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HERU Member Posts: 156 |
posted 17 March 2005 03:23 AM
  
quote: I was talking to a professor online shortly after reading this and brought it up in the conversation. If I remember correctly, he called this a Saharan haplotype. This haplotype should explain any similarities (culturally, religiously, administratively etc) between ancient Egyptians and modern W. Africans, correct? That isn't my main question though. What I really want to know is ...what happened? The Saharans that went east ultimately founded Ta-Seti and Egypt respectively. What about the Saharans that went west though? I asked this professor about the physical differences between W. Africans and E. Africans and he told me mixture with Khoisans is why E. Africans tend to look different from their W. African counterparts. The thing is, I always thought Khoisans were all over W. Africa in these times too. I've read a little about the Nok and Kintampo cultures. I don't know if these are the earliest signs of "civilization" in W. Africa but they are the oldest I've heard of. How far do these cultures go back? I'm not sure myself but I think it's safe to surmise that they're not nearly as old as the Pre-Dynastic cultures of Upper and Lower Egypt. It seems we have a better understanding of the Saharans that migrated east compared to those that traveled west. When Egypt was united (5,000 BC?), what were these other Saharans doing? Shouldn't there be evidence of "civilization" in or around the western fringes of the Sahara, as old as or older than Egypt? Ghana (Wagadu) is usually mentioned as the first Sahelian kingdom. I don't think anyone sincerely knows when Ghana was established as a kingdom though. I've noticed a lot of guessing concerning this. I've also noticed a lot of guessing when it comes to the Nok and Kintampo cultures. Websites discussing W. African history usually don't mention the Nok or Kintampo cultures and jump right into Ghana. It also seems like we don't know much about W. African history before the spread of Islam. Between the onset of Pharonic Egypt and lets say the New Kingdom (1500 BC?), what were these other Saharans doing? IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 2435 |
posted 17 March 2005 09:19 AM
Interesting comments and question, answers, plus other questions and general babblement to follow....
quote: Haplogroup are identified by mutation events which occur one time only, and are then passed on to all the male (Y chromosome) descendants of that individual. Reading left to right, the following defines the P2 haplogroup of African origin- Pn-2--- SRV10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, M145, M213, Yap, SRY4064, M96, P29, P2 As you read from left to write you progress thru time, as the gene accumulates new markers over time. You can compare this for example to R1, which is of Eurasian origin. R1 --- SRV10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, P14, M89, M213, M9, M45, M74, P27, 92R7, M207, UTY-1, M173. The point of divergance in the code roughly corresponds to the point of separation between population groups. P2 is significant because a surprising and diverse range of African ethnic groups have a common point of origin or descent marked by P2. R1 is significant because the majority of European males are of R1 lineage. Where in Africa P2 originated East/central Africa and eventually split into two forms... E3a --- SRV10831.1, M42, M94, M139, M168, P9, M145, M213, Yap, SRY4064, M96, P29, P2, DYS391p, M2, P1 and... Over time populations with E3b have clustered in East Africa and populations with E3a have clustered in West Africa. However have also been E3b populations in West Africa and E3a populations in East Africa since very early times. It can't be overemphasized that whilst genetic markers can act as fingerprints, they aren't necessarily directly responsible for physical appearance, or any specific biological 'effect' for that matter. They are like birthmarks in that respect. They help identify you, but the don't necessarily 'do' anything.
Now, the relationship between East, Central and West African populations and Nile Valley Civilisation is complex and can include.... thus:
quote:- SOY Keita.
ps - I hope you get other responses too especially from Thought and Ausar who certainly know more than I about different aspects of your good question. [This message has been edited by rasol (edited 17 March 2005).] IP: Logged |
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Super car Member Posts: 467 |
posted 17 March 2005 03:47 PM
Given the nature of your question, the answer is going to be one heck of a long one, but here goes...
quote: The E3a mutation most likely arose in the central Saharan region, which explains why the East African populations from the Horn of Africa and upwards don’t have as much of this haplotype. That is not to say the E3a haplotype doesn’t occur at a relatively smaller level, but when compared to central, southern and western African regions, studies in the aforementioned regions show less. In fact in Egypt, E3a occurs more in the Upper Egyptian populations than the Northern portion of the country. Earlier we had the following studies… "There exists a west-to-east as well as a south-to-north clinal distribution with respect to E3a-M2.
