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Author Topic:   Ancient Egypt and pork... ?
sunstorm2004
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posted 16 May 2004 08:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sunstorm2004     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've read a few different things about the prohibition against pork in ancient Egypt.

I've read that for much of ancient Egypt's history pork was consumed freely, except by priests. I've also read that after the unification of upper & lower Egypt, pork was declared unclean, & there's no evidence of it being eaten (even by laypeople) for thousands of years beyond.

Further, I've read that it was associated with Set, and seen as unclean for that.

Anthropologist Marvin Harris says that the prohibition stems from the fact that pork would've been expensive to rear for ancient Egyptians, requiring precious water for wallows and expensive feed. Some say that pork was dangerous to eat in ancient times, thus the prohibition on that basis.

Neither of these ideas make sense to me, since if something is dangerous & expensive, there's no need to explicitly ban it. Economics & common sense would keep people away from it instead!

Modern religions forbidding pork say that it's unclean -- indeed, some Muslims believe that any contact with pork kills the soul.

So -- do you guys think pork was prohibited in ancient Egypt, and if so, what was the reasoning behind it? And, just curious, do you personally believe that there's something "special" about the meat of the pig? Do you think it kills the soul, or makes you ill, or has some other negative effect on those who eat it?

[This message has been edited by sunstorm2004 (edited 16 May 2004).]

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ausar
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posted 16 May 2004 04:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ausar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Herodotus was the person who mentioned that poor was taboo in ancient Egyptian diet. I have came across scenes of butchering various pigs but cannot confirm what time period exactly they date to. I believe this food taboo might have varied from region to region menting nome[sepat] to sepat.


Most likley the fact that pork was forbidden is probally a religious religion or perhaps because in Egypt's climate it is hard to substain such a population of swine. I know this is what anthropologist postulate for other regions where the meat was taboo.

Pork was not the only meat in Egypt diet that was taboo. Various forms of fish were also forbidden because of their association with eating Ausar's penis.

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sunstorm2004
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posted 16 May 2004 09:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sunstorm2004     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
>>Most likley the fact that pork was forbidden is probally a religious religion or perhaps because in Egypt's climate it is hard to substain such a population of swine. I know this is what anthropologist postulate for other regions where the meat was taboo. <<

For me that reasoning has always been suspect, since if a meat is expensive to produce, there's no need to coerce that it not be consumed by declaring it "unclean". If it's expensive to produce, economics would make it scarce, and if its expense is the only thing wrong with it, that would be that.

But instead, we witness the ancient Egytians declaring it unclean, then the Israelites, then the Mohammedans. The two latter belief systems could of course be based on earlier tradition (maybe even echoes of Egyptian tradition), but I'm curious about the Egyptian prohibition, and the extent of it.

By some accounts, it was upon the unification of upper & lower Egypt that pork became taboo, and that prohibition lasted for thousands of years thereafter, even among the humble people.

That sounds pretty severe, like something *enforced*, to secure some societal tenet. Question is: is this true history? By other accounts, pork was consumed pretty freely throughout the life of ancient Egypt. Who's right?

I've also read that pork was consumed exclusively as part of an annual religious ritual, again in association with Set. So the historical accounts are "all over the map" so to speak, depending on who's tellin'.

I'm not Muslim or Jewish, by the way. I don't eat pork for health reasons (pork being deleterious to cardiovascular health, & in some research, associated with cancers of the immune system).

Learning that there was a taboo against pork in ancient Egypt sorta cinched it for me. Anybody here eat pork?

----

Bacon is deeeelicious by the way, for those of you who haven't experienced it. I don't eat it, but damn it tastes good. That's about the only pork dish I really like. So you Muslims aren't missing much with regard to the pig.

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ausar
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posted 16 May 2004 09:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ausar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Honestly I have not found anything in the Kemetian[Egyptian] customs that forbade the eating of pork. Most explanations I get every time I read a source comes from the hatred for the deity Set since the pig was his animal. I am curious to where you might have read that pork became taboo after unification of Upper and Lower Egypt.

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sunstorm2004
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posted 16 May 2004 10:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sunstorm2004     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
>>I am curious to where you might have read that pork became taboo after unification of Upper and Lower Egypt. <<

Okay, I'll look it up. I read a lot about ancient Egypt while having coffee at the local bookstore. Sometimes I buy the books, but rarely -- so I don't have the precise source of that account on hand. I'll have to wait until I hit the bookstore again to cite that source.

