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ausar Moderator Posts: 3293 |
posted 22 February 2005 07:59 PM
  
Indeed, the village seems to have gotten its name from the Beni Morr tribe of the Hejaz in Arabia who,according to tradition, settled the area 1,300 years ago during the Arab conquest of Egypt. The Nasser family,one of the larger,more prosperous clans in the village,came to Beni Morr in the late sevententh century. A former foreign minister who worked for Nasser believes that the sentimental side of Nasser's Arabism---As distinct from the hard,strategic interests that drove his Arab policy-----may have stemmed in part from his family's Arab tribal origin.[3] Page 23 Egypt and the Arabs:Foreign Policy and the Search for National Joseph P. Lorenz IP: Logged |
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ABAZA Member Posts: 1037 |
posted 22 February 2005 08:15 PM
ausar, How long does one's family have to live in Egypt in order for them to become native Egyptians? Are you trying to say that all the Berbers of Siwa are also NON-NATIVE EGYPTAINS? How about the Nubians, are they NON-NATIVE Egytians as well? Also, let us not forget the people of the Eastern Desert, the Beja, are they Egyptians or something else? Yet you yourself, is someone who is only half Egyptian and half Algerian, yet you claim to represent all the Native Egyptians!!
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ABAZA Member Posts: 1037 |
posted 22 February 2005 08:20 PM
http://www.sis.gov.eg/century/html/centry04.htm Here is the real story of the First Real Egyptain President of Egypt: Gamal Abdel-Nasser His tenure, starting with the liberation of Egypt from British colonialism, liberation movements around the world and socio-economic development of Egypt and establishment of non-alignment movement as universally-acknowledged world policy has been highly eventful and influential on both regional and international levels. Nasser's rule, with all its achievements and set-backs, has both firmly implanted Egypt in its strategic position on the world chart and turned the leader into a sort of a legend for generations to come. Born in Alexandria on January 15, 1918 to a family originating in Beni Morr, Assuit Governorate, Nasser received his secondary education in Alexandria. At the age of fifteen, he participated in anti-British demonstrations, expressing popular indignation at colonialism conspiracies with the collusion of the Royal Palace against the freedom of the nation. When he moved to Cairo, he pursued his patriotic activity and head the executive committee for secondary school students. In a demonstration against British occupation in November 1935, he was received a bullet, which left behind a scar on his forehead. In 1938, Nasser graduated from the Royal Military Academy and joined the Infantry Corps at the Manqabad barracks, Assuit province, where he started to mediate of revolution as a means of changing the deteriorating conditions of the country. On February 4, 1942 the British Ambassador, supported by an armed escort, entered the Royal Palace and forced King Farouq to agree on the formation of a Wafdist government headed by Nahas Pasha. The period from 1942 to 1948 was decisive for both his personal life and the revolution. During this period, he formed the nucleus of the free officers who later led the revolution. His work as an instructor at the Army Staff College gave him an added advantage in enlisting new members of the movement. In 1948, Britain renounced its Mandate over Palestine, which was followed immediately by the declaration of the state of Israel. Nasser was sent to Palestine to participate in the war staged by the Egyptian and other Arab armies against Israel. There, he held the first meeting of the free officers. Strongly affected by the defeat of Arab armies and the scandal, later disclosed, of the supply of faulty arms, in which members of the Palace clique were implicated, Nasser made up his mind to accelerate the implementation of his plan for the revolution. In his book, "From Giza Pyramids to Nasser's", Mathew Renato Bistoni says,"British occupation of Egyptian territories and the Palestine problems have strongly affected Gamal Abdel-Nasser since he was a child and throughout his military service. This has led Nasser to believe that it was inevitable that the army should itself take up the national assignment of salvaging