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 Negroid affinities in ancient Greece??? (Page 1)
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| Author | Topic: Negroid affinities in ancient Greece??? |
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S.Mohammad Member Posts: 333 |
posted 20 December 2004 03:12 AM
  
I've already described type B Northwest African Mesolithic crania in another thread and upon further reading I found this:
In Table 16 we note the same parallels to ancient Lower Nubians that characterize Type B males, and the similarity to Derry's Siwa series is again strong, but we find also a strikingly close resemblance to a series of West African crania from Fernand Vaz in the Gaboon (Trevor, '49) This resemblance is in form rather than size, as the Gabunese series is made up of much smaller individuals, but it is still far closer than is the rather tenuous resemblance between the males of Type B and those of Fernand Vaz. Unfortunately the racial and cultural origins and affinities of Trevor's Fernand Vaz series are shrouded in mystery, but two of the specimens are catalogued as Fang, and the rest can hardly have come from very far away. According to Seligman ('35, p. 182) the Fang are immigrants probably from somewhere a little west of the Congo-Nile watershed, and he is inclined to consider them as of partly Hamitic origin although now much modified by mixture following their arrival on the West African coast.......... The series described by Trevor was collected presumably between 30 and 50 years after the arrival of the Fang in the Gaboon, and so we may assume that it is a relatively unadulterated sample of the original immigrant type together with perhaps, a certain proportion of the type of the older and probably Bantu inhabitants of the region.
[This message has been edited by S.Mohammad (edited 20 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
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S.Mohammad Member Posts: 333 |
posted 20 December 2004 03:34 AM
Now moving on, we find populations outside of Africa with affinities to Type B Northwest African Mesolithic crania, which we have just established, was akin to Lower Nubians and a series of crania from gabon west Africa, which makes type b undoubtedly Negroid. We even find populations with affinites to Type B in Greece and among the Natufians, read: We find that Type B is also remarkably close to Angel's ('44) Ancient Greek "Classic Mediterranean" Type B, which, in its turn, is even closer to Derry's Siwa series than are el Batrawi's A-Group Lower Nubians.
The Natufian skull from Shuqbah in Palestine that was illustrated and briefly described by Keith('31, pp. 221-223) is very like some of our Type B specimens, although the mandibular angle is more open, the mandible itself less massive, and the cranial vault fuller and more rounded as viewed from the side. The orbits are slightly rounder, and the nose is broader throughout its entire length. The resemblance remains none the less impressive.
L. Cabot-Briggs Comments????????? [This message has been edited by S.Mohammad (edited 20 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 2149 |
posted 20 December 2004 08:50 AM
You mean the Southern Europeans don't get E3b and Benin sickle cell from 'proto-caucasoid' sources! Deinekes will be infuriated! So much of the argument of the Eurocentrists is simply based on ignoring the fact that the game has moved on since Carelton Coon. So called 'mainstream' anthropology moves closer and closer to Diop which each passing year. (whether he gets any 'credit' or not) It was Diop who was among the 1st to state that the Medit-Caucasian race was little more than a face saving rhetorical effort to disguise heterogeniety in Europe. IP: Logged |
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Keino Junior Member Posts: |
posted 20 December 2004 09:33 AM
quote: Very interesting! IP: Logged |
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S.Mohammad Member Posts: 333 |
posted 20 December 2004 09:52 AM
quote: One thing Dienekes has failed to address concerning Coon was that Coon stated THIS as per quoted from the same source: Coon ('39, p.63) has remarked that "many living Europeans of Mediterranean extraction" show a considerable negroid tendency, but here it assumes the role of a sexual as well as racial characteristic L. Cabot Briggs [This message has been edited by S.Mohammad (edited 20 December 2004).] [This message has been edited by S.Mohammad (edited 20 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 2149 |
posted 20 December 2004 12:48 PM
I am afraid to ask what is meant by 'sexually' Negroid as opposed to racially.  Good old Carleton Coon.IP: Logged |
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Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 20 December 2004 11:05 PM