In the meanwhile, here's a website with a reference to pork being taboo in upper egypt, and that taboo being brought with the conquerors into the delta (with the unification): http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/timelines/topics/meat.htm

"In Upper Egypt the attitude towards pigs was negative during the pre-dynastic, while they were raised and eaten in the Delta. With the unification of the country under rulers of the south, pork consumption seems to have become rare throughout Egypt for a few centuries. But during most of the dynastic period pigs were grown and consumed by the populace, even if they were generally not acceptable to the gods."

I'm not sure of the author's sources, but it sounds like he (she?) is assuming what he's saying is common knowledge. I got the same impression from the source at the bookstore, though the prohibition was portrayed as more extensive, if I remember correctly.

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ausar
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posted 16 May 2004 10:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ausar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The author of the website you quoted mostly get their sources from other websites. I noticed that the website contains no bibliography that I can see. Most sources seem to come from various websites he collects. Thank you for this dicussion and it has been most rewarding.

Right know I am extremely pressed for time and have very little resources of ancient Egypt with me currently. I will attempt to reserch this.

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Tesherwa
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posted 21 May 2004 10:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tesherwa     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is a very very late response, as I have just registered.

My first question regarding the possible Ancient Egyptian Taboo on Pig Meat is thus. . .
is there ANY Ancient EGYPTIAN source from physical record that confirms or disclaims the idea the Pig Flesh was Taboo in Ancient Egypt?
To rely upon observations and reports of non Egyptian origin, such as the writings of Herodotus, can be highly counterproductive in attempting to establish a fact rather than an assumption.

We can at least say, given the Semitic Cultural Dynamics that were present during the occupation of the Delta by the Heqau Khasut at Hawt Waret, that pork was not consumed by the population, or at least we have no record of it.
Whenever an Archaeological program is initiated, it also takes on a very Anthropological face, so all sorts of evidence of former habitation is collected, categorized, and made subject to analysis for identification . . . . but thats standard practice, so the point I'm making is that very little has been found in the ancient rubbish pile in way of bone matter that has brought back a positive I.D. as being that from a pig, and whatever has been identified as bone fragment or matter belonging to Genus Suidae, there must be differentiation as to whether the evidence has sustained any Slaughter/Post mortis trauma by human involvement, to determine the possible cause of the animals death, and what was probably done to it afterwards. Are there any cut marks or human teeth marks and/or scratch & scrapes on the bone evidence to suggest direct human interaction, did the animal perish by natural means?
This would be helpfull in getting a better idea what the Anceint Egyptians thought about pigs in general.

As far as the evidence at Hawt Waret, skeletal remains of horses have been located, but no Pigs.

Also, if the Pig was seen as a negative creature due to it's association with Set, this negative viewpoint would unlikely have been held by the majority of the Egyptian populace who where not affiliated with Osirian Spiritual Principles and Beliefs .
In another subject post, dealing with the Curse of the Pharoahs, someone had incorrectly made the statement that the Ancient Egyptians did not Worship their God's, or Nuterwa (plural), and that each Nutar i.e. ASR, ANPU, TEHUTI, AST, KHONSU, SUTI, AMUN, ect..ect..ect.. was nothing more than a seperate aspect of a Single Manifestation of Deity.
The System of Ancient Egyptian spiritual belief ( if you want to call it a system ) was much more dynamic and complex to be bundled up into the Poly=Mono section of interpretation.
In other words, different Temples had different Political Structures by which they operated, so the views of the Temple of Sekhmet and her adherents might not neccessaraly coincide with the views held by the Temple of Osiris.
On the Egyptian Calander there is a day which is thought to be the Birthday of Set. I could imagine the Temples of Set holding celebrations upon that day, with the possible sacrificing and later consumtion of an animal sacred to Set, such as a Hippo, a Croc, the Set Animal, or a Pig.

The point out of all this is that unless we determine one way or another from detailed research and analysis, for us to make any kind of guess or assumption as to what or how the ancient culture felt in regards to any issue, just seems a bit stagnant and counter productive towards a better understanding of what really went on.

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Tesherwa
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posted 21 May 2004 10:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tesherwa     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is a very very late response, as I have just registered.