the country from corruption". Thanks to his organizational and leadership skills, Nasser successfully managed to form the free officers cells within and outside the army, ultimately leading to the success of the July 23,1952 Revolution. In 1949, Nasser pursued the secret activity of the free officers who issued their first public statement in November. In "Nasser's Egypt", Peter Mansfield says, " Egypt has revived a nation, where corruption and deterioration were rife and almost disconnected it from its past glory. In leading the country, he deliberately endeavoured to left it from the bottoms of poverty, ignorance, oblivion, neglect and revive the sense of integrity and international identity". In line with the first of the Revolution's six principles ie; eradication of colonialism, Nasser fought the battles of military pacts and hegemony and revived the call for Arab nationalism. The decision to nationalize the International Suez Canal Company was the breaking-point for the stage of stable political and economic independence. After the abortive tripartite aggression against Egypt in 1956, it was followed by the Egyptianization of the economy. Under Nasser's leadership, Egypt was a staunch supporter of national liberation movements. Nasser was a co-founder of the non-aligned movement and the organization of African Unity. He convened the first Arab Summit Conference (1964) to discuss concerted action for the Palestinian issue. On the home front, Nasser's policy focused on the building of a strong economic base to support Egypt's pivotal role. Domestic Achievements: August 1952, civilian titles, as vestiges of the corrupt royal regime were abolished and government machinery purged. Nasser rejected military regional pacts (Baghdad Pact) as vestiges of imperialistic policy in the Middle East. Nasser Album
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sonomod Member Posts: 837 |
posted 22 February 2005 08:28 PM
How long does one's family have to live in Egypt in order for them to become native Egyptians? Okay instead of how long a specific group of people have been in a region isn't it a better measure of citizenship is aleigence and leaving a delible mark in society? Some groups of people have been in a country for decades, never learned the local language, never took part in the local economy besides employement and spending, never took part in civics, and then left for where they came from. Then there are groups of people within a few short years accomplish all of this listed above. In addition in to inter-marriage with locals, aleigence pledging and militarily joining in defense of the country/region. Besides many North African and Arab countries have a policy that even though you are not born on the actual soil, as long as your father was you are a citizen. It doesn't matter if you are only half. It matters of whether you have loyalty to the population, culture and soil. [This message has been edited by sonomod (edited 22 February 2005).] IP: Logged |
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ausar Moderator Posts: 3293 |
posted 22 February 2005 08:31 PM
Well in a modern sense then Nasser would be indigenous to Egypt. However, in the sense that has is ancestral to the population that founded Egypt I would not consider Nasser indigenous.
The Berbers in Siwa have their own customs and traditions. However, the Imazigh[ancient Libyans] did settled and intermarry amongst the Egyptians. The Delta was full of Berbers around the Third Intermediate period that had been living amongst the Egyptians there. My family has had a bitter struggle with Arabs in Sa3eed and this is part of the reason I don't consider them part of Egypt. Arabs during the 13th century did terrible things to the Fellahin. Pillages,destoyed, and raped their way into the heritage of the rural Egyptians. IP: Logged |
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ausar Moderator Posts: 3293 |
posted 22 February 2005 08:39 PM
sonomod, tell that to the Imazigh[Berbers] that live in parts of Morocco and Algeria. Arabs took their land by force and subjigated their language and culture. In Egypt I realize it was slightly different but this whole Arabization tactic has been going on since the caliphates. Why do you think they put Arabs in parts of Middle and Upper Egypt?Because these areas were the most rebellious. They put bedouin tribes there to break up revolts.
