posted 13 May 2005 11:56 AM            

thanks in advance its for a project I am doing

posted 13 May 2005 12:13 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by african queen:
Would like to know if anyone has any pictures of the Dark skinned North African Berbers, female and male, trying so hard to find some but i failed!

thanks in advance its for a project I am doing

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Lol@Mike's useless reply....

Siwa

Toureg

Haratin

This thread contains a good debate on the nature of "Berber": http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001029.html

This one does too, but you have to be thick skinned and ignore the racist remarks Evil Euro makes when he gets upset: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001783.html

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
[B]I am sure that I am not the only one, who has noticed that Horemheb has sucessfully changed the topic, by merely making a remark about something, which he noticeably failed to address in another thread.

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The Berbers:
According to professor Christopher Ehret, they probably came from the African coast of the Red Sea. This view appears to be supported by a genetic study which concludes that their paternal lineage is probably predominantly east African in origin.* This is usually taken to imply that the language was introduced from east Africa mainly by males, maybe with some degree of population change, no earlier than 15,000 years ago.

quote:

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Thought Posts:

Arredi et al.
2004

“Under the hypothesis of a Neolithic demic expansion from the Middle East, the likely origin of E3b in East Africa could indicate EITHER a LOCAL CONTRIBUTION to the North African Neolithic OR an earlier migration INTO the Fertile Crescent, preceding the expansion BACK into Africa.”

“A clinal pattern of haplography variation like the one we observe can be expected from and EAST-TO-WEST population expansion, and the finding of LOWER E3b2 STR variation in the west than in central North Africa, accompanied by a substantial increase in frequency of this haplography, is most readily explained by expansion into virtually UNINHABITED terrain by populations experiencing increasing drift.”

“In addition, genetic evidence shows that E3b2 is RARE in the Middle East (Semino et al. 2004), making the Arabs an unlikely source for this frequent North African lineage.”

“These people COULD have carried, among others, the E3b and J lineages, AFTER which the M81 mutation arose WITHIN North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population INTO an environment containing FEW Humans.”

Thought Writes:

However, in that Nebel it al. has already found that Haplogroup J did NOT arrive in North Africa to any great extent prior to the Arab invasion. Hence E3b in North Africa did NOT arrive in North Africa in conjunction Haplogroup J and a Middle Eastern demic diffusion. Hence E3b2 mutated from the ancestral East African E3b lineage and was spread in conjunction with the Saharo-Sudanese neolithic

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The Siwan people are mostly Berbers, the true Western Desert indigenous people, who once roamed the North African coast between Tunisia and Morocco. They inhabited the area as early as 10,000 BC, first moving towards the coast, but later inland as other conquering invaders arrived. -
touregypt.net

posted 13 May 2005 12:25 PM            

Dana Reynolds from Egypt Child of Africa also mentioned the Noba/Nobatoe but claimed they were NiloSaharan speakers rather than Berber speakers.

The Noba/Nobatoe I'm referring were clearly stated to be distinct from the Nuba in Sudan proper.

I can find scant info on the Nobatoe/Noba and the rest of the population of Egypt's Western Desert.

posted 13 May 2005 12:41 PM            

quote:

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That was mean and uncalled for. "Useless reply"?

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posted 13 May 2005 12:46 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by kovert, the one and only:
[B]Rasol, I have a related question. Moustafa Gadalla in Exiled Egyptians claimed the Noba/Nobatoe were moved from the Kharga Oasis to the present Egypt/Sudan border sometime during the greco-roman period.

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Gadalla has done some good work but makes some rather far fetched claims sometimes. One thing to keep in mind is that various peoples have been referred to as Berber's, including Nubians and Beja, regardless of the fact that they don't necessarily speak Berber languages.

quote:

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Dana Reynolds from Egypt Child of Africa also mentioned the Noba/Nobatoe but claimed they were NiloSaharan speakers rather than Berber speakers.

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I agree with this.

Bear in mind, Cavelli-Sfordsa in his Genes peoples and Languages found close genetic links between the West African Taureg and East African Beja and suggested that they stem from a common origin at around the time of the foundation of the Old Kingdom in Egypt.

Archeological and biological links have also been found between the Fulani and Haratin in the West and Egyptians and Ethiopians in the East.

Keita refers to many of these people as Supra Saharans.

posted 13 May 2005 12:53 PM            

You know what? **** you. I'll just leave if you don't want me here. If you can't be civil, I don't see why I should stay. I'm obviously not welcome in the presence of the all-knowing Great Oba Rasol.

posted 13 May 2005 12:58 PM            

Dana reynolds does a paints a much clearer ethnographic picture since she shows how terms like Berber, Libyan were applied in different time periods, in different regions and by different authors during the ages.