My first question regarding the possible Ancient Egyptian Taboo on Pig Meat is thus. . .
is there ANY Ancient EGYPTIAN source from physical record that confirms or disclaims the idea the Pig Flesh was Taboo in ALL of Ancient Egypt?
or was it an isolated practice ( if at all a practice ) held by a specific Spiritual School of Thought.

To rely upon observations and reports of non Egyptian origin, such as the writings of Herodotus which contain a great deal of error and inaccuracy, can be highly counterproductive in attempting to establish a fact rather than an assumption.

We can at least say, given the Semitic Cultural Dynamics that were present during the occupation of the Delta by the Heqau Khasut at Hawt Waret, that pork was not consumed by the population, or at least we have no record of it.
Whenever an Archaeological program is initiated, it also takes on a very Anthropological face, so all sorts of evidence of former habitation is collected, categorized, and made subject to analysis for identification . . . . but thats standard practice, so the point I'm making is that very little has been found in the ancient rubbish pile in way of bone matter that has brought back a positive I.D. as being that from a pig, and whatever has been identified as bone fragment or matter belonging to Genus Suidae, there must be differentiation as to whether the evidence has sustained any Slaughter/Post mortis trauma by human involvement, to determine the possible cause of the animals death, and what was probably done to it afterwards. Are there any cut marks or human teeth marks and/or scratch & scrapes on the bone evidence to suggest direct human interaction, did the animal perish by natural means?
This would be helpful in getting a better idea what the Ancient Egyptians thought about pigs in general.

As far as the evidence at Hawt Waret, skeletal remains of horses have been located, but no Pigs.

Also, if the Pig was seen as a negative creature due to it's association with Set, this negative viewpoint would unlikely have been held by the majority of the Egyptian populace who where not affiliated with Osirian Spiritual Principles and Beliefs .
In another subject post, dealing with the Curse of the Pharaohs, someone had incorrectly made the statement that the Ancient Egyptians did not Worship their God's, or Nuterwa (plural), and that each Nutar i.e. ASR, ANPU, TEHUTI, AST, KHONSU, SUTI, AMUN, ect..ect..ect.. was nothing more than a separate aspect of a Single Manifestation of Deity.
The System of Ancient Egyptian spiritual belief ( if you want to call it a system ) was much more dynamic and complex to be bundled up into the Poly=Mono section of interpretation.
In other words, different Temples had different Political Structures by which they operated, so the views of the Temple of Sekhmet and her adherents might not necessarily coincide with the views held by the Temple of Osiris.
On the Egyptian Calendar there is a day which is thought to be the Birthday of Set. I could imagine the Temples of Set holding celebrations upon that day, with the possible sacrificing and later consumption of an animal sacred to Set, such as a Hippo, a Croc, the Set Animal, or a Pig.

The point out of all this is that unless we determine one way or another from detailed research and analysis, for us to make any kind of guess or assumption as to what or how the ancient culture felt in regards to any issue, just seems a bit stagnant and counter productive towards a better understanding of what really went on.

------------------

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Tesherwa
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posted 21 May 2004 10:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tesherwa     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is a very very late response, as I have just registered.

My first question regarding the possible Ancient Egyptian Taboo on Pig Meat is thus. . .
is there ANY Ancient EGYPTIAN source from physical record that confirms or disclaims the idea the Pig Flesh was Taboo in ALL of Ancient Egypt?
or was it an isolated practice ( if at all a practice ) held by a specific Spiritual School of Thought.

To rely upon observations and reports of non Egyptian origin, such as the writings of Herodotus which contain a great deal of error and inaccuracy, can be highly counterproductive in attempting to establish a fact rather than an assumption.

We can at least say, given the Semitic Cultural Dynamics that were present during the occupation of the Delta by the Heqau Khasut at Hawt Waret, that pork was not consumed by the population, or at least we have no record of it.
Whenever an Archaeological program is initiated, it also takes on a very Anthropological face, so all sorts of evidence of former habitation is collected, categorized, and made subject to analysis for identification . . . . but thats standard practice, so the point I'm making is that very little has been found in the ancient rubbish pile in way of bone matter that has brought back a positive I.D. as being that from a pig, and whatever has been identified as bone fragment or matter belonging to Genus Suidae, there must be differentiation as to whether the evidence has sustained any Slaughter/Post mortis trauma by human involvement, to determine the possible cause of the animals death, and what was probably done to it afterwards. Are there any cut marks or human teeth marks and/or scratch & scrapes on the bone evidence to suggest direct human interaction, did the animal perish by natural means?
This would be helpful in getting a better idea what the Ancient Egyptians thought about pigs in general.

