posted 02 October 2003 04:43 PM            

Why does it matter who the Egyptians were?

Were Egypt founded by SubSaharan Africans?

Most theories bent on finding non African origins for ancient Egypt are based on the principle that they were unique in the region and that there were no related peoples to them then and that there no related peoples living in Africa right now.

The truth is best given if we put aside the pictorial testimony of ancient Egyptians, the writings of Greek writers such as Herodotus who referred to them as black, by a comparison between the language and culture of ancient Egypt and those of peoples who inhabit the regions next to Egpyt.

First the linguistic evidence; some people have tried to classify it as a language in a class of its own; linguistic comparison (semantic and syntax) gives unequivocal proof that was a Hamitic language allied to the living languages spoken in the Sudan (the Haden Adowa) in Eritria (the Agaw and the Beja), in Ethiopia and in Somalia.

Some words and these not all general words - some those of religion found in the language of ancient Egyptians:

Ancient Egyptian Somali and Afar dialects (the same is true of others)

Ra Ra (The sun)

Neter Neder (divine being)

Hipo Hibo (the sound b doe not exist in Hamitic languages - gift)

Horus Huur (a stork)

Tuf Tuf (spit)

Habi (the Nile) Wabi ( a river)

Ar Ar ( a lion)

cb kab (shoe)

brq biriq (lightning)

ayah Dayah (moon)

dab dab (fire)

anka aniga (I)

su, asu usi (he)

Ka Ka, Kaah (spirit)

medu muud (liquid)

I can go on and on to hundreds of words.

Grammatical evidence is given by the structure of OSV (object, subject, verb), the use of the predicative particle wa, the use of the interrogative ma and others.

Unless somebody proves me that they borrowed a language, I would believe they spoke an African tongue much me and were Africans much like me.

Culturally, the similitudes between present day African cultures and that of ancient Egypt is undeniable and has been amply demonstrated by Sheikh Anta Diop. I would just give the following:

1) the use of the dance zaar, recorded on the Rosetta Stone, and alive in African countries nearest Egypt. It is also alive in Egypt to the dislike of Muslim clerics for whom it is a heathen dance to be stamped out.

2) The use of the head-rest (wooden usually) found in African societies as far as Cameroon and Chad. It was used then and now to keep elaborate African coiffure from crumpling during sleep. It is one of the most common articles found in ancient Egyptian sites.

3) The practice of circumcision including female circumcision.

4) The practice of sacrifice and ritual after a house is completed; this too exists to some in today's Egypt but is mostly practiced, much like the zaar dance by Egyptians of darker complexion.

5) The practice of washing and touching the bodies of dead persons.

6) From the vestimentary (dress) code: the loin cloth, the broad bracelets, the chest and neck ornaments, etc.

There are more but I do not have the time to give them all. For the rest, the pictures and sculptures, they can be seen and understood even by those who have not done much study in the subject or do not have the benefit of growing up in those cultures related to that of ancient Egypt.

I am not here to prove notions of race; my piece is to say that ancient Egypt did not fall from the planet mars, as I read in some popular magazines, nor were the ancient Egyptians a unique people without contacts or roots in Africa. I would add that ancient Egyptians were a mixture of the Africans who live next today's Egypt, namely the Nilotics found in the lower half of the Sudan who are today struggling to survive (the Dinkas) and the Hamitic group, present in the Sudan although losing there their languages (Numeiry the ex-president of Sudan lost his mother tongue as a child), Ethiopia and Somalia. That counts for the argument to that some ancient Egyptianss had straight or long noses and thin lips. That is typical of the African group known as the Hamites. There has always been diversity in Africa - the Pygmy has existed as a group, so did the Hottentot with the yellow complexion, the Hamite, the Nilotic and the Bantu. They are all african groups and not one of them, to my knowledge, has origins other than African.

Nabad (peace)

posted 02 October 2003 10:06 PM            

I differ in opinion from you on the ethnic stock of the Kemetians,and I firmly believe that Lower Egypt-the delta region was inhabited by Costal African types;while Upper Egypt-Southern Egypt-was populated by a tropical Africans.