From the above, as you can see the E3a has the highest frequencies in West African sample of Benin and Central African sample of Bamileke. Whereas the frequency drops as one moves to Northeast Africa. You must however note that, the Northernmost population of Egypt is sampled here, not the southern portions of the country. Nevertheless the M2 still occurs there. This could well be an indicator that earlier migrations to the Nile Valley, to the lowermost Nile region, predated the mutation of the M2. Low frequencies here may have been due to contribution of a later migration to the Northernmost Nile. Within Egypt itself, higher frequencies of E3a occurs in the southern populations than the northern ones. Nevertheless compared to central and western Africa, the frequency is still low in this area. Note that frequency of E3b is highest in East Africa and drops in sub-Saharan west Africa. This again, is not to say E3b doesn’t occur in West Africa, but it does so in much smaller frequencies in the sub-Saharan region. The southernmost occurrence of this haplotype is found in the West African Tauregs, who interestingly are Berber speaking groups. As you move to Northwest Africa, and indeed North Africa, E3b frequencies are high again.
“..**Kenya is the northern limit of E3a-M2**, whereas J-12f2, described as a marker of the Neolithic expansion (Semino et al. 2000), extends southward only as far as Ethiopia…Although the E3a-M2 subclade is prevalent in our East African groups (Tutsi, Hutu, Kenya, and Tanzania) as well, these collections contain several additional Y-chromosomal types and, thus, demonstrate a much higher level of NRY diversity. Therefore, unlike its hegemony in the west, E3a-M2's contribution to the genetic landscape of East Africa was **not great enough to completely erase pre-existing Y haplogroups** and may have been **diluted** further by subsequent migratory movements from the north involving other Y chromosomes…When taken in context with previous studies, the current NRY data seem to reflect the linguistic boundaries demarcating southern Kenya as **the northern limit** of the Bantu speakers as they progressed eastward through the Central African corridor and southward along the Swahili coast. Kenya displays an E3a-M2 frequency of 52%, whereas the more northern populations, such as Ethiopia (Underhill et al. 2000; Semino et al. 2002), the Ethiopian Jews (Cruciani et al. 2002), and Sudan (Underhill et al. 2000), are characterized by frequencies **close to or at zero**.…” *Above quotes are all due to courtesy of University of Chicago studies In conclusion, E3a mutation must have occurred in western-central Saharan region, which as a result of the desification of the area, led to migrations south, to the West African, central and Southern African regions, while others went to the Nile Valley. The Saharan rock art tells us that these groups were in close proximity in the fertile Sahara.
quote: Unification date of Egypt is also somewhat obscure, but there seems to be some agreement about dating within the vicinity of 3100 B.C., but may well even before that. Archeologists simply go by available artifacts found, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that its conclusive. In fact, the confusion of which one person Menes is, between the Scorpion King and Narmer is testament to this. “Despite the large distances involved, it appears that the far west of the Sahara around the latitude of 25° N was far from isolated from the remainder of the greater Saharan region. The prehistoric inhabitants of Western Sahara hunted and recorded the same animals as their counterparts in central and eastern regions, and shared the same technologies. As throughout the Sahara, they responded to the same pressures of climatic and environmental desiccation; the location of hearths within wide river channels suggests a congregation around diminishing water resources, while the depiction of a wide variety of more humid- climate fauna indicate Holocene desiccation following a humid phase. .. [Art] [Burial practices]
quote: When you say different from their W. African counterparts, I hope you realize that West Africans comprise many groups. You have the Tauregs, the Fulanis, Bantu speaking groups, as well as the non-Bantu groups (like those in Senegal). At any rate, in terms of ancestors of East Africans, we've discussed this here, where the opening notes should be your focus: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001005.html
quote: The beginnings of the Nok culture is still obscure, and so, any dating available is pure speculation. The dates available in various writings are based on carbon dating of artifacts so far found. As you know, material that perish and cannot be carbon dated, are lost forever in time. Sculptures and iron-smelting furnaces have been located in the location where the Nok culture was supposed to have been based, where modern Nigeria now lies. Anyway, based on what has been found so far, this may be a reasonable but very brief chronology of what was going on in the Western regions of the continent. CHRONOLOGY OF ANCIENT WEST AFRICA After 12,000 BCE: Beginning of a wetter phase in Africa north of the equator. Populations By about 8,000 BCE: Great lakes formed in Niger Bend, Lake Chad and Upper Nile regions. 9,000 to 6,000 BCE: Saharan region in its wettest phases. By 6,000 BCE: Evidence of domesticated 'humpless' cattle in the Saharan region. 6,000-2,500 BCE: Spread of predominantly cattle-raising peoples throughout the Sahara. 3,000-1,000 BCE: Farming spreads through the former fishing belt of the tropical woodland After 2,500 BCE: Saharan region enters a period of rapid desertification, driving people and larger 1,200-700 BCE: Excavations at Dar Tichitt (modern Mauritania) reveal progression from large, After 2,000 BCE: Favorable climatic conditions and developing technology and socio-cultural After 500 BCE: Advent of iron-smelting and iron use in West Africa. Height of the civilization WEST AFRICA: C. 800 BCE TO 1591 AD/CE By 800 BCE Neolithic agricultural peoples inhabit the best lands of the savanna and forest margins. Regional trade networks based on the exchange of salt, fish, pottery, and other regional specialties developing. Small, clan-based villages typical of agricultural areas. Nomads dominate in the drier areas. -800 to -500 Development of Carthage in the north stimulates exchanges of products across the Sahara Desert, managed by desert Berbers using horses, oxen and chariots. Iron use psreads into the region from the north or east, or both. Larger scale settlements appearing in southern Mauritania. the middle Niger River basin, and the Jos plateau region. These areas correspond respectively to the probable ancestral homes of the modern Soninke (northern Mande); Songhai; and Yoruba peoples. -500 to -200 Iron use spreads rapidly throughout West Africa, stimulating population growth, trade, and urbanization. Iron-age peoples of Nok (modern Nigeria) produce magnificent terra cotta sculptures stylistically ancestral to later Yoruba and Benin art. Indirect trade continues across increasingly well-marked Saharan trails, still traversed by horse or ox-drawn vehicles.