As far as the evidence at Hawt Waret, skeletal remains of horses have been located, but no Pigs.

Also, if the Pig was seen as a negative creature due to it's association with Set, this negative viewpoint would unlikely have been held by the majority of the Egyptian populace who where not affiliated with Osirian Spiritual Principles and Beliefs .
In another subject post, dealing with the Curse of the Pharaohs, someone had incorrectly made the statement that the Ancient Egyptians did not Worship their God's, or Nuterwa (plural), and that each Nutar i.e. ASR, ANPU, TEHUTI, AST, KHONSU, SUTI, AMUN, ect..ect..ect.. was nothing more than a separate aspect of a Single Manifestation of Deity.
The System of Ancient Egyptian spiritual belief ( if you want to call it a system ) was much more dynamic and complex to be bundled up into the Poly=Mono section of interpretation.
In other words, different Temples had different Political Structures by which they operated, so the views of the Temple of Sekhmet and her adherents might not necessarily coincide with the views held by the Temple of Osiris.
On the Egyptian Calendar there is a day which is thought to be the Birthday of Set. I could imagine the Temples of Set holding celebrations upon that day, with the possible sacrificing and later consumption of an animal sacred to Set, such as a Hippo, a Croc, the Set Animal, or a Pig.

The point out of all this is that unless we determine one way or another from detailed research and analysis, for us to make any kind of guess or assumption as to what or how the ancient culture felt in regards to any issue, just seems a bit stagnant and counter productive towards a better understanding of what really went on.

------------------

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sunstorm2004
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posted 31 May 2004 05:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for sunstorm2004     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
>>>is there ANY Ancient EGYPTIAN source from physical record that confirms or disclaims the idea the Pig Flesh was Taboo in Ancient Egypt?<<<

Well, there's a well-known tale from a coffin text (circa 1900 bc.) which explains why the pig "became an abomination to the gods, as well as men, for Heru's sake":

"O Batit of the evening, you swamp-dwellers, you of Mendes, ye of Buto, you of the shade of Re which knows not praise, you who brew stoppered beer---do you know why Rekhyt [Lower Egypt] was given to Horus? It was Re who gave it to him in recompense for the injury in his eye. It was Re--he said to Horus: "Pray, let me see your eye since this has happened to it" [injured in the fight with Seth]. Then Re saw it. Re said: "Pray, look at that injury in your eye, while your hand is a covering over the good eye which is there." Then Horus looked at that injury. It assumed the form of a black pig. Thereupon Horus shrieked because of the state of his eye, which was stormy [inflamed]. Horus said: "Behold, my eye is as at that first blow which Seth made against my eye!" Thereupon Horus swallowed his heart before him [lost consciousness]. Then Re said: "Put him upon his bed until he has recovered." It was Seth---he has assumed form against him as a black pig; thereupon he shot a blow into his eye. Then Re said: "The pig is an abomination to Horus." "Would that he might recover," said the gods. That is how the pig became an abomination to the gods, as well as men, for Horus' sake."

>>>Also, if the Pig was seen as a negative creature due to it's association with Set, this negative viewpoint would unlikely have been held by the majority of the Egyptian populace who where not affiliated with Osirian Spiritual Principles and Beliefs .
<<<

Hmmm. So the majority of the Egyptian populace weren't "affililated" with Ausar? Everywhere, I've read the precise opposite.

--

Anyway -- the more I learn about the egyptian taboo against the pig the more interesting it gets...

It seems fairly common knowledge among "mainstream" egyptologists that there was a taboo against the pig in upper egypt before the unification, though pork was consumed widely in lower egypt. When the upper egyptians swept "upward", they imposed the taboo on all. According to data from archaeological digs, evidence of the pig was rare at post-unification settlements for "hundreds" of years thereafter.

Here's an entry from an Oxford Social Issues Research Center dietary timeline:
http://www.sirc.org/timeline/3200bc.html

"According to Grivetti, before 3200 B.C. Egypt consisted of two distinctive geographical-cultural entities: a pork-consuming north or Lower Egypt, and a pork-avoiding south or Upper Egypt.

"Shortly after 3200 B.C., both regions were united politically when the Southerners invaded and conquered the north. One result of this conquest was the institution of broadly based pork avoidance throughout the Egyptian Nile valley and delta that pre-dates the Jewish pork prohibition by more than two thousand years."

