posted 13 November 2004 09:49 AM            

This author, Dr. Nana Banchie Darkwah, is a Akan (Ghanian) king. In his book "The Africans Who Wrote The Bible" he asserts that the Akan [ukAn´, Ak´un] people were the core of Egyptian society.

He primarily uses one discipline and that is linguistics. For example, everybody knows of the ancient king Akhenaten. In Dr. Darkwah's books he says that the name "Akhenaten" is a transposed African name. "Akhenaten" is the Greek translation of the royal (Denkyira) name "Akenten". Even today the current Denkyirahene king is named Nana (King) Oti Akenten.

Another example is the boy king "Tutankhamun". In his book Dr. Nana Banchie says this is another Greek translation of the royal Akuapem names "Tutu" and "Ankoma".

Dr. Darkwah is Aduana royalty himself and apparently he has a book called "Egypt: The story Africa has never told" in the works.

I have read "The Africans Who Wrote The Bible" several times and I must say I have accepted it as fact for several reasons.

1) Through cross refrencing I've found that Akan culture is identical to ancient Egyptian culture. For example, the Akan have matrilineal traditions. Another being the worship of Asaase Yaa (Isis) and Osoro (Osirus).

2) King Darkwah's linguistic expertise is undeniable. He says the first king to unite Egypt, "Menes", indigenous name is "Omane" and that is a Kwahu name. Another example is his assertion that the ancient city "Memphis" is really called "Mamfe" and is even a current Akuapem city.

3) When we discuss ancient Egyptians we talk as if they're extinct. True there are descendants of the ancient Egyptians still in Upper Egypt, the Horn of Africa and other East African areas but who can say the kingship is lost? Who can say the descendants of the ancient Egyptians are only concentrated in these areas?

4) I know a young guy who is very much into Egyptology. He's part Egyptian himself. I beat him in the head with my findings for a long time and he admits that the Akan (and other W. African groups like the Yoruba) may have very well been in Egypt during the Old Kingdom. That would explain the linguistic and cultural similarities.

5) I can't recall anytime in history where a African king writes a book discussing ancient secrets of his people. In his book he even has a picture of Akan furniture (Asesedwa) and this stool has the same exact design Egyptians had 4,000 years ago.

All of this is very hard to swallow for someone who has been looking into Egypt for as long as they can remember. I didn't pick up a book entitled "The Africans Who Wrote The Bible" expecting to learn anything about the Egyptians.

I suggest all interested parties and aspiring Egyptologists take a ganders into this book. It has a wealth of information. When you're done and you’re still not convinced, do some independent studying and see what you find.

When I did my studying I found out the Kwa language (Niger-Kordofanian) came from the Chadic languages. So called Semitic (Afro-Asiatic) languages.

I’ve also found that the Akan’s written language consists of symbols, just like the ancient Egyptians.

posted 13 November 2004 12:46 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by supercar:
The migration of various African groups to western Africa over time, must have had something to do with these pygmies being pushed to the central African region, where they can now be found in the Congolese region.

---

Thought Writes:

posted 13 November 2004 01:55 PM            

I am not a linguist so I will not comment on the linguistic questions I myself cannot answer. What I do know is that many groups in Western Africa claim to be desendants of people that came from a great river. The Yoruba, Akan,Ga, Wolof, Lebou, and others all make these claims. The question remains is if these oral stories were supplanted into the local tradition by missionaries or wheather these claims have some validity. We know that sometimes when Africans in northern Africa and Western Africa they would ascribe a ''fake'' pedigree to Arabs to justify their conversion and acceptance in the Islamic world.

The case with some groups like the Akan and Yoruba might be legitmate. Other stories I am rather skeptical of.

What we do know archaeologically is that Western Africa has been inhabited by people since about 30,000 years from what I read. These people according also to oral history of Western Africans were supposed to be little small people that either became assimilated or displaced by migrating larger Africans. In various Greco-Roman accounts such as Hanno,Herodotus, and others talks about little small people inhabiting the interior of Africa. Hanno was a Carthigenian explorer that some say ventured as far as Sierra Leone and Cameroon. In his expeditions he does not record large amounts of people living in Western Africa. However, Herodotus does record people who lived on the fringes of Libya[ often used as a generic term for Africa] that conducted a silent trade with the Carthigenians: meaning the Carthigenians would put smoke signals and the people would leave the item along the shore and only leave when satisfactory amounts were given.

