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Author	Topic: Was Rameses II a Redhead?
Wally Member Posts: 320 Registered: Oct 2003	posted 11 September 2004 01:41 PM (Probably only his embalmer knows for sure...) There are four factors which would account for the red color of Rameses' hair, none of which would exclude the other factors. A) The obvious effects of x-radiation upon the mummy B) The Embalm-ment Process Sir Gaston Maspero who unwrapped the mummy of Rameses II, one of the first to see the face of the Pharaoh writes: quote: "on the temples there are a few sparse hairs, but at the poll the hair is quite thick, forming smooth, straight locks about five centimeters in length. White at the time of death, they have been dyed a light yellow by the spices used in the embalm-ment...the moustache and beard are thin...The hairs are white, like those of the head and eyebrows...the skin is of earthy brown, splotched with black...the face of the mummy gives a fair idea of the face of the living king." Valley of the Kings by John Romer, Castle Books, p184 (A significant observation was also made by Maspero to the effect that the mummy had a 'low brow' or was prognathous, which in ethnological terms indicates a Negroid individual. ) C) The practice of dying gray hair The Ancient Egyptians used a variety of methods to eliminate Gray hair. Henna dyed the natural black hair an auburn color, while turning the unpigmented gray hairs a bright orange. Hair would sometimes be dyed after death. Rameses II is an example. Examine the photo of the Afar elder... http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/people.html D) A natural red head In her book "Ramesess - Egypt's Greatest Pharaoh" (sic!), Joyce Tyldesley references the French examination of the pharaoh and their conclusion that Rameses II had naturally red hair. This is predicated upon one true factor that would serve to give credence to the scientific evaluation of the mummy's hair: -- The Seti/Ramessid dynasty was originated by royals from the North, specifically the Delta region. Blacks, especially during this epoch, were heavily mixed with foreign whites and/or Asiatics, and tended to be lighter than those of the valley. So the existence of Blacks with red hair was probably a common occurrence, about as much as it is amongst present day African Americans, for example. It's debatable, however, how socially acceptable this would be to the population, for as Diop points out that when a Kemetian encountered someone with white skin and red hair, they would kill that person. Was it then socially acceptable to be Black with red hair? [This message has been edited by Wally (edited 11 September 2004).] IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 616 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 11 September 2004 03:21 PM For all the statues of Rameses there are apparently not too many pictures. Anyone have pics. of R2* and care to post them? * no, not the droid from star wars. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 11 September 2004).] IP: Logged
supercar Member Posts: 733 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 11 September 2004 07:03 PM Personally, I think Ramsis II was a mulatto, an African with Asian admixture. In that respect, it would be very likely that the original hair would be dark colored. Even if it did have a tinge of red color to it, this phenomena isn't unsual among Africans! But like rasol said, earliest photographs would help to visualize it better. But again, in black & white, who knows how much accurate information one can get, aside from hair looking darker than if it were blonde! IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 616 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 11 September 2004 08:33 PM Actually I was referring to pictures in paintings, not of the mummy. IP: Logged
supercar Member Posts: 733 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 11 September 2004 10:44 PM quote: Originally posted by rasol: Actually I was referring to pictures in paintings, not of the mummy. Paintings, as in by the Egyptians themselves, or by other artists? [This message has been edited by supercar (edited 11 September 2004).] IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 616 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 11 September 2004 11:01 PM quote: Originally posted by supercar: Paintings, as in by the Egyptians themselves, or by other artists? The AE of course. I just want to see how his hair was depicted. IP: Logged
ausar Moderator Posts: 2380 Registered: Feb 2003	posted 11 September 2004 11:13 PM Most Egyptian portraits and statues tend to have close cropped black colored hair. Rarely do you ever see the pharoah's hair or even the hair of the commoner unless it's a wig. Most portraits of Rameses II[which by the way is not his real Kemetian name] show him wearing various crowns but never his own hair. The only sculpture we see his hair is of him as a child wearing the sid lock of youth. Otherwise you would have never known his hair color. IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 616 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 11 September 2004 11:30 PM What was his real name? IP: Logged
