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Author Topic:   Foreigners in Egypt and Nubia from Dyanstic to modern times
ausar
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posted 12 December 2004 04:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ausar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
During the Middle Kingdom foreigners are first found:

93.0909
LUFT, Ulrich, Asiatics in Illahun: A preliminary report, in: Atti VI Congresso. II, 291-297.

In the M.K. Asiatics of unknown origin were present in Egypt in considerable number. They were designated aAm, "Asiatic." The toponym RTnw is also known; the combination of aAmw of RTnw is

attested. Some names look Egyptian, but are foreign. A safe indication is the addition aAm before the name.

In Illahun Asiatics are mentioned in registers and letters. The names of the Asiatics are Egyptian for the

most part. Asiatic names appear as parent's names or nicknames. Some nicknames seem to be Egyptian. The

presence of Hurrian names in the Egyptian during the 19th century B.C. can be assumed. In P. Berol 10002 a

large part of the singers (Smaw) is Asiatic, but also titles and activities are attested. It seems that the

Asiatics lived under the same circumstances as the Egyptians. Pap. Berol 10004, known as a document

concerning the sale of slaves, needs further study. On the basis of the Illahun evidence, Asiatics were

appreciated as workers inside and outside of Egypt in the later XIIth Dynasty.

Wall pantings in the tomb of Khnumhotep at Beni hassan depict the
vist of a bedouin Cheiftain named Abisha,while numerous Egyptians
statuettes and scarabs have been found at Near Eastern
sites,reaffriming Asiatic links.
Page 163

Oxford History of Ancient Egypt

Ian Shaw

During the New Kingdom we find Asiatics of Mitanni origin living even in villages of Deir El Medina in modern Luxor:

94.1133

WARD, William A., Foreigners Living in the

Village, in: Pharaoh's Workers, 61-85 and

163-174.


Having pointed out the problem of identifying

foreign personal names in Egyptian texts in

general, the author turns to the Deir

el-Medina material, where he has identified 22

masculine and 10 feminine names of

West-Asiatic origin, most Semitic, but also

Hurrian and Hittite. Their bearers lived

almost all in the village; the women were

mostly married to workmen, but the social

status of the men is harder to determine.

Appendix A lists 22 foreign names at Deir

el-Medina published earlier by him (in "Essays

in Ancient Civilization ... H.J. Kantor,"

Chicago 1989, 255-299) and 13 new ones from

the Deir el-Medina texts, among which the

extensively discussed knr (kl) and kr.

Appendix B concentrates on the occurrences of

the name knr (kl) at Deir el-Medina (nos.

1-11) and outside during the N.K. (12-28), and

in the T.I.P. (29-30). Appendix C lists 10

occurrences of the name kr(i/y).

Also during the New Kingdom was infiltraition of Sea People that were either captured during battles or came to Egypt as mercenaries:

The greatest threat to Egypt during the

Ramesside Period was the so-called '' Peoples

of the Sea,'' a confederation of peoples from

the Aegean or Western Anatolia,who attacked

northeast Africa and the eastern

Mediterranean. From early in the reign of

Merneptah,the ships of these people,known more

specifically as the Sherdan[perhaps from Ionia

and Sardinia], Shekelesh,and Peleset,attacked

the western and eastern Mediterranean

approaches of Egypt while others attempted to

colonize via land routes.Much of the

thirty-one year reign of Ramesses II was

devoted to thwarting their attacks,and records

of great sea battles are carved on the north

side of the king's temple at Medinet Abu. The

''People of the Sea'' ultimatley changed the

entire balance of power in the Near

East,sweeping away the Hittites and setting

the stage for the Assyria to step into the

void as the new dominant power in the Near

East.

page 48

Egypt and the Egyptians

by Douglas J. Brewer and Emily Teeter

Cambridge University Press

Due/Published June 1999, 236 pages, paper

ISBN 0521449847


Libyans also came as captives or mercenaries and were settled around the modern Delta area:


Glazed from the decorative scheme used probabaly in the throne room
of the palace of King Rameses III at Tell el-Yahudiya. It shows a
bound Libyan captive.

page 30


Ancient Egypt

The Land and Legacy
T.G.H. James

copyright @ 1988

First Unversity of Texas Press Paperback Printing,1990


After the Ramesside dyansty we know that Libyans ruled all over Egypt except southern Upper Egypt which remained independent.

After the 25th dyansty you have interludes from Assyrians,and finally an independent dyansty at Sais.

During the 26th dyansty many Saite pharaohs imported Carian and Greek mercenaries and settled them in various parts of Egypt.

But more importantly he was able to idenity at Nebeira the site of
the ancient city of Naucratis ,which in the reign of Amasis in the
Twenty-six Dyansty[570-526 B.C.] had been granted a monopoly of Greek
trading in Egypt.

page 33

Ancient Egypt

The Land and Legacy
T.G.H. James

copyright @ 1988

First Unversity of Texas Press Paperback Printing,1990

Later during Persian occupation there were settlements of Jewish mercenaries in parts of modern day Aswan:

>"Jewish Life in Ancient Egypt: A Family Archive from the Nile Valley"
>Edward Bleiberg, PhD, Brooklyn Museum of Art
>Thursday, April 29, 2004, 6:30pm
>Mary Gates Hall, Room 389, University of Washington campus
>Admission: FREE.
>
>About the Presentation
>
>This presentation focuses on the private lives of the Jewish temple
official Ananiah, son of Azariah, and his Egyptian wife, Tamut, who
both lived on Elephantine Island in the late 5th century BCE during
Persian rule. Included in the discussion are the arrival of Jews in
Egypt after the destruction of Solomons Temple and the type of
Judaism they practiced.
>Ananiah and Tamuts family life is discussed from their marriage in
447 BCE to the final payment on their daughters bride gift in 402
BCE. In-between these events we learn about marriage, labor
conditions, real estate, and burial in a multi-cultural community of
Egyptians, Jews and Persians.
>
>About the Speaker
>
>Edward Bleiberg is Associate Curator in the Department of Egyptian,
Classical and Ancient Middle Eastern Art at the Brooklyn Museum of
Art. He earned his PhD from the University of Toronto in Egyptology.
He is organizing the tour for the exhibition Jewish Life in Ancient
Egypt and is the author of The Official Gift in Ancient Egypt,
Ancient Egypt 2615-332 BCE, and the exhibition catalog Jewish Life in
Ancient Egypt.
>
>Cosponsors
>The Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilization, the Jewish
Studies Program, the Comparative Religion Program, and the Burke
Museum of Natural History and Culture.
>
>
>For further information contact:
>
>Scott Noegel
>Dept. Near Eastern Languages & Civilizations
>University of Washington
>Box 353120
>Seattle, WA 98195
>
>Office: 206-543-3606
>Dept: 206-543-6033
>FAX: 206-685-7936
>http://faculty.washington.edu/snoegel/
===================================================


March 15, 2002, Friday
LEISURE/WEEKEND DESK
ART REVIEW; Jews at Peace in Egypt, a Tale Told on Papyrus
By GRACE GLUECK
Led by Moses, the Jews fled en masse from Egypt around 1250 B.C., after centuries of bondage. So says the Bible's book of Exodus. But later books -- II Kings and Jeremiah -- report that 800 years later, during the fifth century B.C., Jews were once again living and worshiping there.


The later biblical account was confirmed by the 1893 discovery of hundreds of papyrus scrolls from a settlement on Elephantine Island in the Nile. Eight were given to the Brooklyn Museum of Art in 1947 by Theodora Wilbour, daughter of Charles Edwin Wilbour, a pioneering American Egyptologist. Ms. Wilbour found them in a trunk after her father's death, but they were not opened and studied until 1953.

Now, thanks to Edward Bleiberg, associate curator of the museum's famed collection of Egyptian and other ancient art, the scrolls are the focus of a small show, ''Jewish Life in Ancient Egypt: A Family Archive From the Nile Valley.'' They tell, over a period of time, the story of Ananiah, a Jewish temple official, and his wife, Tamut, a slave of Meshullam, a military man and fellow Jew. All of them lived on Elephan tine, apparently in harmony with their Egyptian, Greek and Persian neighbors.

The scrolls, written in Aramaic, the daily language of Egyptian Jews and Persians, include a marriage contract, a deed of release from slavery, real estate transactions and a loan agreement, but no other objects associated with the family exist.

Not too visually engaging by themselves, the scrolls have been bolstered by nearly 40 works of ancient Egyptian and Persian art -- from the museum's own collection -- that relate to the life of the period. Further embellishments include a lovely 1870 view of the island with Roman structures by the well-known British photographer Antonio Beato, a lush painting of it done around 1893 by the American Edwin Blashfield (son-in-law of Charles Wilbour) and a padded recent video presentation.

Though thin, the show is of interest not only because its documents confirm the return of Jews to Egypt but also because it points up the good relationships among the various ethnic groups who inhabited the small island. Under the religiously tolerant Persians who ruled Egypt at the time, members of these groups were serving on Elephantine as mercenary forces guarding the country's southern frontier.

Not Ananiah, the scrolls' original owner, however. For 47 years (from 449 to 402 B.C.) he was a member of the Jewish priesthood attached to the Temple of Yahou (Jehovah), where animal sacrifices took place. And what were Jews doing back in Egypt? They were descendants of those who had fled from the Babylonians, who had conquered Jerusalem in 586 B.C. and consigned the Jewish elite to exile in Babylonia. Those who made it to Egypt were the soldiers and common people, who practiced a more rudimentary form of Judaism that still involved the worship of more than one god.

