posted 12 July 2004 09:53 PM            

Of course, the papyri were not the first physical evidence of Egyptian numerals, as those were found as hieroglyphic symbols carved on temple walls, vases, and stone monuments. These, however, provided only limited information on calculations by Egyptians. The development of the papyrus, signaled a more practical form of numerals. The two documents shown above, provided a better understanding of Egyptian mathematical calculation. Here are examples of the hieroglyphic symbols denoting numerals:



The numbers can be read from left to right, with higher numbers written in front of the lower ones. Where there are rows of numbers, the reader should start at the top row.

The Egyptians also had a symbol to denote “zero”.

Egyptian "Pi" (source: saxakali.com)
The Egyptian value of "pi" was 3.16, which is much closer to the modern 3.14 than the biblical value of 3.0. The Egyptian mathematicians probably used measurement, experimentation and a theoretical analysis of "squaring a circle" to obtain such an accurate value of "pi."

posted 12 July 2004 10:11 PM            

What the Kemetians did get correct that possibly the later Greeks copied was the area of a circle and trucated pyramid. The early Egyptians also had a great understanding of geomtry and Algerbra. However,they lacked proofs for the formulas and also some tombs show the square of the hypotnuse.

posted 12 July 2004 10:34 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
Ancient Egyptian mathematics was not as advanced as Babylonian mathematics. The Rhind and Moscow papyrus were written around the 12th dyansty and recopied around the 18th dyansty by Ahmose.

What the Kemetians did get correct that possibly the later Greeks copied was the area of a circle and trucated pyramid. The early Egyptians also had a great understanding of geomtry and Algerbra. However,they lacked proofs for the formulas and also some tombs show the square of the hypotnuse.

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posted 12 July 2004 10:44 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
Ancient Egyptian mathematics was not as advanced as Babylonian mathematics. The Rhind and Moscow papyrus were written around the 12th dyansty and recopied around the 18th dyansty by Ahmose.

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posted 13 July 2004 12:13 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Supercar
But experts who have carefully examined the Great Pyramid at Giza, have come to the conclusion that something makes this pyramid different from many “pyramids” of antiquity; it seemed to have been built with a great deal of engineering, which would require some form of mathematical skills. Their dimensions or proportionality of the pyramid sides, seemed to have been carefully calculated with a degree of precision. While the Egyptians may not have used or invented ratios such as sine, cosine , secant, and so on, which are connected with “pi”, some experts claim that the constructions were made as such that the triangle which was formed by the base, height and slope of the pyramid was a 3, 4, and 5 triangle. Could all this have simply been a coincidence? Without looking ridiculous, one can say that the Egyptians more likely used some mathematical knowledge to construct right angles, rather than build in ratios connected with the “golden” ratio or “pi”. One cannot be certain what mathematical model the Egyptians created to build precise dimensions which made sense when calculated in terms of ratios connected with the “golden ratio” and pi.

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posted 13 July 2004 03:59 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by homeylu:
Excellent post Supercar. No it was not a coincidence, the mathematical formula is staring right at you. The Egyptians knew how to calculate the "slope" of a pyramid by using the trigometric lines-sine, cosine, tangent, cotangent as shown on the Rhind Papyrus. It deals with the squaring of a circle of a diameter 9 to that of a square with a side of 9. Diop illustrates this in "Civilization or Barbarism" in detail on pg. 262. He goes on to show several other mathematical formulas the Egyptians were keenly aware of using this papyrus. And remember Diop was an award winning physicist, and he goes on to illustrate how they are the true "inventors" of the so-called Pythagorean theorem, and they obviously influenced Pythagoras by symbols in the hieroglyphics. I.e. The Egyptians used flowing water sign to represent the progression of numbers, the right angle to represent the the "gnomon", the even numbers by the "equal" =, sign of balance, the circle was used b the sign of Ra, and the ank cross, for t-squares. Even Aristotle and Democritus stated that the Egptian priest "heavily guarded a lot of theoretical sciences behind the walls of the temples and that mathematical proportions held some sort of "divine" essence in the Platonic and Pythagorean sense.