The fellahin are treated like trash by the people who claim Ashraf and Arab ancestry. They always have been! IP: Logged |
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sonomod Member Posts: 837 |
posted 22 February 2005 08:41 PM
quote: I understand you completely from that viewpoint. My husband still is very uncomfortable with the same. Possibly since Sadat comes from the same hometown as my in-laws his looks allows the town to feel like this was the first Misryan political leader in over 3,000 years. When discussing extended family, a person is always consider more dear and precious if the hair is perfectly black, and same with the eyes, "She/he has the original Egyptian blood of the ancient ancestors, that's why she/he is good." If someone is bad and not so good they are more Arab. Leaves me feeling cold, and confused. IP: Logged |
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sonomod Member Posts: 837 |
posted 22 February 2005 08:48 PM
quote: The Fellahin, do they carry on old Pharonic practices? Is this the idolatry that so many Egyptians I know either revere or feel really uncomfortable by? Yup the region of my in-laws were part of the military elite for as long as they can remember. So they don't trust anything arab. In town (Shebin El-Kaum) my sister in law (very uptight middle class lady) said that the uneducated in town who serve the needs of the middle class were of Bedoin ancestry, so they were lazy and stupid. "They were meant to serve us" mentality. Massive amounts of resentment for their presence. They lived in seperate buildings, were seperated from others in school. Some of it they do intentionally themselves. Though my father-in-law is very fed up with the division and finds it a load of bull. Water over the damn. He is more forgiving. IP: Logged |
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ABAZA Member Posts: 1037 |
posted 22 February 2005 08:54 PM
This is a good point, and it applies to many members of the European Communities of Alexandria and Cairo. The Greeks, Italians, French, Armenians, Jews, and others, who kept their own language and culture for themselves. When the going got tough, as in Nasser's Egypt, most of them packed their bags and left for greener pastures else where in the U.S., Canada, Europe, and other places. This does not mean that they did not contribute to the Egyptian economy, many of them did a lot of good things for Egypt, but they nevertheless did not want to become Egyptians, and left when things got worse!! As for the Nomadic Arabs of the Sinai and the deserts, they're not considered foreigners, because they have always lived in Egypt and speak Arabic, and also most are Muslims. How much they contribute to Egypt's economy is unknown to me, but they have actually been harrassed by the Egyptian Government in their effort to get them settled and assimilated into the cities and villages of Egypt. Ausar, things have changed in Egypt. It is not a shame to have foreign or even European ancestors, especially when you're a true nationalist and care only about your country of birth. BTW, if you go to Cairo, you will find that most of shops that sell Gold are owned by Armenian Egyptians, yet most of them were born in Egypt and have a much better live in Cairo than if they were to go back to the state of Armenia, which is a very poor country!!
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ausar Moderator Posts: 3293 |
posted 22 February 2005 08:55 PM
This depends on which Fellahin you are talking about. You have Fellahin in the Delta and also in parts of Middle and Upper Egypt. Most Egyptians when hearing the name Fellahin would associate them with the Delta. This is incorrect because many Fellahin also live in parts of Middle and Upper Egypt.
A lot of the elite in modern Egypt are rich Turkish and Circassian families. Many of the elite Egyptians have some form of Circassian or Turkish ancestry.
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ausar Moderator Posts: 3293 |
posted 22 February 2005 08:59 PM
Nasser did not completely kick out the Ottoman/Mameluke elite.He just put them on pension. Many of the modern elite in Egypt are still Mameluke/Ottoman origin. IP: Logged |
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sonomod Member Posts: 837 |
posted 22 February 2005 09:08 PM
quote: Yes thats what I am talking about. Especially the ones who followed the temple of abu simble (sp?) My husband revers them, while many other people find them weak in deen. Hence, the tourist trade. This really gets become a heated discussion when people would just walk up to me and my in-laws in Cairo, where we got married, how, and why. Somehow it was a joke because my father-in-law is darker with wavy hair. Then he would stern ask them which college his son went to, and whether or not he needed to check up on him. wink wink, I am a boss in the college system, wink wink. Drove me nuts. IP: Logged |
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ABAZA Member Posts: 1037 |
posted 22 February 2005 09:08 PM
These people are not foreigner, because they're Muslims, speak Arabic, and many have families who have lived in Egypt for almost a thousand years, such as the Mamelukes (White Slaves), who were forced to come to Egypt.
