The Model For The Peopling Of The Egyptian Nile

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Author	Topic: The Model For The Peopling Of The Egyptian Nile
Thought2 Member Posts: 937 Registered: May 2004	posted 12 December 2004 05:18 PM The Model For The Peopling Of The Egyptian Nile 1) North Africans and all non-Africans descend from a Sub-Saharan East African background. Tishkoff et al. 2) Sub-Saharan East Africa is in tropical Africa. 3) Glogger’s Rule indicates that Sub-Saharan East Africans would be dark skinned. 4) Humans traveled out of Africa via the Nile Valley, settling along the way. Luis et al. 2004 5) The most recent wave out of Sub-Saharan East Africa occurred during the early Holocene. This is supported in the genetic record (E-M78), archaeological record (micro-burins and grind stones), linguistics (Afro-Asiatic language origin in Horn and spread TO Eurasia), and skeletal remains (“Negroid” nasal and mouth forms in Neolithic Greece). 6) Population size was larger in Africa than elsewhere prior to the Neolithic period. Hence the direction of the population feed between Africa and Eurasia would be mainly one going FROM Africa to Eurasia. Source: Relethford, J.H. and Jorde, L.B. (1999) Genetic evidence for larger African population size during recent human evolution. Am. J. Phys. Anthrop., 108, 251–260. 7) This early Holocene migration from Sub-Saharan East Africa was the main source of the peopling of Egypt and the Maghreb with some spill over into the Fertile Crescent and the Aegean. Keita et al. 2004 8) The Natufians of the Levant had genetic characteristics and physical features that linked them with East Africans. Hence any back migration from this region would have brought populations that resembled East Africans back into Africa! 9) The two main genetic clusters found in Modern Egypt are Haplogroups E (E-M2, E-M78 and E-M81) and J-M267. The E clusters are all originate within Sub-Saharan East Africa or Central Africa. E-M81 derived from the ancestral East African E-M35 lineage that spread to North Africa along with E-M78 during the early Holocene. J-M267 is derived from the Arab invasion. Hence f we deduct J-M267 from the pool that would have existed during the Pharonic period we can see that the Ancient Egyptians were primarily of a early Holocene East African origin. IP: Logged
ausar Moderator Posts: 3203 Registered: Feb 2003	posted 12 December 2004 05:23 PM What about studies from Dna collected in pre-dyanstic Egyptian skeletal remains? What about when the Sahara was once more moist than today? IP: Logged
Thought2 Member Posts: 937 Registered: May 2004	posted 12 December 2004 05:35 PM {What about studies from Dna collected in pre-dyanstic Egyptian skeletal remains?} Thought Writes: The method for DNA extraction has not advanced enough to get many samples from this period. However, the one such study I have read about on the remains from Adaima have affinities with Sub-Saharan populations. {What about when the Sahara was once more moist than today?} Thought Writes: I agree, this region seems to have recieved Central African (E-M2 carrying) types and East African (E-M78 carrying) types during the early holocene. These populations went on to people AE. IP: Logged
ausar Moderator Posts: 3203 Registered: Feb 2003	posted 12 December 2004 05:56 PM quote: The method for DNA extraction has not advanced enough to get many samples from this period. However, the one such study I have read about on the remains from Adaima have affinities with Sub-Saharan populations. However, I believe some Dna has been extracted from the Mungo Man in Australia. I also believe that an Sweedish geneticist named Paabo has attempted with sucess to extract Dna from remains from mummies from the 12th dyansty. quote: The method for DNA extraction has not advanced enough to get many samples from this period. However, the one such study I have read about on the remains from Adaima have affinities with Sub-Saharan populations. Do you know where I might read this study? I believe it was done by a French geneticist,and I had the link awhile ago. I have lost this link. [This message has been edited by ausar (edited 12 December 2004).] IP: Logged
Thought2 Member Posts: 937 Registered: May 2004	posted 12 December 2004 06:03 PM quote: Originally posted by ausar: I also believe that an Sweedish geneticist named Paabo has attempted with sucess to extract Dna from remains from mummies from the 12th dyansty. Thought Writes: Keita mentions this study in "Egypt In Africa". The paper and Keita's paper in "Egypt In Africa" pre-date the discovery of E-M78 as a African derived haplotype. Thought Posts: Keita and Boyce Egypt In Africa "A study on 12th Dynasty DNA shows that the remains evaluated had multiple lines of descent, including not suprisingly some from "Sub-Saharan" Africa (Paabo and Di Rienzo 1993). The other lineages were not identified, but MAY BE AFRICAN IN ORIGIN. More work is needed, In the future, early remains from the Nile Valley and the rest of Africa will have to be studied in this manner in order to establish the early baseline range of genetic variation of all Africa. The data are important to avoid stereotyped ideas about the DNA of African peoples." Thought IP: Logged