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Well stated Homeylu. I just couldn't get myself to conceive the Kemetians not creating formulas for their tried mathematical applications. This is where I disagree with Ausur. He seems to have already reached the conclusion that the Egyptians must not have proven their mathematical applications in terms of formulas, because documentation hasn't been found yet. Well, I don't know about anyone else, but for me, just because such documents haven't been found, doesn't mean that they didn't put their mathematical applications into formulas or that they didn't prove their formulas. In fact, it doesn't make sense to say that they didn't prove their mathematical formulas, when the Egyptians dealt mostly with practical mathematics. In other words, they actually put their theories into real world use such as, engineering construction, chemistry, and for accounting purposes. Yes, they dealt with abstract math, but less so than practical math. Where there was shortcomings of their mathematical solutions, they found a way around it. It shouldn't be forgotten that Ancient Egyptian nation was a civilization that had reached high levels of achievement as evident from the pyramids and other monuments they left behind. If the Egyptians were to successfully pass these mathematical applications onto the following generations, they would have to create formulas for mathematical solutions, and would have to prove those formulas for understanding. It is simply natural to do so. Many of these were of course written on papyri, most of which have not survived or been recovered. Papyrus was naturally preferable to the Kemetians than clay tablets, because of it’s relative lightweight or portability. Two papyri documents simply cannot show all the formulas the Egyptians came up with. They do however, show examples of math problems, solutions and general principles. As I understand it, the Rhind papyrus for example, shows the use of irrational numbers, arithmetical and geometrical progressions in what was labeled as problems 40 and 79. A good point Homeylu made about the Kemetian Priets. Priests readily had access to education than commoners, but they were very secretive about their writings. This doubtlessly made it hard to copy their work. The two papyri recovered are just two of millions of papyri that must have contained various formulas. How then can anyone say that the Kemetians didn't prove formulas, as an absolute conclusion. That would be erroneous.

posted 13 July 2004 03:01 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
http://www.math.buffalo.edu/mad/Ancient-Africa/mad_ancient_egypt.html

You might find this interesting.

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Wealth of knowledge on that website Kem-Au. I thought math expert and retired military cryptanlyst, Milo Gardner, made a comment that was noteworthy. Here's a quote:

"Mathematicians, Egyptologists and historians of various disciplines in 2002 tend to work within mutually exclusive disciplines, as was the case in 1927. That is, scholars in one field tend to be unfamiliar with the specialized language and practices of the other, often accepting the conclusions of the other without critical examination. One consequence is that errors introduced by members of one discipline are often not pointed out by the members of another.

Scholars first attempted to decode the EMLR contents in 1927. In presenting their conclusions,the algebraic aspects were omitted. Perhaps one reason was that classical scholars had previously reported that Egyptian fractions showed signs of intellectual decline from Middle Kingdom mathematics (Neugebauer).

There are signs of improvement, refuting Neugebaur's issue of intellectual decline. A debate has begun on the Pythagorean side of the Babylonian Plimpton 322 (Robson), that introduces a fresh set of historical methods. This regional debate extends to the evaluation of Egyptian fractions, beyond issues of additive mathematics."

posted 14 July 2004 12:22 AM            

“We Africans have to tell our story. We underestimate the power of the story.
"What happened to the black people of Kemet," the traveler asked the old man.
"For legend had it that the people of Kemet were black? What happened?"
"Ah," wailed the old man, "they lost their history and they died."

When I was ten years old, living in Africa, my father posed the following question to me:
"The story or the warrior, which is mightier?"
"The warrior!" I replied."
My father shook his head in disagreement.
"The story. The story is mightier than the warrior," he said to me.
"How can that be?" I asked him.
"The story lives on long after the warrior has died," he explained.

“Euclid wrote his book, called the "The Elements," 2,300 years ago. It is the second most reprinted book in history. It is second only to the Bible. And Euclid is, perhaps, the world's greatest mathematician of all time.

To the ancients, Euclid's Elements was a notoriously difficult textbook. The story is told about a discouraged student that asked Euclid:
"What shall I profit by learning these difficult things?"
Euclid, visibly angered, said to his assistant:
"Give this boy a penny, since he must make a profit out of what he learns."
Because The Elements was notoriously difficult to understand, Jefferson wrote that it would be difficult for a black person to understand the work of Euclid.
He believed that only people of European ancestry could understand the subject of Geometry.
As an African mathematician, I studied and understood geometry. There was nothing in my experience that could lead me to believe that whites have greater mathematical aptitude than people of other races. Yet, that stereotype persists among white mathematicians.
While researching the origins of the Euclid's work, I was surprised when I learned that Euclid never even traveled outside Africa.
"How could Euclid be Greek, if he was born, raised and educated in Africa?" I asked.
It occurred to me that Euclid, the greatest mathematician of all time, was neither Greek nor white. It occurred to me that he was probably black and full-blooded Negro.
I found the best explanation in a book on "History of Mathematics." The author explained that ancient Egypt was not in Africa. "Egypt was part of Greece," he added.
I was curious about how Euclid looked in person. As I probed further, I discovered a widely circulating photo of Euclid. It was the photo of white male that seems to be 90 years old.
I asked: "Is this a true portrait of Euclid?"
Upon reflection, I realized that it was a fictitious portrait. It was drawn 2,000 years after Euclid died.
Euclid died 2,300 years ago in Africa. And we do not have any true portrait of any person that lived before Jesus Christ. We do not have any true portrait of any person that lived even 500 years.

I later learned that many Greek scientists of ancient times were born, raised and educated in Africa. And I still wonder if those Greek scientists were actually black Africans.