Modern day Western Africa is more populated in modern times then it was in antiquity. The largest amounts of population in Western Africa is located around Nigeria. The question is when did this population swell?

Know it's true that ancent Kmt[Egypt] shares many similarities with Western Africans and other African people. Such examples are the circumcision rites,ancestor veneration,divine kingship,and matrilineal desent[sometimes contested by scholars][1] I am of the belief that during deep in pre-history the Western African population and pre-dyanstic Egyptian population probabaly shared these traits. Most of the modern Western African population probabaly originated around the Central and Southern Sahara but began to migrate to the Niger or the Nile when dessification began. I favor this rather than the opposite theory by Gadalla in Exiled Egyptians: Ancient Egyptians in the Heart of Africa that maintains sucessive waves of Egyptians migrated from Egypt populating Western Africa.[2]

In exploration of this enigma we must consult archaeological sources from Western Africa itself. What we find is a culture called the Kintampo culture dated to around 1500 B.C. which shows the oldest agritculture in Western Africa. Another agricultural site is Dhar Tchitt located in southern Mauritania that was founded by the ancestors of the modern Mande people in Western Africa. The only other people existing in Western Africa at the time were the Proto-Bantu people around 1500 B.C. either around the Benu or Gabon. The rest of Western Africa was not as populated. Notice that Western African archaeology has been greatly neglected by the establishment.

It's interesting you should mention Chadic since a linguist named Mohammed Garba found many similarities not just in word but in overall syntax to the ancient Egyptian language. He wrote his disseration on this and published an article in a maminstream publication. Linguist are just know admitting that Niger-Congo languages really branched off from Nilo-Saharan languages. No connection has been found between Niger-Kofadan and Afro-Asiatic but this definatley deserves investigation. Some question wheater most Afro-Asiatic words in Niger-Kofadan languages came from Tuareg traders or interaction of these traders.[3]

1. Many mainstream Egyptologist of past and present noticed the similarities with ancient Kmt and Africans further south. The following comes from an Egyptologist which revises these theories:

98.1016
CERVELLÓ AUTUORI, Joseph, Egypt, Africa and the Ancient World, in:
Proceedings 7th Int. Congress of Egyptologists, 261-272. (fig.).

The traditional contextualisation of Egypt in the 'Mediterranean' or
'Near Eastern' world has been produced by a phenomenon of western
historiography that we can classify as the 'forgotten Africa'. The
reopening of the African question in Egyptology has proceeded from the
pre- and protohistorians of the Nile Valley and of northern Africa in
general. The inclusion of late prehistoric Egypt in Africa determines
the essentially African nature of many of the central features of
Pharaonic civilisation and explains the many parallels between ancient
Egypt and both the ancient Saharan and modern black civilisations. The
author discusses examples of the iconographic-symbolic parallels
between Saharan rock art and Egyptian art, and the principal cultural
characteristics shared by ancient Egypt and modern black Africa. The
African nature of Egyptian civilisation can be seen most clearly in
the institution of Pharaonic kingship. M.W.K.

2. Moustafa Gadalla is an independent resercher and author of Exiled Egyptians which discusses that ancient Egyptians fled to Western Africa after various invasions.

3. Linguist have found many similarities between Chadic and ancient Kemetian[Egyptian] The following paper discusses Chadic and it's implications and relations with ancient Kemetian. He also critques some of Diop's ideals

http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/schuh/Papers/language_and_history.pdf

posted 13 November 2004 02:22 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

I am not a linguist so I will not comment on the linguistic questions I myself cannot answer. What I do know is that many groups in Western Africa claim to be desendants of people that came from a great river. The Yoruba, Akan,Ga, Wolof, Lebou, and others all make these claims.

---

quote:

---

The case with some groups like the Akan and Yoruba might be legitmate. Other stories I am rather skeptical of.

---

Thats one issue he doesn't really tackle in this book (maybe he will in his next book), this supposed mass migration that would have to had taken place.

quote:

---

3. Linguist have found many similarities between Chadic and ancient Kemetian[Egyptian] The following paper discusses Chadic and it's implications and relations with ancient Kemetian. He also critques some of Diop's ideals

http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/schuh/Papers/language_and_history.pdf

---

posted 13 November 2004 02:26 PM            

quote:

---

Most experts agree that the Afro-Asiatic branch probably spread out of the present-day Sahara.