supercar Member Posts: 733 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 12 September 2004 12:46 AM quote: Originally posted by rasol: The AE of course. I just want to see how his hair was depicted. Well then, you should be able to finding something on that over the internet. Here are some: The second one shows Ramses II with black hair, but it could also be a wig. This Egyptian Papyrus painting depicts Offering to Ramses II and Isis. [This message has been edited by supercar (edited 12 September 2004).] IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 616 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 12 September 2004 09:38 AM quote: Originally posted by supercar: Well then, you should be able to finding something on that over the internet. Here are some: The second one shows Ramses II with black hair, but it could also be a wig. This Egyptian Papyrus painting depicts Offering to Ramses II and Isis. Thanks. Since it is commonly stated that Rameses II had red hair, and even explained as a particular ethnic trait of the Rameses', per se, and one of which they were supposedly 'proud', I am interested in whether there is any actual basis for it. Or perhaps, like 'black soil' = kmt it is another European legend, repeated until it is accepted as fact, and then embellished when and where necessary. IP: Logged
*neogeo** Member Posts: 534 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 12 September 2004 10:39 AM Redhaired people are rare but not absent in north Africa. I've seen redhaired Egyptians and a few berbers with redhair... IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 616 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 12 September 2004 10:47 AM quote: Originally posted by neogeo: Redhaired people are rare but not absent in north Africa. I've seen redhaired Egyptians and a few berbers with redhair...* Yes I agree with that. IP: Logged
Osiris II Member Posts: 165 Registered: Nov 2003	posted 12 September 2004 12:02 PM It's awfully difficut to tell Rameses II hair color from AE portraits. As ausar says, most times he was shown wearing a crown that covered most of his hair, and that that did show was more than likely a wig.Henna, while used to color hair quite frequently, will turn gray hair orange, but gives black or dark brown hair an auburn sheen. The most logical explination for Rameses II blondish-red hair on his mummy is that, being an old man, he probably had white or light gray hair. The ungents and resins used on his mummy would stain the hair to the light colors described. His original color as a younger man? Almost impossible to say, but a dark red is not impossible by any means. IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 616 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 12 September 2004 12:17 PM quote: Originally posted by Osiris II: It's awfully difficut to tell Rameses II hair color from AE portraits. As ausar says, most times he was shown wearing a crown that covered most of his hair, and that that did show was more than likely a wig.Henna, while used to color hair quite frequently, will turn gray hair orange, but gives black or dark brown hair an auburn sheen. The most logical explination for Rameses II blondish-red hair on his mummy is that, being an old man, he probably had white or light gray hair. The ungents and resins used on his mummy would stain the hair to the light colors described. His original color as a younger man? Almost impossible to say, but a dark red is not impossible by any means. That sounds plausible as well. I find it odd that people would look to mummies, esp. older ones for irrefutable evidence of hair color, for exactly those reasons. I would prefer some historical reference, or portraiture to confirm such a trait. Otherwise, I think it simply cannot be stated for a fact, one way or another. IP: Logged
ausar Moderator Posts: 2380 Registered: Feb 2003	posted 12 September 2004 01:01 PM Still during Rameses II time there was quite a few foregin mercenaries settled amungst the autochronous population in the Delta. Probabaly even some Hykos people remained in the Delta,and over the years a gradual migration of Caanite[Palestinean] people migrated into the Delta. We know as far back as the 12th dyansty as Sinuhe tells us that Southern Upper Egypt and the furthest part of the Delta was so distinct that people from the regions would not reognize themselves nor understand the speech of the people in Upper Egypt. Rameses II's ancestors came from non-royal ancestry from a mercenary family that was promoted by Horemheb. We know that most of the mercenaries in Egyptian armies tended to be either Libyans,Caanites,and Nubians. Around this time quite a few Libyans migrated into the Delta often intermarrying with local Egyptian women and producing offspring. Makes sense to me also that Rameses II Caanite heritage since one of his own daughters is named Bint Anath[Bint means daughter in Arabic],so it appears that his family origin also included Caanite elements. Let me point out something I have before is that many races of people often have blondism in early youth. This includes the aboriginals,Melanesians,and even modern Nubians. Thus you can't really use hair color as an ethnic marker in the case of Egyptians. Albinism might be another factor. Wigs in ancient Egypt were made of various colors including yellow,blue,and even red. Most Egyptian scenes with the exception of the Fowling in the marshes scene in the Tomb of Nebamun and Hesi-Re show wigs. Unfortunatley,I looked all over for the sculpture of Rameses