If Euclid never traveled outside Africa, we should assume that he is African. Which raises the profound question:
If Euclid is African, then Thomas Jefferson must be wrong when he argued that an African couldn't understand the work of Euclid?

Euclid was the warrior and Thomas Jefferson was the storyteller.
As my father taught me, the story is mightier than the warrior.
The story lives on long after the warrior has died.

When I was young, I believed that the warrior is mightier than the story. I did not understand that the pen is mightier than the sword.
As a young man, I believed history is about the truth.
As an older man, I learned that history is both truth and illusion.

Twelve years ago, a magazine hired a white man to prepare an illustration of a supercomputer wizard riding an ox. I was supposed to be the supercomputer wizard. But the white illustrator, who knew that I am black, portrayed me as a white person in his published illustration.”
I learned that the white illustrator was searching for himself in me.

The first draft of a portrait that depicted Emeagwali as a supercomputer wizard driving a carriage powered by thousands of chickens (a metaphor for his 65,000 weak processors that performed the world's fastest computation). The "Negro Emeagwali" (shown in this illustration) was rejected and replaced with a "Caucasian Emeagwali" (shown below).

A "whitened" Caucasian portrait of Emeagwali was acceptable and widely published. One illustrator argued that Emeagwali has a trace of Caucasian blood and said that he could see the "Caucasian look" in his face.

“I learned that the modern chemist is not aware that the word "chemistry" meant "black man's science."
I learned that the word chemistry was derived from the word "Kemet." And that Kemet is the ancient name for the land we now call Egypt. And that Kemet translates as "land of the blacks." And that "chemistry" means "black man's science."

Yet the story of black people's contribution to the science of chemistry is not included in chemistry textbooks. As my father taught me, the story is greater than the warrior.

The Encyclopedia of Science by Isaac Asimov:
Acknowledges that an African named Imhotep is the Father of Medicine.
It acknowledges that an African is the Father of Architecture.
It acknowledges that an African is the first scientist in recorded history.
It acknowledges that the earliest Greek scientists were educated in Africa by Africans. That they lived and worked in Africa. That they were even born in Africa.

If the earliest Greek scientists lived in Africa, then it leads to the profound conclusion that Greece is not the birthplace of Western civilization. It leads to more logical conclusion that Africa is the birthplace of civilization.

Ladies and gentlemen, we should give credit where credit is due. Scholars name a book after its author. Scientists name a discovery after the discoverer. And technologists name an invention after the inventor.
Why then were African textbooks Europeanized by naming them after European cities and persons? The reason is that the story is mightier than the warrior. Ancient Africans were the ancient warriors and modern Europeans are the modern storytellers.

We should teach our children that:
Science is the gift of ancient Africa to our modern world.
Finally, and most importantly, we should remind them that
Africans were the carriers of light.
Africans were not waiting in darkness for others to bring light to them.

Note: Emeagwali won the 1989 Gordon Bell Prize, which has been called "supercomputing's Nobel Prize," for inventing a formula that allows computers to perform their fastest computations - a discovery that inspired the reinvention of supercomputers. He was extolled by then U.S. President Bill Clinton as "one of the great minds of the Information Age" and described by CNN as "a Father of the Internet;" and is the most searched-for scientist on the Internet.

All content of quotes is exclusively taken from Emeagwali’s website: http://emeagwali.com/speeches/black-history-month/african-history-lost-stolen-or- strayed.html

posted 14 July 2004 02:14 AM            

quote:

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Because The Elements was notoriously difficult to understand, Jefferson wrote that it would be difficult for a black person to understand the work of Euclid.

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An english explorer Clapperton traveled to Northern Nigeria in Hausa land discovered that the sultan there had a copy of Euclid's Elements. Many medevil Western Africans at Timbuktu probabaly also had copies. This is legitmate history instead of contrived history.

quote:

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He believed that only people of European ancestry could understand the subject of Geometry.
As an African mathematician, I studied and understood geometry. There was nothing in my experience that could lead me to believe that whites have greater mathematical aptitude than people of other races. Yet, that stereotype persists among white mathematicians.

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I agree with this. If the above author wants to refute the streotype then he stands upon his own merit of accomplishments and not from revisionist history.

quote:

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While researching the origins of the Euclid's work, I was surprised when I learned that Euclid never even traveled outside Africa.

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It should be noted that Euclid lived in a mostly Hellenistic city of Alexzandria. Most of the culture of the people was Hellenistic and not indigenou Egyptian. The previous name from the city was Rhaptois which probabaly did include a library before the founding of the Alexzandrian library. Some Egyptians were Hellenized but I don't believe Euclid was amung the people that were.

quote:

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"How could Euclid be Greek, if he was born, raised and educated in Africa?" I asked.
It occurred to me that Euclid, the greatest mathematician of all time, was neither Greek nor white. It occurred to me that he was probably black and full-blooded Negro.