From the archeological records we have present a culture in Upper Egypt starting at least 10,000 B.C. we have a cultural tradition known as Nabta Playa in Southern Egypt. Clearly,the people who inhabited the region were tropical African types,because the teeth remains from the burials attest to this. This culture directly leads up to the Badarian,Naquda I,II,III. From this era,we also see that the cattle culture of Nabta Playa are found in Old Kingdom rituals,and associated with a culture of pasotrial people.

The other convincing evidence is the findings of the Qustal Sudan that shows a pharoanic crown that indicated that A-group Nubians might have founded Ancient Kemetian culture. Professor Bruce Willams of the Oreintal Insitute stands by this hypothesi. Both Pre-Dyanstic Upper Egypt and A-gropup are no different from each other,and shared many cultural simialrities.

posted 03 October 2003 01:03 PM            

Article 47.

posted 03 October 2003 04:12 PM            

I donot doubt that Ancient Egyptian words can be seen in many unrelated languages that people donot expect. In Middle Egyptian there are Akkadian words,Semetic words,and various other words,but this is only because of trade. Kmt always had close relations and traded with other African people that also included Africans living around the Red Sea coast of Punt. In fact this region is called Ta-Ankhu[land of the shinning ones or ancestors] or pewne[Punt]

Natually,Kemetian language being an Afro-Asiatic language will have much in common with other Afro-asiatic language since they all spring from a common source about 10,000-6,000 years ago from the highlands in Ethiopia. This is according to Joseph Greenberg and Christopher Ehret both of whom are linguist at UCLA.

What is important is to regonize the cultral affilations that exist in Ancient Kmt with other African groups of people. The cultural resemblence is stronger than most mainstream Egyptologist will aknowleadge with the exception of Frank Joseph Yurco.

[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 03 October 2003).]

posted 03 October 2003 08:17 PM            

I don't know about recreating the proto-Egyptian,but I do know that people have attemped to reconstruct the Afro-Asiatic language. You might want to read Christopher Ehret's Proto-Afroasiatic. He and Greenberg have classified different languages into one big sub-group called Afro-Asiatic. This includes Coptic[Ancient Egyptian],Chadic,Oromotic[Spoken in Ethiopia] Cushic[spoken in Somalia,Ethiopia,and Ertreia],Amazingh[berebr divided into Tamelshek,Siwi,Kaybele,Riffi,Mzabic,and others ],and the only other two spoken outside of Africa is Hebrew and Arabic.

posted 04 October 2003 01:44 PM            

People donot knoe for sure where exactly Punt ius located,but many have evidence it is possibly Somalia,Eretreia,Dijbouti,or parts of Sudan on the Red Sea coast. Most likely the people who lived there were the Oromo people in Ethiopia who are the majority and less mixed with Yemani himayrite than the Amharan.

About two years ago,I read an article that told about ab Kemetian per-aa that lived in this city they discovered in Somalia. I have heard no more about this,but I would like to find out more.

One of the key crops in Ethiopia is teff which has been found in Pyramid blocks of Dahsur. Teff can only grow in Ethiopia not anywhere else.

I hope this helps.

posted 04 October 2003 06:42 PM            

Empress Arrawelo

According to the Somali oral tradition, Arrawelo was a powerful ruler belonging to one of the then dominant tribes of Puntland (Somalia). She might have ruled Somalia around 1000 B.C. or so. According to folklore, she ruled for not less than 70 or 80 years. She loved power and wanted to remain the empress of the country till her death. She was very suspicious of men and hated them. At one stage, she ordered that any son born in any family in the kingdom must be castrated so that he may not be able to procreate.

She got married and a daughter was born to her. In due course her daughter grew up, got married and gave birth to a son. Empress Arrawelo wanted her daughter's son to be killed. Her daughter prayed to her to let him live till the time he could sit. Arrawelo agreed to her request. In about a year, when the baby could sit easily, the Empress wanted him to be killed. Her daughter requested her to let him live till he could stand. This request was also granted. Then the daughter requested her to postpone his killing till he could walk. Then she requested his killing to be postponed till he could talk. Later on she requested her to let him help her in collecting water, fuel and food etc. which were necessary for her being a mother, till he came of age at 18. Out of her fondness for her daughter, the Empress agreed to this request also.