By the way gadalla didn't claim the nobatoe were berber speakers but just they came from the kharga oasis, much of what I've read just states that the indigneous western oasis pops were berbers but don't go farther than that.

I am aware the Siwa are Tuareg speakers but can't find anything specific on the rest of the western oasis peoples.

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
I agree with this.

Bear in mind, Cavelli-Sfordsa in his Genes peoples and Languages found close genetic links between the West African Taureg and East African Beja and suggested that they stem from a common origin at around the time of the foundation of the Old Kingdom in Egypt.

Archeological and biological links have also been found between the Fulani and Haratin in the West and Egyptians and Ethiopians in the East.

Keita refers to many of these people as Supra Saharans.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 13 May 2005).]

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posted 13 May 2005 12:59 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:
[B]How is telling her to look up Tuaregs on Google trolling?

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posted 13 May 2005 01:02 PM            

quote:

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Yes you are right about classifications or rather misclassifications. I have read that the Medjay were ancestors of the modern beja but others state that they were nubians.

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Well, you know how much time we have devoted to discussing the various 'meanings' of Nubian.

quote:

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By the way gadalla didn't claim the nobatoe were berber speakers but just they came from the kharga oasis

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posted 13 May 2005 01:11 PM            

If "Mike the self-indulgent Helenne" wishes to talk about HIMSELF, then perhaps he should start an ALL ABOUT MIKE THE HELENNE thread, and stop cluttering this one with his corny off-topic useless troll antics.

posted 13 May 2005 01:24 PM            

quote:

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Mike the Hellene does not appear to be a troll

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Then have him actually address the subject.
He has made no attempt to do so Ausar, why is that?

quote:

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like someone like Akobedeth

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posted 13 May 2005 01:26 PM            

That said, let's get back on topic.

posted 13 May 2005 01:33 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by BigMix:
so there are actually black berbers. and they are not all white as EE would have us assume.

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quote:

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rasol replies:
Of course. The Siwa are the earliest known Libou [or Westerners] referenced in the
Km.t literature from the old Kingdom. They were called the Tehenu. They are actually portrayed in some Kemetic iconography with clearly African features.

The controversy surrounding the Berbers has always been.....from where do they originate.

You're talking about an ethnically diverse group of North Africans who share a common language and common genetic pattern. Their language and paternal lineage comes from tropical East Africa.

It cannot stem from West Asia, as Berber language is non existent there and Berber Y chromsome - E3b2 is rare in the middle east.

For the same reasons they cannot originate in NorthWest Africa, at least not as a Ethno-linguistic group.

---

posted 13 May 2005 01:37 PM            

The term Berber might be confusing because the Arabs called Beja,Somalis,and modern Nubians things such as Berberine. Even a port in Somali,or a city in Sudan has the name Berber. Even when the Greeks used it was not reffering to just one group of people. Many groups were included into this one group.

If you want a comprehensive history of the Berber people then check out the following:

The Berbers
Michael Brett ? Elizabeth Fentress
CULTURAL PORTRAIT ? 1997 ? PAPER ? 350 PAGES

[E-mail this page] E-mail this page [Printer-friendly version] Printer-friendly version

A comprehensive overview of the indigenous people of North Africa from antiquity through the Roman and Islamic periods to modern times. Illustrated with black-and-white photographs and diagrams, it is a survey of the history, literature and culture of the Berbers -- and the identity they have forged in the region -- in the Peoples of Africa series by academic publisher Blackwell. (NAF02, $32.95)

http://www.longitudebooks.com/find/p/3200/mcms.html

posted 13 May 2005 01:42 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:
Rasol, do you know where the Garamantes of Herodotus lived?

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SouthWest Libya.

Britons Find Ancient Empire That Made Sahara Bloom

July 15, 2000
By David Keys, Archaeology Correspondent

An ancient civilisation, lost for 1,500 years in the middle of the Sahara Desert, has been found and investigated by British archaeologists.

Research by the Universities of Leicester, Newcastle and Reading is revealing how a long-forgotten Saharan people made the desert bloom, built impressive cities and controlled an empire of 70,000 square miles.

Nearly all scholars had thought this ancient people, known as the Garamantes, had been little more than desert barbarians living in one small town, a couple of villages and scattered, nomadic encampments.