---

posted 13 November 2004 02:50 PM            

This is a diagram from the book.

posted 13 November 2004 03:15 PM            

Let's discuss how kingship amungst the Akan and Kmt are similar. Most scholars project that the ancient Kemetian kingship died out around the last pharaonic dyansty dated to the 32nd with Necantebo I in which he flees to Nubia according to Diodorus Siculus. My question is do the Akan have an ceremony similar to the heb sed ceremony. This was where the pharaoh had to prove every thirty years he was capable of ruling by proving physical ability. He would run,preform stunts and other physical feats. Any thing similar amungst the Akan?

Also with the pharaoh came regalia such as the shendyt kilt. This was a bull's tail that the pharaoh traditionally wore. Is any of the regalia similar amungst the Akan to the dyanstic Egyptians.

posted 13 November 2004 03:55 PM            

causa sine qua non
In order for the Akan to be placed at the beginning of Pharaonic Egyptian civilization, they must be either related to or associated with the Anu or Mesnitu peoples or both. So guess what we find in the Moudu ro n Kemet:

Akaniu: according to Budge, the Akans(also Akun) were a class of gods (Nteru;ancestors) like Osiris, the Grand Anu.
Sounds like a lock to me.
Also:
a) 'Moudu' names for memphis were Membi AND memfi
b) indirectly supports Diop's thesis that in antiquity taller Blacks formed a cluster in the Nile Valley, and like the ebb of the tide, over the centuries re-populated the African interior.

I've got to read this book...

posted 13 November 2004 04:42 PM            

It's not a transposition, its a different dialect! You have Ikhnaton, Akenaton,Aknten,etc...
And in my humble opinion, -is one of the reasons why the Kememu didn't always write the vowel sounds, since they varied with each (of many) dialect of the language

(we still inevitably give the Greeks too much unearned credit...)

posted 13 November 2004 10:49 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dada Afre:
http://img16.exs.cx/img16/416/17397.jpg

This is a diagram from the book.

[This message has been edited by Dada Afre (edited 13 November 2004).]

---

I finally got this jpg to show up. It is interesting.

posted 14 November 2004 07:42 PM            

Of great interest to me have been:

(1) The Nok terracottas from central Nigeria dated back to 1000BC (this is date is much earlier than the "official date" of 500/600BC and is due to advanced testing techniques outlined in the book):
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/2876602423.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

If you can find a copy of the book in the jpg,(The Birth of Art in Africa), you'll see that many of these terracottas have very elaborate headresses (some of which resemble those of the Pharoahs). Some of them even have their beards braided.

Another sculpture in this style can be found in the first picture from the right on the web page below:
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/nok/hd_nok2.htm

(2) The Dufuna Canoe found in Northern Nigeria near Lake Chad, dated from about 8000BC: http://www.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de/~sfb268/c7/dufuna.htm

(3) Ife Terracottas, Bronzes and monolith from South Western Nigeria: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/ifet/hd_ifet.htm
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/ife/hd_ife.htm

The Metropolitan Museum seems to back date this kingdom to 350BC, whereas most books state 500AD.

(4) The Igbo Ukwu of south-eastern Nigeria: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/igbo/hd_igbo.htm

Ironically, most of these items were discovered by ordinary people undertaking daily duties.

[This message has been edited by fatai (edited 14 November 2004).]

posted 15 November 2004 01:17 AM            

This is why people should stick to the argument of a Central Saharan origin for Western Africans and early pre-dyanstic Egyptians. Many of these claims were made by racist anthropologist during the 19th century to usurp any high culture they found in Western, Central, and Eastern Africa they could. Many African scholars fall for the okie doke of the agenda of diffusionists. Most of this comes from the lack of knowleadge of any other part of Africa except Kmt. This is why I remind people also to investigate other parts of Africa instead of just one civlization.

Which is why I take claims that the Yoruba, Ashnati, or others who claim ancestry from other lands with a grain of salt. The shared customs between modern Western Africans and ancient Kemetians might just be from pre-history instead of recent migration. The stories of Western Africans coming from the north might just be in relation to the dessification of the Sahara. This time period was around 2,000-1,500 BP.