In the meanwhile, the daughter secretly trained her adolescent son to defend himself.

Then a severe drought took place. All the wells dried up. One day all the people came with their animals to an important well, which had plenty of water for men and animals. But Arrawelo ordered that nobody could take even a drop of water till she had completed her bath. A big leather tub was brought. People started drawing out water from the well and pouring it in the Empress' bath tub. They let her bathe throughout the day, but she did not finish her bath. The people were getting tired and restless due to the sun, thirst and labour, but she kept saying again and again: "This particular finger has not yet been cleaned, that one has not yet been cleaned." People suffered the torture mutely. But the Empress' eighteen year old grand son (daughter's son) could no longer bear this cruelty, hatred and hypocrisy of Arrawelo. He become very angry and suddenly struck her with his weapon (spear) and killed her. When she was alive, she used to speak and shout like men, but when her grand-son struck her she cried out "Ba'aayee" ("I have lost myself").

According to the Somali language, when a Somali girl or woman suffers any loss she expresses it by using this word "Ba'Aayee"; but when a Somali boy or male suffers any loss, he uses another word "Tota'yaa" ("I have been helpless, I have become without my tribe, the love and unity or grace of my people are lost, I am deserted and broken.")

Arrawelo was a very secretive, suspicious and a cruel he-woman having both the characteristics of female as well as a male and she spoke very harshly and acted very hard-heartedly. She was a real terror to all her male subjects who shivered at the sight of her and were rendered as cowards before her. They had all along been thinking, she was a male. But when she uttered her last words "ba'aayee", then all of them of at once discovered that she (Arrawelo) was not a man but a woman. They congratulated the boy for killing her.

posted 03 November 2003 09:28 AM            

I am not here to prove notions of race; my piece is to say that ancient Egypt did not fall from the planet mars, as I read in some popular magazines, nor were the ancient Egyptians a unique people without contacts or roots in Africa. I would add that ancient Egyptians were a mixture of the Africans who live next today's Egypt, namely the Nilotics found in the lower half of the Sudan who are today struggling to survive (the Dinkas) and the Hamitic group, present in the Sudan although losing there their languages (Numeiry the ex-president of Sudan lost his mother tongue as a child), Ethiopia and Somalia. That counts for the argument to that some ancient Egyptianss had straight or long noses and thin lips. That is typical of the African group known as the Hamites. There has always been diversity in Africa - the Pygmy has existed as a group, so did the Hottentot with the yellow complexion, the Hamite, the Nilotic and the Bantu. They are all african groups and not one of them, to my knowledge, has origins other than African.

This is next opinion in this spirited discussion which is not proved in a scientific way but somebody must say it. Itīs interessant that my father is black African and so for majority of Americans and Europeans Iīm black but I donīt agree with that. I think afrocentrist claim that the ancient Egyptians were black is absolute nonsens(even related with Nilots in southern Sudan!).They were mixed and perhaps more mediterrean than negroid alike modern Egyptians which are their direct descendants.

posted 04 November 2003 09:56 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayazid:
Originally posted by Cush_R:

I am not here to prove notions of race; my piece is to say that ancient Egypt did not fall from the planet mars, as I read in some popular magazines, nor were the ancient Egyptians a unique people without contacts or roots in Africa. I would add that ancient Egyptians were a mixture of the Africans who live next today's Egypt, namely the Nilotics found in the lower half of the Sudan who are today struggling to survive (the Dinkas) and the Hamitic group, present in the Sudan although losing there their languages (Numeiry the ex-president of Sudan lost his mother tongue as a child), Ethiopia and Somalia. That counts for the argument to that some ancient Egyptianss had straight or long noses and thin lips. That is typical of the African group known as the Hamites. There has always been diversity in Africa - the Pygmy has existed as a group, so did the Hottentot with the yellow complexion, the Hamite, the Nilotic and the Bantu. They are all african groups and not one of them, to my knowledge, has origins other than African.