But the researchers, led by David Mattingly, an archaeologist at Leicester University, found the Garamantes had at least three big cities and 20other important settlements in the middle of the world's largest desert.

Their investigations showed how the desert, where rainfall averages only half an inch each year, was successfully cultivated. A 3,000-mile network of underground irrigation canals was built by the Garamantes, which tapped into natural fossil water supplies laid down more than 40,000 years ago when rain last fell plentifully in the area.

The archaeologists believe the Sahara became much more arid after 1200BC and thisforced local populations to move from pastoral stock-rearing to oases-based agriculture.

Oases in large depressions had easier access to fossil groundwater - and in one large depression, now known as the Wadi al-Agial, the inhabitants built underground canals to channel water from the fossil aquifers to irrigate up to 300 square miles of land.

With the subterranean canals, food production rose and the population expanded, so by 500BC the Garamantes were able to create their first towns and to start expanding their area of political control.

The archaeological research, funded by the British Academy and the Leverhulme Trust, shows that by around 100BC they had become a major political force, and they remained a 50,000-strong state until easily accessible fossil water supplies ran out.

When the groundwater level fell below that of the underground canal complex, the irrigation system simply dried up, and the Garamantes had to dig hundreds of wells to reach the lowered water table. This water crisis, as well as a reduction in trade caused by the lesser volume of slavery in the Mediterranean and the decline of the Roman Empire, seems to have reduced the power of the Garamantian civilisation by the sixth century AD.

By the end of the following century, the kingdom had come under Islamic domination.

The Garamantian civilisation reached its peak in the second and third centuries AD, when the new archaeological evidence suggests it became one of the Roman Empire's main trading partners.

Archaeologists believe large quantities of African gold, ivory, salt, semi-precious stones and slaves were supplied to the empire via the Garamantian kingdom.

posted 13 May 2005 01:42 PM            

The Garamantes lived around southern Fezzan. This is where the modern nation of Libya is located. Garmantes are either ancestral to Nilo-Saharan people like the Teda or Tuareg[Kel Tamelsheq]

BTW, Berbers like other groups have original names for themselves.

The Kaybeles call themselves Imazigh[the free people]. This is actually just a Kaybele word but other Berber groups use this term. Kaybele,Tuareg,Shuluh,and Shawia are actually mostly Arabic words. The term Kaybele simply means qabil[tribe] in Arabic.

Tuareg means those without god in Arabic. Most Tuaregs designate themselves by certain Kel groups. You have the Kel Tamelsheq,Kel Hoggar,Kel Air....etc

posted 13 May 2005 01:50 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:

You mean negroid Berbers or just dark-skinned Berbers?

[This message has been edited by Mike the Hellene (edited 13 May 2005).]

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Thought Writes:

Mike, now that we know that you believe that there are a number of different UNRELATED 'Caucasoid' Races, do you also believe that there are a number of different 'Negroid' races and if so where are they located? Thanks in advance.

posted 13 May 2005 01:52 PM            

No, tuareg is an Arabic word. Typically Tuaregs have a bad reputation with the Arabs because of their firece resistance. Where did you read that it meant theif? Anyway, most Tuaregs say they are Kel Tamelsheq[people of the veil],but some Imazigh nationalist try to say its means Kel Tamazigh. This is incorrect.

Some early travelers though Kel Tamelsheq were some lost tribe of Hebrews located all the way into the Sahara. Some even said they were wandering Christians because of the cross of Agadez.

kind of looks like an ankh doesn't it!!!

posted 13 May 2005 02:09 PM            

Tribes of the Sahara and the Golden Trade of the Moors use a lot of pseudoterms to explain away dark skinned North Africans.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:
Anyway,kovert, Gadalla is going off old racial anthropology such as the works of Sir Grafton Smith. His historical information is somewhat accurate but ethnological data is a little outdated in terms of modern studies. Nobody has produced any satisfactory studies on the Siwa Oasis or any Oasis areas in Egypt. Only some blood typing studies.

The term Berber might be confusing because the Arabs called Beja,Somalis,and modern Nubians things such as Berberine. Even a port in Somali,or a city in Sudan has the name Berber. Even when the Greeks used it was not reffering to just one group of people. Many groups were included into this one group.