Fatai, you also forgot Kintampo culture in modern day Ghana.
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/ioa/backdirt/Fallwinter00/oti.html
http://www.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=3217875567020

There are other archaeological sites in southern Mauritania like Dar Tchitt. George Peter Murdock, an early anthropologist, argued for independent agritculture for the early Mande speakers in western Africa. Plus reserchers have already proven that Iron metalurgy in Western Africa was independent of outside influces.

One recent mainstream book that deals with the questions is entitled Ancient Egypt in Africa by David O'Connor Another one is Egypt in Africa by Theodore Celenko. The latter book is hard to find and out of print.

posted 15 November 2004 06:06 AM            

I agree with you that more should be done to establish a Central Saharan origin for many of the ethnic groups of West Africa.

Some of these diffusionist theories aren't very credible. It's a case of diffusionism vs indigenous creation, and I think the possibility of the latter is often ignored.

The term "Yoruba" is used to define a grouping of different ethnicities, for example Ijesha, Ijebu, Ekiti, Egba etc. The people of the Old Oyo kingdom are considered to be "proper" Yoruba, whilst the rest are said to have arrived in later waves of migration. Thus it is unlikely that they all originated from a common source.

For example, the Ijebu trace their ancestry to Chad, whilst the roots of Oyo are said to be further north.

Additionally, the numerous dialectal and cultural differences that historically existed between the various groups would further suggest different origins. It is for these reasons that centralized control was very dificult in the past.

posted 15 November 2004 11:25 AM            

The Central Saharan and Southern Saharan origin has already been proven since the people of the rock art pratice similar rituals to modern day Fulani people. Also the scarification marks and hair styles match people as far south as Central Africa. The skeletal remains in the Sahara also match modern day sub-Saharan Africans.

BTW, what is the origin of the word Yoruba? Didn't the Hausa people call people who didn't pratice Islam that?

posted 15 November 2004 01:45 PM            

quote:

---

Ausar asked
BTW, what is the origin of the word Yoruba? Didn't the Hausa people call people who didn't pratice Islam that?

---

1) It's supposed to be a Yoruba derived word. J. Olumide Lucas gave an explanation, of which I can only paraphrase since it's been a while...it had something to do with a Kemetian deity "Rpa" combined with the Yoruba expression "ye ye" which means to swear by this deity -- Ye Ye Rpa. Who knows, but there is a Kemetian deity named Roba or Ropa; also Yo in the Yoruba language can be compared to "Ioh/Yoh" or 'moon' in the Kemetian language. Remember the expression Ba-Ra-Ka or blessing; thus, Yo-Ra-Ba isn't implausible...

diffusion AND originality
2) In this discussion, I think what is being ignored is the very nature of African migrations throughout African history, even up to the very present. African workers today, if nothing else, are extremely mobile.
You had clusters of African peoples, originally, in the Great Lakes region, the Nile Valley, the Horn, the Sahara; populations ebbing and flowing.

--It's possible, and probably likely that the Tutsi, for example, started near the Great Lakes, emigrated into the fertile Sahara, later went into the Nile Valley, only to return centuries later to the Great Lakes region (and a very different people in terms of their experiences)...

--What is Ethiopia or Nigeria, for example, but a cluster of pan-African peoples?

posted 15 November 2004 02:30 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

BTW, what is the origin of the word Yoruba? Didn't the Hausa people call people who didn't pratice Islam that?

---

The word Yoruba is apparently derived from a derogatory term from the Hausa language. The original name for the Yoruba was Nango/Anango.

In fact many Yoruba descendants in Cuba and Brazil have used this term in the past. Use of the word Yoruba was a recent development (historically speaking) and I think can be traced back to Hausa contact with Europeans.

Additionally, Islam is widespread amongst the Yoruba and in some regions, e.g. Ilorin,it is the dominant religion.

posted 15 November 2004 02:44 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:
1) It's supposed to be a Yoruba derived word. J. Olumide Lucas gave an explanation, of which I can only paraphrase since it's been a while...it had something to do with a Kemetian deity "Rpa" combined with the Yoruba expression "ye ye" which means to swear by this deity -- Ye Ye Rpa. Who knows, but there is a Kemetian deity named Roba or Ropa; also Yo in the Yoruba language can be compared to "Ioh/Yoh" or 'moon' in the Kemetian language. Remember the expression Ba-Ra-Ka or blessing; thus, Yo-Ra-Ba isn't implausible...