This is next opinion in this spirited discussion which is not proved in a scientific way but somebody must say it. Itīs interessant that my father is black African and so for majority of Americans and Europeans Iīm black but I donīt agree with that. I think afrocentrist claim that the ancient Egyptians were black is absolute nonsens(even related with Nilots in southern Sudan!).They were mixed and perhaps more mediterrean than negroid alike modern Egyptians which are their direct descendants.

---

posted 04 November 2003 01:31 PM            

As far as I can tell there are two posters from two different servers who may be, or may not be related, who make up no less than 6 different log ons. Anyone with more than one log on I think could be considered suspect.

I have seen that cut and pastes from Eurocentric and white sites have been removed on at least one occacion, in the last six months, but some of these posts we have seen in the last weeks come from, what I consider racist sites and contain racist statments, have been alowed. I could understand however if this feeling was not shared by others on the board. Thats why I became so angry during the Wally posts.

Their purpose is very clear!

posted 04 November 2003 04:35 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:
guys, i'm beginning to get annoyed with this so called multiple login nonsense. i don't need to read about this in posts. if someone has more than one login (not that i'm saying anyone does), why do i care? knowing that does nothing for me. and it adds nothing to the board to accuse people of having more than one log in. and most importantly, what does that have to do with egypt?

ausar is the moderator and he hasn't said anyhting about it. as far as i'm concerned, that's an issue for the moderator. i don't need to know about it. if you have personal issues with someone, the whole board doesn't need to know about it.

---

There is nothing personal about it. It’s an issue for us all if the use of multiple logins is used to prompt argument, not debate. Its spam and propaganda.

I have tried to make people aware of this without being specific, and it’s far from being nonsense accusations.

I could give you names, but as you said it is an issue for Moderators, but it is also our responsibility to bring it too their attention.

Ignore it if you will.

posted 04 November 2003 04:35 PM            

Ozzy,I really cannot police a person that has multiple log-in names,nor do I have the time to do such a task. My central authority does not allow me to ban people from the forum. The only other authority I have is to eliminate and erase post. Other than these tasks,I have no power to ban a person from the forum.

However,I like to let every body render his/her opinion without censorship. The only reason I deleated the post direct to that particular website is because it would probally attract people who would flood the board with race posts. Right know I am trying to stop the rapid postsing about Race,so this is one of the reasons I delated this post. I did not deleate Wally's post because I wanted to debate him. If you notice I did debate wally,and he has yet to return under his name.

The other reasons for not erasing posts is time related Right know I am attending school that takes up most of my time. I donot have enough time to police or watch over certain fringe elements that might be desuruptive. So donot blame he if the behavior of a person is disruptive.

The other thing I might sugest to people posting here is try to contribute to more Egyptology questions;as opposed to the race threads. I relize the ethnciity of the ancient Egyptians is a pressing,contrversial,and much debated subject,but there is just more to Egypt than these discussions. Try to contribute more threads that have to do with Egyptology,or perhaps make threads asking questions directed towards me. Any question directed to me about ancient Egypt or modern Egypt I will happily answer.

posted 04 November 2003 04:56 PM            

Egypt was an African civlization that had very much in common with other parts of Africa. From the spirtual concepts down to the everyday culture of the people who lived here. Althrough,admidatley,the population of Kemet[Egypt] was somewhat hetrogenous. You had a clearly black population in Southern Egypt starting as far back as the pre-dyanstic Badarian culture. Even the remains at the megalithic site called Nabta Playa showed affinities with so-called ''sub-Saharan'' populations While in the north was more of a mixture of elements ranging from Costal African culture to even Syro-Palistinean culture. The Maadi culture acted as a type of intermediary between Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt. The cultures of the north were the Fayium,Merimada,el Omari,and Maadi.

Eventually,over time,both Egyptians from Lower and Upper Egypt mixed and assimilated with each other. Once Narmer united both Upper and Lower Egypt he took wives from the provinces of the Delta which legitmized his rule. It shoulw be noted that,however,it was the Southern Uppper Egyptians who united Upper and Lower Egypt. This is not to negate the fact that Lower Egyptians played not part,but to explain that the cultural flow seemed to have came from the south as opposed to the North.