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Because Egypt during this period was filled with foreginers in Alexzandria. The city was Hellenized.

We don't know if Euclid was Egyptian or Greek. He might of been or might not have been.

quote:

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found the best explanation in a book on "History of Mathematics." The author explained that ancient Egypt was not in Africa. "Egypt was part of Greece," he added.
I was curious about how Euclid looked in person. As I probed further, I discovered a widely circulating photo of Euclid. It was the photo of white male that seems to be 90 years old.
I asked: "Is this a true portrait of Euclid?"
Upon reflection, I realized that it was a fictitious portrait. It was drawn 2,000 years after Euclid died.

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The only Egyptian influce I see in Alexzandria is the medical school which allowed people to disect human beings instead of just animals. This is where Galen learned much from the Egyptian medical school.

We have portraits at Fayium that show people who lived there while Greeks occupied the area.

quote:

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Euclid died 2,300 years ago in Africa. And we do not have any true portrait of any person that lived before Jesus Christ. We do not have any true portrait of any person that lived even 500 years.

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We do at Fayium.

quote:

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If Euclid never traveled outside Africa, we should assume that he is African. Which raises the profound question:

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Because he lived in a Hellenistic soceity.

quote:

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I learned that the modern chemist is not aware that the word "chemistry" meant "black man's science."
I learned that the word chemistry was derived from the word "Kemet." And that Kemet is the ancient name for the land we now call Egypt. And that Kemet translates as "land of the blacks." And that "chemistry" means "black man's science."

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etymologist are not certain that the origin of the word Alchamey came from the term for ancient Kmt. While I do agree that Egyptians were probabaly amung the first chemist. We have evidence they produced complex wet chemisty.

quote:

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Science is the gift of ancient Africa to our modern world.

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The principles of modern science has little to do with ancient Kmt. Many people including the Kemetians contributed to the rise of scientific thought,but it's doubtful that all modern science can be traced back to ancient Kmt.

posted 14 July 2004 03:24 AM            

quote:

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Posted by ausur:
It should be noted that Euclid lived in a mostly Hellenistic city of Alexzandria. Most of the culture of the people was Hellenistic and not indigenou Egyptian. The previous name from the city was Rhaptois which probabaly did include a library before the founding of the Alexzandrian library. Some Egyptians were Hellenized but I don't believe Euclid was amung the people that were.

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Why don’t you believe that Euclid was among the people that could have been Hellenized?
It should be important to note that Emeagwali was trying to point out that even if there were Greeks in Egypt, including Euclid, they got their knowledge from the Africans.

quote:

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Posted by ausur:
You don't need revisionist history to refute racist scholarship. Making up history like Philip Emegawli did hinders instead of helping the problem. The words of Thomas Jefferson can easily be refuted by simply observing and studying what acomplishments that Africans and African America people have accomplished in the moder era. Benjamin Bannekar wrote a detailed letter to Jefferson refuting the notion of his blatant racism.

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You are right that making up history would hinder instead solving the problem of racist scholarship. But I don’t think that was the message Emeagwali was conveying. He was trying to emphasize the need for Africans to tell their own story, and not just standby while White revisionists continue to teach Euro centered perspectives of history. Like he bluntly stated, telling a story outlasts the likes of himself. He can speak of his accomplishments while he is alive, but when he is no longer alive, the people who tell his story will make a lasting impression on the minds of future generations. That is why he showed an example of himself, being cast as a “white man” by a publisher. Besides, even if Euclid was Greek and not African biologically, the fact that he was born there, and was educated there, doesn’t that represent a fact! Emeagwali clearly stated that it is his opinion that Euclid must have been either a black person or a non-white person. He doesn’t state it as a fact. He does however, state as a fact that Euclid was born, and educated in Africa by Africans.

quote:

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Posted by ausur:

Quote by Emeagwali:

Because The Elements was notoriously difficult to understand, Jefferson wrote that it would be difficult for a black person to understand the work of Euclid.

An english explorer Clapperton traveled to Northern Nigeria in Hausa land discovered that the sultan there had a copy of Euclid's Elements. Many medevil Western Africans at Timbuktu probabaly also had copies. This is legitmate history instead of contrived history.

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Are you agreeing or disagreeing with Dr. Emeagwali that Africans were able to understand Euclid’s Elements?
Emeagwali was pointing out Jefferson’s claim that Africans/Blacks wouldn’t be able to understand Euclid’s Elements.

quote:

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Posted by ausur:
quote:

Euclid died 2,300 years ago in Africa. And we do not have any true portrait of any person that lived before Jesus Christ. We do not have any true portrait of any person that lived even 500 years.

We do at Fayium.