Black Folk Here and There Vol.1 St. Clair Drake If the early Delta population was Natufian, even Carleton Coon, an anthropologist whose racist statements sometimes embarrassed his colleagues, would concede a Negroid tinge. On one occasion he wrote of Natufians that "the wide, low vaulted nose, in combination with prognathism, gives a somewhat negroid cast to the face." But he hastened to conclude that these people were REALLY "white," that "these late Natufians represent a basically Mediterranean type with minor Negroid affinities." These same people would probably be classified as "Negroes" in the United States, where such MINOR Negroid affinities are always enough to tip the scales. In the Middle East, however, they remain "white". Such inconsistencies have evoked charges against the professional taxonomists ranging from hypocrisy to racism, by those Blacks who are aware of their operations. They see a definite attempt to insist that the Neolithic innovators who developed agriculture, pottery, metallurgy, and weaving could not possibly have been what we now call "Negroes". IP: Logged |
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Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 20 December 2004 11:46 PM
Thought Writes: One thing that the recent studies on the Natufians has revealed is that Paletine and not Norther (Lower Egypt) was actually the buffer zone between indigenous African populations and Eurasians up to the end of the New Kingdom. IP: Logged |
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Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 21 December 2004 03:36 AM
Bringing back old and outdated craniometry!?  Again: Any conclusion can be deduced. [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 21 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 2149 |
posted 21 December 2004 05:09 AM
....from someone who quotes from wikipedia and britannica as primary sources on physical anthropology and linguistics. ...from someone who believes that Ethiopians are descendant from King Solomon and Moses. ....from someone who thinks that Berber originates with the FlintStone-age tool making industry. ....from a total fool, from whom only a foolish conclusion can ever be deduced. IP: Logged |
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Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 21 December 2004 06:09 AM
quote: I don't quote any wikipedia. Just admit you don't know **** about physical anthropology. You are just talking out of your ass all the time and you think someone takes you seriously. Just don't think i take you seriously dude.
quote: Let me get your point straight... Are you denying cultural relationships between northern Ethiopians and southern Arabians? King Solomon and Moses were both Semitic speakers (Hebrew and Arabic are semitic languages), so were southern Arabians. Proto-Semitic is basically the same as Afro-Asiatic but the modern Semitic speech (called Sabaean) and script was introduced to Ethiopia from southern Arabia during the first millennium B.C. During the first millennium B.C. and possibly even earlier, various Semitic-speaking groups from Southwest Arabia began to cross the Red Sea and settle along the coast and in the nearby highlands. These migrants brought with them their Semitic speech (Sabaean and perhaps others) and script (Old Epigraphic South Arabic) and monumental stone architecture. A fusion of the newcomers with the indigenous inhabitants produced a culture known as pre-Aksumite. The factors that motivated this settlement in the area are not known, but to judge from subsequent history, commercial activity must have figured strongly. The port city of Adulis, near modern-day Mitsiwa, was a major regional entrepôt and probably the main gateway to the interior for new arrivals from Southwest Arabia. Archaeological evidence indicates that by the beginning of the Christian era this pre-Aksumite culture had developed western and eastern regional variants. The former, which included the region of Aksum, was probably the polity or series of polities that became the Aksumite state.
quote: What have the Imazighen anything to do with the subject? You are not even relevant just admit you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
quote: The only straw head here is you so keep your bs shut. By relying on old craniology (which was also used by the nazis and racist British) you just demonstrate how much you know about physical anthropology. [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 21 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
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S.Mohammad Member Posts: 333 |
posted 21 December 2004 08:33 AM
quote:
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rasol Member Posts: 2149 |
posted 21 December 2004 08:45 AM
quote:
quote:No, I am saying you are a bit of a knucklehead. Got it straight now?  Case in point..... quote:No knucklehead, Proto-Semitic refers to a single language that is the ostinsible basis of all semitic. Semetic is one sub-group of Afro-Asiatic language group which consists of hundreds of different languages and many sub groups. They are not 'basically the same e thing'. Ignorance of this fact is no crime. However the fact that this has been explained serveral times by several posters, and yet you are unable to grasp it shows that you are 'basically' a fool. And that is how we regard you. Case dismissed. IP: Logged |
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Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 21 December 2004 09:42 AM
quote: LOL it's quite obvious that you and rasol are one of the same. No wonder you two always "hang around" by the same time. The first inhabitants of Northwest Africa were prehistoric Cro-Magnons, any strawhead would know that. IP: Logged |