II as a youth and I cannot find it. I believe the sculpture shows him next to Heru bearing the sidelock of youth. The only way we can know the original hair color or texture of a mummy is through electron analysis. I have read a few reports that Rameses II hair was a natural reddish color from these studies but I am also somewhat skeptical of the labratories they were tested in. Through time,weather,burial conditions,and chemicals used in mummification process turns hair color unnatural colors. Hair also loses elasticity from mummification. The pharoah had more than one name such as the nomen[usually his home residenence],the sem-tawy name[king of Upper and Lower Egypt],and Heru name[the pharoah being a manifestation of Heru] Rameses II heru name was Usermaatresetepenre. [This message has been edited by ausar (edited 12 September 2004).] IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 616 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 12 September 2004 01:14 PM quote: Originally posted by ausar: [B] Rameses II heru name was Usermaatresetepenre. B] Damn. I'll just call him Rameses thank you. I'm sure most have seen this, but for those who haven't: http://highculture.8m.com/r2.htm IP: Logged
supercar Member Posts: 733 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 12 September 2004 04:07 PM quote: Originally posted by rasol: Damn. I'll just call him Rameses thank you. I'm sure most have seen this, but for those who haven't: http://highculture.8m.com/r2.htm Once again, it's amazing what facial reconstruction can do, using forensics. This would probably be a shocking development for people who have a certain romanticized image of Ramses II, from the reddish or as some say, "blondish" color hair of the mummy! IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 616 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 12 September 2004 04:38 PM quote: Originally posted by supercar: Once again, it's amazing what facial reconstruction can do, using forensics. This would probably be a shocking development for people who have a certain romanticized image of Ramses II, from the reddish or as some say, "blondish" color hair of the mummy! The picture also concurs with Wally's earlier comment about Maspero's observation: "the mummy was prognathous". (everted, rather than inverted mouth) IP: Logged
Wally Member Posts: 320 Registered: Oct 2003	posted 12 September 2004 04:45 PM Hello, everybody... http://www.africawithin.com/malcolmx/malcolmcolor.jpg Malcolm... [This message has been edited by Wally (edited 12 September 2004).] IP: Logged
Horemheb Member Posts: 298 Registered: Jan 2004	posted 13 September 2004 10:39 AM Supercar...when i want to just crack up laughing I look at some of these extreme posts. your picture of Ramses II is simply comical. I'm waitinh for the picture of Cleopatra that looks like Aretha Franklin. IP: Logged
sunstorm2004 Member Posts: 130 Registered: Mar 2004	posted 13 September 2004 08:54 PM I've always thought redheads were rare even in Europe, let alone in Africa. Anyway, I would never guess the face below to belong to a redhead... IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 616 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 13 September 2004 10:42 PM lol. i was wondering if you were going to respond to "homie." however this time, i agree with him. i found this definitive picture of ramesis on the stormfront white power website: You cannot deny high powered proof like this!!!! IP: Logged
supercar Member Posts: 733 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 14 September 2004 01:19 AM quote: Originally posted by Horemheb: Supercar...when i want to just crack up laughing I look at some of these extreme posts. your picture of Ramses II is simply comical. I'm waitinh for the picture of Cleopatra that looks like Aretha Franklin. Gee thanks! I would really love to take credit for painting those images, but that would be dishonest, you know. If you have issues with those papyrus paintings, I strongly recommend you confront the Ancient Egyptian artists who painted them! You do have an option of meeting them face to face to give them your piece of mind, or you can simply send them a fan mail expressing your critique of their work! Only one problem though...they are DEAD! So you might want to check with your nearest local "communicator with the Dead". Horemheb, I have come to understand that you are not merely delusional, but in real need of psychiatric help! [This message has been edited by supercar (edited 14 September 2004).] IP: Logged
sneuropa Junior Member Posts: 7 Registered: Nov 2003	posted 14 September 2004 11:42 AM [QUOTE] [Makes sense to me also that Rameses II Caanite heritage since one of his own daughters is named Bint Anath[Bint means daughter in Arabic],so it appears that his family origin also included Caanite elements.] Anath is a Syrian goddess. In Ougaritic myth she is a virgin warrior goddess rather like Athena. As a popular goddess I'm sure Anath would have been a popular name amongst Ougaritic-Canaanite girls. regards, sneuropa [This message has been edited by sneuropa (edited 14 September 2004).] IP: Logged
