posted 01 January 2005 10:09 PM            

Some connections that are made are....

The pyramids of the Olmecs and west africans...

Cocaine found in mummies....

And some think that the land of Punt during Hatshepsput's time might have referred to the New world trade.

Any insight on this??

posted 01 January 2005 10:49 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by anacalypsis:
I have seen documentaries and read findings showing a kemetian connection to Mesoamerica, any truth to this?????

Some connections that are made are....

The pyramids of the Olmecs and west africans...

Cocaine found in mummies....

And some think that the land of Punt during Hatshepsput's time might have referred to the New world trade.

Any insight on this??

Thanks

---

I hope this doesn't open another can of worms, as we've been through this before, about possible African presence in Mesoamerica. While it is possible that Africans have reached the shores of Mesoamerica at some point in time, more concrete evidence is needed to come to a solid conclusion. An interesting elephant craft was found in the Olmec museum, but various self-proclaimed inheritors of this civilization claim that this amounts to nothing much, for it could have been a representation of an extinct wooly elephant-type creature that used to dwell in parts of the American landscape. The elephant figure itself, doesn't show any signs of hair on its body. Then there is the Mastodon, another elephant-like creature. Some even go as far as calling the sculpture a "mouse".Interestingly, this sculpture eventually disappeared from public view. In any case, it isn't in the invested interest of Africans to claim any ownership of this civilization. Africans have their own ancient civilizations to be proud of.

posted 01 January 2005 11:01 PM            

quote:

---

sunstorm2004:
A whole thread on the subject, complete with the views of a meso-american ...
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/000681.html

---

posted 01 January 2005 11:16 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by anacalypsis:
I have seen documentaries and read findings showing a kemetian connection to Mesoamerica, any truth to this?????

Some connections that are made are....

The pyramids of the Olmecs and west africans...

Cocaine found in mummies....

And some think that the land of Punt during Hatshepsput's time might have referred to the New world trade.

Any insight on this??

Thanks

---

I myself have also seen a documentary, referring to the cocaine found in the mummy of Rameses ll, I think it was!

I also have heard, and read some info about the Olmecs and the presence of West Africans, in the Americas.

So there may well be a connection, but until more evidence is uncovered to support this theory, or claim!

posted 02 January 2005 12:37 AM            

quote:

---

I have seen documentaries and read findings showing a kemetian connection to Mesoamerica, any truth to this?????

Some connections that are made are....

The pyramids of the Olmecs and west africans...

Cocaine found in mummies....

And some think that the land of Punt during Hatshepsput's time might have referred to the New world trade.

Any insight on this??

Thanks

---

This is why I don't recommend getting your complete information from documentaries. Much more reliable information can be found in Journals and books, and I know that many of these are not that easily acessiable to the general public.

Many scholars in the past have tried to play diffusionist with ancient Egypt,and try to make it seem ancient Egyptians founded every human civlization on this globe. You have to be very carefrul finding small details like pyramids,because the design of the pyramid is fairly universal due to it's simplicity.

Plus chemical traces dones on the mummies would find narcotics like cocaine because lotus that was sniffed by Egyptians left similar traces. Many people have ruled cocaine out of the possible chemical traces.

Personally, I am skeptical of pressence of ancient Egyptians in the Americas.

I don't rule out the possibility that maybe other cultures made it to the new world,but not the Egyptians. Maybe some Egyptian influence found it's way into the Americas indirectly through Phonecian traders. Since a large part of Phonecian culture was Egyptinized,but I seriously doubt direct contact between the Americas and Egypt.

The Meso-American pyramids served a different purpose than the ancient Egyptian ones. Most were built above caves, and if you observe the cosmological function of both you will see how different they really were.

posted 02 January 2005 07:09 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

I don't rule out the possibility that maybe other cultures made it to the new world,but not the Egyptians. Maybe some Egyptian influence found it's way into the Americas indirectly through Phonecian traders. Since a large part of Phonecian culture was Egyptinized,but I seriously doubt direct contact between the Americas and Egypt.

The Meso-American pyramids served a different purpose than the ancient Egyptian ones. Most were built above caves, and if you observe the cosmological function of both you will see how different they really were.

---

I see your point. I mean, as the others have also stated, nothing short of iron clad proof would ever change the minds of non african anthropologists that hold most of black africa in serious contempt.

But honestly, i am not a afro-centrist, and personally do not like the idea (liken it to reverse racism=eurocentrism). However, I have read the work of Van Sertima, who taught at my sister school, and i must say that he brings up sooo many interesting points that it definitely raises some compelling questions about weather the meso americans were alone.

I have read more articles on this alleged connection and some scholars make the connection with the mande tribes of west africa and not directly to the Egyptians themselves.

posted 02 January 2005 12:47 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by lamin:
But those giant Olmec heads with helmets still puzzle me. They just don't have that East Asiatic cast that Native Americans seem to have. If my memory is correct I believe I saw some photographs of figurines and carvings of persons with braided Africoid hair in Van Sertima's "They Came before Columbus". Explanations of the origins of the Olmec civilisation have been intriguing--with Hispanic(mestizos of Spanish and Native American ancestries) reacting in a rather hostile manner about the Van Sertima thesis. I also noted that a supposedly pre-Columbian Africoid female skull was found somewhere in South America--again opening up intriguing possiblities.

Regardless of the merits of the Africa-Olmec connection I get the distinct impression that the vast majority of non-black scholars in anthropology and history are rather hostile to the notions of blacks(Africans) breaking ranks from their assigned position(just above the Australian aboriginese)in the pecking order of civilisations.