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Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 21 December 2004 09:47 AM
quote: What is your source for this? Proto-Semitic is the same as Afro-Asiaitic, the language family which spread out of Africa. Also Akkadian is the earliest-attested Semitic language. The Semitic language family has the longest recorded history of any linguistic group. The Akkadian language is first attested in cuneiform writing on clay tablets from ancient Mesopotamia (modern Iraq) from the mid-third millennium B.C., and Semitic languages continue to be spoken in the Middle East and in northeastern Africa today. [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 21 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 2149 |
posted 21 December 2004 09:56 AM
S. Muhhammad wrote: quote: Well said. That title is also well earned.  [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 21 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 2149 |
posted 21 December 2004 10:03 AM
quote:YOU HAVE ALREADY BEEN SO PROVIDED. Yet here you are, still begging for a hand-holding, elementary training-wheels included free education.... by making ignorant statements and baiting others into repettition of facts until they finally penetrate your thick skull, eh? Go back and read the replies to you from Thought, AlTakuri, myself and Ausar, and the sources cited. Don't repeat your ignorant remarks any more until you understand them. You can lead the mule to water, but you can't make him drink. Educating you is too dirty a job. Do your own dirty work! [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 21 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
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Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 21 December 2004 10:16 AM
quote: Make one more personal attack and don't expect me to take you seriously. Fact is that during this whole process you are the one being educated, what obviously drives you mad. IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 2149 |
posted 21 December 2004 10:21 AM
...make one intelligent remark and maybe someone will start taking you seriously. Until then, cut your crybaby whining. You already have an entire thread devoted to your drama queen antics. IP: Logged |
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Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 21 December 2004 10:31 AM
quote: Who cares about what YOU consider intelligent or not? Who even takes you seriously... Also i bet you don't even have an academic.
quote: Sorry but you are the one doing the crying. Not only that but you're also starting to sound like a closet queen while getting educated during this whole process. [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 21 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 2149 |
posted 21 December 2004 10:34 AM
S. Muhammad writes: quote:Good advice, but while you can lead a mule to water.... Maybe just have his mother buy him an updated volume of Britannica? Or perhaps she too knows a wasted effort when she sees one. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 21 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
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Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 21 December 2004 10:41 AM
quote: Lol i bet you aren't even able to comprehend Britannica you dumbfuck. [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 21 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 2149 |
posted 21 December 2004 10:46 AM
quote: Now you're plagiarising your own mother! fyi: Also explains where he gets the potty mouth from. IP: Logged |
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Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 21 December 2004 10:48 AM
quote: How old are you really? 12-43? IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 2149 |
posted 21 December 2004 10:52 AM
quote:I always laughed at the idea that Egypt is supposedly a'unique' geography allowing for the denormalisation of historical inquery into it's peoples, cultures and origins. Yes Egypt is a geographical crossroads as is Palestine-Isreal, Turkey and Greece, Syria, Iran and Iraq, etc.. IP: Logged |
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S.Mohammad Member Posts: 333 |
posted 21 December 2004 01:33 PM
quote: X4Dummy you still don't get it, do you? The crania I'm talking about are Mechta, Afalou, Aioun Berich, etc, these crania are the ones that are called "Cro-Magnoid", UP, or Cro-Magnon, you actually argue without knowing anything. IP: Logged |
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S.Mohammad Member Posts: 333 |
posted 21 December 2004 01:37 PM
quote: Proto-Semitic is NOT the same as Afro-Asiatic, it belongs in the same family as Afro-Asiatic, thats like saying Proto-Romance languages are Indo-European, though Romance languages are a branch from Indo-European. IP: Logged |
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alTakruri Junior Member Posts: |
posted 21 December 2004 03:17 PM
quote:
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Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 21 December 2004 03:48 PM
quote: Cro-Magnons well also found in Europe. They were no "race", the were prehistorical anatomically modern humans. You have no point.