Ananiah first comes to notice in a marriage document dated Aug. 9, 449 by the Aramaic calendar, that legalized his union with Tamut, an Egyptian woman whose father had sold her to Meshullam, a not uncommon practice in payment of debts. By the time they got around to wedlock, the couple already had a 6-year-old son, not an unusual circumstance for that time and place. The contract freed their son, Palti, from slavery, but not Tamut.

Written by Aramaic scribes in proper legalese, all the contracts were signed by witnesses, who seemed to have some literacy. Ananiah's wedding contract provided a small dowry from Tamut, including a wool garment worth seven shekels, a mirror, a pair of sandals and six handfuls of castor oil. This civilized document also declared that if Ananiah wanted a divorce, he had to pay Tamut, or vice versa, and that on the death of one, the other inherited their joint property.
Another important scroll, 427 B.C. and signed by Meshullam, releases Tamut and the couple's daughter, Yehoishema, from their bondage to him. ''You are freed to God,'' says the declaration, on the condition that Tamut and her daughter look to the welfare of Meshullam and his son Zakkur for life.

In 437 B.C., 12 years after his marriage, Ananiah bought a house from Bagazust, a Persian soldier, and his wife. The rather decrepit property was in a town called Khnum, named for an Egyptian god, right across the street from the temple. The sale is recorded in a third papyrus scroll, assuring clear title to the house, which is described as having a court, standing walls and windows, but no beams.

Four more scrolls are concerned with gifts of various parts of the house to Tamut and Yehoishema by Ananiah, and then the sale of the house, in 402 B.C., to Yehoishema's husband, also named Ananiah. (By this time the house had beams and two doors.)
The last of the scrolls, dated 402 B.C., is a receipt for the borrowing of two months' rations of grain by the son-in-law -- at no interest, but with a penalty for failure to repay on time -- from Pakhnum, an Aramaean. Despite the expulsion of the Persians two years earlier, good business relations apparently continued between Jews and other ethnic groups.

Although the papyri, even enlarged, are not much to look at, there are some fine 3-D objects from the museum's vast collection of ancient art. Many of them predate or postdate the period covered here, although a wonderful small but sharply delineated limestone fragment from Persepolis showing a Persian soldier, with stylized hair and beard, comes from Ananiah's time.
So does a headless but still impressive stone statue of Ptahhotep, an Egyptian treasury official, dressed in Persian costume with a Persian bracelet but an Egyptian chest ornament. The sculpture, about one-quarter life size and probably from Memphis, illustrates the accommodating mix of Persian and Egyptian costumes during the period of Egypt's rule by Persian kings.

Not to be overlooked is a quirky sarcophagus lid (664-332 B.C.) topped by an expressive relief face said to be from a Jewish cemetery at Tura, Egypt.
A wooden palette, dating from 404 to 333 B.C., hollowed to hold reed pens and shaped to contain cakes of ink, suggests the typical implement used by the scribes who prepared Ananiah's papyri. And some elegant bowls and a jar of silver and gilded bronze illustrate vessels used in the period, perhaps for offerings to gods.

Several very tiny but finely made objects include an amulet of a kneeling ram (664-332 B.C.) worn for protection by Egyptians (but not Jews), and a ram-headed aegis of about the same period, an iconic protective symbol carried by Egyptian priests. (Rams were sacrificed by Jews as well as Egyptians.) A miniature bronze bull (664-425 B.C.)representing the Egyptian god Apis also dates from the show's period. Slightly earlier (664-525 B.C.) is a statuette of the Egyptian goddess Mut, protector of pregnancy and birth, from whose name Tamut derives.
These and other objects, like an earlier statue (680-650 B.C.) of an Egyptian worshipper, Padimahes, made from a monolithic granite block and depicting him watching a divine procession with his face tilted upward, add depth to the show and make it more of a visual event. But the soul of it is Ananiah's papyri.

''Jewish Life in Ancient Egypt: A Family Archive From the Nile Valley'' remains at the Brooklyn Museum of Art, 200 Eastern Parkway, at Prospect Park, (718) 638-5000, through May 12.
Published: 03 - 15 - 2002 , Late Edition - Final , Section E , Column 1 , Page 41 http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F03E2D81039F936A25750C0A9649C8B63

After the Persian occupation was a short rule of indigenous pharaohs until the 32nd when Necho II fled Egypt.

When Alexzander the Great invaded Egypt it was under Persian occupation. Egyptians welcome Alexzander against the Persians. Alexzander entrusted Egypt to one of his generals to rule Egypt. The general's name was Ptolomey.

Ptolomey was corinated a pharaoh. Still the

indigenous Egyptians were despised and looked

down upon by the indigenous Ptolomies. Still

marriages between Ptoloemiac and native

Egyptians did exist amungst the elite and

commoners. Only in two regions where Greeks

went back to mainland Greece was such marriage

banned. This means that regions like Naucratis and Alexzandria would not permit marriage between Egyptians and Greek. Greeks were not the only foreigners,and Syrians were settled in assorted regions across Egypt including parts of Middle Egypt like Fayyyum,Minya,and Beni Suef. These mercenaries intermarried with the local population.

See the following:

Minshah (Ptolemais)

In Graeco-Roman times the city of Ptolemais, in Middle Egypt, was the
second or third most important city in Egypt. The remain of Ptolemais
are now buried under the modern town of Minshah, but even on the
modern rubbish dump remains of the ancient city can be found, like
this pillar fragment: Not only on the rubbish dump, but
everywhere in Minshah remnants of its former glory can be seen poking
through the surface, as is true for many places in Egypt. Here two
different types of grinding-stones can be seen laying in one of the
squares of the town with a decorated pillar capital lurking in the
background:


Objective of visit: To evaluate the possibilities for
archaeological fieldwork in Minshah (Ptolemais).
Date of visit: February 2002.
Fellow visitors: Willeke Wendrich.
Results: A concise report and photo-CD.
Approximate position and date of the site: Minshah is
located in Middle Egypt, on the west bank of the Nile about 15 km.
south of Sohag and 120 km. north of Luxor. The remains of Ptolemais,
once one of the most important cities in Egypt, are covered
completely by this modern village. Literary sources indicate that the
ancient city must date to at least the Ptolemaic period (3rd century
BC - 1st century AD), but it was probably also active before and
after that.
Short description of the site: Minshah is a small town with
narrow, unpaved streets. Most older buildings are nicely designed and
well maintained and the streets are kept very clean. The higher,
central parts of the town (the kom or tell) are littered with ancient
worked stones, often moved to the corners of buildings to protect
them from the traffic in the street. In other places ancient remains
can still be seen in situ.
Additional remarks: This work would not have been
possible without the indirect support of the Berenike Project http://www.archbase.com/berenike/index.html and the help of several
individuals, among which Joe Manning.
HOME http://www.barnard.nl/fotos.html http://www.barnard.nl/egypt/index.html http://www.barnard.nl/egypt/index.html http://www.barnard.nl/fotos.html http://www.barnard.nl/fotos.html BACK http://www.barnard.nl/egypt/index.html http://www.barnard.nl/egypt/minshah.htm


In addition to roman high officals,occupying the important
administrative posts in Alexzandria and in the larger towns,and to
more numerous mirrior functionannes,one must also distinguish from
the indigenous populations the Greeks,established in Egypt before the
Ptolomies,and the war veterns. often of diverse origins to whom lands
had been granted . Some of these latter,at Faiyum or Antione,may have
been Romans;others ---as for example ;at Ahnas El medinehin Upper
Egypt--originally came from Palmyra. All brought with them their own
customs ,and doubtless their own relgions,which can be
idenitfied ,even when became intergrated with the relgions of the
country,as is evident at Ahnas El Medineh;

1. E. Drioton 'Art syrien et art copte;B.S.A.C. III 1937 ,pp 29-40

page 72
Du Bourguet, Pierre M., The Art of the Copts. Art of the World
series, New York, Crown Publishers, 1971.

There is another good reason for pausing at Kom Aushim;it is the site

of one of the many towns founded in the Faiyum province during the

Ptolemaic Period. here at Karanis it is still possible to walk along

streets,to step into houses,to saunter in squares,as one can never do

in the Nile valley itself. For this was a town which fell into disuse


and was abandoned in the later Roman Period,to be revealed in modern

times by excavations of the Unversity of Michigan.Like its

foundation here and elsewhere in Egypt,Karanis was essentially a

Greek-speaking towns. On its hieght at Kom Aushim,Karanis lies

approximatley at sea-leavel,but when it was founded,like man of its

fellow,it lay on the edge of the lake ,which at that time was about

six feet below sea-level. it


page 61


Ancient Egypt

The Land and Legacy
T.G.H. James

copyright @ 1988

First Unversity of Texas Press Paperback Printing,1990


A substantial Greek-speaking community exised in Men-nefer,and a

number of mummies incorporating potraits and of portraits taken

from mummies have been found at Saqqara;they probably present us with

the closest we may ever get to the likeness of Memphites.

page

58

Ancient Egypt

The Land and Legacy
T.G.H. James

copyright @ 1988

First Unversity of Texas Press Paperback Printing,1990

Although at the end of the Dyanstic period and in Graeco-Roman times

Saqarra was a bustling place throughout the year with constant

pilgrimages to many shrines ,were troubled souls sought comfort from

the mysteries and incubation treatments available and processions and

very occasionally an Apis funeral as special entertainment,the

district was also probably rather ran down suffering from the

excessive usage of almost three thousand years. To some extent its

bustle its bustle reflected the busy life of the city of Men-

nefer,which remained the most important centre of commerce and

administration untill it was supersededby Alexzandria. It was

huge,amorphus,rambling place,with large ''ghettoes'' made over for

foregin communities---for Greeks,for Jews,for Carians,for

Phonecians.Apart from itws temples it probabaly had few imposing

buildings,and was mostly made up of warren-like districts of narrow

streets and three-storey houses where collapse and rebuilding went

on continuously:unsanitary,smelly,dusty or muddy according to the

season,but full of life and interest.

page 46


Ancient Egypt

The Land and Legacy
T.G.H. James

copyright @ 1988

First Unversity of Texas Press Paperback Printing,1990

5.0105
CLARYSSE, W., Greeks in Ptolemaic Thebes, in: Hundred-Gated Thebes, 1-19. (fig., tables).
On the basis of a database (whose building-up is still in progress) which registers all Greeks attested in Ptolemaic documents from Thebes the author concludes that the Greek-speaking or Greek-named section of the population belonged to the upper layers of society. This small elite was so narrow that name identity (except for the most common) is often indicative of family relationship or even personal identity. They had close links with the native upper class. From the 3rd century B.C. onwards Egyptian scribes took up learning and writing Greek, marrying off their children to immigrants, so that in the late Ptolemaic Period the Greek-speaking upper class was ethnically thoroughly mixed with native families. Culturally they could act two ways: as Greeks in the administration, as Egyptians in the temple and in the family.