[b] diffusion AND originality
2) In this discussion, I think what is being ignored is the very nature of African migrations throughout African history, even up to the very present. African workers today, if nothing else, are extremely mobile.
You had clusters of African peoples, originally, in the Great Lakes region, the Nile Valley, the Horn, the Sahara; populations ebbing and flowing.

--It's possible, and probably likely that the Tutsi, for example, started near the Great Lakes, emigrated into the fertile Sahara, later went into the Nile Valley, only to return centuries later to the Great Lakes region (and a very different people in terms of their experiences)...

--What is Ethiopia or Nigeria, for example, but a cluster of pan-African peoples?

---

posted 15 November 2004 02:51 PM            

Because of the rather poor state of archaeological understanding, especially within the tropical forest zone, linguistics has played a large role in African prehistory. Greenberg (1963) proposed that continental African languages fall into four major phyla: Niger-Congo (including the Atlantic, Mande, Voltaic, Kwa, Adamawa, and Bantu families), Nilo-Saharan (including east and central Sudanic, Saharan, and Songhai), Afroasiatic (Semitic, Berber, Cushitic, and Chadic), and Khoisan (San and Khoikhoi). It has been suggested that the initial development of the first three families took place somewhere between the Sahara and the equatorial forest (Blench 1993).

^^^
Map of Africa showing the samples used in the present work. The pie charts represent the haplogroup composition of the main African regions, combining some sub-clades for convenience, and excluding the contribution of haplogroups of non-African origin.

Source: The Making of the African mtDNA Landscape (2002)

posted 15 November 2004 03:15 PM            

One problem with this abstract is it said that no domesticable animals were found in sub-Saharan. The Guinea fowl is one of the only animals in sub-Sahara that is domesticable,but the rest are not domesticable. Also there is a rare goat amungst the Massai that is red haired that is found only in Kenya.

Also the main crop from Egypt such as barely originated either in the Nile Valley during the Paleolithic or was introduced from Ethiopia. The only other Near-Eastern Crop in ancient Egypt was emer wheat but this does not mean diffusion from the Near East. Cattle within Africa are domestic and have different mutations than Near-Eastern or European cattle breeds. The Donkey was most likely domesticated in North-Eastern Africa and spread to the Near-East.

Most modern linguist believe Nilo-Saharan and Niger-Congo are directly connected to each other.

posted 15 November 2004 03:21 PM            

quote:

---

And yet, we know the pregnant (and unasked) question then becomes: what happened?; to the writing; the building traditions (with stone); the advanced metal working; the artistic traditions?

---

1. Not everybody in ancient Kmt[Egypt] could read or write mdu ntr.

2. Western Africans had Iron metalurgy and the Haya people produced carbon steel. Ancent Egyptians only produced bronze and copper.

posted 15 November 2004 03:38 PM            

quote:

---

1. Not everybody in ancient Kmt[Egypt] could read or write mdu ntr.

2. Western Africans had Iron metalurgy and the Haya people produced carbon steel. Ancent Egyptians only produced bronze and copper.

---

posted 15 November 2004 05:04 PM            

quote:

---

Ausar, good points; didn't know about the Haya making carbon steel? Any more info on that?

---

The resercher on African matalurgy is Peter Schmidt and D.H. Avery. Schmidt has written many good books on the archaeology of Africa.

See the following abstract:

http://jfa-www.bu.edu/Abstracts/S/SchmidtP_10_4.html

posted 15 November 2004 07:25 PM            

quote:

---

J. Olumide Lucas, (a Yoruba), "The religion of the Yorubas", first published 1948,
republished by Athelia Henrietta Press, Brooklyn, NY, 1996. (see p. 349 for

sources which speak of Yoruba migration from the Nile Valley. As I said, the linguistic evidence is corroborative.)

The Yoruba word for crocodile is Oni and is used interchangeably in addressing the Ooni of Ife. See "Egyptian Hieroglyphics" by Stephane

Rossini, published by Dover Inc. See also "A Hieroglyphic Vocabulary" by

E.A. Wallis Budge, especially pages 321, 322, 323, 392, 394,.See"Lettre a M.