-100 to +100 Camel use reaches the western Sahara via Berbers living in its southern reaches. c.100 to 400 CE Camel using Saharan Berber peoples, such as the Taureg and Sanhaja, develop trans-Saharan trade routes, linking the Maghrib and West Africa directly for the first time. Salt, copper, gold, dates, slaves, agricultural produce, manufactured goods and ivory among the goods exchanged. Soninke-led Ghana, Songhai-led Gao grow as middlemen for the expanding commerce. Trade routes also link Nigeria and Lake Chad to North Africa. 400 to 900 Ghana, with its capital at Kumbi Saleh, becomes the first regional "great power." With their control over the southern end of the trans-Saharan trade and the northern end of the gold trade, the Ghana of Wagadu can afford the cavalry necessary to enforce his rule throughout the lands between the Niger and the Senegal Rivers. The trans-Saharan boom stimulates the growth of regional trade in copper, iron and other goods, both agricultural and manufactured. 750 to 1000 Muslim merchants from the North become a major force in trans-Saharan and West African commerce. Islam spreads to Takrur and Ghana. Among the Kanuri of Lake Chad, the Sefawa family founds a dynasty who will rule Kanem for a thousand years. The trans-Saharan trade grows rapidly along with the expansion of the Islamic world. Artists of Igbo Ukwu in southern Nigeria produce fine works in bronze. ca.1000 Foundation of Ife, the political and spiritual capital of the Yoruba. 1054 to 1070 Almoravid Sanhaja establish control over trans-Saharan routes from the borders of Ghana to Morocco, greatly weakening Ghana. 11th & 12th c. Several Sudannic kings convert to Islam. Commerce in the Sudan gradually comes to be dominated by Muslims, both of local and north African origin. 13th c. Rise of Mali under the great Mande hero, Sundiata Keita. Ghana incorporated into the new great power. From its new capital at Niane on the Niger, Mali develops trade with the developing gold fields of the Akan in modern-day Ghana. 14th c Empire of Mali dominates the Western half of West Africa, controlling the gold and salt trade; promoting Islam; and providing peace and prosperity to its region. Mansa Musa, the best known ruler of Mali, made the pilgrimage to Mecca. 15th c. Mali suffers dynastic difficulties and economic challenges as the gold fields move further south and east. Songhai gains strength. Portuguese merchants begin trading directly with the Akan along the coast of modern Ghana. 16th c. Songhai, with its capital at Gao replaces Mali as the imperial power of West Africa. Islamic learning flourishes with government patronage in the university town of Timbuktu. 1591 Moroccan troops armed with guns cross the desert and defeat the army of Songhai, which break apart within a short time afterwards. - We've also talked about iron-age in Africa here: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001715.html
quote: You are right the beginnings of Ghanaian empire is obscure. Most of the datings various historians go by, are from Arabic sources, with whom the West Africans traded in those times. But the nature of trade between these folks, tells us that West Africans were already mature traders by time of the earliest available Arabic writings, concerning these Arabic encounters with West Africans. Needless to say, the Ghanaian empire predates those early records from Arabic trades, and may well have been a mature kingdom by then. At any rate, evidence from Jenne, tells us more about west Africans in that region. The findings there thus far have shown the emergence of a city in that region and a complex culture involving trade.
quote: [This message has been edited by Super car (edited 17 March 2005).] IP: Logged |
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rasol Member Posts: 2435 |
posted 17 March 2005 07:20 PM
Excellent reply Supercar. IP: Logged |
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Super car Member Posts: 467 |
posted 17 March 2005 07:50 PM
quote: Appreciate it. As you can see, it was a somewhat loaded questionaire. Almost encompasses everything we've touched on, on a piece by piece basis. [This message has been edited by Super car (edited 17 March 2005).] IP: Logged |
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