Under Roman rule more foreigners were brought into Egypt leaving Roman garrisons across Lower and Middle Egypt. During this time Fellahin Egyptians were barred acess to Alexzandria unless they were serving the Romans.


See the following:


From the cemetary at Mallawi [near Beni Suef] which was once the
location of a Roman garrison.
Page 45

Rosalie David Handbook to Life in Ancient Egypt

One old man with long hair and a white beard ,who had been a member
of the local community of foreign Christains which had established
itself near the temple of Philae,is the oldest example and one of the
best illustrations of a case of gout;enormous whitish concretions of
urate of lime had gathered on his feet,especially round his big toe
and also at the ankle ,while chalky ,masses could still be seen
deforming his knee-caps and ankles.

page 43


Ange-Pierre Leca: The Egyptian Way of Death: Mummies and the Cult of
the Immortal
Garden City, NY: Doubleday & Company, 1981. Reveals the beliefs,
techniques and rituals comprising the elaborate process of
mummification. 292 pages

In Later times right before the Arab invasion of Egypt there were loads of Syrians,Greeks,and other groups in Lower Egypt.


During the Arab rule in Egypt under the Abbasid and Umayyad brought Arab groups into Egypt and even distributed them across Egypt. Eventually, these Arab troops were replaced with Turks and the remaining Arabs either stayed in parts of Middle Egypt or went to Northern Africa and Sudan. The bedouin population in modern Sudan,exlucuding the Rashaida, all claim desent from bedouin groups driven from parts of Upper Egypt.


See the following:

Arab colonization began with the conquest ,and was encouraged by the
Ummayyad Caliphs,notably by Hisham[reigned 724-43],who in 727
authorized the planned migration and settlement of several thousand
Arabs of the Yemenite tribe of Qays in the Nile Valley. During the
eight century and ninth century large numbers of Arab
tribesmen,mainly of Yemenite origin,migrate to Egypt,where many of
them settled on land.
page 457


Harris, J R, ed. (1971) The legacy of Egypt. Oxford

The Arab conquest of Egypt in 640-42,was cocrrently ,the first major bedouin migrations to the Nile Valley. The conquering army was made up very largely of tribemen,apparentenly drawn indiscrimatley from most of the tribesmen of the Arabian Peninsula.. By 642,they are said to have numbered nearly 20,000[15]. This is the figure usually given as the size of the Moselem army which unsucessully invaded Nubia in 642[Chapter 14] [16]. How many of these immigrants settled down in Egypt after the conquest is impossible to say,but probabaly the majority did so.

During the next twqo centuries their numbers sweled through immigration. According to MacMichael,'The cheif occasions of the immigration were the arivals of the new govenors : each one came escorted by an aqrmy of anything up to 20,000 men,many of whom never returned to Syria or Arabia. A portion of the hordes were Persian,Turkish and other tribes, but the majority here Arabs and would normally be members of the govenor's own tribe[17]. In addition to these regular increments numbers of the Qays Alan tribe were induced to settle Lower Egypt as a counter weight to the influcence of the creasingly rebellious Copts. For from reinforcing the security of the control goverment,however,the tribesmen became a pereenial of rebellion.[18]

In the beginning most of the Arabs in Egypt did not go to join the nomad groups alkready resident in the Red Sea Hills and the Western Oases,for unlike bedouins they were not obliged to support themselves entirely or even primarily by pastorial activties They were installed as irregular garrison forces and the provinces of Lower and Middle Egypt,as other Arab groups were similarily installed in the conquest of Iraq and Syria. this enabled them to graze such animals as they had along the margins and over harvested fields of the Nile Valley,with of without the consent of the Fellaheen. More importdantly,to exact tribute from the Fellaheen themselkves.


The Arabs in Egypt,like many other nomad groups before and since,lived more as parasites than as pastoralists

. In order to mainstain their millitary effectiveness and mobility ,the Arabs in Egypt were forbidden to own land or engage in cultivation .[19] This short sighted policy was ro prove diastrous for civil order. The Arabs were not cut out by training or tradition for the military role which was assigned them once the wars or conquest were over; they were too unruly to serve as provincial garrisons and too undependable to serve as house hold troop

. At the same time the prohibition against holding land precluded their settling down to a useful life within the conquered provinces,and pratically condemed them to return to the predatory times,even had they wished to otherwise

. After the Abbsaid revolution of 750[20] the Arabs found their military role increasingly pre-empted by slave armies of Persian and Turkish origin. The long series of Arab revolts which further alienated the tribes from goverment which they had helped to create. Finally in A.D. 834 ,'Caliph al-Mutasin inaugerated his rule by dispatching an order to his governor of Egypt to strike off the names of all Arabs from the register of pensions and stoip paying their salaries. This was indeed a turning point in the history of Arabs in Egypt . In short,their service as fighters was no longer needed:they were replaced by Turkish military slaves ..........[21] The disaplecement of Arabs reached its culmination in 868 when one of the Turkish govenors of Egypt,Ibn Tulan,renouched his allegiances to the Caliph and founded the first Egypt's Turkish dyansties.

Not suprisngly,many of the discontended and dispossed Arabs began drifting awayt from the Nile Valley and back to nomadic life of earlier times. Some followed the Nile to the relatively freer region of Upper Egypt;others moved to Northern Africa,incidentially over running and Arabizing many of the Berber tribes;still others joined Beja in the eastern hills and along the Red Sea coast.

At the beginning of the ninth century most of the Beja who dwelt in the Red Sea Hills were still pagans,although, a few had adpted a nominal Christianityand others,particulary in the coastl districts,may already have embraced Islam[23]. The tribe soon continued to raid Upper Egypt when opportunity presented itself,and in 831 a punative campaign was under taken against them by Caliph al-Mutasim. According to Yusuf Hassan,this was the decisive event in opening up the Red Sea Hills to Arab settlement

The Beja were defeated and were forced to sign a capitulation recognicing the caliph as their suzerain and paying an annual tribute. The agreement contained many of the same stipulation as did the baqt treaty with the Nubians,[25],but it was a unilateral capitulation which guaranteed nothing to the Beja in return for their submission. The tribesmen were forbidden to enter the village and towns of Egypt,but there was no provision,as in the case with Nubians,against the Egyptians or Arabs to entering and settling the country of the Beja. According to Hassan,'By agreeing to pay tribute the beja were treated as a conquered people. When Kannun[the principal Beja Cheif] recognized the Abbasaid overlordship and became a vassal,the victorious Arabs found an opportunity to extend their own influce ,at least on paper,as far south as Badi. Arab gains were thus immence and the treaty acted as a spearhead which opened up the country to Arab influce . Arabs were free to move about the area or to settle ;their commercial interests,religious freedom,and personal safety were all safeguarded by their agreement[26] MacMichael adds that'The cheif result to Egypt was a cessation ofg the raids on her southern broder,and to the beja the acquisition of all tribal control by an Arab aristocracy.''[27]

551-554

W.Y. Adams

Nubia Corridor to Africa

The Tulunid dyansty in Egypt established independence from the Abbasaid Caliph. The rulers of this dyansty were Turkish in origin.


Later the Fatimid caliph coming from Tunisa established modern day Cairo. Many foreign mercenaries during this time were brought in that included Aremnian,Greek,Sudanese[Nubian],Turkish,and also plenty of European slaves.


See the following:

Al-Qahira
Literally meaning "the Victorious" , al-Qahira was Egypt's fourth

Islamic capital after al-Fustat, al-Askar and al-Qataii. Al-Qahira

is today called Cairo among English speakers. The fortified princely

city built by the Fatimids in 969 A.D. and completed in 971 A.D. was

divided in four quarters by the Fatimid army, and encompassing

communities of Greeks, ethnic Europeans, Armenians, Berbers, Sudanese

and Turks. The core of the city Bayn al-Qasrayn ("Between the Two

Palaces") was a square separating the Eastern and Western palace that

was halfway along its main street (Now Sharia al-Muizz - Walk 1) that

stretched from Bab al-Futuh North to Bab Zuwayla South.
http://www.aucegypt.edu/walking_tours/cairo/glossary/glossary.html

Also brought during the Fatimid times were Berber troops from Morocco.

Meanwhile in Upper Egypt, around the 1200's came a sufi mystic Abul'Hagag that converted the local population in this region to sufism. Of course ancient traditions did not die,for the local mouled in this area still has traces of the old religion.

In Later periods Mamelukes begin to take over in Egypt. The Mamelukes were a combination of Kipak Turks and Circussian[literally people from the caucaos mountains]. Many of these people were blonde haired and blue eyed people. Many prominent families in Egypt,Jordan,and Palestine trace their ancestry to these people.