Thought2 Member Posts: 937 Registered: May 2004	posted 12 December 2004 06:04 PM quote: Originally posted by ausar: Do you know where I might read this study? I believe it was done by a French geneticist,and I had the link awhile ago. I have lost this link.[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 12 December 2004).] Thought Writes: I know they mention it in Ankhonline.com. It is a French research team that did this extraction. IP: Logged
Thought2 Member Posts: 937 Registered: May 2004	posted 13 December 2004 02:39 PM quote: Originally posted by ausar: Do you know where I might read this study? I believe it was done by a French geneticist,and I had the link awhile ago. I have lost this link.[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 12 December 2004).] Thought Posts: "Les surprises de l'ADN ancien" de E. Crubezy et al. publié dans le magazine de vulgarisation scientifique La Recherche n°353 de Mai 2002. Thought Writes: has anyone read this study on the finding of the Benin Sickle Cell haplotype in pre-dynastic Egyptain remains? Use of the amplification refractory mutation system (ARMS) in the study of HbS in predynastic Egyptian remains. Marin A, Cerutti N, Massa ER. publié dans Boll. Soc. Ital. Biol. Sper. 1999 May-Jun ;75(5-6):27-30 IP: Logged
Thought2 Member Posts: 937 Registered: May 2004	posted 13 December 2004 02:42 PM Thought Writes: Here is an interesting study on the find of M. africanum T.B. in Middle Kingdom Egyptians. Thought Posts: http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/content/full/41/1/359 ABSTRACT Bone and soft tissue samples from 85 ancient Egyptian mummies were analyzed for the presence of ancient Mycobacterium tuberculosis complex DNA (aDNA) and further characterized by spoligotyping. The specimens were obtained from individuals from different tomb complexes in Thebes West, Upper Egypt, which were used for upper social class burials between the Middle Kingdom (since ca. 2050 BC) and the Late Period (until ca. 500 BC). A total of 25 samples provided a specific positive signal for the amplification of a 123-bp fragment of the repetitive element IS6110, indicating the presence of M. tuberculosis DNA. Further PCR-based tests for the identification of subspecies failed due to lack of specific amplification products in the historic tissue samples. Of these 25 positive specimens, 12 could be successfully characterized by spoligotyping. The spoligotyping signatures were compared to those in an international database. They all show either an M. tuberculosis or an M. africanum pattern, but none revealed an M. bovis-specific pattern. The results from a Middle Kingdom tomb (used exclusively between ca. 2050 and 1650 BC) suggest that these samples bear an M. africanum-type specific spoligotyping signature. The samples from later periods provided patterns typical for M. tuberculosis. This study clearly demonstrates that spoligotyping can be applied to historic tissue samples. In addition, our results do not support the theory that M. tuberculosis originated from the M. bovis type but, rather, suggest that human M. tuberculosis may have originated from a precursor complex probably related to M. africanum. IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 2055 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 10 February 2005 05:14 PM Comparison of DNA fingerprint patterns of isolates of Mycobacterium africanum from east and west Africa WH Haas, G Bretzel, B Amthor, K Schilke, G Krommes, S Rusch-Gerdes, V Sticht- Groh and HJ Bremer Mycobacterium africanum is a pathogen found in tuberculosis patients in certain parts of Africa and is a member of the Mycobacterium tuberculosis complex. Biochemically, strains of M. africanum exhibit a high degree of variability, with some tendency to cluster according to their geographical origin. To investigate whether this phenotypic variability is reflected at the genetic level, we performed DNA fingerprint analysis of strains isolated from patients with pulmonary tuberculosis in Uganda and Sierra Leone. IS6110 DNA fingerprinting was carried out by the mixed-linker PCR method. A total of 138 strains of M. africanum were analyzed: 42 isolates from Uganda and 96 isolates from Sierra Leone. With few exceptions, the resulting DNA fingerprint patterns grouped together according to their country of origin. A striking lack of variability of DNA fingerprints was found for strains from Sierra Leone, where 70 of 96 isolates (61.5%) fell into clusters. The two largest clusters accounted for 41.7% of all isolates and differed by only one band, as confirmed by standard DNA fingerprinting. In contrast, only two clusters (7.1%) with two and three isolates, respectively, were found for M. africanum isolates collected in Uganda, and three of the DNA fingerprints contained fewer than seven bands. Strains of M. tuberculosis collected and processed during the same time period were highly variable in both countries. Our results support the concept of geographically defined subtypes of M. africanum. IP: Logged