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How accurate are these portraits? Were they taken during the time era that portraits were supposed to depict? Considering that there were no cameras then, a portrait taken 2,000 years after a person is dead, cannot possibly be an accurate portrait of the individual involved.

quote:

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Posted by ausur:
quote:

Science is the gift of ancient Africa to our modern world.

The principles of modern science has little to do with ancient Kmt. Many people including the Kemetians contributed to the rise of scientific thought,but it's doubtful that all modern science can be traced back to ancient Kmt.

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I don’t think Emeagwali made any statement that each and every scientific discovery can be traced back to ancient Kmt. He is simply stating that most basic sciences can be traced back to either Kmt or elsewhere in Africa. These include but not limited to mathematics, chemistry, engineering construction, written language, concept of paper, astrology, and philosophy. Other origins of science can be traced back to Mesopotamia, ancient China, Ancient India as well.

posted 14 July 2004 07:22 AM            

quote:

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You are right that making up history would hinder instead solving the problem of racist scholarship. But I don’t think that was the message Emeagwali was conveying

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I agree. Ausar seems to have completely missed the point. The made up history is being done by the psychotic racism that drives one to portray Emeagwali as white....
and rationalize that you can see his "white" ancestry in his features. Ausar did you see
Emeagali's picture?

posted 14 July 2004 10:10 AM            

Know I don't doubt that Egyptians have a large effect upon the learning of the Greeks. Many claims asserted need the burden of proof.

The artist portraying Philip Emegawli as white is a non sequitir and plays no role in my criticism. My criticism was simply on his observation of history.

posted 14 July 2004 10:31 AM            

quote:

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The artist playing Philip Emegawli as white is non-sequitor and plays no role in my criticism

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posted 14 July 2004 03:27 PM            

I have to laugh at the otherwise well meaning comment that "he needs to stand on his own accomplishments", as if they were somehow suspect. Or as if Phillip was using Kemet and Greece to bolster himself!

He could just as easily ignore Africa/Egypt and embrace the attempt to caucasianize him as some sort of flattery. But Philip Emeagwali seems to understand at a deeper level, the form a flattery which disguises insult and malicious intent.

posted 14 July 2004 03:57 PM            

quote:

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Keep in mind that Egypt's golden age of science and the arts had long passed by the time the Greeks began settling there. It had been quite a few centuries since the Egyptians invented anything or built anything remotely close to the Great Pyramids in complexity.

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Building structures does not count as science.Although it may take some principles of mathematics but concrete analyitical science.

Kemetian knowleadge never really decreased at the period of the Dyanstic era. When the Persians ruled Egypt they never supressed the Egyptian scriptoriums nor the medical schools that were active the in the area of Sais. The 25th dyansty brought upon the Saite Reinssance that existed around the 26th dyansty.

We do have evidence that some mathematical principles of the Greeks were taken from Kmt as well as medical pratices. To say that Kemetian scientific advancement stagnated is a little inaccurate.

In reguards to structures,we have evidence that Egyptian architects were used to build Perapolis in modern day Iran.

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We have to go back to very early civilizations of mankind, and show how from the very beginning up until now the people of African descent aren't inferior, but have been pivotal in the sustainance of civilization.

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People of African decent played a vital role in civlizations,but in the modern era the only way to fight racism is through modern achievements. Most of the people making racist claims about Africans never having civlization never developed one in antiquity either. Celtics and Germanic people were barbarians that never had structured soceity.

The other problem is the primary focus on Kmt to other civlizations on African soil that deserve equal attention. What about Meroe,Aksum or even Benin in western Africa. Africans in these areas had complex soceities. Just because many don't have the pyramids or acclaim from Greco-Roman writers makes them no less spectacular.

I understand that ancient Kmt was a complex civlization that accomplaishmed many thing but it was not this utopian place you make it out to be. In many ways the goverment system amung the Igbo was very democratic with checks and balances comparied to rigid pharoanic system that often lead to disorder.
Western Africans discovered iron manufacture simply upon their own without assiatance from their northern neighboors.

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Egyptians may not have made much significant invention since the ending of the dynastic period, as Homeylu pointed out, but that history is still very important to point out where Africans stood then, and how they came to be in the position they are now.

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See my correction to neo*geo's post. What happened in Kmt does not apply to every place in Africa. I agree that many parts of modern Africa are in the condition because of foregin invaders but we have to judge each region of Africa on a individual basis.

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For the last time, Emeagwali never stated as fact Euclid's ethnicity, but said that according to the information he got from his research, there is a possibility he was African. I mean, the guy never travelled out of Afica; he was born there, educated there, and died over there! He states that from these events, he doesn't rule out the possibility of him being biologically African. That is all. There is no need to make a mole hill out of that comment, in order to discredit the message he was trying to convey! Euclid as a mathematician, must have gotten most of his mathematic education in Kemet, where he was living. That is a fact, not invented history!