The first three dyansties begining with Narmer were all based in Southern Upper Egypt. Later dyansties like the fourth dyansty possibly came from El Minya[Middle Egypt] This is why you get various phenotypes in the sculpture of the fourth dyansty rulers. Even then,we have high officals of this period that clearly had Southern Upper Egyptian origins.

As scienitifc litterature on the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians, I recommend Shomarka Keita. Keita is a profession bio-anthropologist who argues for the Sudan-Sahro origins of the ancient Egyptians. His work is peer-reviwed,and well recieved in mainstream circles. His professor,Larry Angel, also agrees with Keita's conclusions.

posted 04 November 2003 05:27 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ozzy:
Nice post, I was going to ask some questions until I realised I had read this before. I dont mind reading quotes but please "Quote" it.
http://www.mdcbowen.org/p2/sf/

Article 47.

The question I was to ask maybe someone else can answer. Hhow knows what the closest living language is to Ancient Egyptian, I read a number of theories from Kkmt-basque, Kmt-Ainu, The click language of the bush men, Hebrew ETC ETC.all claim to have hundreds of linked words. All of which are convincing. I however came accross one person who pointed out that any two languages could statisticaly be found to have up to hundreds of simular words. The accepted criteria is a thousand word assosiations to be considered related, as well as structure relation, A big change from the 19th century linguistic supergroups that were boxed up then.

---

posted 04 November 2003 05:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
Okay,let's cool down! This is really not a place people should fight amungst each other. I can understand if a person has really personal feelings about the subject they are debating,but let's keep the conversation level civil.

Ozzy,I really cannot police a person that has multiple log-in names,nor do I have the time to do such a task. My central authority does not allow me to ban people from the forum. The only other authority I have is to eliminate and erase post. Other than these tasks,I have no power to ban a person from the forum.

However,I like to let every body render his/her opinion without censorship. The only reason I deleated the post direct to that particular website is because it would probally attract people who would flood the board with race posts. Right know I am trying to stop the rapid postsing about Race,so this is one of the reasons I delated this post. I did not deleate Wally's post because I wanted to debate him. If you notice I did debate wally,and he has yet to return under his name.

The other reasons for not erasing posts is time related Right know I am attending school that takes up most of my time. I donot have enough time to police or watch over certain fringe elements that might be desuruptive. So donot blame he if the behavior of a person is disruptive.

The other thing I might sugest to people posting here is try to contribute to more Egyptology questions;as opposed to the race threads. I relize the ethnciity of the ancient Egyptians is a pressing,contrversial,and much debated subject,but there is just more to Egypt than these discussions. Try to contribute more threads that have to do with Egyptology,or perhaps make threads asking questions directed towards me. Any question directed to me about ancient Egypt or modern Egypt I will happily answer.

---

Ausar, I didnt blame you, I have mearly said you had the means to confirm what I was saying, but in the end it is an issue for the moderators.

And as you know I have contributed to yours and started my own threads with subjects relating to other things besides race.

I had even suggested as an attemp to keep the subject where it belongs and in check to start a seperate thread. The suggestion recieved no responces. Keeping it out of other subjects, would I feel, slow down the spam and propaganda, as those new threads would not be responded to. No responce no interest.

I am disapointed however that you did not consider material on the site mentioned as racist and a possible danger to this site.

His posts were propaganda and an attept to promote his own site, as clearly shown in his second post,

Quote"Wally I am delighted with the responses to my post "What Race Were the Egyptians?

"People who believe that the racial identity of the Ancient Egyptians is debatable have either not visited my website http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo or are unaware of the existance of the Ancient Egyptian "mural of the races" (They too were, like Americans, "obsessed" with race)."

There was no debate with him, he simply cut and `past from his site, which is not even original material anyway. he responded to none of the questions asked of him Nor points charged:

posted 04 November 2003 06:12 PM            

I agree, but how often have we seen the opposite agendas supported here. How often has the word Eurocentriic been used to describe individuals, Europeans, Caucasion or even whites in general who support a non ''Black Egypt'' point of view.