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ABAZA Member Posts: 1037 |
posted 22 February 2005 09:12 PM
Here is a little info about the Mamlukes: ============================================= The first Mamluks worked for Abbasid caliphs in 9th-century Baghdad. The Abbasids recruited them from enslaved non-Muslim families captured in areas including modern Turkey, Eastern Europe, and the Caucasus. Using non-Muslims as soldiers helped partially overcome Islamic prohibitions on Muslims fighting each other. The rulers also desired troops with no link to the established power structure. The local warriors were often more loyal to their tribal sheiks, their families or nobles other than the sultan or caliph. If some commander conspired against the ruler, it was often not possible to deal with him without causing unrest among the nobility. The slave-troops were strangers of the lowest possible status who could not conspire against the ruler and who could easily be punished if they caused trouble. After being converted to Islam, they were trained as cavalry soldiers, while technically after training they were no longer slaves they were still obliged to serve the Sultan. They were kept by the Sultan as an outsider force, under their direct command, to use in the event of local tribal frictions. Many Mamluks rose to high positions throughout the empire, including commanderships. Status remained non-hereditary at first and children were strictly prevented from following their fathers. The intensive and rigorous training given to each new recruit helped ensure a great deal of continuity in Mamluk practices. Mamluks in Egypt The Mamluk dynasties of Egypt were instrumental in defeating the invading Mongol invaders under Qutuz, and in eliminating the last remnants of the Crusaders from Egypt and Syria under Baibars, Qalawun, and Khalil. The influence of the Mamluk dynasties on Syria and Egypt is still evident today in the architecture of mosques, schools, and libraries, as well as bridges, water fountains and other public works. In 1517 Egypt was taken over by the Ottoman Empire. The Mamluks remained in charge of the state, which retained much autonomy from Constantinople. In 1768 Sultan Ali Bey Al-Kabir declared independence from the Ottomans but the Mamluks crushed the movement and retained their position after his defeat. By this time new slave recruits were introduced from Georgia in the Caucasus. Napoleon defeated Mamluk troops when he attacked Egypt in 1798 and drove them to Upper Egypt. By this time Mamluks had added only muskets to their typical cavalry charge tactics. When Napoleon left Egypt, his officers failed to contain the Mamluk rebellion. When French troops departed 1801, the Mamluks fought against both the Ottoman Empire and the British Empire. In 1806 Mohammad Ali Pasha became the governor of Egypt. In 1811 he invited a number of Mamluk leaders (accounts differ from 64 to 700) to his palace in Cairo and ambushed them in the street after the reception. Reputedly only one leader survived the Citadel Massacre. During the following weeks, Mohammed Pasha's troops killed thousands of Mamluks all over the country. Only a small group managed to flee to Sudan effectively ending the era of Egyptian Mamluk rulers. [This message has been edited by ABAZA (edited 22 February 2005).] IP: Logged |
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sonomod Member Posts: 837 |
posted 22 February 2005 09:14 PM
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My family is also concerned that my daughter gets confused with upper-crust Cairnes like this group, blue eyes and all. At least when I am around locals can make sense of it. Oh that's why. Personally I ran into a crowd of these youngsters at Merryland in Heliopolis. Tried to use a restroom without having the latrine door opened constantly or being mobbed with questions. They try so hard to be westerners. I never liked teenagers or yuppies so these people are so uncomfortable to be around. IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 2122 |
posted 22 February 2005 09:15 PM
Good info Ausar and Sonomod. IP: Logged |
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sonomod Member Posts: 837 |
posted 22 February 2005 09:21 PM
I know Abaza, Here is a little info about the Mamlukes Its very helpful study to understand the archecture of the city around Fustat. It will be great when they are done beautifying old fustat and then reflect on the shift between the Arab contributions to Cairo (Older and Greater). My husband's family was taxed to heck by these people. Started the practice of putting your land in your wife's name. Then Muhammad Ali wanted to 'reorganize' land ownership agriculturally and urban-wise. He's a great leader for an Albanian, but he really rubbed some people the wrong way. Somehow the Mamlukes seemed like the Romans, wild parties, lavish lifestyles, violence, lack of equal access to justice, massive debauchery. fun to read, but now I can't take my Turkish classmates seriously. IP: Logged |
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ausar Moderator Posts: 3293 |
posted 22 February 2005 09:22 PM