See the following:


Bahri Mamluks
A succession of strong Mamluk sultans, originally Mamluk slaves
based on barracks in Rhoda Island and hence named Bahri (Arabic for
river), who took over control of Egypt and Syria from 1250 to 1382
A.D. Their reign was characterized by relative stability and
prosperity on the internal arena and powerful military control on
the external level defeating enemy threats. http://www.aucegypt.edu/walking_tours/cairo/glossary/glossary.html

Burgi Mamluks (Circassian)
The turbulent Circassian Mamluk regime that took over the Bahri
Mamluks from 1382 to 1517 A.D. was also known as Burgi Mamluk since
they were based in the towers (Burg) of the Citadel. The reign was
characterized by epidemic outbreaks, heavy taxation to make up for
the decline in revenues that followed the discovery of a new trade
route to India.



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Thought2
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posted 12 December 2004 04:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thought2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thought Writes:

So it is safe to say that Egyptians have CHANGED over time, with more immigration coming from Eurasia.

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ausar
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posted 12 December 2004 06:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ausar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Thought Writes:
So it is safe to say that Egyptians have CHANGED over time, with more immigration coming from Eurasia.

Phenotypically I would say that Lower and parts of Middle Egypt did change. However,I emphasis that this migration did not have a great cultural impact upon the population. Rural Fellahin and sai'idi still pratice many customs that their ancient forefathers praticed. As long as people understand that this despite whatever phenotypical change might have arisen from migrations.


I also think more studies should be done on the Middle and Upper Egyptian population,and the lower classes in Cairo often called balady. As well as the Nubians and Southern Sudanese in Sudan.


Understand also that the modern Middle and Upper Egyptian fellahin are the cloest one is going to get to the ancient phenotype in modern day Egypt. People should not automatically assume the entire modern Egyptian population are simply Arabs.



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ausar
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posted 12 December 2004 07:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ausar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

More foreigners in Egypt:


The mile-wide necropolis falls mostly within the present village of
Qurna,inhabited by the desendants of Horobat warrior who have
arrived to settle there in the thirteenth century as tomb robbers,an
occupation many still follow.

page XXIII

Shahhat,an Egyptian by Richard Critchfield


James Wellard, in _Lost Worlds of Africa_ believes that "millions" of
European slaves were brought into N. Egyptian and other N. African
ports during the Muslim period. Add to this the migrations of Greeks,
Latins, Vandals, etc., and you get a very mixed lot

Turkish occupation of Egypt:


Ottomans
Western Asian tribes of Turkomen who besieged Costantinople and
established themselves as a powerful empire in present day Turkey
during the 15th century. The Ottoman Regime in Egypt went on from
1517 to 1800 A.D. Egypt, governed by a succession of appointed
viceroys who bore the title "Pasha", became a dependent province on
the greater Turkish empire in Istanbul.
http://www.aucegypt.edu/walking_tours/cairo/glossary/glossary.html

The people who live in Qurna are Saidi people ? that is to say, Upper Egyptians. From Beni Suef to Aswan, these people count themselves as different to those from the Delta. Egyptologists will tell you that these people are the direct descendants of the Ancient Egyptians, and this is of course so. In Qurna, however, many of the families trace their descent back to three brothers who came from Arabia ? not Bedouin but Arab. The branches of the family I know are the Horabati ? the ?Warriors? ? an extended network of cousins and cousins of cousins. My first friend in Egypt, Mohamed Hag Ali Hotabaya, is a Horabati. He is the best of friends ? quick to laugh, incredibly hospitable and generous, and (luckily for me) like so many of the villagers he speaks excellent English. On the other hand he is also quick to take offence and very obstinate. I remember he once confessed to me that he thought his brain was made of granite! His mother gave me first home-cooked food so many years ago and now I am watching Mohamed?s three young sons grow up. http://www.ancientegyptmagazine.com/changing03.htm


Turkish people also sent petty officers to govern parts of Aswan and Lower Nubia:

The region had been Christian for less than a century when the Arab armies invaded Egypt in 640 AD. On
year later those armies reached Aswan, where the Islamic tide was stemmed, and the first cataract remained
the southern frontier of Islamic Egypt and the northern frontier of Christian Nubia for several centuries.
During the medieval times Christian Nubia flourished . It was united under the king of Makuria and enjoyed
a ''Classical Christian'' period between 850 and 1100 AD. Arabs had been penetrating the area at various times for centuries,however, as
peaceful settlers, as traders, and as raiders. Some came as tribal remnants of defeated Caliphates, such as
the Abbassids. During the Fatimid Caliphte [969-1161 A.D.] there were many Arab trading expeditions along
the Nile, dealing particularly in slaves[Hassan 1969]. Many Arab tribal leaders married into leading Nubian
families and after that the Nubian kingship system was gradually converted from one tracing relatives
matrilineally to one tracing them patrilineally[from Ibn Khaldun cities in Hassan 1967,pg. 127]. Islamic
religious doctrine and legal pratices also became more and more widespread through the intermarrying
process.
The Muslim conversion of Nubia thus seems to have been gradual ,covering
several centuries ,though in the late phases military were defensive. Salah-al-Din [the famous Salah-al-Din]
defeated a Nubian army that invaded Egypt in 1171,for example, and at various times unruly Arab tribes
from Upper Egypt pillaged the area. Christianity held on in many parts of Nubia untill the fourteenth
century,however, when Islamic raiders coming from the south,in what is know the Sudan,looted churches
and finally completed the long process of conversion [Adams 1967,pg15] Christian Nubian pilgrims were
noted in the holy places of Palestine as late as the Fifteenth century[Hassan 1967 pg. 125],but by the end of
the fourteenth century the vast majority of the Nubians had become staunch Muslims, as they are today.
From 1517, when the Turkish Sultan Selim sent Hassan Koosy to take over governorship of the area, all
through the Ottoman period,and up to the present century,much of Egyptian Nubia was ruled or dominated
by desendants of this family of Turkish petty gentry. Members of the Koosy family married into local
lineages amd resulting aristocracy became known as the kushaf. The desendants of this ruling family still
regard themselves as superior class among the Nubians.
During the Turkish period conditions of relative anarchy alternated with those of local tyranny,and
military forces frequently swept devastatingly in the area.
pages 6,7,8
Nubian Ceremonial Life
Joseph Kennedy
Nubian Ceremonial Life Studies in Islamic Syncretism and Cultural Change
by John G. Kennedy
* SBN: 0520027485


Mamelukes also fled to parts of Upper Egypt and Nubia:

Dongola has long been famous for its 'white

suq' ,meaning that the merchants of the

town,although mostly Sudanese in origin ,

are remarkably lighter lighter skinned by

comparison with the residents of the

surrounding districts. They are infact

purely Egyptian in origin,and their

pressence at Dongola is said to date from

the time when the Mameluke rulers were

expelled froim Egypt and fled to Nubia at

the beginning of the 19th century


page 60

Nubia:Corridor to Africa

Willam Y. Adams

http://www.metimes.com/issue99-43/cultent/play_examines_the.htm


Play examines the 'Nubian Issue'


Hazem Azmy Special to the Middle East Times
Al Talia Theater's Hekayat Nas Al Nahr (Tales of the River Dwellers), is set to reopen on October 20 with a number of modifications to the script, and will probably be one of the first Egyptian plays to deal with the so-called "Nubian issue."


This issue concerns the sufferings of Nubians who were gradually forced out of their homeland in southern Egypt, and away from the Nile that defined their existence, when Nubia was flooded due to the construction and successive enlargements of the Aswan Dam. The final blow came with the construction and completion of the High Dam under Nasser's regime.
Originally designed to be an adaptation of the Nubian writer hajjaj Adul's play Nas Al Nahr (The River Dwellers), the production evolved into an interrogation of Adul's world as a whole, with dramaturge Hazem Shehata and director Nasser Abdel Moneim supplementing their adaptation of the play with characters and motifs from four other non-dramatic works by the same author.


Mokhtar, a thirty-something Cairene government employee, stands out as dramaturge Shehata's original addition to Adul's characters. Yet it would be wrong to read him, or any other character, as the production's "official voice."


About Adul's five works, Shehata writes in the English section of the program notes, "one can trace a certain ideological voice commenting on the Nubian issue. This voice we kept intact here but also included other, conflicting ideological voices. The rationale is to allow each voice its moment of realization without favoring any particular voice over the others."


As such, the production is neither an elegy for a lost Nubian paradise nor an apology for the officials who brought about the enlargement project. It is perhaps both, depending on which side of the fence one would like to come down on.


In July 1999, almost halfway through the rehearsal process, Shehata traveled to the US to attend a training program. During his stay, he was repeatedly bombarded with slogans of "Free Nubia" and offers from Nubian "activists" of the "free world" to help Nubia gain independence from its Egyptian "colonizers."


In the process of responding to such comments, the Egyptian director, naturally, had to speak about his latest work and the topic soon attracted attention.


"Negotiations are now underway to have the play translated into English so that it may be presented in the US, in cooperation with an American troupe, as an example of the Egyptian 'black theater,'" Abdel Moneim says.


Not unlike people of color in the US and elsewhere, Nubians have over the years been subjected to ideological manipulation and marginalization. This has resulted in the creation of a number of misconceptions, on both sides, that HekayatNas Al Nahr sets itself to challenge and deconstruct.
Quote:

For instance, Mokhtar takes it for granted that his friend Salama cannot be Nubian because of his fair complexion, only to discover that his intellectual friend belongs to a group called the Megraab, the local term for Nubians who are of Hungarian origin (during the Mameluke period many people from Eastern Europe, the Balkans and Cacasus were brought to Egypt, some of whom assimilated with the Egyptian population in the area known as Nubia). As the southern intellectual tells his Cairene friend, the people that are lumped together as Nubians are in fact a mixture of different ethnic groups (African, Arab, Hungarian, and Turkish) united, perhaps, by a common spirit.