quote: So? It is still in the Afro-Asiaitic group of languages. Also the speakers of Proto-Semitic were illiterate. The script and dialect were introduced from the Near East Sumerian culture (4,000 years ago). [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 21 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
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S.Mohammad Member Posts: 333 |
posted 21 December 2004 03:54 PM
quote:[B] Cro-Magnons well also found in Europe. They were no "race", the were prehistorical anatomically modern humans. You have no point. [/QUOTE]
[This message has been edited by S.Mohammad (edited 21 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
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Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 21 December 2004 04:15 PM
quote: You cannot even compare them with modern humans! Their brain was about 4% larger than the modern human. We are not exactly the same. Saying they were black or Caucasian is non-scientific bs. Cro-Magnon are considered to be an evolutionary branch of modern humans. Also who the hell says that prognathism is a African trait? This comes from the very same pseudo-scientific methods of distinguishing Africans from Europeans by some mythical physically inherited traits. [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 21 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
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ausar Moderator Posts: 3309 |
posted 21 December 2004 08:16 PM
quote: Aveloar prognathism is a negriod trait. These measurements are still used by Forensic scientiist,and thus still used by mainstream specialists. Corey Sparks, a leading anthropology student, published a journal article about how your genetics effects chracteristics of crania.
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ausar Moderator Posts: 3309 |
posted 21 December 2004 08:23 PM
Study Suggests Genetics Shape Skulls By BILL BERGSTROM Associated Press Writer PHILADELPHIA (AP)--Nearly a century ago, Franz Boas, the man known as It was a powerfully influential finding, because at the time, skull Now, though, a new analysis suggests the distinguished anthropologist Whether Boas deliberately distorted his findings is not clear. But ``It's pretty clear that Boas was in the forefront of racial equality Jantz also said that Boas was ``seriously hamstrung because he In Boas' day, the general view was that Europeans were the dominant But Jantz and Penn State graduate student Corey Sparks used a computer ``Unfortunately, research design was deficient, and his findings were But American Anthropologist, the journal of the American Gravlee said he had not interpreted Boas' study as saying race or ``We independently find that there are differences between those born The magazine has asked Jantz and Sparks to write a companion piece for Sparks said he and Jantz are not suggesting a return to the idea Boas ``There still are occasional individuals that think that, but it's Boas, who immigrated to the United States from Germany in the 1880s, Boas took measurements of skull length, width and the ratio between Boas did not directly compare the study subjects' cranial volume _ In a 1912 American Anthropologist article, Boas said the length of For example, he reported that Eastern European Jews tended to have But Jantz and Sparks said that in America, blacks and whites have not Jantz and Sparks said their analyses did show small differences ``We're not sure if it was wishful thinking on his part before he even ___ On the Net: Jantz and Sparks article: http://www.pnas.org Gravlee, Bernard, Leonard article: http://www.aaanet.org/aa IP: Logged |
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ausar Moderator Posts: 3309 |
posted 21 December 2004 08:32 PM
Biological difference between populations have been identified by nonmetric criteria in the cranium, as the skull has been shown to be the best indicator of race (Brues, 1990) For forensic anthropologists the need to understand and identify individuals of mixed ancestry is necessary as secular changes occur in the United States. This study looks at the Terry Collection, Colonial Sites, and African material in an attempt to trace the presence of admixture in Blacks through 7 nonmetric traits IP: Logged |
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Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 21 December 2004 10:54 PM
{Bringing back old and outdated craniometry!?} Thought Writes: Please tell us SPECIFICALLY what craniometry is and then give one of our examples as it suites your expressed definition. IP: Logged |
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Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 21 December 2004 10:59 PM
{Proto-Semitic is basically the same as Afro-Asiatic} Thought Writes: Orionox, “proto” means first. Semitic is a branch of the Afro-Asiatic language family and proto-Semitic is the pristine form of Semitic. Proto-Afro-Asiatic is the first form of the Afro-Asiatic languages. Thought Posts: “Evidence indicates that all Semitic languages have developed from a common language in use long before writing (and hence unattested), which Semitists term Proto-Semitic. This would have been a member of the Afro-Asiatic family of languages, along with sister languages, possibly including some ancestor of Egyptian (Proto-Egyptian?), along with other languages. At a much earlier date there would presumably have been a Proto-Afro-Asiatic. The territory of the Afro-Asiatic languages would have been Western Asia (the Middle East), and parts of Africa, although for all we know Proto-Semitic may have originated in Africa and migrated to the Middle East.” IP: Logged |
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Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 21 December 2004 11:06 PM