---

Thought Writes:

East Asian’s originated as did all humans in Africa. Upper Paleolithic remains from Siberia have so-called “Negroid” traits. Melanesian type crania have been found through-out the America’s and have been labeled Paleoamerican. Human occupation in the America’s predates the morphological evolution of the Mongoloid type in Asia. Crania from Baja Mexico only 600 years ago seem to be linked with Melanesian types. Early Olmec dental traits were Sundadont like Melanesians. The early Olmec may have had a Black substratum. But these Blacks would have been genetically Asian and not African.

posted 02 January 2005 01:06 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

East Asian’s originated as did all humans in Africa. Upper Paleolithic remains from Siberia have so-called “Negroid” traits. Melanesian type crania have been found through-out the America’s and have been labeled Paleoamerican. Human occupation in the America’s predates the morphological evolution of the Mongoloid type in Asia. Crania from Baja Mexico only 600 years ago seem to be linked with Melanesian types. Early Olmec dental traits were Sundadont like Melanesians. The early Olmec may have had a Black substratum. But these Blacks would have been genetically Asian and not African.

---

posted 02 January 2005 05:10 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:
What about ancient art depicting elephants in the Americas. Do you think these people saw African elephants, or could there be another explanation?

---

Thought Writes:

posted 02 January 2005 05:43 PM            

My opinion is that African people should focus more on the continent of Africa instead of trying to find Africans in other people's history. I understand that there is a African pressence in some parts of the world,but our duty would be best served reserching and developing profession archaeological teams digging across African.

The sad fact is most archaeological and anthropological studies on Africa are still largely controlled by European Universites and funding.

Globalization is killing off indigenous culture in Northern,Western,Central, and Southern African countries. Each of these people have a treasure trove of ethno history and oral literature that will dimish because of historical neglect. More Africans and Diasporian Africans have to focus on these people before it's too late.

posted 02 January 2005 06:53 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Source please?

---

posted 02 January 2005 07:58 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

The sad fact is most archaeological and anthropological studies on Africa are still largely controlled by European Universites and funding.

Globalization is killing off indigenous culture in Northern,Western,Central, and Southern African countries. Each of these people have a treasure trove of ethno history and oral literature that will dimish because of historical neglect. More Africans and Diasporian Africans have to focus on these people before it's too late.

---

posted 02 January 2005 09:35 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Thought2:
[b] Thought Writes:

Source please?

---

You might also find this interesting: http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/critics.html [/B][/QUOTE]

Thought Writes:

Are you certain it is an elephant? Also, where can I find the radio-carbon dates?

posted 02 January 2005 10:20 PM            

A whole thread on the subject, complete with the views of a meso-american ...

Thought: if you review the thread in the link you will see that the best counter argument to the statue being an African elephant is that it is a picture of a Mastadon.

There were "elephants" in ice age America, but were they still around during the time of the Olmecs?

Picture of Mastodon hunt: http://encarta.msn.com/media_461543877_761555928_-1_1/Mastodon_Hunt.html

posted 02 January 2005 11:07 PM            

Even Nubia, has received a lot less study than Ancient Egypt.

The question that should be asked, is why is this happening and is this trend acceptable?

Honestly, I think the Afrocentrics are misguided and do a great deal of harm to the rest of Africa, that is purposely ignored in favor of Egypt ( A Non-Black African Culture and Civilization).

This is a sad situation, but the good news is that most of the True Objective Scientific work is being done by people who are not biased and carry no Political Agendas, i.e., non-Afrocentrics.

posted 02 January 2005 11:50 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ABAZA:
What is truly sad, is that most of the Afrocentric work has focused on Egypt, while ignoring the rest of Africa.

Even Nubia, has received a lot less study than Ancient Egypt.

The question that should be asked, is why is this happening and is this trend acceptable?

Honestly, I think the Afrocentrics are misguided and do a great deal of harm to the rest of Africa, that is purposely ignored in favor of Egypt ( A Non-Black African Culture and Civilization).

This is a sad situation, but the good news is that most of the True Objective Scientific work is being done by people who are not biased and carry no Political Agendas, i.e., non-Afrocentrics.

---

By your definition, there aren’t any ancient black african civilizations, remember? By your criteria, even the ancient west and south african civilizations would not be black african. Whats funny is that your narrow definition of what's black, is the exact match of what the olmecs statues show/depict.. But, I guess you'd say that they still could not have been black in the first place, despite the match in your criteria of what a black African is.

See how your logic works??, and does not work? Not to mention the fact that you never provide any shred of proof to support your thought on this.

posted 03 January 2005 01:39 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ABAZA:
This is a sad situation, but the good news is that most of the True Objective Scientific work is being done by people who are not biased and carry no Political Agendas, i.e., non-Afrocentrics.

---

Actually, your so called "Objective" Scientific work,is in reality, being done by Eurocentrists, such as yourself ABAZA.

posted 03 January 2005 02:07 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by anacalypsis:
By your definition, there aren’t any ancient black african civilizations, remember? By your criteria, even the ancient west and south african civilizations would not be black african. Whats funny is that your narrow definition of what's black, is the exact match of what the olmecs statues show/depict.. But, I guess you'd say that they still could not have been black in the first place, despite the match in your criteria of what a black African is.

See how your logic works??, and does not work? Not to mention the fact that you never provide any shred of proof to support your thought on this.