If you want a comprehensive history of the Berber people then check out the following:

The Berbers
Michael Brett ? Elizabeth Fentress
CULTURAL PORTRAIT ? 1997 ? PAPER ? 350 PAGES

[E-mail this page] E-mail this page [Printer-friendly version] Printer-friendly version

A comprehensive overview of the indigenous people of North Africa from antiquity through the Roman and Islamic periods to modern times. Illustrated with black-and-white photographs and diagrams, it is a survey of the history, literature and culture of the Berbers -- and the identity they have forged in the region -- in the Peoples of Africa series by academic publisher Blackwell. (NAF02, $32.95)

http://www.longitudebooks.com/find/p/3200/mcms.html

---

posted 13 May 2005 02:26 PM            

P.S.- I'm curious. What do you guys do for a living? Are any of you real scientists or geneticists or is this sort of a hobby for you?

posted 13 May 2005 02:27 PM            

I have also read the blood feuds, codes of honor and overall belligerence of the modern Saidi have been impressed on them by the arabs. It seems to me though much if not all may come from the pastoral origins of the upper egyptian pop.

Reynolds did make note of the predatory nature of the Beja, Tebu and Tuareg, their frequent raiding and pillaging along with the blood feuds. These cultural traits are also found among the Somali and other Cushitic nomadic groups.

Still what is ironic is that many of these groups were once matrilineal and/or held women in high esteem despite these similarities with the Arabs.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

kind of looks like an ankh doesn't it!!!

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posted 13 May 2005 02:54 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

No, tuareg is an Arabic word. Typically Tuaregs have a bad reputation with the Arabs because of their firece resistance. Where did you read that it meant theif? Anyway, most Tuaregs say they are Kel Tamelsheq[people of the veil],but some Imazigh nationalist try to say its means Kel Tamazigh. This is incorrect.

Some early travelers though Kel Tamelsheq were some lost tribe of Hebrews located all the way into the Sahara. Some even said they were wandering Christians because of the cross of Agadez.

kind of looks like an ankh doesn't it!!!

---

posted 13 May 2005 03:35 PM            

Rasol, where did you get that tuareg meant thief? I had never heard this before.

posted 13 May 2005 03:46 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:

Rasol, where did you get that tuareg meant thief? I had never heard this before.

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I asked about it earlier on Egyptsearch. It may be that the word is sometimes confused with the British slang "Toe Rag" meaning tramp or thief.

It probably has nothing to do with the Taureg. If not, I'm pleased because I like the term.

posted 14 May 2005 12:27 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Well, you know how much time we have devoted to discussing the various 'meanings' of Nubian.

[QUOTE]By the way gadalla didn't claim the nobatoe were berber speakers but just they came from the kharga oasis

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Thanks,the noba were nubian-nilo-saharan speakers that came from the southwest in africa in earlier times and many married the merotites overtime.the black noba were the unmixed black nubians who married the unmixed black kushites(nubians)in the upper and southern regions in nubia at the end,during the post meroe period and the beginning the of christian period in nubia.

THE other noba came into the lower nubian region and intermarried with a already mostly mixed nubian group at the late and the end of the kushite state 350 a.d.,so most nubians became mixed in lower nubia in the late kushite period or very late ancient times,so most lower nubians in the post meroe period were known as the red noba because many were mixed and in upper and southern nubia the nubians there were called the black noba because they were unmixed blacks,but the red noba even if some did not look black were still proud nubians and they stuck with the cause with the black noba(nubians in southern and upper nubia),but the red noba still were black even if some did not look it.the noba are from the southwest just like the a-group,c-group,kerma-group,later kush group and later nubians,and most egyptians have there origin in the south too.

I just had to throw that one in there. we know from recent research the kushite state did not really end but became a period called post meroe until 500 something a.d. to the late 500's a.d.

southern nubia became christain in the late 500 a.d. and the rest of nubia became christian in the earlier 500's but many nubians still had the nubian faith during the chistian period,others worship both and some were maybe just plain christian and some in the later early medivial and later medieval period were muslim(southern nubia had some nubian muslims in the middle and later medieval period) and many of those had the nubian faith still.

SOME good books -ancient nubia-egypt's rival in africa by david o'conner

the medieval christian nubian kingdoms-by
derek a. welsby.

the kingdom ofkush-the napatan and meriotic empires by derek a.welsby.

there is more but here is just a few here for now.i hope this helps.

peace.

posted 14 May 2005 01:29 AM            

And of famous Algerian-Berber soccer player Zinedine Zidane: http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B000063VXL.08.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

posted 14 May 2005 01:38 AM            

That said, it seems to be the consensus here that the Caucasoid Berbers are either Iberians or Sea People while the real Berbers were and are black folk, like the Tuareg. Don't kill the messenger. I'm just repeating what I've heard here.

posted 14 May 2005 03:01 AM            

The nilo-saharan group are two groups.
one is sudanic-nubian,songhay of west africa etc,

and the other is nilotic-dinka,masai etc,a negriod group as well.

posted 14 May 2005 03:14 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:
Well, Maire, EgyptSearchers would disagree with that, stating that those who assert that North Africans are white are simply parroting the now discredited "Hamitic Hypothesis." But you can decide for yourself whether you think that's true or not. This board is about Egypt, after all, not race.

