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Ancient Egypt and Egyptology The Ancient Egypt "Race" Issue!! (Page 3)
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Author | Topic: The Ancient Egypt "Race" Issue!! |
rasol Member Posts: 4357 |
posted 14 February 2005 08:17 AM
quote: They did. Scroll your eyes up the thread and answer Lamin's questions please. Unless you can't. IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 4357 |
posted 14 February 2005 08:39 AM
Ooops......they did it again! Plato and his Dialogues, by Bernard Suzanne. In his Histories, II, 103-105, Herodotus suggests that Colchis was conquered by an Egyptian Pharao named Sesostris (either Sesostris I or Sesostris III, of the XIIth dynasty, who lived in the XIXth century B. C.) and that the people of Colchis were the descendants of Egyptians who stayed there at the time, but modern history has no knowledge of such an expedition by any Egyptian pharaoh, although Black communities are known to have existed in the area. IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 4357 |
posted 14 February 2005 08:51 AM
quote: Rasol wrote: quote:Still waiting. On the meaning of Ethiopia:
quote:
quote: IP: Logged |
kenndo Member Posts: 933 |
posted 14 February 2005 10:49 AM
IT IS MENTION BY ROMAN AND GREEKS SCHOLARS THAT THOSE SOUTH OF EGYPT had/have the wooliest hair they ever saw. IP: Logged |
Evil Euro Member Posts: 790 |
posted 15 February 2005 08:14 AM
quote: No, they didn't: "The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it is a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone."
quote: Looking forward to the day your brain starts working. My explanation is that Richard Poe is a pseudo-scholar, Bernard Suzanne is a dilettante, and you're a moron who doesn't bother to check his sources. [This message has been edited by Evil Euro (edited 15 February 2005).] IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 4357 |
posted 15 February 2005 08:28 AM
quote: Ad hominem # 1, does not address St. Jerome and Sophronius, writing in the late fourth century, referred to Colchis as the `second Ethiopia' because of its black population. - Patrick T. English, Cushites, Colchians, and Khazars, Journal of Near Eastern Studies
quote: Ad hominem # 2, does not address Black communities are known to have existed in the area - Dmitri Gulia, History of Abkhazia
quote: Ad hominem # 3, reveals your anger and vacuity and fail to hide the fact that you have no answers. Here's more on the second Ethiopia, the Black Colchians, and another chance for you to hide behind whiney ad hominem straw attacks since you have no answers: "Passing for the first time through the Abkhazian community of Abzhiubzha......curly-headed Negro children played on the ground and a Negro woman passed by grandly carrying a bundle on her head. Black-skinned people wearing white clothes in the bright sun resembled a picture of some African scene." - Allison Blakely http://www.hupress.howard.edu/depot/russia.htm Lamin writes: quote: Looking forward to the day that EuroDisney learns to debate, and not just hate. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 15 February 2005).] IP: Logged |
Evil Euro Member Posts: 790 |
posted 16 February 2005 08:09 AM
Your contemporary sources are untrustworthy, and your interpretations of classical sources are ludicrous.
Of course Afrocentric diehards might claim that Colchians too were black Africans, but such a theory runs into trouble when one considers the observations of Hippocrates, who wrote that the Colchians in Phasis "are large and corpulent in body. Neither joint nor vein is evident. They have a yellow flesh, as if victims of jaundice" (Hippocrates, Airs, Waters, Places 15). Nothing in Hippocrates' description suggests that Colchians look anything like sub-Saharan Africans and this further weakens the Afrocentric argument that Egyptians and Colchians must have looked like "blacks" on the basis of Herodotus' words.