---

Very True! You would think, when it comes to this particular subject. ABAZA would be leading the pack in agreement with Van Sertima's conclusions. Since the Olmec Heads represent and convey to his simplistic view of what is Negroid(Black African)!

posted 03 January 2005 07:21 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ABAZA:
What is truly sad, is that most of the Afrocentric work has focused on Egypt, while ignoring the rest of Africa.

Even Nubia, has received a lot less study than Ancient Egypt.

The question that should be asked, is why is this happening and is this trend acceptable?

Honestly, I think the Afrocentrics are misguided and do a great deal of harm to the rest of Africa, that is purposely ignored in favor of Egypt ( A Non-Black African Culture and Civilization).

This is a sad situation, but the good news is that most of the True Objective Scientific work is being done by people who are not biased and carry no Political Agendas, i.e., non-Afrocentrics.

---

quote:

---

By your definition, there aren’t any ancient black african civilizations, remember?

---

posted 03 January 2005 07:28 AM            

alTakuri wrote:

quote:

---

Since Cheikh Anta Diop challenged Africans 50 years ago to develop
a multidisciplinary approach to African historiography, African
American and francophone Africans have established the independent
school.

Their latest triumph is the international recognition of the
independent African invention of ferrous metallurgy of a
technology unknown outside the continent and beginning some
4000 years ago in Egaro Niger thus not only pre dating Anatolian
iron smelting but producing both carbon steel and iron from the
same kilning by direct reduction not smelting.

---

Question, please give us a list of works by African scholars that you have actually read or are familiar with. You appear to offer a series of biased statements in lieu of informed opinion.

We think you are clueless and therefore not qualified to assess the works of scholars whom you in fact, have never read.

Thank you.

posted 03 January 2005 08:46 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Are you certain it is an elephant? Also, where can I find the radio-carbon dates?

---

I'd put my money on this being an elephant:

posted 03 January 2005 09:04 AM            

The Scientific Existence of African People

I deliberately did not title this article "African Contributions to Science". The word contribution is couched in a western value-system that suggests that a scientific feat can only be considered a contribution if the domain of its effect is world-wide, and if it has significant commercial value. Africans like many other civilizations - the Mayas - the Incas - the Chinese - used what is known today as "science" to further an understanding of their existence, and to develop various implements for use in their daily lives. It is important to note that in the past, African scientific genius was not individual, but rather communal in nature. As a result, there were no journal publications or patents - western symbols of individual ownership. A comprehensive unbiased history of science, however, will inevitably shed light on the scientific genius of African societies. Note also, I am not suggesting that Africans were the only ones with scientific genius. Instead, my aim is to counter the subtle and not so subtle agenda, which through omision of African references in science text, continues to perpetuate a belief that African societies had little to do with science. Need I remind you of the Pyramids?
One professor of anthropology and engineering announced to the world, that Africans living on the western shores of Lake Victoria in Tanzania had produced carbon steel for centuries. An astronomical observatory which was uncovered in Kenya was dated 300 years BC. The Dogon people in the highlands of Mali have known and understood the Sirius star system for centuries, and were aware of the small dark star Sirius B (invisible to the naked eye) which orbits Sirius A every 60 years. The Dogon people have an elaborate ceremony once every sixty years to coincide with the completion of an orbit of Sirius B. Western astronomers, who only discovered Sirius B very recently, dismiss the Dogon knowledge as mere coincidence.

The astronomical knowledge of many African societies (Egyptians, the Dogons, the Yorubas, etc.) was accompanied by a complex mathematical system. Further, the trading nature of Africans required the existence of a numbering system. Evidence of the use of a numbering system in Africa was found on a bone 8000 yrs. old. The Yorubas have a mathematical system which would baffle most mathematicians.

In navigation, Africans built many sophisticated vessels for traveling the Nile and Niger river. These vessels were used to carry out trade between the several empires: between the west coast and Lake Chad, between Mali and the Songhay empires, between Jenné and Timbuktu. The Chinese recorded Africans coming to the Court of China with elephants in such vessels in the thirteenth century. There is evidence that African navigational ingenuity brought them to the Americas before Columbus.

There were other African feats in agricultural science, writing systems, and of course, medical science. The Egyptian Imhotep is the first known medical doctor. African plant medicine involved a complex body of knowledge related to the diagnosis of diseases, anesthetics, antiseptics, and vaccination. African doctors were also well-versed in surgical procedures and techniques. The Bantu used the bark of a plant Salix Capensis to treat musculoskeletal pains. This family of plants yielded salicylic acid the active ingredient in aspirin. In Mali, an effective cure for diarrhea used kaolin, the active ingredient in Kaopectate. African doctors also pioneered the use of herbal treatments in the treatment of psychosis. Many of the herbs used contained tranquilizers. African medical practice have always emphasized holism as a philosophy. Western medicine only now attempting to adopt this philosophy.

Closer to the Caribbean, in America, Africans have had several feats in the field of science and invention. In accordance with the saying, "necessity is the mother of invention", many enslaved Africans who were skilled artisans and craftspersons, designed implements to make their work easier. Not being recognized as humans under US law, many were unable to register and patent their inventions. Once freed, they were able to do so. At the turn of the century, an American trade exhibit in Paris wanted to feature a "Negro Exhibit". The US patent office put out a call for any information on inventions by African Americans. An overwhelming response produced some 400 inventions by more some 190 inventors. Some of these late 1800 registered patents included: lawn mower, street sweepers, car coupler, train alarm, self-setting animal trap, valves for steam engine, the golf tee, foot power hammer, bread crumbing machine, shoe lasting machine, lubricator for steam engines, fertilizer distributor, clothes drier, fire escape ladder, and a paper bag machine. Elijah McCoy, after whom the phrase "The real McCoy" is coined, had some 25 patents to his name between 1872 - 1899.