In this way Mokhtar stops believing in one more stereotype about Nubia - and so do we.


But herein lies another challenge: "when dished out bluntly, the abundance of information included out of necessity in the play, may eventually reduce the drama to an unsolicited history lesson," says Shehata recalling the reservations of some critics who attended the production's trial run shortly before and during the Cairo International Festival for Experimental Theater.


"We were particularly conscious of this pitfall while working on the revised version of the play," Abdel Moneim added without giving details.


Before the Turkish invasion were also settlements of foreigners around Lower Nubia:

Collections Ptolemaic period

The rulers of the Ptolemies of Egypt and the Romans were
contemporaries with the Meroitic Period. In the third century BC, they
maintained friendly relations.
From the end of the 3rd century to the middle of the 2nd century BC,
the Ptolemies occupied a part of Nubia that they called
Dodekaschoinos, which was in the Northern part of Lower Nubia (from
Aswan to Maharaqa). In this area they built many important temples
such as Philae, Kalabsha, Dakka, etc.
In 30 BC, the Ptolemies were replaced by the Romans.
Mummy Koshtamna, Nubia
Statue of Roman Soldier , Philae, Nubia http://www.numibia.net/nubia/ptolemies.asp

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Thought2
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posted 12 December 2004 07:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thought2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
{However,I emphasis that this migration did not have a great cultural impact upon the population. Rural Fellahin and sai'idi still pratice many customs that their ancient forefathers praticed. }

Thought Writes:

I agree 100%!

{Understand also that the modern Middle and Upper Egyptian fellahin are the cloest one is going to get to the ancient phenotype in modern day Egypt}

Thought Writes:

In my opinion, the Beja and Nubians would be closer.

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neo*geo
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posted 12 December 2004 07:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for neo*geo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:

In my opinion, the Beja and Nubians would be closer.

The Beja are Nubians...

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Thought2
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posted 12 December 2004 07:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thought2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by neo*geo:
The Beja are Nubians...

Thought Writes:

The Nubians speak a Nilo-Saharan language. The Beja speak a Afro-Asiatic dialect, similar to the Ancient Egyptians.

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neo*geo
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posted 12 December 2004 07:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for neo*geo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

The Nubians speak a Nilo-Saharan language. The Beja speak a Afro-Asiatic dialect, similar to the Ancient Egyptians.


Whatever they speak today, the Beja are descended from the ancient Medjay Nubians who worked as policemen for the Egyptian Pharoahs.

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Thought2
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posted 12 December 2004 07:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thought2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by neo*geo:
Whatever they speak today, the Beja are descended from the ancient Medjay Nubians who worked as policemen for the Egyptian Pharoahs.

Thought Writes:

The Medjai PREDATE the Nubians (A Roman era term), by thousands of years.

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neo*geo
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posted 12 December 2004 08:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for neo*geo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

The Medjai PREDATE the Nubians (A Roman era term), by thousands of years.


Maybe so but they are one of the nomadic groups that inhabited and were part of ancient Nubia along with the Yam, and Ijret Nubians.

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Thought2
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posted 12 December 2004 08:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thought2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by neo*geo:
Maybe so but they are one of the nomadic groups that inhabited and were part of ancient Nubia along with the Yam, and Ijret Nubians.

Thought Writes:

They also occupied parts of the Eastern and Western deserts as far north as Luxor. They still occupy these regions. In the Eastern Desert they are known as the Abadaba.

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ausar
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posted 12 December 2004 08:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ausar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
In my opinion, the Beja and Nubians would be closer.

Well, I don't know how many Beja or Nubians you have meet. The Ababda people live in some parts of Aswan and Quena and many have mixed with Arabs. Matter of fact, the Ababa don't claim anything other than Arab. The Fellahin have done less mixing with Arabs due to their servile state. Most Fellahin mix with only themselves so the ancient ancestry is preserved better than with Nubians or Beja.


Most Luxor Egyptians and Aswani Egyptians are much darker than many Nubian people. Look at pictures of Mohammed Mounir the Nubian singer almost looks like Qadafi.


Go to Wadi Halfa and look at the Nubian population there and look at the people of the West Bank of Luxor and you might be very shocked by what you see.


What you don't understand also is that there is a caste system in Upper Egypt. The Bedouins[people who claim bedouin ancestry] are on the top, the Ashraf[people who claim desent from one of the phophet Mohammed's companions],the craftsmen[usually metalsmiths are gypsies],and the Fellahin or agritculral workers are on the bottom.


The Nubians past Aswan are by no means homogenous,for I have seen some that are very fair skinned. Arabs mixed more with Nubians and Beja than with Fellahin and Sai'idi.

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ausar
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posted 12 December 2004 08:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ausar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Thought Writes:

They also occupied parts of the Eastern and Western deserts as far north as Luxor. They still occupy these regions. In the Eastern Desert they are known as the Abadaba.


You mean as far north as Aswan. There are no Ababda from Luxor,but some are in Quena.


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Thought2
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posted 12 December 2004 08:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thought2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
Arabs mixed more with Nubians and Beja than with Fellahin and Sai'idi.

Thought Writes:

Ausar, what are the towns/cities that have the most pristine Fellahin/Sai'idi populations. Do you have photos of people from these towns? Thanks.

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posted 12 December 2004 08:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thought2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
You mean as far north as Aswan. There are no Ababda from Luxor,but some are in Quena.

http://home.worldonline.nl/~kosc/Ababda%20folder/ababda.html

The home of the Ababda is the vast expanse of the Eastern Desert between the Red Sea and the Nile Valley, a region covering the land from Kosseir in the north down to the southern borders of Egypt.

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rasol
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posted 12 December 2004 09:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rasol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

The Medjai PREDATE the Nubians (A Roman era term), by thousands of years.



quote:

Maybe so but they are one of the nomadic groups that inhabited and were part of ancient Nubia along with the Yam, and Ijret Nubians.

Well...the problem Neo is that you are just repeating the phrases you learned in the Matrix instead of critically examining them. The Medijay were not a part of any such thing as 'ancient Nubia'.

In fact they come into prominence as as warriors in the Kemetic army during the 18th dynasty. They fought against the Hyksos AND they fought against Kush. In fact it was more likely than not the Medijay who were responsible for capturing the Kushite prince and stringing him upside down....a story Eurocentrist love to tell to illustrate "Nubian/Egyptian" division, while obscurring the fact that the terminolgy they used to describe "Nubian" could apply to the Kush, the Medijay and for that matter the origins of the 18th dynasty itself.

Somehow you have to break out of the pattern of repeating what you read in [wst] txt. without critically examining it. Otherwise for all your interest in Kemet, you will end up a well intended propaganda victim.

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ausar
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posted 12 December 2004 09:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ausar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thought, I know many Ababda people that live in Edufu,Kom Ombo,and Esna. The G'afra people also live around this region,and I know most

of these people control parilment seats for

Upper Egypt. Ababda don't claim they are Beja

people,but actually claim they are Arabs.

Looking at many of them it's apparent they

have some Arab ancestry. In Nicolas S.

Hopkins book entitled Life Along the Nile he

shows pictures of Ababda living around

Esna,Edufu,and Aswan region. Look at them

for yourself.


Rasol, the medijay were known in earlier texts as Mazoi. These groups did come to Egypt prior to the 18th dyansty as mercenaries.

The Medijay originate from the Pan-Grave culture.

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Thought2
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posted 12 December 2004 09:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thought2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
Ababda don't claim they are Beja
people,but actually claim they are Arabs.
Looking at many of them it's apparent they
have some Arab ancestry.

Thought Writes:

What is your opinion of the "Bedouin" from Wadi Abu Mu'Awwad, pictured in Wilkinsons "Genesis of the Pharaohs"?

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neo*geo
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posted 12 December 2004 09:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for neo*geo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:

Well...the problem Neo is that you are just repeating the phrases you learned in the Matrix instead of critically examining them. The Medijay were not a part of any such thing as 'ancient Nubia'.

In fact they come into prominence as as warriors in the Kemetic army during the 18th dynasty. They fought against the Hyksos AND they fought against Kush.


Correction. The Medjay were first employed as mercenaries in the 5th dynasty. However, they became more prominent during the 18th and 19th dynasties. Yes, they did fight alongside Egyptians against the Kushites. But when the Kushite empire arose, Kush came to represent all of lower Nubia and upper Nubia.

quote:
Originally posted by rasol:

Somehow you have to break out of the pattern of repeating what you read in [wst] txt. without critically examining it.

What the heck are you talking about? As far as matters involving Nubia go, the Medjay were a people who inhabited Ta Seti. No one disputes that. They were just one of the several groups of Nubians we have records of.

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posted 12 December 2004 09:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thought2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by neo*geo:
They were just one of the several groups of Nubians we have records of.

Thought Writes:

There were no people known as Nubian during the 5th dynasty. The Medjai inhabited the eastern and western desert areas around Luxor as well as parts of Nubia.

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ausar
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posted 12 December 2004 10:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ausar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Thought Writes:

What is your opinion of the "Bedouin" from Wadi Abu Mu'Awwad, pictured in Wilkinsons "Genesis of the Pharaohs"?


I have not seen the picture you speak of. I have not read Wilkinson's book yet,but it's on my list. I know he wrote about the pre-dyanstic period in Egypt.