Respect given is respect returned.

posted 04 November 2003 08:57 PM            

Before you posted her,we had the poster Thor who was allowed to express his views without ad hominem attacks. Even before Thor we had a man claiming to Egyptian that argued against non-black Egypt,and he was not called names.

This issue is rather a moot point that has been discussed in many scholary circles. Most modern anthropologist,Egyptologist,and various other scholars will tell you Egypt was an African culture with a melting pot of assorted people.

posted 04 November 2003 09:07 PM            

Relax,don't take my sugestion so personal. I was not personally adressing you,but simply talking to all the other posters of the forum. You have contributed to various threads besides race,so if you know this I was talking to people who are not contributing to other threads.

''I had even suggested as an attemp to keep the subject where it belongs and in check to start a seperate thread. The suggestion recieved no responces. Keeping it out of other subjects, would I feel, slow down the spam and propaganda, as those new threads would not be responded to. No responce no interest.''

Okay,I did not see this suggestion. I have been very busy with school recently with writting a paper. This is a good idea.

''There was no debate with him, he simply cut and `past from his site, which is not even original material anyway. he responded to none of the questions asked of him Nor points charged:''

Yes,he cut and pasted from his own site. Personally,I thought he was the man who has a site called the Pyramids are not a mystery. This is why I said I debated him,but,apprently,he did not respond with coherant answers.

posted 04 November 2003 09:46 PM            

This is correct. Coptic is divided into regional dialects of Sahidic[Upper Egyptian],Boharic[most common Coptic language and most Hellenized],Fayiumic,Memphic,and etc.

Actually,many ancient Egyptian words even remain in Egyptian Colloqwuial Arabic. Especially in the more isolated branches like Sa3eadic Arabic in Egypt. Some linguist claim to can take Sa3eedi words and match them with Sahidic Coptic.

posted 04 November 2003 11:13 PM            

ausar, you yourself have mentioned that the explosion in the population of lower egypt has been fairly recent, occurring in the past century. how can these people possibly be pharonic descendants if they just recently arrived in egypt? that's like saying modern american immigrants can claim native american descent.

posted 05 November 2003 11:31 AM            

You are contradicting yourself and your point is very confusing.
Ozzy, I think this person is "fake" and is logging in under many names. Trying to stir the race pot

posted 05 November 2003 02:01 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayazid:
Originally posted by Keino:

You are contradicting yourself and your point is very confusing.
Ozzy, I think this person is "fake" and is logging in under many names. Trying to stir the race pot

Keino, I donīt know who about you are speaking, because Ayazid is my lone name on this phorum.Futhermore, I think that I am not contradicting myself and my point is not confusing.
I understand that for some African-Americans is origin of the ancient Egyptians extremely important and this is for them certain obsession, but this is perhaps reaction on the opposite "white-caucasoid" explanation of the Ancient Egypt, which is anyway facile.
I think that if are modern Egyptians rather mediterrean than black, the ancient ones were similar and there are not big differences between them, but itīs undeniable fact that between modern Egyptians is certain negroid admixture, especially in the Upper Egypt, which distinguish them from the other Arabs.Itīs also likely that these partly negroid people from the Upper Egypt had big contribution on the creation of the the ancient Egypt,how claims Aussar, but it doesnīt mean that the old Egypt was "black" civilization and the ancient Egyptians were "black" people.The reality is simply neither "black" or "white", itīs much more complicated than some people suggest.

---

posted 05 November 2003 02:38 PM            

Ahmed al-Badwai[c. 1199-1276] at Tanta in the Egyptian Delta,subject of cult which scholars have seen survivals in a new form of the ancient Egyptian whorship of Bastet.