Sonomod, you might be interested on this article about political conditions in southern Egypt. Since most Cairenes and northern Egyptians know very little about the political climate: THE LOCUS: UPPER EGYPT Upper Egypt comprises the country's eight southernmost governorates. As is true of Chiapas, the region's history is one of isolated removal from the center of national life. The local relationships resulting from this centuries-old condition gave Upper Egypt an identity of its own within the modern Egyptian state. Alongside the even more ancient presence of Copts, tribal groupings dating from the Arab conquest combined to form a hierarchical order that placed two groups, the ashraf and the arab, in dominating positions. These were followed by lesser tribes, with the fellah at the bottom of the social scale.(28) Southerners came to be stereotyped negatively in the rest of the country, widely held to be crude, prone to violence and lacking intelligence. The authority of central governments in Upper Egypt was cemented through clientelist ties with leading families of the ashraf and arab groups. Even the Nasserist regime did not substantially undermine this political-administrative arrangement. Although land reform benefited peasant farmers to a degree, members of the landed classes used a variety of means to retain much of their holdings. Cairo continued to staff the higher ranks of the local police and security apparatus with personnel from the ashraf and arabs.(29) Religion was central to the development of Upper Egyptian society. The ashraf claimed direct descent from the Prophet, while the arabs traced their lineage to a group of tribes from Arabia. On the other hand, the status of the fellahin rested on the belief that they descended from Egypt's pre-Islamic community and had converted to Islam, a history that placed them inescapably beneath both the ashraf and arabs.(30) Copts have occupied an ambivalent position in the social scale; as Christians they are considered inferior to Muslims but their individual status effectively depends on more material criteria. In Muslim as well as Christian communities, and particularly at the lower socio-economic levels, religious practices are strongly imbued with non-orthodox folk elements, some of pharaonic origin. Although orthodox Islam is well grounded in urban areas, the countryside is the domain of a rich folk-religion, replete with beliefs in the magical, miraculous and occult.(31) The influx of villagers into Egyptian cities and towns, which by the 1970s led increasingly to the "ruralization" of these centers, provided fertile fields for anti-modernist, fundamentalist movements. Urban mosques often became centers for the recruitment of rural migrants into militant organizations.(32) http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2501/is_3_21/ai_57476490/pg_3 IP: Logged |
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ausar Moderator Posts: 3293 |
posted 22 February 2005 09:32 PM
Sonomod, don't be fooled by Arab contributions of al-fustat. Most of the architects in Al-Fustat were native Egyptian carpenters and stone masons. Arabs dependened upon the Mawali[non-Arabic Muslims] to do most of the labour throughout Egypt. Even the great Citadel of Saladin was built by Egyptians. The architect who built Al-Ahazar was a Scilian. The Mamelukes did not treat the rural Upper Egyptians very friendly either. Here is a quote about the treatment of rural Egyptians:
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sonomod Member Posts: 837 |
posted 22 February 2005 09:32 PM
quote: Yeah and he should have kicked them out. They are what Islamic clerics complain about. This is what they refer to when referencing the "Western Influence". No, they have always behaved this way, its not America possessing them to misbehave. Its debauchery, and its our little harem of mischief. This is why the government mainly middle-class in orgin just can't reign in corruption. They don't feel loyalty to the rest of the population. They are going to remain elite and do whatever it takes me make a buck, despite it hurting actual Misryans. Cripes and our hometown thinks I am one of them. Yuck. IP: Logged |
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sonomod Member Posts: 837 |
posted 22 February 2005 09:43 PM
Now I don't know how much actual work has been put into this, but I have been told it has very much sucked the life out of the tax base for the last seven years. Its called the second delta. Its supposed to diverte the flow from the High Aswan dam. Now my mother in law is an engineer specializing in agriculture. The second delta was started as a project with European help, but they backed out when work was started and before financing was put in place. So alot of educational and infastructure projects was put on hold untill the second delta financing was put back on track. Its a major political disaster so little media attention has been given and for good reason. Now since Nassar had promised landed Fellahin, their share of farm land. Naturally with such a large population explosion this would be a excellent land reclamation act. Since in ancient times this area was actually farm land. Delta in the north was just swamp land. Is this something yous have heard or read about lately? Could this possibly be the plan to connect upper egyptians with the delta and the populace in Cairo? IP: Logged |
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ausar Moderator Posts: 3293 |
posted 22 February 2005 10:38 PM
Sonomod, that might be the case. I know that when the Aswan dam was built many old archaeological sites in Egypt and Sudan were flooded out. Prior to this the Ottoman Turkish fifes occupied this area and would often treat the indigenous Nubians past Aswan like dirt. Many of these elite Turkish Nubians are known collectively as kooshaf. As far as the Delta, this is not completely true that the Delta was complete marsh land and swamps. Some cities in pre-dyanstic Egypt such a Buto flourished. During the dyanstic times Egyptians would often place captives of war into the Delta areas and other inhabited areas when populating them.