Words like "dark", "black" and "curly" have varied usages, esp. in classical writing. But the language and color hierarchy used in this passage here are unambiguous. Why do you avoid it? I wonder . . . "The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it is a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone." IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 4357 |
posted 16 February 2005 08:18 AM
quote:
Your denial is unconvincing. Your counter-argument merely consists of red herrings, strawmen, and ad hominmen and is so dismissed as utterly falacious. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 16 February 2005).] IP: Logged |
lamin Member Posts: 377 |
posted 16 February 2005 12:07 PM
To: Evil Euro The term "atrati" comes from the adjective ater-atra-atrum which means dark, black, gloomy. The term for "clothing" is "vestis" and the the verb is "vestio", "vestire" "vestitum". So obviously the term "atrati" would refer to the colour "blackish" with reference to their skin colours. For clothing Marcellinus would have used some derivation of "vestio". On the hair of the Egyptians and Ethiopians Note that Aristotle describes their hair as being "the curliest of allnations--not just the Greeks. But again my point is that there was no need for Aristotle to lump the Egyptians together with the Ethiopians in terms of hair and colour unless there was a firm basis for so doing IP: Logged |
Evil Euro Member Posts: 790 |
posted 17 February 2005 07:58 AM
"[Colchians] are large and corpulent in body. Neither joint nor vein is evident. They have a yellow flesh, as if victims of jaundice." -- Hippocrates, Airs, Waters, Places 15
-- Manilius, Astronomica 4.724
(Titlbachova and Titlbach, Hair of Egyptian Mummies 1977) IP: Logged |
Horemheb Member Posts: 2612 |
posted 17 February 2005 08:09 AM
Evil, interesting info but you must remember that what these political radicals do is pick and choose the studies that support their views or studies that can be twisted in that direction and simply ignore the others. Since history and scholarship are of no interest to them facts become less important. Their comments on the Greeks are always good for a laugh. They have not a single classical scholar to back up their positions. If you look into the background of almost everyone they quote they are either a radical left wing political nut, a scholar who is writing out of their field of speciality or a person who had no credentials at all save this radical black political agenda. IP: Logged |
EGyPT2005 Member Posts: 115 |
posted 17 February 2005 11:01 AM
quote: Sounds like you "Professor of American History (Civil War)." Maybe you should leave the debating on this board, to people who have actually studied Ancient Km.t, and who's field of specialty is Egyptology, or includes it. IP: Logged |
lamin Member Posts: 377 |
posted 17 February 2005 12:11 PM
To Evil Euro: It seems that the discussions are just splitting hairs. 1)The Manilius quote doesn't say much except to confirm the point about the pigmentation of the AE's and Ethiopians. Indians from India could very dark in colour too--millions are as dark as the Dinka of the Sudan. No one denies that the Dinka and most Sudanese are blacker in colour than say the Ibo of Nigeria or the Xhosa of South Africa. Even in a place like Senegal where the Wolof are supposedly quite dark one will note much variation on the colour theme. So take a trip to Africa when you can. You s eem to operate with the assumption that all the indigenous people of Africa are jet black in colour. That maybe because you have never visited Africa. Perhaps the best way you can get some idea of what Africans look like is to read magazines that discuss Africa and take a look at the photographs. You will note that colours range from yellow to very dark. On the hair of the Egyptian mummies: Well, you didn't say what period and from where the mummies came. I prefer empirical and publicly confirmable evidence such as the wigs the AE's wore, the way they depicted their hair on their murals and the kinds of combs they used. IP: Logged |
Horemheb Member Posts: 2612 |
posted 17 February 2005 12:59 PM
2005...most of what I argue on this board has to do with the way we approach scholarship and the motives behind Afrocentricism, I have never claimed to be an Egyptologist. That said, I am always interested in discussing the civil war. IP: Logged |
Keins Member Posts: 150 |
posted 20 February 2005 10:35 AM
quote: The hair sample was probably from the roman and persian dominated dynasty. You cannot quote general study without qualifying it to what was happening in AE at that time. IP: Logged |
ABAZA Member Posts: 1618 |
posted 20 February 2005 12:37 PM
Here is the commentary about Ancient Egyptian's Hair, that was studied. ================================================================= Hair Joann Fletcher, a consultant to the Bioanthropology Foundation in the UK, in what she calls an "absolute, thorough study of all ancient Egyptian hair samples" — relied on various techniques, such as electron microscopy and chromatography to analyze hair samples (Parks, 2000). She discovered that most of the natural hair types and those used for hairpieces were made of what she calls "Caucasian-type" hair, including even instances of blonde and red hair. Fletcher surmises that some of the lighter hair types may have been influenced by the presence of ancient Libyans and Greeks in ancient Egypt. However, this type of hair was also found to be present in much earlier times.
Home quote: [This message has been edited by ABAZA (edited 20 February 2005).] [This message has been edited by ABAZA (edited 20 February 2005).] IP: Logged |
rasol Member Posts: 4357 |
posted 20 February 2005 01:02 PM
quote: The sad part is that this entire thread is a mindless repettition of a previous Abaza debacle which was put out of it's misery by Ausar who closed it.
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quote: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001414.html [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 20 February 2005).] IP: Logged |
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