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neo*geo
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posted 12 December 2004 10:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for neo*geo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

There were no people known as Nubian during the 5th dynasty. The Medjai inhabited the eastern and western desert areas around Luxor as well as parts of Nubia.


Exactly. They were an ethnic group that inhabited the area which would later become Kush the Meroe. So it is correct to say they were Nubians just like Kushites, Yamites, and the Ijret...

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Thought2
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posted 12 December 2004 10:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thought2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by neo*geo:
Exactly. They were an ethnic group that inhabited the area which would later become Kush the Meroe. So it is correct to say they were Nubians just like Kushites, Yamites, and the Ijret...

Thought Writes:

The Eastern and Western Desert around Luxor is not a part of the geographic local known as Nubia.

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kenndo
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posted 13 December 2004 02:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kenndo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ausar:

More foreigners in Egypt:


The mile-wide necropolis falls mostly within the present village of
Qurna,inhabited by the desendants of Horobat warrior who have
arrived to settle there in the thirteenth century as tomb robbers,an
occupation many still follow.

page XXIII

Shahhat,an Egyptian by Richard Critchfield


James Wellard, in _Lost Worlds of Africa_ believes that "millions" of
European slaves were brought into N. Egyptian and other N. African
ports during the Muslim period. Add to this the migrations of Greeks,
Latins, Vandals, etc., and you get a very mixed lot

Turkish occupation of Egypt:


Ottomans
Western Asian tribes of Turkomen who besieged Costantinople and
established themselves as a powerful empire in present day Turkey
during the 15th century. The Ottoman Regime in Egypt went on from
1517 to 1800 A.D. Egypt, governed by a succession of appointed
viceroys who bore the title "Pasha", became a dependent province on
the greater Turkish empire in Istanbul.
http://www.aucegypt.edu/walking_tours/cairo/glossary/glossary.html

The people who live in Qurna are Saidi people ? that is to say, Upper Egyptians. From Beni Suef to Aswan, these people count themselves as different to those from the Delta. Egyptologists will tell you that these people are the direct descendants of the Ancient Egyptians, and this is of course so. [b]In Qurna, however, many of the families trace their descent back to three brothers who came from Arabia ? not Bedouin but Arab. The branches of the family I know are the Horabati ? the ?Warriors? ? an extended network of cousins and cousins of cousins. My first friend in Egypt, Mohamed Hag Ali Hotabaya, is a Horabati. He is the best of friends ? quick to laugh, incredibly hospitable and generous, and (luckily for me) like so many of the villagers he speaks excellent English. On the other hand he is also quick to take offence and very obstinate. I remember he once confessed to me that he thought his brain was made of granite! His mother gave me first home-cooked food so many years ago and now I am watching Mohamed?s three young sons grow up. http://www.ancientegyptmagazine.com/changing03.htm


Turkish people also sent petty officers to govern parts of Aswan and Lower Nubia:

The region had been Christian for less than a century when the Arab armies invaded Egypt in 640 AD. On
year later those armies reached Aswan, where the Islamic tide was stemmed, and the first cataract remained
the southern frontier of Islamic Egypt and the northern frontier of Christian Nubia for several centuries.
During the medieval times Christian Nubia flourished . It was united under the king of Makuria and enjoyed
a ''Classical Christian'' period between 850 and 1100 AD. Arabs had been penetrating the area at various times for centuries,however, as
peaceful settlers, as traders, and as raiders. Some came as tribal remnants of defeated Caliphates, such as
the Abbassids. During the Fatimid Caliphte [969-1161 A.D.] there were many Arab trading expeditions along
the Nile, dealing particularly in slaves[Hassan 1969]. Many Arab tribal leaders married into leading Nubian
families and after that the Nubian kingship system was gradually converted from one tracing relatives
matrilineally to one tracing them patrilineally[from Ibn Khaldun cities in Hassan 1967,pg. 127]. Islamic
religious doctrine and legal pratices also became more and more widespread through the intermarrying
process.
The Muslim conversion of Nubia thus seems to have been gradual ,covering
several centuries ,though in the late phases military were defensive. Salah-al-Din [the famous Salah-al-Din]
defeated a Nubian army that invaded Egypt in 1171,for example, and at various times unruly Arab tribes
from Upper Egypt pillaged the area. Christianity held on in many parts of Nubia untill the fourteenth
century,however, when Islamic raiders coming from the south,in what is know the Sudan,looted churches
and finally completed the long process of conversion [Adams 1967,pg15] Christian Nubian pilgrims were
noted in the holy places of Palestine as late as the Fifteenth century[Hassan 1967 pg. 125],but by the end of
the fourteenth century the vast majority of the Nubians had become staunch Muslims, as they are today.
From 1517, when the Turkish Sultan Selim sent Hassan Koosy to take over governorship of the area, all
through the Ottoman period,and up to the present century,much of Egyptian Nubia was ruled or dominated
by desendants of this family of Turkish petty gentry. Members of the Koosy family married into local
lineages amd resulting aristocracy became known as the kushaf. The desendants of this ruling family still
regard themselves as superior class among the Nubians.
During the Turkish period conditions of relative anarchy alternated with those of local tyranny,and
military forces frequently swept devastatingly in the area.
pages 6,7,8
Nubian Ceremonial Life
Joseph Kennedy
Nubian Ceremonial Life Studies in Islamic Syncretism and Cultural Change
by John G. Kennedy
* SBN: 0520027485


Mamelukes also fled to parts of Upper Egypt and Nubia:

Dongola has long been famous for its 'white

suq' ,meaning that the merchants of the

town,although mostly Sudanese in origin ,

are remarkably lighter lighter skinned by

comparison with the residents of the

surrounding districts. They are infact

purely Egyptian in origin,and their

pressence at Dongola is said to date from

the time when the Mameluke rulers were

expelled froim Egypt and fled to Nubia at

the beginning of the 19th century


page 60

Nubia:Corridor to Africa

Willam Y. Adams

http://www.metimes.com/issue99-43/cultent/play_examines_the.htm


Play examines the 'Nubian Issue'


Hazem Azmy Special to the Middle East Times
Al Talia Theater's Hekayat Nas Al Nahr (Tales of the River Dwellers), is set to reopen on October 20 with a number of modifications to the script, and will probably be one of the first Egyptian plays to deal with the so-called "Nubian issue."


This issue concerns the sufferings of Nubians who were gradually forced out of their homeland in southern Egypt, and away from the Nile that defined their existence, when Nubia was flooded due to the construction and successive enlargements of the Aswan Dam. The final blow came with the construction and completion of the High Dam under Nasser's regime.
Originally designed to be an adaptation of the Nubian writer hajjaj Adul's play Nas Al Nahr (The River Dwellers), the production evolved into an interrogation of Adul's world as a whole, with dramaturge Hazem Shehata and director Nasser Abdel Moneim supplementing their adaptation of the play with characters and motifs from four other non-dramatic works by the same author.


Mokhtar, a thirty-something Cairene government employee, stands out as dramaturge Shehata's original addition to Adul's characters. Yet it would be wrong to read him, or any other character, as the production's "official voice."


About Adul's five works, Shehata writes in the English section of the program notes, "one can trace a certain ideological voice commenting on the Nubian issue. This voice we kept intact here but also included other, conflicting ideological voices. The rationale is to allow each voice its moment of realization without favoring any particular voice over the others."


As such, the production is neither an elegy for a lost Nubian paradise nor an apology for the officials who brought about the enlargement project. It is perhaps both, depending on which side of the fence one would like to come down on.


In July 1999, almost halfway through the rehearsal process, Shehata traveled to the US to attend a training program. During his stay, he was repeatedly bombarded with slogans of "Free Nubia" and offers from Nubian "activists" of the "free world" to help Nubia gain independence from its Egyptian "colonizers."


In the process of responding to such comments, the Egyptian director, naturally, had to speak about his latest work and the topic soon attracted attention.


"Negotiations are now underway to have the play translated into English so that it may be presented in the US, in cooperation with an American troupe, as an example of the Egyptian 'black theater,'" Abdel Moneim says.


Not unlike people of color in the US and elsewhere, Nubians have over the years been subjected to ideological manipulation and marginalization. This has resulted in the creation of a number of misconceptions, on both sides, that HekayatNas Al Nahr sets itself to challenge and deconstruct.
Quote:

For instance, Mokhtar takes it for granted that his friend Salama cannot be Nubian because of his fair complexion, only to discover that his intellectual friend belongs to a group called the Megraab, the local term for Nubians who are of Hungarian origin (during the Mameluke period many people from Eastern Europe, the Balkans and Cacasus were brought to Egypt, some of whom assimilated with the Egyptian population in the area known as Nubia). As the southern intellectual tells his Cairene friend, the people that are lumped together as Nubians are in fact a mixture of different ethnic groups (African, Arab, Hungarian, and Turkish) united, perhaps, by a common spirit.

In this way Mokhtar stops believing in one more stereotype about Nubia - and so do we.


But herein lies another challenge: "when dished out bluntly, the abundance of information included out of necessity in the play, may eventually reduce the drama to an unsolicited history lesson," says Shehata recalling the reservations of some critics who attended the production's trial run shortly before and during the Cairo International Festival for Experimental Theater.


"We were particularly conscious of this pitfall while working on the revised version of the play," Abdel Moneim added without giving details.