ausar Moderator Posts: 2380 Registered: Feb 2003	posted 14 September 2004 12:39 PM Which is why I suggested that Rameses II might have some Caanite ancestry because of the name of his daughter was very Semetic. Not rare since time memorial we have trickles of Syrian,Phonecian,Caanite,and Hykos in Egypt either by captives in war or by coming to Egypt voluntarily. He obviously named his daughter a very Semetic name like Binat Anath. However,it appears he also embrace matriarchical Kemetian culture being that his mother,Tuya, was his head advisor. She was queen mother and guardian which was alien in Semetic culture. IP: Logged
sneuropa Junior Member Posts: 7 Registered: Nov 2003	posted 15 September 2004 07:17 AM Presumably the daughter was given a Canaanite name because her mother was Canaanite? It seems to me that the Egyptian royal household was of very mixed race. I reckon that with all the foreign princesses sent as gifts/tribute to Egypt most of the princes and princesses could have been quite a mix of Syrian and African (non-KMT) races. Although Rameses had a Kemetian mother and father I think there could have been enough foreign blood to give him red hair. Even if there wasn't red hair in the Kemetian race(s) already. This is not implying that the Ancient Egyptians were "white" (what ever that means anyway). Its obvious that most Kemetians were of dark skin and hair- but there must have been some variety, especially amongst families which contained foreign members. The other question is whether the Canaanites were red haired? I suppose the above implies again but that the Syrians as a whole were paler than Kemetians and had even more foreign influences from Europe and Iran etc. regards, sneuropa IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 616 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 15 September 2004 09:04 AM I thought RamesesII had like eleventy million "wives" and 20 bazillion kids. He always stikes me as the greatest egomaniac in Kemetic history. Statues, more statues of me! And bigger!!!!! [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 15 September 2004).] IP: Logged
ausar Moderator Posts: 2380 Registered: Feb 2003	posted 15 September 2004 11:02 AM Sneuropa,you might notice that during the Middle Kingdom Senworset I and later pharoahs brought in many captives and settled many in the Delta. Many Phonecians,Caanites,Libyans[Berbers],and other groups came in and intermarried with the Delta Egyptians. Already by this time according to the texts of Sinuhe we see that the Delta was distinct from the people in Upper Egypt. What also occured was the Hykos invasion which some scholars believe was a mixture of Hurrian[Indo-European] and Semetic[Caanite] ancestry. Most likely the Hykos according to the Brooklyn papyrus has an effect on the population here. You are right that the royals would sometimes get concubines from foregin lands as gifts,and often bear children. However,I don't believe that these children inherited the throne except under special circumstances. The title ''royal ornament of the king'' was an honor bestowed on various harem women in Egypt,and to have their children become pharoah was also an honor. Not to mention that many conspiracies from the time of Pepi p6th Dyansty] down to Rameses III[19th dyansty there were various attempts to assassinate the pharoah to take power. Indo-European ancestry in the modern area of Syria is plausible because of the Mitanni being right there in Egypt. IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 616 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 15 September 2004 11:26 AM How does this fit in, if at all, with the accusations of anti semite policies often attributed to Rameses II? You know, expulsion (exodus) of the Hebrews and all that? IP: Logged
ausar Moderator Posts: 2380 Registered: Feb 2003	posted 15 September 2004 12:51 PM Rasol, even if Rameses II would have been mixed Caanite/Hykos ancestry he would have at least been culturaly Kemetian. Which would is explain,if true,the common exodous stories. This is a whole new can of worms that I guess we could argue for days about. If you read Manetho and Josephus you will see both equate the Hykos with the exodous Hebrews. Manetho calls the Hebrews leperous people who were forced from Egypt that were followers of Set. We know during the Hykos stay Set enjoyed high status amungst the Hykos people. In later times the Egyptian peasents associated Set with the Ptolomeic Jews who settled in parts of Egypt,and even rejoiced when the Romans overthrew them in revolt. This could be a folk memory of the Hykos event. Some people will even say that Rameses II was not the exodus pharoah. We know from the Mereptah Stela that Israel is mentioned for the first time in historical notion as a nation but not as slaves. Maybe the later Hebrew scribes embellished their stories to satify their egos. We know the Kemetians did a similar thing telling Didorus Siculus they conquered all the way to Persia and India. IP: Logged
Wally Member Posts: 320 Registered: Oct 2003	posted 15 September 2004 01:45 PM quote: Originally posted by rasol: lol. i was wondering if you were going to respond to "homie." however this time, i agree with him. i found this definitive picture of ramesis on the stormfront white power website: You cannot deny high powered proof like this!!!! This is great. I love it... IP: Logged