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But Emegawli omits facts in his statements without providing evidence. That's bad scholarship and reserch no matter what ethnicity you are. You can't just say Greeks or Romans got everything from Kmt without being specific and too the point. Enegawli sites no examples.

Exodoxus was a Greek mathematician that spent many years in kmt learning mathematics. He is the main contributor to the Elements which was supposed to be written by Euclid.

posted 14 July 2004 04:20 PM            

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Originally posted by ausar:
But Emegawli omits facts in his statements without providing evidence. That's bad scholarship and reserch no matter what ethnicity you are. You can't just say Greeks or Romans got everything from Kmt without being specific and too the point. Enegawli sites no examples. [/B]

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You are making two mistakes.

* You are treating Emegawli's anecdote and parable as if it were history lesson. It is not.

* And you are misquoting him and exaggerating, in order to then attack comments that he never made. That is known as attacking a straw man. Specifically:

He said: "many Greek scientists of ancient times were born, raised and educated in Africa"

You attacked: "Greeks or Romans got everything from Kmt"

That is not what he said. That is bad criticism.

btw: If you want a "history lesson" to the same effect, then perhaps critique Martin Bernal's Black Athena for us? It is very specific, and offers plenty for debate. http://www.physics.wustl.edu/~alford/athena.html

posted 14 July 2004 04:31 PM            

In his latest book he tends to favor Mesopotamia as influcing Greco-Roman civlization than ancient Kmt. Contrary to what most think, Bernal argues that Upper Egyptians can be called fundamentally black;while Lower Egyptians cannot. The black Athena title is decieveing,for Bernal wrote the book to decrase European arrogance and not for the purposes some people think.

posted 14 July 2004 04:31 PM            

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Originally posted by rasol:
Sometimes I wonder if Africa will ever again regain her glory. It is not enough to be able to create. You must also know how to protect, promote and defend your heritage. This is truly a hard lesson of Kemetic history. Africa, including Egypt need more Philip Emeagwali's.

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I too wonder at times, if Africans or Blacks will ever again regain their past glory. I mean, even today, we have Blacks who downplay the need to highlight our heritage out of fear of being labeled Afrocentric or being absurd. Even when these Black folks talk of historical accomplishments, they downplay the impact it has had in bringing about modern society. From the available historical documents, the Kemetians had a strong standing on Geometry, Arithmetic, and Algebra. It was vital to the sustenance of a civilization. What civilization from past to modern can do without this science? This is one of the vital Kemetian gifts to modern society. This is not say that every modern mathematical concept comes from Kemet, but the Kemetians seemed to have built foundations for mathematical science. In fact, from the link Kem-Au provided earlier, you will find out that "oldest record" of the most basic mathematics actually started in the Sub-Saharan African region, south of Kemet. Similarly if you study Kemet carefully, you will notice that the study of mathematics was the initiative of the Upper Egyptians, as compared to their lower counterpart. Past accomplishments like these shouldn't be "blacked out". In reality, each race of humankind has contributed to modern science and civilization. But politics is also a reality today, that tends to deny a certain group of people, particularly Africans, credit for their contributions to civilization. For example, Americans say that the Wright brothers invented the aeroplane, even though, at that time there were attempts to make such a device in other parts of the world. Can you really state that modern airliners are therefore invented by those same people. I think not. These airliners are the result of the accomplishments of numerous (faceless) people of various ethnic backgrounds, who happened to use the basic foundations that the Wright brothers supposedly laid down. Similarly the Kemetians, cannot be the inventors of each and every modern mathematical science available to us, but they have certainly laid foundations for this. Mathematics cannot stay the same, it has to evolve. It becomes more complex, as society becomes increasingly complex. The kemetian mathematics also became more complex as they moved from carving to writing on papyrus, the concept of paper initiated by the Kemetians.

posted 14 July 2004 04:44 PM            

quote:

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Most of the people making racist claims about Africans never having civlization never developed one in antiquity either. Celtics and Germanic people were barbarians that never had structured soceity.

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posted 14 July 2004 05:03 PM            

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Bernal believes that the Hykos who invaded Egypt brought Kemetian civlization with them and became the Pelasgisans of ancient Greece. He argues from a linguistic view that most of the words in Greek are infact of Afro-Asiatic origin thus the name Afro-Asiatic. Bernal believes that most of the catalyst for the start of Greco-Roman civlization was Phonecian.

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His reasons for writing the book are not important. Only whether has facts are correct or not. The point is, if you want to discuss the specific details of African involvement in AG then they have been laid out by Bernal, George James and others in "history" books. So if you disagree over specifics - disagree with them. For the Record Bernal also beleives 12th Dynasty Kemetians under Sestrosis colonized Crete and influenced Greece long before the Hyksos.