---

posted 15 November 2004 09:23 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

The Central Saharan and Southern Saharan origin has already been proven since the people of the rock art pratice similar rituals to modern day Fulani people.

---

posted 15 November 2004 09:58 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by kembu:

Actually, the fulani/fulbe people are more of a recent migration to Western African from the Nile Valley.

---

Thought writes:

posted 16 November 2004 12:14 AM            

quote:

---

Actually, the fulani/fulbe people are more of a recent migration to Western African from the Nile Valley. Phenotypically, they approximate the ancient Egyptian look than other people in West Africa.

---

A Fulani historian named Amadoua Hampate Ba claims that the ritual shown in the Bovid rock art in the Sahara is similar to a modern ritual of the Fulani people that live in the modern day Sahel.

posted 16 November 2004 05:16 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Ausar, good points; didn't know about the Haya making carbon steel? Any more info on that?

---

I think Unesco did a project about this a few years ago:
http://portal.unesco.org/es/ev.php-URL_ID=3432&URL_DO=DO_PRINTPAGE&URL_SECTION=201.html

posted 16 November 2004 09:40 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by fatai:
I think Unesco did a project about this a few years ago:
http://portal.unesco.org/es/ev.php-URL_ID=3432&URL_DO=DO_PRINTPAGE&URL_SECTION=201.html

---

Good stuff,thx.

posted 16 November 2004 10:09 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Perhaps the connection between the AE and the mediveal Yoruba can be found in the Garamantian Empire which had an Egytpianized culture AND expanded its territory to Nigeria.

---

posted 16 November 2004 10:26 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by fatai:
This subject has generated much debate, but unfortunately not much archaeological work has been undertaken.

Of great interest to me have been:

(1) The Nok terracottas from central Nigeria dated back to 1000BC (this is date is much earlier than the "official date" of 500/600BC and is due to advanced testing techniques outlined in the book):
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/2876602423.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

If you can find a copy of the book in the jpg,(The Birth of Art in Africa), you'll see that many of these terracottas have very elaborate headresses (some of which resemble those of the Pharoahs). Some of them even have their beards braided.

Another sculpture in this style can be found in the first picture from the right on the web page below:
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/nok/hd_nok2.htm

(2) The Dufuna Canoe found in Northern Nigeria near Lake Chad, dated from about 8000BC: http://www.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de/~sfb268/c7/dufuna.htm

(3) Ife Terracottas, Bronzes and monolith from South Western Nigeria: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/ifet/hd_ifet.htm
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/ife/hd_ife.htm

The Metropolitan Museum seems to back date this kingdom to 350BC, whereas most books state 500AD.

(4) The Igbo Ukwu of south-eastern Nigeria: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/igbo/hd_igbo.htm

Ironically, most of these items were discovered by ordinary people undertaking daily duties.

[This message has been edited by fatai (edited 14 November 2004).]

[This message has been edited by fatai (edited 14 November 2004).]

---

You see, I read about the Dufuna Canoe a little while ago. I think that as well as the discovery of the Uan Muhuggiag changes everything.

As far as the book goes, this author isn't saying that West African and Egyptians are different peoples.

He's saying the Akan of West Africa (11 tribes, 8 clans) were central to Egyptian society all throughout the pharonic period.

Even as late as the 26th dynasty. On page 350 he says "Psammetichus'" indigenous name is Asamoa Ateko I. Another Akan name. He easily discerns Akan names out of Egyptian history, from Menes (Omane) on.

The famous Egyptian sot "Djesekaraseneb" he says indigenous name is Gyasi Krasenboo.

He does this all throughout the book, venturing off into China and India as well.

He also has very bold things to say about the so-called "Sumerians" & "Akkadians".

posted 16 November 2004 12:22 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought writes:

Genetic and linguistic data do NOT support this contention.

---

What genetic data are you referring to specifically?

African linguistic classifications are still being studied, partly because it now appears that earlier classifications were somehow inaccurate. Much remains to be done in this area as yet.

But in terms of phenotype, it is clear that the Fulbe/fulani have more in common with ancient and modern Egyptian (fellahin) than any other ethnic group in West Africa. Fulbe have typically the modern Upper Egyptian look.

