posted 17 February 2005 02:11 PM            

As a determinative:

quote:

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(According to James Allen; Middle Egyptian, p435; from Gardiner's list: image M-23)
Sedge
phonogram: sw (su)
ideogram: nswt "king" (nsut)
"Sedge": swt (sut)

---

From this word, we get "Suten" - the "en" ending is a 1st person plural pronoun which means "we, us, our". This can be interpreted literally as "We who are from the Sedge country"; ie, Upper Egypt, the South, the Nile Valley, TaSeti...
Thus, the south, Upper Egypt was the place from which sovereignty originated and the very seat of legitimacy.

Suteni: to be king, to rule
Suteni.t the state of being king, kingdom, kingship, sovereignty, royalty, rule (EWB;653a,b)

This ideology expressly includes the Sudan (the Ethiopia of the Ancients), as it was referred to as:
Khentu Hon Nefer: "founders of the Excellent Order"
Hon Nefer: "Excellent Order"
Ta Khent:"land of the beginning"
Eau: "the old country"

Most Egyptologists know all of this, they just don't mention it.

The Arabs and Greeks...
In one of the most unprecedented military accomplishments in history, Arabians, under the flag of Islam were able to establish a vast colonial empire that included southern Europe and northern Africa. It is perhaps because of this development that the original name for "Sudan" would be erroneously attributed to them, forgetting that Arabic is a 'child' language in its relationship to Pharaonic Egyptian. Like Martin Bernal pointed out about Greek borrowings, there are also a lot of words in the Arabic language which were borrowed from the Egyptian.

Let's take the expression "Bilad as-Sud" which is supposed to be the origin of the name "Sudan". Well it actually is the name for Sudan, but as we've shown above, it isn't of Arab origin, and it probably doesn't actually mean "Land of the Blacks", in the same manner that "Suten" did not actually mean "king":
In fact, the Arabic terms for Blacks or Africans (aswad;sud;sooda) seem to derive directly from Egyptian words:
Egyptian: "Sut";sedge swamps > Arabic: "Sudd" > as_sud > a-swad > aswad
The Arabs clearly did not originate these terms and the parent of "Sudan" is clearly "Suten"; an Egyptian origin.

posted 17 February 2005 02:35 PM            

The Arabs called the same area, "Land of the Blacks".

The Greeks and the Romans, called the same area, Aithopia, "Land of the Burnt Faces".

It seems that you're hung up on trying to prove the opposite is TRUE. You're trying to prove that Egypt is land of the Blacks and the Sudan is land of the South or the Marshes, which makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER!!

When are you going to join the rest of world and give up this AFRO-CENTRIC FANTASY.

The real Academic World is wide open, you just need to avail yourself of all its rich resources......Good Luck!!

posted 17 February 2005 02:54 PM            

As a determinative:

quote:

---

(According to James Allen; Middle Egyptian, p435; from Gardiner's list: image M-23)
Sedge
phonogram: sw (su)
ideogram: nswt "king" (nsut)
"Sedge": swt (sut)

---

From this word, we get "Suten" - the "en" ending is a 1st person plural pronoun which means "we, us, our". This can be interpreted literally as "We who are from the Sedge country"; ie, Upper Egypt, the South, the Nile Valley, TaSeti...
Thus, the south, Upper Egypt was the place from which sovereignty originated and the very seat of legitimacy.

Suteni: to be king, to rule
Suteni.t the state of being king, kingdom, kingship, sovereignty, royalty, rule (EWB;653a,b)

This ideology expressly includes the Sudan (the Ethiopia of the Ancients), as it was referred to as:
Khentu Hon Nefer: "founders of the Excellent Order"
Hon Nefer: "Excellent Order"
Ta Khent:"land of the beginning"
Eau: "the old country"

Most Egyptologists know all of this, they just don't mention it.

The Arabs and Greeks...
In one of the most unprecedented military accomplishments in history, Arabians, under the flag of Islam were able to establish a vast colonial empire that included southern Europe and northern Africa. It is perhaps because of this development that the original name for "Sudan" would be erroneously attributed to them, forgetting that Arabic is a 'child' language in its relationship to Pharaonic Egyptian. Like Martin Bernal pointed out about Greek borrowings, there are also a lot of words in the Arabic language which were borrowed from the Egyptian.

Let's take the expression "Bilad as-Sud" which is supposed to be the origin of the name "Sudan". Well it actually is the name for Sudan, but as we've shown above, it isn't of Arab origin, and it probably doesn't actually mean "Land of the Blacks", in the same manner that "Suten" did not actually mean "king":
In fact, the Arabic terms for Blacks or Africans (aswad;sud;sooda) seem to derive directly from Egyptian words:
Egyptian: "Sut";sedge swamps > Arabic: "Sudd" > as_sud > a-swad > aswad
The Arabs clearly did not originate these terms and the parent of "Sudan" is clearly "Suten"; an Egyptian origin.

posted 17 February 2005 04:40 PM            

Sedge": swt (sut)

Suteni: to be king, to rule

Suteni.t the state of being king, kingdom, kingship, sovereignty, royalty, rule

but...

ideogram: nswt "king" (nsut)

How then did the word "Suteni" come to be associated with King, when "Sut" itself means Sedge plant?

On the word Sudd:
Arabs have been known to twist Egyptian words into whole new meanings. For instance, the Arabs used the word "Coptic" to mean all "non-Muslims". The original word was in reference to "indigenous". Those whom the Arabs felt were full newly converts, were allowed to identify as Muslims, while others were simply grouped as Copts. So it could be that, from references to the word "Suten" by the natives, the Arabs simply attributed the word to the general appearance of the folks they encountered. Those whom they felt were fully Arabized, were allowed to identify as Arabs, while others were simply referred to as Sud. The territories of these Suds would simply be referred to as Sudan. Or else, the question would be: how do you suppose the Arabic word "Sudd", borrowed from "Sut", evolved into becoming associated with skin color?

posted 17 February 2005 05:09 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Super car:
Wally wrote:

[b]Sedge": swt (sut)

Suteni: to be king, to rule

Suteni.t the state of being king, kingdom, kingship, sovereignty, royalty, rule

but...

ideogram: nswt "king" (nsut)

How then did the word "Suteni" come to be associated with King, when "Sut" itself means Sedge plant?...

[/B]

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Supercar!!
You didn't read carefully how Allen elaborates on the word. But to answer your question, briefly, the same way that "Pharaoh"- Great Double-House, also means the king;"Pharaoh" too, is an ideogram...

posted 17 February 2005 05:24 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Wally:
You didn't read carefully how Allen elaborates on the word. But to answer your question, briefly, the same way that "Pharaoh"- Great Double-House, also means the king;"Pharaoh" too, is an ideogram...

---

posted 18 February 2005 01:55 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
I guess the question should have been how this became the ideogram for King. I suppose this has something to do with the early rulers coming from the "Sedge country"??

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Yes, and the "Sedge Country" was southern Egypt and the Sudan, ie, the noted "Sedge swamps" of Sudan...

Also note that the king of Lower or Northern Egypt's title was "Biti" (bee) and his ideogram was that of a bee, and the northern kingdom was represented by the "Papyrus swamps" or the marshes of the Delta. It's totally complimentary in concept. And so you have the title for the king of both "Upper and Lower Egypt" as "NsuBiti"

(I wonder what if any relationship this (NsuBiti) has with the Nsibidi people of Nigeria)

...