quote: Thought Posts: COLIN P. GROVES AND ALAN THORNE 1999 The Terminal Pleistocene and
Thought Writes: In the same study, Groves and Throne find the "intermediate" Afalou to be closest to the modern Dogon! IP: Logged |
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Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 21 December 2004 11:08 PM
quote: Thought Writes: What is most interesting about this study is that the Afalou unit POST-DATES the Taforalt unit, implying gene flow from south to north with the onset of the Holocene wet-phase. IP: Logged |
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Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 21 December 2004 11:13 PM
quote: Thought Writes: Which is why it is important to contextualize history within the framework of a multi-disciplinary approach. Prior to the late Neolithic period population density would have been greater in Africa than anywhere else in the world. Hence if these regions were cross-roads, the roads were being crossed primarily FROM Africa to Eurasia. IP: Logged |
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Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 21 December 2004 11:15 PM
{The script and dialect were introduced from the Near East Sumerian culture (4,000 years ago).} Thought Writes: What script and language was introduced from Sumeria and where to? IP: Logged |
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Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 21 December 2004 11:32 PM
quote: Biologically there is no such thing as racial traits since race is social and most anthropologists regard it as such: Most anthropologists regard race as a cultural concept rather than a biological reality. In the biological sciences, the term race has historically been used to describe a distinct population in which all the members share a suite of biological traits. Today, most anthropologists agree that there is no way to divide the world's human population in the cut-and-dry manner that the definition of race traditionally requires. ...A forensic anthropologist must extract as much information as possible to assist in the identification of an individual. Part of that job requires identifying that individual's ancestral phenotype. Ancestral phenotypes are suites of traits that are associated with geographic populations. At first, this sounds a lot like a synonym for race; however, the difference lies in the lack of distinct divisions. The task simply relies on the idea that any given individual may have characteristics known to be common in a particular geographic area. Also the Human Genome Project proves that when traditional racial classifications are used (Caucasoid, Mongoloid and Negroid) many (if not most) populations are intermediate.
quote: [This message has been edited by Orionix (edited 21 December 2004).] IP: Logged |
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Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 21 December 2004 11:38 PM
{You cannot even compare them with modern humans!} Thought Writes: You do realize that Cro-Magnons ARE anatomically modern? Thought Writes: Source please? IP: Logged |
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Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 21 December 2004 11:40 PM
quote: Thought Writes: You are correct Ausar. Of course not all Africans (Blacks) are Negroid nor are all Negroids African. IP: Logged |
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Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 21 December 2004 11:47 PM
quote: Thought Writes: Thought Writes: Race is a social construct, however phenotypic traits based upon genetic adaptation may be mapped via the use of locus-specific measurements. Natural selection may act on different alleles to produce a similar adaptive phenotype in populations. IP: Logged |
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Orionix Member Posts: 513 |
posted 21 December 2004 11:54 PM
quote: Yes mainly but not completely. Source please? Fossil Hominids: Cro-Magnon Man IP: Logged |
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supercar Junior Member Posts: |
posted 21 December 2004 11:56 PM
quote: What are you referring to "Negroid" here? IP: Logged |
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Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 22 December 2004 12:01 AM
quote: Thought Writes: I apologize, I am not certain what you are asking Supercar? IP: Logged |
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supercar Junior Member Posts: |
posted 22 December 2004 12:06 AM
Ausur said:
quote:
quote: That is why I asked you, Thought, what you were referring to as “Negroid”. What constitutes that terminology? IP: Logged |
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Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 22 December 2004 12:06 AM
Thought Wrote: You do realize that Cro-Magnons ARE anatomically modern? Orionox Wrote: Yes mainly but not completely. Thought Writes: Source? Orionox Wrote: Their brain was about 4% larger than the modern human Thought Writes: Of course “Cro-Magnons” were diverse and did not represent a single taxonomy or culture. Hence “Cro-Magnons” as a group would NOT have brains about 4% larger than the modern humans. Thought Posts: “The term 'Cro-Magnon' has no formal taxonomic status, since it refers neither to a species or subspecies nor to an archaeological phase or culture.” IP: Logged |
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Thought2 Member Posts: 978 |
posted 22 December 2004 12:11 AM
quote: Thought Writes: Gottcha, let me preface my comment by stating that I do not use the term. However, within the context of this sort of discussion I interpret it to mean the stereotypical "True Negro" or "Broad African" type, following Keita. There is no precise or technical use for this term. IP: Logged |
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