If you take the reconstructed faces of King Tut and the mummy believed to be Nefertiti and place them among West Africans, they would readily be identified as Fulbe.

The "recent" migration is a relative concept (circa 2000, as opposed to 30,000 years).

posted 16 November 2004 01:38 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by kembu:
Actually, the fulani/fulbe people are more of a recent migration to Western African from the Nile Valley.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought writes:
Genetic and linguistic data do NOT support this contention.

---

quote:

---

Wally
posted 23 September 2004 01:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's a relevant response that I received from a recent visitor to my website commenting on my "referenced source categorization" of the Hamitic language grouping :

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(the) Fulbe (Fulani) originate from the Nile Valley, not from Northwestern Africa. There is nothing in our tradition that links us with Berbers. I don't even know how that theory cropped up. How come Fulbe are placed in the Western Hamitic group?
BTW, I don't dig the "hamitic"/"semitic" classifications. They just don't seem to make any sense. Africans are just Africans. Jim Crow laws would have applied to all of us, regardless of these hamitic/bantu classifications.
Great site, though.
Best Regards,

I...... S....... Bah

---

Mr. Bah also sent me photos of himself and his family, who are definitely Fulani folk.

I really doubt that these various African ethnic groups (Yoruba, Wolof, Fulani, etc.) all got together one fine day and decided to spin a common tale about all of them originating from the Nile valley...

posted 16 November 2004 01:48 PM            

quote:

---

I really doubt that these various African ethnic groups (Yoruba, Wolof, Fulani, etc.) all got together one fine day and decided to spin a common tale about all of them originating from the Nile valley...

---

Well, oral history can sometimes be manipulated by the right parities. Many Western African groups when they adopted Islam often made some false pedigrees to trace them back to Mecca. The same phenomenon happened with some people amungst the Fellahin in Upper Egypt. This is why I am sometimes cautious about these claims. The Songhai would have you believe they originated in Yemen, and the Hausa would have you believe they originated in Iraq. Neither one of these are true.

Read Amadou Hamparte Ba's work in english or French about the Saharan origin of the Fulani people. He matched the rituals of the rock art with his own people's modern pratice with cattle.

posted 16 November 2004 07:08 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

Well, oral history can sometimes be manipulated by the right parities. Many Western African groups when they adopted Islam often made some false pedigrees to trace them back to Mecca. The same phenomenon happened with some people amungst the Fellahin in Upper Egypt. This is why I am sometimes cautious about these claims. The Songhai would have you believe they originated in Yemen, and the Hausa would have you believe they originated in Iraq. Neither one of these are true.

Read Amadou Hamparte Ba's work in english or French about the Saharan origin of the Fulani people. He matched the rituals of the rock art with his own people's modern pratice with cattle.

---

posted 16 November 2004 09:48 PM            

Thought Writes:

M1 is the most common mtDNA Haplotype in the Nile Valley and East Africa. E3b is the most common Y-Chromosome Haplotype in the Nile Valley and East Africa.

In Rosa et al. 2004 the Fulani sample from the Republic of Guine Bissau LACK the M1 marker. On the other hand, in the same study the M1 marker is found in the Balanta, Bijago and Beafada ethnic groups.

In Cruciani et al 2004 the E3b marker is NOT found in Fulani from Niger and Nigeria, but is found in the Mandenka from Senegal.

{African linguistic classifications are still being studied, partly because it now appears that earlier classifications were somehow inaccurate. }

Thought Writes:

Can you show me a linguistic analysis that classifies Fula in the Afro-Asiatic phylum?

{But in terms of phenotype, it is clear that the Fulbe/fulani have more in common with ancient and modern Egyptian (fellahin) than any other ethnic group in West Africa.}

Sight Writes:

That would depend on what part of AE one was studying and during which time period. Africans with elongated and broad features were present in AE, although the elongated type dominated.

{Fulbe have typically the modern Upper Egyptian look.}

Sight Writes:

What about Wolof and/or Tuareg?

posted 17 November 2004 03:10 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
{What genetic data are you referring to specifically?}

Thought Writes:

M1 is the most common mtDNA Haplotype in the Nile Valley and East Africa. E3b is the most common Y-Chromosome Haplotype in the Nile Valley and East Africa.