Before the Turkish invasion were also settlements of foreigners around Lower Nubia:

Collections Ptolemaic period

The rulers of the Ptolemies of Egypt and the Romans were
contemporaries with the Meroitic Period. In the third century BC, they
maintained friendly relations.
From the end of the 3rd century to the middle of the 2nd century BC,
the Ptolemies occupied a part of Nubia that they called
Dodekaschoinos, which was in the Northern part of Lower Nubia (from
Aswan to Maharaqa). In this area they built many important temples
such as Philae, Kalabsha, Dakka, etc.
In 30 BC, the Ptolemies were replaced by the Romans.
Mummy Koshtamna, Nubia
Statue of Roman Soldier , Philae, Nubia http://www.numibia.net/nubia/ptolemies.asp

[/B]


Two corrections-the nubians of southern nubia marry more so within thier families than the black egyptians.
THE MEDIEVAL NUBIAN KINGDOM OF MARUKIA WAS NOT THE ONLY KINGDOM IN NUBIA IN THE MIDDLE AGES,A MATTER OF FACT ALWA WAS MORE POWERFUL AND RICHER IN SOUTHERN NUBIA.MEDIEVAL NUBIA WAS NOT UNITED.FIVE NUBIANS EXISTED DURING THE MIDDLE AGES.
MAKUKIA IN UPPER NUBIA DID UNITED WITH THE LOWER NUBIAN KINGDOM FOR AWHILE.
ALWA WAS IN SOUTHERN NUBIA AND PROTECTED ITSELF MUCH BETTER AND GREATER FROM ARAB AND OTHER INVADERS UNTIL TAKEN OVER BY THE FUNJ.
THE FUNJ WERE A CONFEDERATION OF OTHER SOUTHERN NUBIANS,SOME NUBIANS FROM ALWA,THE SHILLUK AND SOME OTHER AFRICANS.

THERE ARE SOME LIGHT SKIN NUBIANS,SOME WITH SOME FORM OF MIXTURE AND SOME THAT ARE UNMIXED,BUT THEY WOULD STILL BE CALLED BLACK,JUST LIKE THE NUBIANS WHO ARE UNMIXED AND THE UNMIXED MAKE ARE THE MAJORITY OF THE NUBIANS BECAUSE MOST OF THOSE STILL MARRY WITHIN THIER FAMILY AND SOME WITH OTHER BLACK AFRICANS.some of this mixing started in lower nubia with some nubians,but during different times in lower nubian history the lower nubians were wiped out,and lower nubia at times had little or nobody living there at all.lower nubia was filled with nubians coming from the south again and in very late ancient times there was alot of mixing there,but no all.
there was some mixing in upper nubia in late medieval times and extremely few mixed in southern nubia in early modern times in the lower classes,and few only have done it in modern times or recent times and it was very rare for those hill nubians in the noba hills to do so and for those nubians southern sudan extremely rare if any.

Some nubians do live in southern sudan and uganda and other places in africa and the world.

NILE NUBIANS BEEN AROUND ALONG TIME.
The desert nubians have a bit of a different culture and they were called the medjay,but they do not existed anymore because thier group had a great change but now they would be called the beja from medieval times,but they were called another name and had a different culture in late ancient times,and thEY were called blemmyes.


[This message has been edited by kenndo (edited 13 December 2004).]

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neo*geo
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posted 13 December 2004 08:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for neo*geo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

The Eastern and Western Desert around Luxor is not a part of the geographic local known as Nubia.


The Bejas are nomadic just as their ancestors were. But no one disputes that they are one of the ethnic groups that descend from the ancient Nubians...

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rasol
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posted 13 December 2004 09:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rasol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

The Eastern and Western Desert around Luxor is not a part of the geographic local known as Nubia.



quote:
But no one disputes that they [beja] one of the ethnic groups that descend from the ancient Nubians...

That statement could be made about the "Ancient Egyptians" in general.

Have to laugh sometimes as the wildebeast wade one by one into Mara river only to drown, year after year, responding to habit, not able to adapt...having learned nothing.

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neo*geo
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posted 13 December 2004 10:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for neo*geo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thought2:
[b] Thought Writes:

The Eastern and Western Desert around Luxor is not a part of the geographic local known as Nubia.



quote:
But no one disputes that they [beja] one of the ethnic groups that descend from the ancient Nubians...

That statement could be made about the "Ancient Egyptians" in general.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Who says Lower Egyptians generally descend from peoples in Nubia?

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Wally
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posted 13 December 2004 12:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Wally     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I invite you to read the following, very carefully...
quote:

The Asiatics, called the Amu, Seteyu, Kikau Khoswet (Manetho's Hyksos), came *willingly into Egypt as prisoners or as indentured servants because Egypt offered them opportunities. As their numbers increased they began to insinuate themselves into various positions of power. Ipuwer's complaints about the presence of the **"desert" in Egypt provides a cunning image of the changes taking place. The "Desert," the coarse nomads, ***consolidated their gains and opened Egypt to more and more migrations from the Mediterranean region." --p79, Dictionary of Ancient Egypt by Margaret Bunson

*It is rather doubtful that these prisoners and servants came willingly.

**Notice the liberty that is taken with the Kemetian language in order to avoid the important fact (as well as to appear incoherent) that the Kememu were being overwhelmed by Red peoples (Deshretu) from the northern lands (again).

***The tolerant nature of the Kememu allowed for the incorporation of these Asiatics into Kemetian society; these emigrants from the 'Mediterranean region' eventually, from the time of Psammantichus, took control of the country and still dominate, in fact overwhelm it, even to this very day.

the nature of Arab rule
Unlike the previous colonizers of Kemet, who out of reverence for the legacy of Pharaonic civilization, adopted the customs of the very people whom they came to dominate, the Arabs seeked to destroy it altogether, even to the point of banishing the very use of the native language.
There is however, the very resilience of the native peoples, where not only does the old customs still survive, but also the language, whether in the liturgy of the Coptic church, or within the language of 'Egyptian Arabic' itself (pidgin Arabic?).

One wonders what would Neferty's prophesies be about this situation today; would independence be restored once again from the south? and would the south now extend to the cape of Good Hope?

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Thought2
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posted 13 December 2004 02:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thought2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by neo*geo:
Who says Lower Egyptians generally descend from peoples in Nubia?

Thought Writes:

Neo, I have allready addressed this in my thread "The Model For The Peopling Of The Egyptian Nile". Ancient Egyptains, Ancient Nubians, Ancient Berbers and to a lesser extent certain Ancient Levantine and Aegean populations trace their roots to the Early Holocene expansion out of East Africa.

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neo*geo
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posted 13 December 2004 02:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for neo*geo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Neo, I have allready addressed this in my thread "The Model For The Peopling Of The Egyptian Nile". Ancient Egyptains, Ancient Nubians, Ancient Berbers and to a lesser extent certain Ancient Levantine and Aegean populations trace their roots to the Early Holocene expansion out of East Africa.


First you need to distinguish between facts and theories. Secondly, you have to state what your point is. Are you referring to the "Out of Africa" human migration theory?

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rasol
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posted 13 December 2004 03:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rasol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I invite you to read the following, very carefully...
quote:

The Asiatics, called the Amu, Seteyu, Kikau Khoswet (Manetho's Hyksos), came *willingly into Egypt as prisoners or as indentured servants because Egypt offered them opportunities. As their numbers increased they began to insinuate themselves into various positions of power. Ipuwer's complaints about the presence of the **"desert" in Egypt provides a cunning image of the changes taking place. The "Desert," the coarse nomads, ***consolidated their gains and opened Egypt to more and more migrations from the Mediterranean region." --p79, Dictionary of Ancient Egypt by Margaret Bunson

quote:

*It is rather doubtful that these prisoners and servants came willingly.

**Notice the liberty that is taken with the Kemetian language in order to avoid the important fact (as well as to appear incoherent) that the Kememu were being overwhelmed by Red peoples (Deshretu) from the northern lands (again).

***The tolerant nature of the Kememu allowed for the incorporation of these Asiatics into Kemetian society; these emigrants from the 'Mediterranean region' eventually, from the time of Psammantichus, took control of the country and still dominate, in fact overwhelm it, even to this very day.


.....anyone want to take up the challenge of explaining "deshrutu" in mdw ntr, as other than 'red ones'?

.....anyone want to take up the challenge of explaining why this term is associated with the Aamu, with Syria, and not with Medijay or Irjet, or Nehasi?

....anyone care to explain why an entire group of peoples living in savanna lands, forested lands, as well as dessert lands are none the less referred to as 'red ones'?

My contention is that there is no 'informed', honest disagreement over the meaning of these terms; only knowingly fake arguments and trolling. Prove me wrong.

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Thought2
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posted 13 December 2004 07:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thought2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
{First you need to distinguish between facts and theories.}

Thought Writes:

Neo, anytime we are dealing with historical issues we are dealing with theories, because we were not there in the past. The real issue is probable theories versus improbable theories. How do we differentiate between the two? Well, we can take a multi-disciplinary approach and utilize information from specialists who publish their work in peer-reviewed, scientific journals that are accredited by recognized governing bodies.

{Secondly, you have to state what your point is}

Thought Writes:

My points are are clearly laid out in the thread “The Peopling Of The Egyptian Nile”. But to re-cap, based upon multi-disciplinary analysis Egypt and parts of the Levant and Aegean were peopled from Sub-Saharan East Africa during the early Holocene.

{Are you referring to the "Out of Africa" human migration theory?}

Thought Writes:

I am referring to A “Out-Of-Africa” migration, but not THE “Out-Of-Africa” migration that peopled the entire globe. I am referring to the early Holocene “Out-Of-Africa” migration that spread haplotype E-M78 around the circum-Mediterranean basin during the early Holocene/early Neolithic period.

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alTakruri
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posted 13 December 2004 09:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for alTakruri     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
At one time I thought what I wrote below was
for this thread but now Im not sure but for
lack of where else to put it, here it goes


Kmt proper began at the south at what is now Elephantine slightly
north of the 1st cataract. This was the location of the 1st nome which
was called Ta Zeti. Ta Zeti was also the name of the region that was
immediately south of the 1st nome and from which its name may have
possibly been derived.