Some other well-known African American inventors in addition to Elijah McCoy, include: Lewis Latimer who developed production techniques for making carbon filaments for bulbs, and designed a cotton filament that made it possible to bring electric light to homes. Latimer also drew the plans for Alexander Graham Bell’s telephone. Garrett Morgan invented the first automatic street light and a smoke inhalator for safety in fire fighting. Norbert Rillieux, born enslaved in Louisiana, patented a process which revolutionized sugar processing. Granville Woods invented a railway induction telegraph system which reduced the number of train collisions. Lewis Temple, a blacksmith in Massachusetts, designed a moving head harpoon which revolutionized the whaling industry.

As we move up in time, many scientific feats are being performed by Africans all over the globe, even as we speak, Africans are involved with all of the pure sciences, space technology, energy systems, and engineering. This is not to say that other societies are not involved in the field of science, but rather to dispel the myth that Africans operate on the periphery rather than at the heart of the scientific world. Space limitation does not allow a lenthy exposé of Africans in Science. For the reader who wants to know more, I recommend the book Blacks in Science: Ancient and Modern, edited by Ivan Van Sertima, http://husky1.stmarys.ca/~hmillar/Afrsci.htm

In Ivan Van Sertima's (1984) book Blacks in Science: Ancient and Modern, countless examples of African science from articles by several different authors are given. A few examples are listed below:

1. The Dogon of Mali had an excellent understanding of the solar system and the universe 700 years ago. The Dogon had detailed knowledge of a white dwarf companion star to Sirius A which was not visible to the naked eye. Western scientists stated that there was no way that the Dogon could have uncovered this knowledge on their own and that it must have been supplied to them by a visiting European or an extra- terrestrial visitor.

2. The Yoruba tribe had an exceedingly complex number system based on twenty.

3. A 35,000 year old, fossilized baboon bone found in Zaire, the Ishango bone, is covered with a series of notches or tally marks, which makes it the oldest mathematical object in the world, and the world's earliest number system. The bone is also a lunar phase counter, which suggest that African women were the first mathematicians since keeping track of menstrual cycles requires a lunar calendar.

4. There was a very accurate calendar system in Eastern Africa by the first millenium B.C. (Lynch & Robbins 1984).

5. A megalithic site similar to stonehenge dating to 300 B.C. was found in northwest Kenya. Its nineteen basalt pillars were aligned extremely accurately with the stars and constellations (Lynch & Robbins 1984).

6. A model of a glider dated to the 4th or 3rd century B.C. was found in Egypt. The structure of the object was most definitely aerodynamically designed (Messiha et al. 1984).

7. An iron-ore mine in Swaziland, the oldest found in the world, was dated as 43,000 years old. The ore specularite was used as a cosmetic and pigment (Zaslavsky 1984).

8. Africans developed technology to build sea-worthy boats and the ability to navigate over long expanses of ocean . There is ample evidence to suggest that African explorers reached South and Central America long before Columbus made his journeys (Malloy 1984).

9. 1500 to 2000 years ago near Lake Victoria, carbon steel was made in blast furnaces. The temperature achieved in the furnaces, 1,800C, was much higher than was managed in Europe until modern times (Van Sertima 1984).

10. By the year 1000 AD, in the Middle East, Ibn al-Haytham, a Muslim mathematician and astronomer, was studying atmospheric refraction, and by the 1100s a fellow Muslim, geographer Abu Abdallah Muhammad al-Idrisi, divided the world into seven climatic zones. Climate changes have long since tuned vast savannas and grasslands bodering Africa’s Sahara into desert. Translations of Arabic texts into Latin help spread knowledge of such instruments as the astrolobe.History of Mathamatics in Africa: http://www.saxakali.com/COLOR_ASP/historymaf.htm

posted 03 January 2005 09:11 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Case in point...in case someone did not get the point.

The Scientific Existence of African People

---

Thanks Rasol, iteresting reading indeed.

Do you know of any good and credible documentaries/books, that covers the possibility of Africans in early america (other than VSertima)??

posted 03 January 2005 09:22 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kem-Au:
I'd put my money on this being an elephant:

As far as radio-carbon dates, I'm not sure. I was just wondering if you we familiar with the elephant.

---

I'm with Kem-Au on that one!

Besides, I also read that according to the oral traditions of the mesoamericans, they themselves believed that black faced men came in boats across seas and settled amongst them??

posted 03 January 2005 09:52 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by anacalypsis:
Thanks Rasol, iteresting reading indeed.

Do you know of any good and credible documentaries/books, that covers the possibility of Africans in early america (other than VSertima)??

---

If you can find Von Wuthenau's Unexpected Faces you'll find
plenty of evidence from art pieces made by the original Americans
where they depict Africans, Europeans, and
Pacific Asians. There
are Olmec heads which clearly look of Chinese type.

The terra cotta figures the Central and South Americans bequeathed
us is much better evidence than the few stone heads anyway.
Most of the heads look native American to me but the terra cottas
are lifelike and unmistakeable in their representation. No
intimation of BCE contact but definate medieval CE West
African types which better fit Mande data that all can agree on
instead of just the solo maveric innovation
which will need a lot
more proofs before it can be widely accepted.