In Rosa et al. 2004 the Fulani sample from the Republic of Guine Bissau LACK the M1 marker. On the other hand, in the same study the M1 marker is found in the Balanta, Bijago and Beafada ethnic groups.

In Cruciani et al 2004 the E3b marker is NOT found in Fulani from Niger and Nigeria, but is found in the Mandenka from Senegal.

---

So in essence, are you saying that Mandinkas resemble Nile Valley/East African peoples than Fulanis?

Sorry, I don't buy this. Does it not surprise you that there are several so-called genetic studies on DNA markers of Nile Valley peoples that have been proffered on this issue, all with different conclusions? That includes some studies that indicate that the ancient Egyptians were predominantly caucasoid and far-removed from sub-Saharan Africans.

The typical ancient Egyptian approximates the coastal East African type, as the reconstructed faces of the King Tut and Nefertiti mummy demonstrate. Fulani/fulbe resemble East Africans than other people in West Africa. That's why they are regarded as "hamitic" people, just like Bejas, Afars, etc.

A better approach is to observe the physical characteristics of a people and compare them to others for similarities or differences. This was the approach used to establish the Africanness of the ancient Egyptians. There is no need to adduce "genetic" evidence that cannot be substantiated.

posted 17 November 2004 11:51 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horemheb:
Dada...that stuff is pure garbage. You can do better.

---

posted 17 November 2004 12:12 PM            

(1) There are numerous bird-man and sphinx-type sculptures found amongst the Nok terracottas, but the ones that have been dated are much later (e.g. AD50 and AD250) than the earliest human sculptures (i.e. 1000BC - 500 BC). This has always puzzled me.

Most of these are in private collection but the Bernard de Grunne book has a couple of nice pictures.

(2) What do you guys make of the "tribal" mask-wearing paintings of Tassili. For example the masked dancer from Inaouanrhat as featured in the Frank Willett book "African Art"

(3) Have you guys seen the featureless/faceless (no mouth, nose or eyes!!!)paintings of Tassili. Willett's book contains a picture of one found at Tin Teferiest. Curiously featureless stone sculptures of a similar type are found throughout the Yorubaland but they are much later in date.

posted 17 November 2004 01:03 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by kembu:
So in essence, are you saying that Mandinkas resemble Nile Valley/East African peoples than Fulanis?

---

I think you'll find that Fulanis come in many different types, it tends to depend on their country of origin.

posted 17 November 2004 02:53 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by kembu:
So in essence, are you saying that Mandinkas resemble Nile Valley/East African peoples than Fulanis?

Sorry, I don't buy this. Does it not surprise you that there are several so-called genetic studies on DNA markers of Nile Valley peoples that have been proffered on this issue, all with different conclusions? That includes some studies that indicate that the ancient Egyptians were predominantly caucasoid and far-removed from sub-Saharan Africans.

The typical ancient Egyptian approximates the coastal East African type, as the reconstructed faces of the King Tut and Nefertiti mummy demonstrate. Fulani/fulbe resemble East Africans than other people in West Africa. That's why they are regarded as "hamitic" people, just like Bejas, Afars, etc.

A better approach is to observe the physical characteristics of a people and compare them to others for similarities or differences. This was the approach used to establish the Africanness of the ancient Egyptians. There is no need to adduce "genetic" evidence that cannot be substantiated.

Culturally, there is not a huge variation among African peoples, both ancient and modern. So you will definitely find overlaps among several peoples, some as a coincidence, others, as a result of diffusion perhaps. But much work needs to be done in African anthropology before we can come to certain conclusions.

---

Thought Writes:

posted 18 November 2004 05:57 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by fatai:

I think you'll find that Fulanis come in many different types, it tends to depend on their country of origin.

The pictures in the links below provide an interesting cross section of Nigerian Fulanis:
http://www.motherlandnigeria.com/pictures/fulani_dancers.jpg
http://www.motherlandnigeria.com/pictures/fulani_and_daughter.jpg
http://www.motherlandnigeria.com/pictures/nomad_fulani_girl.jpg

---

True. But most Nigerian Fulanis tend to have Hausa admixture even though culturally they identify as Fulani. Others prefer to be called Hausa-Fulani.