza,are you living in Egypt currently?

Just curious about which part of Egypt you happen to come from. BTW,what does this mean:Masr Om Il Donya and Yella emshi mean?

[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 06 December 2004).]

---

Masr Om Il Donya = Egypt is the mother of the world.

Yella Emshi = Go away or let's go.

Just in case you did not Believe that real Egyptians do not agree with your Premise...

posted 07 December 2004 04:30 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
Abaza, are you a member of the Abaza family?

Ausar,

No I'm not,,,,,My family is from Beni-Suef,
do you know where that Egyptian city is?

Also, I'm would like to know if you live in Egypt or somewhere else, perhaps Europe??

---

posted 07 December 2004 04:45 AM            

quote:

---

Ask any Egyptian, no matter how dark he is, he will tell you flat out that he is not Black African.

---

quote:

---

As a matter of Fact, many modern day Egyptians have no idea where Africa is....
Think about that for a minute!!

---

quote:

---

You can paint the Egyptians any color you want, but they're still Caucasian and Mediterrean.

---

quote:

---

Your False labels don't mean much.

---

quote:

---

The truth is Egypt has always been a Mediterrean Nation....just look at a map

---

While we wait. Please answer a question: What is the meaning of "Ta Khent", and geographically to what does it refer, and why?

quote:

---

Let us stop being silly,

---

posted 07 December 2004 04:45 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
No, I asked you if you were a member of the Abaza family? Yes, I know where Beni-Suef governate is. Just answer my question please

---

Ausar,
I have already answered your question. Please my previous post.

Also, what race are the Algerians??

I'm curious as to where you live, if you don't mind my asking??

Thanks!!

posted 07 December 2004 04:46 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
No, I asked you if you were a member of the Abaza family? Yes, I know where Beni-Suef governate is. Just answer my question please

---

Ausar,
I have already answered your question. Please read my previous post.

Also, what race are the Algerians??

I'm curious as to where you live, if you don't mind my asking??

Thanks!!

posted 07 December 2004 05:00 AM            

Without asking you, I know you're not an Egyptian......and will Never Be one.

You're grasping empty straws of Psuedo-Science that should never be part of Academia.

My students deserve better and I would never teach them this Garbage of Fake History.

Whose Ego are you trying to prop....This is all self-defeating, but Blacks do not need Egypt in order to feel better about themselves. What they need is someone like Ward Connelly who understands this Dilemma and is actively trying to do something about it.

Blacks Do Not Need to trample over the Egyptians in order to feel better about themselves. Think about that for a minute!!