You'll need even more luck trying to find Africa and the Discovery of
America by Weiner whose outlook is certainly dated and whose three
volumes are more for the specialist than for the casual reader.

Best bet is to buy Van Sertimas Ancient America Revisited and
or African Presence in Ancient America with the contributions
of varied authors.

posted 03 January 2005 10:01 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

If you can find Von Wuthenau's Unexpected Faces you'll find
plenty of evidence from art pieces made by the original Americans
where they depict Africans, Europeans, and
Pacific Asians. There
are Olmec heads which clearly look of Chinese type.

---

Thought Writes:

by looking at Von Wuthenau's artifacts how would one differentiate between indigenous paleoindians (melanesean type) and Africans or indigenous mongoloid types and Chinese?

posted 03 January 2005 10:02 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

There are Olmec heads which clearly look of Chinese type.

---

Really, I have never seen those. I have read VSertima's Before Columbus book and do not recall seeing any chinese type Olmecs.

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

The terra cotta figures the Central and South Americans bequeathed
us is much better evidence than the few stone heads anyway.
Most of the heads look native American to me but the terra cottas
are lifelike and unmistakeable in their representation.

---

posted 03 January 2005 10:06 PM            

****Using discriminant function analysis, Spirit Cave fell in the area of overlap between Amerindians and African Americans, while the other fossil crania had a higher probability Amerindian classification.****

posted 03 January 2005 10:46 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by anacalypsis:
Do you have any pics of these?? Please share.. Thanks

---

You have to get the book. I doubt if the stuff is on the web.
Try interlibrary loan. Its always good to have a friend of the
library ID to the university library nearest you.

posted 03 January 2005 11:39 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by supercar:
I must say, looking back at that thread now, some the things said just cracks me up!

---

Sorry to go backwards, but revisiting old posts on this subject, Xicanconnection was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off with this analogy in my opinion...

posted 04 January 2005 12:14 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by anacalypsis:
Sorry to go backwards, but revisiting old posts on this subject, Xicanconnection was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off with this analogy in my opinion...

---

Interesting link. It does provide an interesting case, concerning phenotypical relationship between the Olmec Heads and contemporary Mesoamericans.

Here is an interesting link that I provided earlier, in that same thread referenced above. It gives a more broader look at Olmec sculptures:
Blacks of America before Columbus

Xicanconnection appeared to be struggling with making a solid case against any African affiliation with ancient MesoAmerica, in the face of information about some African-type plant(s) that found their way to MesoAmerica, excerpts of Van Sertima's answers to his critics, the elephant sculpture, and a case made about connections between Proto-Saharan and MesoAmerican script. It boiled down to whether the said Elephant depictions were influenced by knowledge passed on by invaders, or knowledge passed on from a very distant past, when the Mammoth-like creatures and Mastodons were around. Time gap became a key issue here, which in my opinion, still hasn't been addressed. Nevertheless, the Mastodons became a more compelling case for symbolic depictions of Elephants in Olmec art, considering that no elephants live in that part of the world. Good topic; I certainly learnt some new stuff from that discussion.

posted 04 January 2005 06:58 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by supercar:
Interesting link. It does provide an interesting case, concerning phenotypical relationship between the Olmec Heads and contemporary Mesoamericans.

Here is an interesting link that I provided earlier, in that same thread referenced above. It gives a more broader look at Olmec sculptures:
[b]Blacks of America before Columbus

Xicanconnection initially appeared to be struggling with making a solid case against any African affiliation with ancient MesoAmerica, in the face of information about some alleged African-type plant(s)that found their way to MesoAmerica, excerpts of Van Sertima's answers to his critics, the elephant sculpture, and a case made about connections between Proto-Saharan and MesoAmerican script. It boiled down to whether the said Elephant depictions were influenced by knowledge passed on by invaders, or knowledge passed on from a very distant past, when the Mammoth-like creatures and Mastodons were around. Time gap became a key issue here, which in my opinion, still hasn't been addressed. Nevertheless, the Mastodons became a more compelling case for symbolic depictions of Elephants in Olmec art, considering that no elephants live in that part of the world. Good topic; I certainly learnt some new stuff from that discussion. [/B]

---

Like with everything else in reference to the Africans ancient history...the general attitude of the unenlightened populous is--if it diverts from the ill conceived Eurocentric point of views of African types--"well…we'll never know"...or..."until we have more proof, we can't be sure"...or..."the Afrocentric view is unfounded..(so lets just ignore their facts and issues, which we can't rebut anyway)".

But I agree with you though, there are compelling arguments on both sides. The truth, I am sure, is something in the middle.. But what is funny to me is that, even what many would consider stereotypically black/Negroid African, funny how it isn't when it is not convenient to be so..

posted 04 January 2005 08:05 PM            

quote:

---

anacalypsis:
Like with everything else in reference to the Africans ancient history...the general attitude of the unenlightened populous is--if it diverts from the ill conceived Eurocentric point of views of African types--"well…we'll never know"...or..."until we have more proof, we can't be sure"...or..."the Afrocentric view is unfounded..(so lets just ignore their facts and issues, which we can't rebut anyway)".

But I agree with you though, there are compelling arguments on both sides. The truth, I am sure, is something in the middle.. But what is funny to me is that, even what many would consider stereotypically black/Negroid African, funny how it isn't when it is not convenient to be so..