Wally Member Posts: 603 Registered: Oct 2003	posted 10 February 2005 06:35 PM quote: Originally posted by Thought2: The Model For The Peopling Of The Egyptian Nile 1) North Africans and all non-Africans descend from a Sub-Saharan East African background... This is a very informative topic, but I have one question: why is there in these studies reference to "sub-Sahara" whereas during the time period being discussed there was no "Sahara" to speak of... Tropical Africa was merely a few miles south of the Mediterranean Sea coast , wasn't it? [This message has been edited by Wally (edited 10 February 2005).] IP: Logged
lamin Member Posts: 133 Registered: Nov 2004	posted 10 February 2005 06:45 PM quote: Originally posted by Wally: This is a very informative topic, but I have one question: why is there in these studies reference to "sub-Sahara" whereas during the time period being discussed there was no "Sahara" to speak of... The answer is that "sub-Sahara" is a code term; it's also loaded--with the implicit goal of truncating North Africa and its history, archaeology and anthropology from the rest of Africa. IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 2055 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 10 February 2005 07:13 PM I think most of us agree that Sub-sahara is a euphemism. For most of Africa's history there has been a watered grassland passage from the rift valley regions in the east all the way to the west coast. The peopling of Africa reflects that fact, the language families, the phenotypes and genetic lineages stretch from coast to coast. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 10 February 2005).] IP: Logged
Super car Member Posts: 171 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 10 February 2005 08:49 PM Bottomline is that these people having come from tropical Africa, had to have been tropically adapted. Afterall, that is really what a black man is, in a physical sense. But what connects Africans together, are lineages that have long been present on the continent, before they branched off into new derivatives in new settings with, in some cases, different environmental conditions from that under which the parent genes were originally developed. This is why it is interesting to see some folks apply pseudo-scientific labels to African genes that had fully developed on the continent before branching off, thereby implying a back migration of the genes. We have a good example of this right here on Egyptsearch; how the E3b was implicated as such. IP: Logged
Thought2 Member Posts: 937 Registered: May 2004	posted 10 February 2005 09:51 PM quote: Originally posted by Wally: This is a very informative topic, but I have one question: why is there in these studies reference to "sub-Sahara" whereas during the time period being discussed there was no "Sahara" to speak of... Tropical Africa was merely a few miles south of the Mediterranean Sea coast , wasn't it? [This message has been edited by Wally (edited 10 February 2005).] Thought Writes: The Sahara became fertile and green at the onset of the Holocene circa 14,000 BP. During the Last Glacial Maximum (20,000 BP to roughly 14,000 BP) the Sahara was larger and more arid than today. IP: Logged
lamin Member Posts: 133 Registered: Nov 2004	posted 11 February 2005 11:35 AM To: Supercar The "back migration" talk is like a grandchild claiming that his grandfather resembles him rather than he resembling or "taking after" his grandfather. Just amusing! IP: Logged
Super car Member Posts: 171 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 11 February 2005 11:46 AM quote: Originally posted by lamin: To: Supercar The "back migration" talk is like a grandchild claiming that his grandfather resembles him rather than he resembling or "taking after" his grandfather. Just amusing! That's right. Couldn't have made it any more plainer. IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 2055 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 14 February 2005 02:26 PM From Nature review showing Y chromosome throughout the world. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 14 February 2005).] IP: Logged
Super car Member Posts: 171 Registered: Jan 2005	posted 14 February 2005 03:31 PM Informative map indeed. Notice the great deal of the blue representation all over Africa. IP: Logged
rasol Member Posts: 2055 Registered: Jun 2004	posted 15 February 2005 02:53 PM The difference between E3A and E3B E3a --- SRV10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, M145, M213, Yap, SRY4064, M96, P29, P2, DYS391p, M2, P1 E3b --- SRV10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, M145, M213, Yap, SRY4064, M96, P29, P2, DYS391p, M35 http://www.lakeathens.com/dna/Y-DNA-Haplogroups.htm IP: Logged

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