Back to Emeagwali:

The story you are refuting was not a history lesson. So accusing Phillip of not providing historical specifics is really a bit beside the point. It's like accusing a racehorse of not being able to fly! Refute Bernal and Martin, on the substance of Kemetic influence on Greece, if you can.

posted 14 July 2004 05:16 PM            

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Similarly if you study Kemet carefully, you will notice that the study of mathematics was the initiative of the Upper Egyptians, as compared to their lower counterpart. Past accomplishments like these shouldn't be "blacked out".

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Arguably: If you study Kemetic history a patten emerges of distruction reigning from the Levant, and reconstruction from the African interior, such as the 18th dynasty and the 25th for example. I actually think this is obvious to many Egyptologists to such a degree that their histories attempt to surpress it. (revealing awareness in doing so)

posted 14 July 2004 05:18 PM            

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Originally posted by ausur:
[QUOTE] People of African decent played a vital role in civlizations,but in the modern era the only way to fight racism is through modern achievements. Most of the people making racist claims about Africans never having civlization never developed one in antiquity either. Celtics and Germanic people were barbarians that never had structured soceity.

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Precisely the point I have been trying to make. The fact that Celtics and Germanic people were once barbarians when Africans were living in more structured societies, doesn't prevent the descendants of those Europeans to claim superiority over other races. In fact, they claim to be the fore-bearers of civilization. Their stories, no matter how historically absurd,are nevertheless creating a basis for the "psychological" battlefied they've (people of European descent) created. They feel the need to go back to history, to make a stand that they've always been the superior being until present. Yes, we need to make a very strong emphasis on modern accomplishments. But we too, have to go back to history, and state facts as it happened. You should know that the same tactics used to conceal African/Black historical accomplishments, is still at work today. In fact, this has been a fairly recent(16th, 18th century onwards)phenomenon to use history as truth, while at the same time spreading illusions. This is why it is important to emphasize historical accomplishments, as well as modern era accomplishments. The power of story telling, has often been underestimated by Africans/blacks.

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Posted by ausur:
The other problem is the primary focus on Kmt to other civlizations on African soil that deserve equal attention. What about Meroe,Aksum or even Benin in western Africa. Africans in these areas had complex soceities. Just because many don't have the pyramids or acclaim from Greco-Roman writers makes them no less spectacular.
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posted 14 July 2004 05:25 PM            

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But our discussion on this board, is specifically focused on Kemet.

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posted 14 July 2004 06:04 PM            

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Originally posted by rasol:
Supercar: I find it odd that you are sometimes asked to focus on other parts of Africa on an AE forum, and at the same time criticized for your imho excellent range of topics concerning AE just because the ethnic issue invariably surfaces.
I mean -> would they rather you start a thread on the martial arts techniques of the Zulu?

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Rasol, you know that no matter how much you try, you can’t always win! As such, I just go ahead and state things the way I see them. Should a debate or controversy arise about the subject matter, that is fine with me. If anyone wants to refute them, be my guest. I can survive just about any debate. In fact, I encourage the debates.

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Posted by ausur:
Bernal believes that the Hykos who invaded Egypt brought Kemetian civlization with them and became the Pelasgisans of ancient Greece. He argues from a linguistic view that most of the words in Greek are infact of Afro-Asiatic origin thus the name Afro-Asiatic. Bernal believes that most of the catalyst for the start of Greco-Roman civlization was Phonecian…Contrary to what most think, Bernal argues that Upper Egyptians can be called fundamentally black;while Lower Egyptians cannot. The black Athena title is decieveing,for Bernal wrote the book to decrase European arrogance and not for the purposes some people think.

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Bernal would indeed be wrong if he stressed that foreign origin of Kemetian civilization. The African customs of Kemetian society cannot be overlooked. We’ve discussed this before. You do however, make a point about the likes of Bernal just attempting to decrease European arrogance, rather than totally eliminating it. That is why, as Emeagwali put it, it is important for Africans/Blacks to tell our story from our perspective. As you can see from your comment above, you have just made it easy to see what Emeagwali was trying to tell his audience. Regarding Euclid, you said something along this line :

“You can't just say Greeks or Romans got everything from Kmt without being specific and too the point. Enegawli sites no examples.”

I don’t think you believe for a moment, that he said such a thing, that Greeks and Romans got “everything” from Kemet. He talked about many Greek mathematicians having been in Kemet, and having learnt their material from Kemet. That is all he said. The example he sited happened to be “Euclid”.

posted 14 July 2004 08:06 PM            

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Posted by ausur:
Kemetian knowleadge never really decreased at the period of the Dyanstic era. When the Persians ruled Egypt they never supressed the Egyptian scriptoriums nor the medical schools that were active the in the area of Sais. The 25th dyansty brought upon the Saite Reinssance that existed around the 26th dyansty.