---

posted 04 January 2005 10:16 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by supercar:
I am not advocating that Africans are the creators of the Olmec civilization; I simply don't rule out the possibility of Africans making their way to this part of the world from earlier times. That Africans made their way early to MesoAmerica in history (without any outside assistance), is not actually in doubt. The question appears to be centered on when it first happened: there are those who argue for an earlier contact, given the clues/conditions I mentioned in my last post, while there are others (including apologists) who will only acknowledge the more recent and hence irrefutable African discovery of America, spearheaded by Mansa Musa of Mali (said to have found America before Columbus). What many fail to see is that African history, for the most part, is speculation on the part of Europeans. This is a part of the world that they've just recently started learning about, aside from Early Ancient Nile Valley contacts with Southern Europeans and the outside world. And so, it appears that Africans aren't suppose to have done anything before European arrival, despite the fact that African civilizations (aside the Nile Valley civilization) had sprung up in ancient times. History is somehow suppose to be boxed within the limits of the knowledge of European historians. The contact between the greater part of Europe and Africa is a fairly recent development. Asians have had longer contact with various African groups, than Europeans. Whatever clues are used by some scholars for making their case about earlier Afro-MesoAmerican contact, isn't 'worthy of attention' unless it is considered an all-out "concrete" evidence. Even the peopling of Africa is often ignored by various scholars, in favor of the assumption that the continent has always been as it is today. This is essential piece of information, as it gives an idea of early settlements and communal activities. Many European historians admit that they don't know much about other ancient African developments, even as attention to clues and other evidence is on the all-time low. Yet there are a lot of European myths about this continent, and it is funny how these go unchallenged against real evidence, and in the absence of 'all-out' concrete evidence. Egyptian authorities have put a system in place, so as to have a greater control in the dissemination of their history, than in the past. Many South East Asian contries had long adopted such systems. Similar attempts are being made in various other African nations, but as usual funding has continued to be a problem in some cases. Until funding and full dedication is adequately put in place by African leaders, the dissemination of their nations' history may well be outsourced to those, who expectedly have no interest in promoting history as it should be.

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posted 04 January 2005 10:19 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by supercar:
That Africans made their way early to MesoAmerica in history (without any outside assistance), is not actually in doubt. The question appears to be centered on when it first happened: there are those who argue for an earlier contact, given the clues/conditions I mentioned in my last post, while there are others (including apologists) who will only acknowledge the more recent and hence irrefutable African discovery of America, spearheaded by Mansa Musa of Mali (said to have found America before Columbus).

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Wait, are you saying that modern scholarship is in agreement wit

posted 04 January 2005 10:24 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by supercar:
That Africans made their way early to MesoAmerica in history (without any outside assistance), is not actually in doubt. The question appears to be centered on when it first happened: there are those who argue for an earlier contact, given the clues/conditions I mentioned in my last post, while there are others (including apologists) who will only acknowledge the more recent and hence irrefutable African discovery of America, spearheaded by Mansa Musa of Mali (said to have found America before Columbus).

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Wait, are you saying that modern scholarship is in agreement with the notion that the people of Mali made it to the new world before Colombus? I have not read any mainstream confirmations on this. Could you please share any sources???

Also, it was rumored that the Vikings made it to the Americas before Colombus, still fanning that torch for the European claim to first.

posted 05 January 2005 12:10 AM            

quote:

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anacalypsis:
Wait, are you saying that modern scholarship is in agreement with the notion that the people of Mali made it to the new world before Colombus? I have not read any mainstream confirmations on this. Could you please share any sources???

Also, it was rumored that the Vikings made it to the Americas before Colombus, still fanning that torch for the European claim to first.

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I don’t know what you consider “modern scholarship”, but it is has been acknowledged by many that Mansa Musa had conducted expeditions, with America being one of places they discovered. Now, the timeline of Mansa Musa (1307-1332) reign pre-dates Columbus discovery, but it is up to you to do the math and come to the logical conclusion. Moreover, I usually advice people to read what was said very carefully before jumping to any conclusion. This certainly applies to my words. As for any sources, I can only give you what I am able to find on the internet, but as always, you are more than welcome to check with your nearest local library to verify the accuracy of these sources:

Excerpt 1:

“C: ARABIC( ISLAMIC )INSCRIPTIONS:

1. Anthropologists have proven that the Mandinkos under Mansa Musa's instructions explored many parts of North America via the Mississippi and other rivers systems. At Four Corners, Arizona, writings show that they even brought elephants from Africa to the area.(7)

2. Columbus admitted in his papers that on Monday, October 21,1492 CE while his ship was sailing near Gibara on the north-east coast of Cuba, he saw a mosque on top of a beautiful mountain. The ruins of mosques and minarets with inscriptions of Quranic verses have been discovered in Cuba,Mexico,Texas and Nevada. (8)

3. During his second voyage, Columbus was told by the indians of ESPANOLA (Haiti), that black people had been to the island before his arrival. For proof, they presented Columbus with the spears of these African muslims. These weapons were tipped with a yellow metal that the indians called GUANIN, a word of West African derivation meaning 'gold alloy'. Oddly enough, it is related to the Arabic word 'GHINAA' which means 'WEALTH'. Columbus brought some GUANINES back to Spain and had them tested. He learned that the metal was 18 parts gold (56.25%), 6 parts silver (18.75%) and 8 parts copper (25%), the same ratio as the metal produced in African metalshops of Guinea. (14)”
   

Source: America Discovered, by Dr. Youssef Mroueh.