Wally Member Posts: 320 Registered: Oct 2003	posted 15 September 2004 01:49 PM Know one seems to have picked up on my original comment about the French and their 'discovery' -"the French examination of the pharaoh and their conclusion that Rameses II had naturally red hair." When Rameses died, he was well over the age of 90. So whatever the color of his hair when he was 19 years old, it most likely wasn't the same color as when the brother was old. Maspero's observation seems the more plausible (he was the first to see the mummy unwrapped). White hair that was chemically dyed (on purpose or not). Know one seems to question the French researchers on their 'discovery'... And isn't anyone here familiar with the Masai Moran? Amongst them (and a lot of other East African groups), artificially dyed red hair is a fetish! ... [This message has been edited by Wally (edited 15 September 2004).] IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 616 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 15 September 2004 02:49 PM quote: And isn't anyone here familiar with the Masai Moran? Amongst them (and a lot of other East African groups), artificially dyed red hair is a fetish! Of course, but the Kemetians according to Diop viewed red hair as taboo. Among many Africans red hair is associated with famine and dietary deficiency. My opinion is that if the goal is to deny the Africaness of Kemet, then Ramesis red hair, real or imagined doesn't help them. IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 616 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 15 September 2004 06:52 PM "...the type of certain Pharaohs, like Ramses II, appears related to the Abyssinian type." American anthropologist Carlton S. Coon, The Races of Europe, p96, Macmillan 1939 http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/rameses_2.html Consider that observation by Coon in the context of this comment by Loring Brace regarding Herto man (earliest known homo sapien found in Abyssinia (Ethiopia) dated at 150k: "That splendid Ethiopian specimen is a good candidate for being an ancestor of Ethiopians, but not Europeans. C. Loring Brace". Brace argues instead that Neanderthal is the ancestor of European man. Here's what's funny: Coon could argue that Ramesis was Abyssinian type because he believed modern man evolved 1st and most in Europe with other races being lesser evolved deginerate forms (of Europeans). Of course we know today that this is nonsense. Brace argues from the perspective of having to face the reality that man evolved in Africa (ex. herto man). So....he needs Europeans to have their own (neanderthal?) anthropological heritage, separate from African homo sapiens. But if Brace is correct that herto man is the ancester of modern Abysinnian, and not of European man.... and Coon is correct that Ramesis is Abysinnian type, well........ Herto Man 150ky (Ethiopia) These guys play so many games with their "caucasoid" anthropology that they sometimes trap themselves. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 16 September 2004).] IP: Logged
sneuropa Junior Member Posts: 7 Registered: Nov 2003	posted 16 September 2004 09:08 AM [QUOTE] ["You are right that the royals would sometimes get concubines from foregin lands as gifts,and often bear children. However,I don't believe that these children inherited the throne except under special circumstances. The title ''royal ornament of the king'' was an honor bestowed on various harem women in Egypt,and to have their children become pharoah was also an honor."] So they did keep their royal blood lines pure. Thats the origins of "higher races", not all that nonsense on Stormfront. Isn't it more likely that they would have dyed red hair black than vice versa? Also I find it unlikely that black hair could turn red in the tomb. But what if his hair was grey with age? Grey hair could become discoloured in the tomb? It's true that black hair turns red with famine- I've heard of this happening in China too. But not after death. regards, sneuropa [This message has been edited by sneuropa (edited 16 September 2004).] [This message has been edited by sneuropa (edited 16 September 2004).] IP: Logged
ausar Moderator Posts: 2380 Registered: Feb 2003	posted 16 September 2004 10:53 AM Sneuropa,the Ramesseside line has no connection to the previous royal dyansties of the 18th dyansty. His gradfather,Seti I, was a high offical in the military that originally hailed from the Delta. As far as hair changing colors, the process of embalming a mummy in ta bath of natron and other material has shown to have turned hair into blondish reddish colors. Hair also from this process loses elasticity and becomes straight. The only way we can know for sure the original texture or hair color of human hair is through eletron microscopic analysis. Certain archaeological conditions in burial and even salts from the Sahara has turned pre-dyanstic mummies buried naturally into different colors from their original color which was black and tightly curled. Of course,the modern and ancient Egyptian population has a very diverse type of hair texture that include many types from kinky to wavy to even straight in the Delta region. IP: Logged
Aurelia Junior Member Posts: 3 Registered: Jul 2004	posted 18 September 2004 07:17 PM I watched a show on the Amazon women from Mongolia and among all of the dark-haired mongoloids there was a little girl with light skin, red hair and freckles. They think she might be the link between the Amazons that fought in the 10th year of the Trojan war and the modern world. Just my two-cents. IP: Logged

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