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It is funny that you made some exchanges about the decline of intellect as the dynasty progressed. Math expert Milo Gardner had something to say about that :

“Scholars first attempted to decode the Egyptian Mathematical Leather Roll (EMLR ) contents in 1927. In presenting their conclusions, the algebraic aspects were omitted. Perhaps one reason was that classical scholars had previously reported that Egyptian fractions showed signs of intellectual decline from Middle Kingdom mathematics (Neugebauer).

There are signs of improvement, refuting Neugebaur's issue of intellectual decline. A debate has begun on the Pythagorean side of the Babylonian Plimpton 322 (Robson), that introduces a fresh set of historical methods. This regional debate extends to the evaluation of Egyptian fractions, beyond issues of additive mathematics.

The Egyptian fraction notation system was a sign of enlightenment, and NOT of intellectual decline (Neugebauer). (Gardener’s is talking about the Middle Kingdom in this case)

The EMLR explores elementary 1/p and 1/pq conversion methods, beginning with odd and even rational numbers, ending up with a new Egyptian fraction numeration system. This new numeration system ciphered hieroglyphic numbers (1:1 basis), phasing out hieroglyphic many-to-one codes, except the lowest mathematical problems, (Boyer).

The Old Kingdom's duplation method continued in use long after the introduction of Hieratic script's Egyptian fractions. The RMP (Rhind mathematical papyrus) solves 84 problems but does not directly explain the contents of its 2/n table. The RMP appears to write Old Kingdom "quick and dirty proofs" (Robins-Shute duplation method) to explain 1/p, 1/pq, 2/p, 2/pq and several n/p and n/pq series. However another paper needs to be written, along the lines that Brown suggests, that reveal simpler methods, as Medieval scholars also developed.

Middle Kingdom tabular methods began to be phased out after the time of Diophantus (100 AD). Proof is provided by the existence of an indeterminate method used in India by Mahavira (850 AD), that looks very much like the method that Fibonacci used (1202 AD) in Liber Abbaci, where vulgar fractions of any p/q were computed in the concise manner of the EMLR and RMP 2/nth table.”

posted 24 October 2005 08:57 AM            

Any new information on Kemetian Mathematics?

posted 24 October 2005 01:24 PM            

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Originally posted by supercar:

Twelve years ago, a magazine hired a white man to prepare an illustration of a supercomputer wizard riding an ox. I was supposed to be the supercomputer wizard. But the white illustrator, who knew that I am black, portrayed me as a white person in his published illustration.”
I learned that the white illustrator was searching for himself in me.

The first draft of a portrait that depicted Emeagwali as a supercomputer wizard driving a carriage powered by thousands of chickens (a metaphor for his 65,000 weak processors that performed the world's fastest computation). The "Negro Emeagwali" (shown in this illustration) was rejected and replaced with a "Caucasian Emeagwali" (shown below).

A "whitened" Caucasian portrait of Emeagwali was acceptable and widely published. One illustrator argued that Emeagwali has a trace of Caucasian blood and said that he could see the "Caucasian look" in his face...

Ladies and gentlemen, [b]we should give credit where credit is due. Scholars name a book after its author. Scientists name a discovery after the discoverer. And technologists name an invention after the inventor.
Why then were African textbooks Europeanized by naming them after European cities and persons? The reason is that the story is mightier than the warrior. Ancient Africans were the ancient warriors and modern Europeans are the modern storytellers.

We should teach our children that:
Science is the gift of ancient Africa to our modern world.
Finally, and most importantly, we should remind them that
Africans were the carriers of light.
Africans were not waiting in darkness for others to bring light to them.

Note: Emeagwali won the 1989 Gordon Bell Prize, which has been called "supercomputing's Nobel Prize," for inventing a formula that allows computers to perform their fastest computations - a discovery that inspired the reinvention of supercomputers. He was extolled by then U.S. President Bill Clinton as "one of the great minds of the Information Age" and described by CNN as "a Father of the Internet;" and is the most searched-for scientist on the Internet.

All content of quotes is exclusively taken from Emeagwali’s website: http://emeagwali.com/speeches/black-history-month/african-history-lost-stolen-or- strayed.html

[/B]

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I agree with Ausar that much of what Emeagwali says about these Hellenistic scholars being black may not be true. However, even if it is false, it is NOTHING like the crazy dispicable racist lie that these publishers created!!!

Wow, talk about white racist lies! These publishers should be ashamed of themselves! To think that it is so difficult to believe that such genius could come from a black man, one from Africa no less.

Stuff like this is descipable!

posted 25 October 2005 02:25 PM            

So who actually were Euclid and Heron(supposed inventor of the proto-steam engine)? If they were Greeks then they must have had family in Greece--yet we have no evidence that they ever visited Greece.

The thing about Alexandria being the centre of Greek science and mathematics is that no other colonising nation has done the same in history.

What Greece did vis a vis Alexandria would be like France, after conquering Algeria, deciding to transfer all its scientific research to Algiers. I use this example because Algerai was settled by the French and it is not that far from France compared to other ex-French colonies.