"Pigs in the ancient Egyptian pantheon were associated with Seth, the evil brother of Osiris. During political periods when Osiris worship dominated, pork was avoided; when Seth gained ascendancy pork was widely consumed and considered a desired food. Pork was widely eaten during the 18th-20th dynasty reign of Amenhotep III (c. 1405-1370 B.C.) who offered pigs as offerings to the temple of Ptah at Memphis. Seti I, father of king Rameses II (c. 1318-1298 B.C.), allowed pigs to be raised inside the temple of Osiris at Abydos."

Grivetti, L.E. (2000) Food prejudices and Taboos. Cambridge World History of Food. Cambridge University Press.

----

...Then there's Herodotus's account in the late period (about THREE THOUSAND YEARS after the taboo was imposed by the unification):

"The pig is regarded among them as an unclean animal, so much so that if a man in passing accidentally touch a pig, he instantly hurries to the river, and plunges in with all his clothes on. Hence, too, the swineherds, notwithstanding that they are of pure Egyptian blood, are forbidden to enter into any of the temples, which are open to all other Egyptians; and further, no one will give his daughter in marriage to a swineherd, or take a wife from among them, so that the swineherds are forced to intermarry among themselves. They do not offer swine in sacrifice to any of their gods, excepting Bacchus and the Moon, whom they honour in this way at the same time, sacrificing pigs to both of them at the same full moon, and afterwards eating of the flesh. There is a reason alleged by them for their detestation of swine at all other seasons, and their use of them at this festival, with which I am well acquainted, but which I do not think it proper to mention."

I see no reason to doubt that account, even if it's a bit "dramatic" at the outset. He also writes:

"The following is the mode in which they sacrifice the swine to the Moon:- As soon as the victim is slain, the tip of the tail, the spleen, and the caul are put together, and having been covered with all the fat that has been found in the animal's belly, are straightway burnt. The remainder of the flesh is eaten on the same day that the sacrifice is offered, which is the day of the full moon: at any other time they would not so much as taste it...."

"...At any other time they would not so much as taste it...."

Herodotus also testifies that the Ancient Egyptians were the "most religious" people he'd ever witnessed. So if the taboo was in effect, why would this "most religious" population be so lax as to freely savor the pig?

******

Last, but not least, we can weigh in the scarcity of the image of the pig in Ancient Egyptian art.

***

I think all this, taken in combo, represents as strong evidence of a general taboo against pork in Ancient Egypt as the archeological digs might be of its widespread consumption.

Like, even IF the archaeologic research isn't flawed in some way, there's still the question of who ate the pig & left the bones at the sites. (Not necessarily the Ancient Egyptians). Foreigners lived among the egyptians... Captives & others.

---

...Yet the majority of the stuff that I read from mainstream Egyptologists basically states that pork was eaten pretty much throughout Ancient Egypt & throughout the history of Ancient Egypt.

From The Complete Idiot's Guide to Ancient Egypt, by Donald Ryan, Ph.D., (a book I came across at Barnes & Nobles) --

"The Greek Historian Herodotus mentioned that the pig was a taboo creature in ancient Egyptian society, but no Egyptian evidence confirms this. In fact, archaeologists have found lots of pig bones while excavating settlement sites."

"No Egyptian evidence confirms this"??...

I find it notable the way "mainstream" egyptologists casually gloss over evidence of the pork taboo, especially since this taboo (along with the taboo on bottom-feeding fish) could be yet another Kemetan religious tradition that influenced the Abrahamic religious traditions.

Perhaps they're just fans of the pig?

***

Even if the taboo wasn't observed at all times, in all settlements, by all the people -- the taboo was there and this is something egyptologists shouldn't play down.

Some say pork was raised in only the more humble echelons of society -- by people who couldn't afford to keep cattle (& thereby observe the taboo). As a "cheap" source of protein (eats your garbage, turns it into meat) perhaps it was also fed to the soldiers. (One would want soldiers to be a little like Set anyway, right?)

...And I think Hawass believes that at monument construction camps, pork was eaten by the workers, though not by their overlords.

***

One other thing: a not-so-reliable-looking web site I came across says that the Hyskos's patron diety was Set and that they even "worshipped" the pig. I had never come across this info before... Anyone out there ever read or heard about that?

[This message has been edited by sunstorm2004 (edited 31 May 2004).]

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