Among the earliest records of relations between Kmtyw (people north
of Elephantine) and Nhsw (people south of Elephantine) is the Djebel
Sheikh Suliman inscription of King Djer. Djebel Sheikh Suleiman is a
little north of the 2nd cataract. The inscription found there depicts a river
battle involving two settlements. The djebel, which is on the west bank,
had an early dynastic site. Across from it was a terminal A group site.

On the inscription, an unmanned boat floats over three dead enemies
and appears to be running down a fourth. A handtied leader on one knee
is yoked to the boat's prow. A standing leader with hands tied is in front of
a serekh with Djer's name. He holds a bow marking him as of TaZeti, the
Land of the Bow.

There's a 1st dynasty mention on the Palermo Stone of a "smiting of the
Troglodytae" [east desert miners?] . I don't have a copy of the stone to
examine for the actual word that has been translated as Troglodytae
but this may indicate that those far off from the Nile weren't ethnic Nhsyw.
While technically neither Kmtyw nor Nhsyw proper, the nomadic people
in the eastern desert between the Nile and the Red Sea are conveniently
reckoned as such pending their proximity to either TaWy or TaNhsyw.

Who were the peoples in TaSeti, the land that in earliest dynastic times
extended from el Kubaniya north of the 1st cataract to Kulb south of the
2nd cataract?

A 6th dynasty inscription by Merenre lists the Mazoi, the Irtet, and the
Wawat. Mazoi seems to definitely be an ethnonym but Irtet and Wawat
seem more like toponyms. The rulers of Irtet, Wawat, Yam, and Mazoi
assisted the engineering assignments of Weny who was Merenre's
governor of the southern nomes of Kmt.

They supplied Wawat acacia wood for cargo and tow boats used for
one to transport the granite in building a pyramid. These same peoples
signed up for Weny's punitive expedition against the Aamw. In time the
Mazoi/Medjay were well known as the "policemen" of Kmt at home and
in the colonies. The Aamw lodged numerous complaints against Medjay
billets' undue taking of proprieties on Aamw soil.

Yam was beyond the 2nd cataract. Harkuf, an important courtier of
Menenre and Pepi II, ventured there on several occasions. On one
trip to Yam he tried a route never before used by Kmtyw caravaneers.
He went through Sethi, Irtet, Mekher, and Tereres. Irtet, Sethu, and Wawat
were under one rule while Yam had its own ruler and presumably so did
Mazoi. In this same era the Temehu were in oases somewhere west of
Yam, maybe Selima for one.

Pepi II had twice in his reign to dispatch troops to Wawat and Irtet to
restore safe trade for Kmtyw interests. In essense these peoples and
their land were made into an economic or trading annex of Kmt. But they
were loving of their freedom and independence. To ensure free trade on
terms most favorable to the Kmtyw, Ta Seti rulers and their houses had to
be held royal court hostage in Kmt.

The Medjay on the other hand were mostly quite satisfied being under
Kmtyw suzereignty and profited from it expressing their militancy by
fighting for Kmt most times instead of against it.

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alTakruri
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posted 14 December 2004 07:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for alTakruri     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

There's a 1st dynasty mention on the Palermo Stone of a "smiting of the
Troglodytae" [east desert miners?] . I don't have a copy of the stone to
examine for the actual word that has been translated as Troglodytae
but this may indicate that those far off from the Nile weren't ethnic Nhsyw.
While technically neither Kmtyw nor Nhsyw proper, the nomadic people
in the eastern desert between the Nile and the Red Sea are conveniently
reckoned as such pending their proximity to either TaWy or TaNhsyw.



OK I found the name of the Troglodytae on the
Palermo Stone is Yntyw.

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ausar
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posted 14 December 2004 08:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ausar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
alTakruri,I don't know if you have acess to the Professor Bruce Willams articles in Journal of Near Eastern Studies,but he has a full article about the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscriptions. He says it shows an A-Group victory instead of conquest by Djer. You should be able to acess Journal of Near Eastern Studies at Jstor if you have acess to a University library.

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ausar
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posted 14 December 2004 08:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ausar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
See the following from Yurco on the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscriptions:

Dear Troy,

You have analyzed the evidence regarding Qustul in depth, but you have
missed two points that favor Bruce Williams' theory, and that no one has
refuted. First, regarding the Qustul Incense burners, the one debated is
not the only one found. It happens to be the best preserved one. Secondly,
show me one single example of an inscribed, decorated incense burner from
Egypt of the Naqada II-III era. There are none attested so far. Thus the
inscribed, decorated incense burners are likely an A-Group tradition, and
this supports Williams that Qustul had Egyptian style traditions in
A-Group. Next, there is the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman rock inscription. It
was shown to be A-Group, by William J. Murnane's epigraphic analysis,
published in JNES in 1987. It has an uninscribed serekh, not King Djer,
as earlier observers posited. Thus, as all agree, since uninscribed
serekhs are earliest, the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman rock inscription is A-
Group, and depicts a victory celebration, of the pharaonic cycle that
Williams and Logan discussed in JNES, 1987. No amount of scholarly
wriggling can make the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman rock inscription an import
from Egypt. These points strongly support Williams contention that the
A-Group indeed had the trappings of Egyptian tradition at least among the
elite. While the Abydos evidence points to that royal cemetery being older
that previously suspected, it may point to the Abydos-Naqada monarchy
being far older than suspected. You may recall that Petrie recovered
a black-top redware sherd from Naqada, ancient Nubt, that depicted the
Red Crown. So, the Red Crown was associated originally with ancient
Nubt-Naqada. That also indicates a deeper antiquity for the Nubt monarchy.
Another point, there is an indisputably royal tomb at
Nekhen-Hierakonpolis, the famous painted tomb. Also, Fairservice'
expedition found there a monumental mud-brick serekh style entrance to
a royal palace complex. Thus, here was yet another instance of a royal
center in Upper Egypt with deep roots.

Most sincerely,
Frank J. Yurco
University of Chicago

--
Frank Joseph Yurco fjyu...@midway.uchicago.edu

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alTakruri
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posted 14 December 2004 06:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for alTakruri     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
alTakruri,I don't know if you have acess to the Professor Bruce Willams articles in Journal of Near Eastern Studies,but he has a full article about the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscriptions. He says it shows an A-Group victory instead of conquest by Djer. You should be able to acess Journal of Near Eastern Studies at Jstor if you have acess to a University library.



Ausar

Did Bruce Williams write about the Djebek Sheikh Suliman
inscription? I know he wrote about the Djebel el Arak knife
handle in JNES 46. And no, I haven't read Wm J Murnane's
epigraphic analysis of the inscription or any peer reviews
related to it. I always appreciate new and additional info and
I thank you for citing it.

quote:
Originally posted by ausar:
See the following from Yurco on the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman inscriptions:

. . . there is the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman rock inscription. It
was shown to be A-Group, by William J. Murnane's epigraphic analysis,
published in JNES in 1987. It has an uninscribed serekh, not King Djer,
as earlier observers posited. Thus, as all agree, since uninscribed
serekhs are earliest, the Gebel Sheikh Suleiman rock inscription is A-
Group, and depicts a victory celebration, of the pharaonic cycle that
Williams and Logan discussed in JNES, 1987. . . .



I relied on N M Sherif, director of the Natl Museum at Khartoum,
for the inscription and Baines & Maleks Cultural Atlas of AE for
site locations. Two things Yurco says are granted as givens

  1. the inscription was made on the spot
  2. uninscribed serekhs are earlier.

However, I don't follow the rest of Yurco's interpretation and
reasoning. Here's why.

Terminal A group and early dynastic cultures were contemporaries.
So even if it turns out to be true that the serekh isn't inscribed with
Djer's name that's still no reason it can't be early dynastic. Especially
if, as according to Baines & Malek, there are other early dynastic
inscriptions and reliefs at the 2nd cataract.

That classic and terminal A group is the precursor for some pre/early
dynastic kingship iconography -- as B Wms has shown with the finds
from Qustul -- makes for a hard job of distinguishing the two in TaSeti.

On the east bank opposite the Djebel are three Khartoum variant sites,
an Abkan site, and a classic/terminal A group site. On the west bank
the Djebel itself only has the one site that Baines & Malek say is early
dynastic. Why would the engraved sandstone slab there be A group
and why would it prominently display a personification of TaSeti bound
captive to a post in front of a hawk headed serekh?

I have to doubt A group kings marking one of their own victories as a
victory over TaSeti. And why would the defeat of a solitary recent site
in sharp contrast to the complex of sites across the river from it that go
back 800 years earlier merit a victory stele? It seems some ruler not
from TaSeti was commemorating the defeat of an A group constellation.

Maybe Murnane has the answer to all these questions but right now the
only thing we know about his analysis is that he says the serekh does
not contain the name Djer which is not the same as saying serekh does
not stand for a ruler from Kmt. We haven't read Murane's own written
opinion on whether the inscription is A group or early dynastic.

So in light of the new info you gave I'd alter my statement
>>A standing leader with hands tied is in front of a serekh with Djer's name. <<
by removing the mention of Djer and instead just say
>>A standing leader with hands tied is in front of a serekh.<<


.

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ausar
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posted 14 December 2004 08:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ausar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Which edition of Baines and Malek are you looking at? The Baines and Malek I read stated that A-Group and Naqada culture can barely be distinguished from each other. The other article cited by Yurco is avaiable in Journal of Near Eastern Studies. I might email it to you when I ever recieve a copy of it.

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