That said, it seems to be the consensus here that the Caucasoid Berbers are either Iberians or Sea People while the real Berbers were and are black folk, like the Tuareg. Don't kill the messenger. I'm just repeating what I've heard here.

---

If you are going to be "the messenger", you might as well do it correctly; you can't even restate the gist of what has been stated countless times now. LOL.

The predominant Berber paternal lineage is the indigenous E3b2, with origins in East Africa, while the maternal lineages in northwest Africa are of European extraction (e.g. Hg H), along with the U6 lineages.

Berber language (part of Afrasan group) is only found in Africa, and nowhere else!

posted 14 May 2005 03:40 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Maire:
I know this is off topic but I thought I'd contribute. The Berbers are a Hamitic people like the ancient (and modern) Egyptians, believed to have lived in N. Africa since prehistoric times, or at least 10,000 years. The original Berbers were Caucasoid

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Of course, all of the above is incorrect.

There is no longer a Hamito-semitic language group, and there is no longer a Hamite-caucasoid race group either.

Please try to keep up with the current scholarship.

Today the Hamitic concepts have been widely discredited and are often referred to as the Hamitic Myth. The term itself is considered by many to be perjorative. The Hamitic language group is no longer considered a useful concept. The notion of a Hamitic race is similarly problematic.

As racial theories became increasingly complex and convoluted the term Hamitic was used in different ways by different writers, and was applied to many different groups from Ethiopians to Berbers, Nubians, the Masai, Abyssinians, Somalis and many others.

Such theories are now completely outmoded.

posted 14 May 2005 03:44 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
If you are going to be "the messenger", you might as well do it correctly; you can't even restate the gist of what has been stated countless times now. LOL.

---

Yep. Classic strawfire trolling.

posted 15 May 2005 05:06 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Of course, all of the above is incorrect.

There is no longer a Hamito-semitic language group, and there is no longer a Hamite-caucasoid race group either.

Please try to keep up with the current scholarship.

Today the Hamitic concepts have been widely discredited and are often referred to as the Hamitic [b]Myth. The term itself is considered by many to be perjorative. The Hamitic language group is no longer considered a useful concept. The notion of a Hamitic race is similarly problematic.

As racial theories became increasingly complex and convoluted the term Hamitic was used in different ways by different writers, and was applied to many different groups from Ethiopians to Berbers, Nubians, the Masai, Abyssinians, Somalis and many others.

Such theories are now completely outmoded.

[/B]

---

posted 15 May 2005 07:43 AM            

I dont understand the hostility between some members on here, but we are all here to learn something so if we gona dispute, y dont we do it in a mature fashion without the swearing... cya

[This message has been edited by african queen (edited 15 May 2005).]

[This message has been edited by african queen (edited 15 May 2005).]

posted 15 May 2005 07:49 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike the Hellene:
You mean negroid Berbers or just dark-skinned Berbers? If you mean negroid Berbers, try Google's Image Search Engine for "Tuareg." Lots of good pictures available.

[This message has been edited by Mike the Hellene (edited 13 May 2005).]

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Ok I will check it out, but can I say I have never heard of the term 'negroid berbers', thats odd, to be honest I really would perfer dark skiinned berber or North African berbers .

Negroid to me is like saying Android ie. not human, i just really dislike that term or label, its a derogatory term which is misused to many times. I am African, so there is no need to call my self Negroid is there. Why should an Irish man call himself Caucasian?,, these labels are old schooland really dont need to be used at all.

If I wan be more specific I am Ghanian.
I think peeps really need to drop that term. Its very very degrading, in this modern society you would think terms like that would have been extinct but it is till been widely used today ESPECIALLY in America. Here in London, in many of the universtiys, such as 'School of African and Oriental studies', if that term was used, there would be an uproar.!

posted 15 May 2005 09:03 AM            

quote:

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Thanks so much guys you have been all very helpful, and Rasol thank you for sharing your knowledge and the pictures are beautiful.

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