Excerpt 2:

A relative, Abu Bakar the II, decided to find a way by sea to go to Mecca. Abu Bakar II is said to be Mansa Musa’s uncle. In 1324 while visiting Cairo, Mansa Musa reported how he became the King of Mali. He explained that he became King of Mali, his predecessor, Abu Bakar II (who belonged to the senior branch of the ruling family), decided to sail in order to discover what lies behind the Ocean, he had never come back .What Mansa Musa (who belongs to the Junior branch of the ruling family) said, then, was recorded by Ibn Amir Adjib, Governor of Cairo and Karafa. Abu Bakar and his maritime expedition left the shores of Senegal and sailed in the Atlantic Ocean. They encountered so much difficulties and challenges that they came back to Senegal. Abu Bakar reorganized his expedition, took enough provisions and a huge army with him. This expedition has never been seen again. Today, there is a strong historical evidence pointing to the possibility that this Malian prince was the first one to discover America. In Brazil for instance, there is a presence of the mandinka language, traditions and customs.

Source: History of Timbuktu, from Timbuktu Foundation.org

Excerpt 3:

Some Atlantic crossings by Africans departed Muslim Spain between 929–961 and others, probably Mandinkas (Mandingos), sailed from the Guinea coast in the 14 century, during the time of Mansa Musa. These explorations have been reported in Muhammedan writings. See Ivan Van Sertima’s [i]They Came before Columbus (1976) and Alexander von Wuthenau’s Unexpected Faces in Ancient Africa, 1500 BC–AD 1500 (1975). For further information consult Carter G. Woodson, The Story of the Negro Retold (Washington, DC, 1942); Justin Winsor, Critical History of America (Boston, 1884-1889; W.E.B. DuBois, The Gift of Black Folk (Boston, 1924), pp. 35-51; Roland B. Dixon, Racial History of Man (New York, 1923), pp. 393-406, 436-451 and 459; J.B. Thatcher, Christopher Columbus, Vol. 2 (New York, 1903-1904), pp. 379-380; J. McCabe, The Splendor of Moorish Spain (London, 1935), pp. 179-202; A. Quatrefages, Introduction a l'étude des races humaines (Paris, 1889), p. 406; Leo Wiener, Africa and the Discovery of America, Vol. 1 (Chicago, 1922), pp. 169-170, 172, 174, 175 and Vol. 3, pp. 225-261, 264-266, 314-322; Harold Lawrence, "African Explorers in the New World," Crisis, 1962, pp. 321-332; N. Leon, História géneral de México (México, 1919), p. 14; Carter G. Woodson, African Background Outlined (Washington, DC, 1936), pp. 3-19; Almose A. Thompson, "Pre-Columbian Black Presence in the Western Hemisphere," Negro History Bulletin, 1975, pp. 452-456; James Churchward, The Lost Continent of Mu (New York, 1968-1969).[/i]

Source:Your History Online II, including additional reading recommendation from a public library, from Hierographics.org.

More reading from Amazon.com: The Lost Treasure of King Juba: The Evidence of Africans in America before Columbus, by Frank Joseph.

Dawn Voyage: The Black African Discovery of America , by Michael Bradley

Islam in the African-American Experience by Richard Brent-“Covers a lot of ground -- Mansa Musa of Mali & Abu Bakari, Duse Muhammad Ali, Noble Dru Ali, Master Fard Muhammad, Elijah Muhammad, W D Muhammad, Imaam Isa of the Ansaar Nubian Islamic Hebrews, etc.”

Excerpt 4:
“Contrary to all traditional European accounts of the "discovery" of America, which put the Vikings in first place followed by Columbus, overwhelming anthropological evidence places Africans in the Americas since the 9th century. In 1975 the inscriptions on three stones found in Quebec, which had been lying in a museum for some 50 years, were finally deciphered by Professor Howard Fell.

These Boustrophedon inscriptions read: "Expedition that crossed in the service of Lord Hiram to conquer the territory;" "Record by Hata, who attained this limit on the river, moored his ship and engraved this rock;" "Hanno, son of Tamu, reached this mountain landmark." According to Laval University Professor Thomas Lee, these people came from North Africa some 500 years B.C. He thinks this expedition reached the Sherbrooke area by sailing up the St. Francis River which empties into the St. Lawrence southwest of Trois Rivieres.

This is believed to be one of two expeditions by North Africans, the other one landing in Yucatan. Archealogical excavation in Mexico in the 1860s found evidence such as the "Cabeza Colosal." According to an inscription on a nearby stone associated with it, it was carved 1,783 years before the arrival of Columbus. Experts agree that it was the work of Africans or people under their direct influence.

The fact that traditional accounts ignore the African contribution to pre-Columbian America illustrates the eurocentric version of history taught in our schools and with which our culture is imbued. This outlook seeks to show that Europe was the pinnacle of civilization, discoveries and progress and, by virtue of the same, that European cultures and "races" were (and are) the most advanced. In fact, Africans knew the world was a sphere long before the Europeans. Towards the middle of the 12th century, a North African scientist, El Idrisi, wrote, "What results from the opinion of philosophers, learned men, and those skilled in observation of the heavenly bodies, is that the world is as round as a sphere, of which the waters are adherent and maintained upon its surface by natural equilibrium.

African historians such as Abulfeda who lived in the late 13th and early 14th centuries, had been teaching students that the world was round and that ships had circumnavigated it. The noted African scholar Al Omari, published a book in the 1340s, which recounted that people from the Mali Empire had crossed the Atlantic Ocean and reached America during the reign of the great Mansa Musa (c. 1312-1334) whose empire was the size of present-day Europe.”