Page 156-157

History of the Arab Peoples

Albert Hourani

posted 05 November 2003 06:16 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:
cool, let's get back to debating. as i stated many times before, i'm not sure most modern egyptians can claim pharonic decent. in fact i'd say many couldn't. i'd agree that most upper egyptians can, but no one this board has yet supported an argument that lower egyptians can claim pharonic decent except for the "arab invasions were small in number, and thus did not have a major impact on the population". i completely disagree with that, as i have posted before. read my "diop vs. hawass" post for more info.

ausar, you yourself have mentioned that the explosion in the population of lower egypt has been fairly recent, occurring in the past century. how can these people possibly be pharonic descendants if they just recently arrived in egypt? that's like saying modern american immigrants can claim native american descent.

and for the record, i don't believe the decent issue really says anything about the individuals "claim" to ancient egypt. ancient egypt, like any other ancient civilization, should belong to everyone regardless of whether ramses II is in your family tree. hell, for all we know the whole world might be descended from ramses II. but it's pretty clear to me that today, ancient egypt belongs to western scolarship, evident in the greek names used, the european depictions, it's removal from contenental africa, etc. this is why this topic is debated today. the race issue is a silly for kemites as it is for us today. it's time we stopped lumping every topic we disagree on into the race category.

---

The definition of "pharonic decent" please. RE: are we all talking about the same time period and the same people.

I think Ausar was refering to the birth rate not migration, over the last 100 years..

So Kem you dont believe as Ausar has just stated that "Most modern anthropologist,Egyptologist,and various other scholars will tell you Egypt was an African culture with a melting pot of assorted people.

posted 05 November 2003 10:29 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
Some ancient Egyptian survials do exist in Lower Egypt under the guise of Islamic sufi sects.

Ahmed al-Badwai[c. 1199-1276] at Tanta in the Egyptian Delta,subject of cult which scholars have seen survivals in a new form of the ancient Egyptian whorship of Bastet.

Page 156-157

History of the Arab Peoples

Albert Hourani

---

posted 05 November 2003 10:50 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ozzy:
The definition of "pharonic decent" please. RE: are we all talking about the same time period and the same people.

I think Ausar was refering to the birth rate not migration, over the last 100 years..

So Kem you dont believe as Ausar has just stated that "Most modern anthropologist,Egyptologist,and various other scholars will tell you Egypt was an African culture with a melting pot of assorted people.

---

the definition of pharonic descent is simple. i'm talking about people who lived in kemet at the that a king was called per-aa. and i'm even including the greek and roman rule, when the customs of people would have been pretty much the same as throughout kemet's history, although the rulers were no longer native.

as far as what ausar meant. you may be right. i don't remember where i read his post and i'm not about to go back and look for it. if you'd like to find it, just post it when you do. but i do know that Litchem wrote that Turks, Greeks, Syrians, and Jews are to be found in large numbers in Lower Egypt.

posted 08 November 2003 09:38 AM            

Greco-Roman period was a period of foreign rule. The Upper Egyptians revolted every chance they could to the Ptolomeic rulership. Of course,the Ptolomeys tried to appease the local people with conforming to their standards,but eventually the people hated them. Their rulership became unacceptable.

For more information on this topic read Alan Bowman's book ''Egypt After the Pharoahs''.

posted 08 November 2003 12:09 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
''Ok if I can take this a little further now, if we are talking about the period where a king was called per-aa. and including the greek and roman rule, then are we including all persons born in Egypt during this period as Pharonic ancestors?''

Greco-Roman period was a period of foreign rule. The Upper Egyptians revolted every chance they could to the Ptolomeic rulership. Of course,the Ptolomeys tried to appease the local people with conforming to their standards,but eventually the people hated them. Their rulership became unacceptable.

For more information on this topic read Alan Bowman's book ''Egypt After the Pharoahs''.

---

Not exactly what i was getting at. In the debate as to who and who is not of pheronic ancestry, I would like to know what peoples thoughts are on what time periods are acceptable for people to claim to be Egyptian. Simply, if I was born in Egypt in the 26th dynasty regardless of where my family came from, could I call myself Egytian. Or do I have to be able to trace my links back to the first dynasty. See what I mean. The debate is who is and who is not is not often including a specific time period and as we have discussed the times over thousands of years have changed considerabley in regards to people. My interest is to quantify what is actualy being discussed.