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sonomod Member Posts: 837 |
posted 22 February 2005 10:41 PM
quote: I have been printing out images of archectural feats from both Istanbul and Cairo from the same period trying to find a resemblance. Alot of books guidebooks and history manuals don't even mention local contributions. Now that really p*sses me off. IP: Logged |
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Thought2 Member Posts: 975 |
posted 22 February 2005 10:51 PM
quote: Thought Writes: We have to distinguish between Egyptians who are genetically indigenous to NE Africa and those who are politically indigenous. IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 2122 |
posted 23 February 2005 03:49 AM
quote: I would use the term ethnically as opposed to genetically. Politically an African is anyone who is born in Africa. An Egyptian is anyone who is born in Egypt. A Britain is anyone born in Britain. And African ethnic group is an ethnic group that is indigenous to Africa. Eurasians, whether Boer's living on the Cape or Turk's living in Cairo are not Africans, just as African citisens of Great Britain are not ethnically British. In Southern Africa when Zimbabwe won its independance many of the white "Rhodesians" vowed to NEVER recognise Zimbabwe, much less would they feign a detested African identity for any reason. When the land reforms got underway it was interesting to listen to some begin to sing a different tune. But it was too little, too late, and obviously disingenuous. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 23 February 2005).] IP: Logged |
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ABAZA Member Posts: 1037 |
posted 23 February 2005 03:59 AM
What are you trying to say? This does not make a lot of sense, because all Native Born Egyptians are Egyptians, Period!! If one would follow your narrow way of thinking, then all Native Born Americans, would be foreigners, unless they're American Indians!! Also, where did the American Indians come from, somewhere else I'm sure? There is no such thing as Genetically Egyptian, that to me is a FALSE PREMISE, that is very meaningless!! You're way of thinking is very DANGEROUS, because you'll end up alienating the vast majority of Native Born Egyptains. This is the same mentality that Hitler's Nazis had while they did their ethnic cleansing in Europe and Germany!!
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rasol Member Posts: 2122 |
posted 23 February 2005 04:15 AM
quote: Oh really? And if you were born in America, where you presently live and are a citisen, would that make you a Native American?. Try filling that out on a American census form and let us know how far you get with it. IP: Logged |
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ABAZA Member Posts: 1037 |
posted 23 February 2005 04:43 AM
Rasol, Please go back to sleep, because you're not making any sense as usual!! BTW, try to stay away from those AFROCENTRIC DREAMS of yourself---could be DANGEROUS LATE AT NIGHT!!
quote: Oh really? And if you were born in America, where you presently live and are a citisen, would that make you a Native American?. Try filling that out on a American census form and let us know how far you get with it. [/QUOTE] [This message has been edited by ABAZA (edited 23 February 2005).] [This message has been edited by ABAZA (edited 23 February 2005).] [This message has been edited by ABAZA (edited 23 February 2005).] IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 2122 |
posted 23 February 2005 05:26 AM
quote: ROTFL! Abaza, you keep right on editing your post until you find an answer to the question. IP: Logged |
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ABAZA Member Posts: 1037 |
posted 23 February 2005 08:02 AM
President Nasser was a common Egyptian from a poor peasant family, who did not even have a family surname. Most of the elite Egyptian class had family names, but Gamal Abdel Nasser, had only his father's first name, as most peasant families in Egypt. IP: Logged |
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Roy_2k5 Member Posts: 133 |
posted 24 February 2005 06:10 PM
Abaza is ranting as usual. Nasser, belongs to the Abaza family, whom origin can be traced back to Hejaz. They are Egyptian, but not indigenous Egyptians. BTW, why is the term 'Nubian' even used? For one, it is a Roman term, it is completely irrelevant. Moveover, the Ancient Egyptians never saw the Kushites as a different stock, nor is there any sufficient proof that the so called Nubians of Sudan and Egypt did not originate from Egypt. Matter of fact, the Nubians have more connection to AE than the Abaza pests, whom are making modern Egypt more backward. IP: Logged |
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ABAZA Member Posts: 1037 |
posted 24 February 2005 06:23 PM
Here is the answer to the AFRO-NUTS: The Ancient Egyptians were some of the earliest people to practice Slavery!!
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