Source: Shunpikin Online, reprinted from “Youth Today, Vol. 2, No.2, February 1996. In 1996, Sandra L. Smith, presently the National Leader of the Communist Party of Canada (Marxist-Leninist), was the project co-ordinator for Youth Today.”

…And I am sure you can do your own research on this, and come to your own conclusions. However, it is well known that Mansa Musa expeditions led to their discovery of America(s).

posted 05 January 2005 06:16 PM            

While cognizant that there were voyages, whether intentional or
accidental across the Atlantic to the Americas by various Old
World peoples, I remain skeptical of unsubstantiated claims.
Claims that tend to detract and serve to undermine verifed and
verifiable accomplishments of African peoples their cultures,
civilization, and history, particularly the West African empires
of Mali and Songhai whose outlying provinces where the ones
involved in trans-Atlantic ventures.

I consider supposed explorations of the Americas ordered by
Mansa Musa as spurious, lacking any documentation. Without
doubt it was Bubakari II who was interested in trans-Atlantic
exploration. He himself sailed toward the Americas but we lack
any report of his findings because he was never heard of again
or the government of the extensive Mali empire decided to keep
silence on the matter, something not unusual where trade is
involved.

The failure of the early 14th century emperor to return home is
what led to Mansa Gonga Musa assuming leadership. This is
his account of those events as he related in Cairo while on hajj
to Mecca

quote:

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Says ibn Amir Hajib
“I asked the Sultan Musa how it was that power came into
his hands. ‘We are from a house that transmits power by
heritage,’ he told me. ‘The ruler who preceded me would
not believe that it was impossible to discover the limits of
the neighbouring sea. He wanted to find out and persisted
in his plans. He had 200 ships equipped and filled them
with men, and the same number of ships filled with gold,
water and supplies in sufficient quantities to last for years.
He told those who commanded them: return only when
you have reached the extremity of the ocean or when you
have exhausted your food and water. They went away; their
absence was long before any of them returned. Finally, a
sole ship reappeared. We asked the captain about their
adventure.

Prince, he replied, we sailed for a long time when we
encountered in mid-ocean something like a river with
violent current. My ship was last. The others sailed on,
gradually each entered this place, they disappeared
and did not come back. As for me, I returned to where
I was and did not enter that current.

But the emperor did not want to believe him. He equipped
2,000 more vessels and conferred power on me and left
with his companion on the ocean. This was the last time I
saw him and the others, and I remained absolute master
of the empire”.

Shihab al-Din ibn Fadi al-Umari
Gaudefroy-Demombynes (trans
Masilik el Absar
Paris: Librarie Orientaliste Paul Guenther, 1927
74-5

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There‘s evidence of nongovernmental directed trade between
West Africa and the Caribbean region, it‘s historic, linguistic, and
metallurgical. The word for a gold alloy sold in Hispaniola was the
same as that in Guinea.

quote:

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"...he [Columbus] thought to investigate the report of the Indians
of this Espanola (Haiti) who said that there had come to
Espanola from the south and south-east a black people who
have the tops of their spears made of a metal which they
call 'guanin' of which he had sent samples to the Sovereigns
to have them assayed, when it was found that of 32 parts 18
were of gold 6 of silver and 8 of copper."

J. Batalha Reis
Supposed Discovery of South America before 1488 and the
Critical Methods of the Historians of Geographical Discovery
Geographical Journal, Royal Geographical Society 9.2 1897
p 205 quoting from
Raccolta de Documenti e Studi, Parte I, Vol. I, Scritti de Colombo p. 96

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This guanin is precisely the same word kanine in Kono, a language
spoken in Guinea. Variations of kanine pervade Mande languages
and ultimately derives from Ghana the West African empire that was
world reknowned for its gold trade. This gold alloy that included silver
and copper was recorded by William Bosmanin A New and Accurate
Description of the Coast of Guinea London, 1705, pp 73, 74.

Columbus mention of the black traders of guanin accompanies an
intent to prove a notion by a king Dom Jaoa II of Portugal who was
certain there was land southwest of Cabo Verde because of merchandise
laden Guinean shippers seen heading in that direction in the 1480‘s,
well before Columbus ever ventured to the Americas. When Columbus
first applied to Portugal in 1484 its ruler told him that lands over 1500
miles west of Cape Verde were already claimed by Portugal. The
Andrea Biancho map of 1448 shows that land writing an "authentic
island is distant 1500 miles to the west." It looks like northeastern
Brazil which is actually more like 2300 miles southwest of Cape Verde.

Another trade item intimately tied into African and Middle American
economics was strips of cloth woven from the seeds of the silk cotton
tree. Columbus wrote of this almaizar cloth

quote:

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"... handerchiefs of cotton, very symmetrically woven and
worked in colors like those brought from Guinea, from the rivers of
Sierra Leone, and of no difference."

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These things are well documented and of certain surety unlike stray
single mentions of elephants in Arizona or minaretted masjids in
Mexico, Texas, and Nevada, which I rule out until referenced by
primary citations with quotes.

Trade involves goods from at least two terminals. What made it worth
the West Africans efforts to trade with Middle Americans? I mean what
went from the Americas to West Africa? This is an area for students and
scholars of Africana studies to look into. It will further bolster the already
existant evidence of pre Luso-Hispanic trans-Atlantic West African/Middle
American trade.