posted 20 January 2005 10:33 AM            

Supposedly the Papyrus of Hunefer is currently at the London Museum, and comments on the origins of the Kemetians:

"we came from the beginning of the Nile were God Hapi dwells, at the foothills of the Mountains of the Moon" [Great Lakes Region - central Africa]

Accurate translation?

posted 20 January 2005 11:26 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Anyone have information on these documents?

Supposedly the Papyrus of Hunefer is currently at the London Museum, and comments on the origins of the Kemetians:

"we came from the beginning of the Nile were God Hapi dwells, at the foothills of the Mountains of the Moon" [Great Lakes Region - central Africa]

Accurate translation?

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posted 20 January 2005 01:44 PM            

quote:

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rasol writes:
Anyone have information on these documents?
Supposedly the Papyrus of Hunefer is currently at the London Museum, and comments on the origins of the Kemetians:
"we came from the beginning of the Nile were God Hapi dwells, at the foothills of the Mountains of the Moon" [Great Lakes Region - central Africa]
Accurate translation?

---

Are you talking about the Papyrus of Hunefer which is the same as that of Ani, or in other words the "Book of the Dead"?

In any case, it is consistent with every thing we know from the Mdu Nter. It may surprise a few, but Egyptology has always maintained the southern African origins of the Ancient Egyptians. (Which explains why a handful of latter-day racist mavericks concocted the 'Hamitic' myth)

Here is EW Budge's account of the origins of the Ancient Egyptian language, and consequently the Ancient Egyptians themselves:

quote:

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It is impossible for me to believe that Egyptian is a Semitic language fundamentally. There are a very large number of words that are not Semitic and were never invented by a Semitic people. These words were invented by one of the oldest African people of the Nile valley of whose written language we have any remains. Their home lay far to the south, and all that we know of Predynastic Egypt suggests that it was in the neighborhood of the **Great Lakes.
EW Budge, Hieroglyphic Dictionary, Dover, 1920

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It isn't just in the text of Hunefer, but in the vocabulary of the language when referring to these southern African regions as:
"Land of the beginning"
"Land of our beginnings"
"Land of the ancestors"
"Land of the founders"
"The Holy land"
etc., etc. --from the beginning to the end of Ancient Egyptian civilization.
...
**geographical location of the "Mountains of the Moon"

posted 20 January 2005 01:53 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Wally:
09 December 2004
It is human nature, quite simply, that whenever anyone does not want to examine critical evidence (in this case; the ethnicity of the Ancient Egyptians), it is out of fear that one's preconceived notions may have to be changed. They would much rather change the subject. You can do a case study of this phenomena on this site alone!

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posted 20 January 2005 01:54 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wally:
It isn't just in the text of Hunefer, but in the vocabulary of the language when referring to these southern African regions as:
"Land of the beginning"
"Land of our beginnings"
"Land of the ancestors"
"Land of the founders"
"The Holy land"
etc., etc. --from the beginning to the end of Ancient Egyptian civilization.
...
**geographical location of the "Mountains of the Moon"

---

posted 20 January 2005 01:56 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
I'm just wondering what specific passage is actually being translated: "we came from the beginning of the Nile were God Hapi dwells," etc.. Is that 'from' the Book of the Dead?

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posted 20 January 2005 02:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Anyone have information on these documents?

Supposedly the Papyrus of Hunefer is currently at the London Museum, and comments on the origins of the Kemetians:

"we came from the beginning of the Nile were God Hapi dwells, at the foothills of the Mountains of the Moon" [Great Lakes Region - central Africa]

Accurate translation?

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 20 January 2005).]

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There is no such text as quoted. Nobody but one person has ever
claimed to have seen it and when called on it was unable to produce
it for others to view, hence being nonreplicable it has no scientific
value. When this anecdote first surfaced in 1986 the supposed
document was said to be in the library of
Syracuse University in
New York.

We must be exacting and critical of evidence demanding documentation
even from respected authorities not accepting anything just on their word.

posted 20 January 2005 02:18 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

There is no such text as quoted. Nobody but one person has ever
claimed to have seen it and when called on it was unable to produce
it for others to view, hence being nonreplicable it has no scientific
value. When this anecdote first surfaced in 1986 the supposed
document was said to be in the library of
Syracuse University in
New York.

We must be exacting and critical of evidence demanding documentation
even from respected authorities not accepting anything just on their word.

---

posted 20 January 2005 07:35 PM            

The Edfu text is claimed to have been a real text about metal smiths coming from the south establishing a colony in Egypt. Some scholars have attested to this document being authenic;while others claim it was simply profaganda by Ptolemic era priests in Egypt over a land dispute around Aswan. I am not sure about the Papyrus of Hunefer,but I believe Dr. Ben quoted it.

alTakruri, what is your comment on Dr. Ben's quotation of the Papyrus of Hunefer in his book?

posted 21 January 2005 12:35 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:

I am not sure about the Papyrus of Hunefer,but I believe Dr. Ben quoted it.

alTakruri, what is your comment on Dr. Ben's quotation of the Papyrus of Hunifer in his book?

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I gave my opinion already.

Doc Ben has dozens of books which one and which page do you mean?
I think I remember this Mountains of the Moon "quote" from Black
Man of the Nile and his Family. Then again he uses it in a speech
before the Minority Ethnic Unit of the Greater London Council.

Has anyone but anyone ever properly cited the
quoted text under
question? The Papyrus of Hu-nefer (British Museum number 9901)
is written in hieroglyphic not hieratic. When researchers scour the
supposed source they can’t seem to find the questioned quote
which makes a collective historical statement concerning all Kmtyw
even though the scroll itself is an individualistic and very personal
afterlife religious text.

I used to rely on Doc Ben’s statement but now being older and
being able to apply critical analysis I cannot accept work that is
irreplicable no matter how honored its author may be.

If someone can supply the sheet and line number of a Papyrus
of Hunifer with the Mountains of the Moon quote I will gladly
revise my views. Until then I remain skeptical. My interest is in
history not ideaology.

posted 21 January 2005 01:48 PM            

I think that the metal smiths which Ausar is referring to are the 'Mesnitu'(the blacksmiths) who were identified as the Shemsu Hor or "Horus's followers" - information on them are secondary, I have personally never seen the documents themselves.

The only conclusive document that is readily available is the Papyrus of Ani, which, despite the philosophical aspect, is predominantly a text on the Anu rule of Ancient Egypt.-- ie, Osiris, the Anu scribe...

Unlike my brother alTakruri, My primary interest is in ideology, the ideas which propels history.