posted 05 July 2005 08:14 AM            

the Ancient Egyptians, i believe, were pushed up the Nile from the south and they then decided to start a civilization. as it shows in hieroglyphs, they are painted as a reddish brown. i've heard people say "but if they're reddish brown they're NOT black Africans." uh yes they were. aren't most of the famous African americans we consider "black" (will smith, beyonce, halle berry) about the same color or even LIGHTER? the Egyptians named their land Kemet, for two reasons. the soil left by the Nile's floods was black, and they recognized themselves as similiar, yet distinct, from their neighbors to the south.

look at the Mural of Races in the tomb of Seti I and you'll see a Syrian, Libyan, Nubian, and Egyptian. i've heard people claim that Egyptians are among the Mediterranean races (Greek, Italian, Arab). the Libyans were of Berber heritage, and mixed with Mediterranean. do the Egyptians even appear close to the appearance of the Libyan or Syrian? no, in that mural, the Egyptian is very similiar looking to the Nubian, despite skin color and different clothing style.

also many Greeks and Romans had taken notes on the appearances of the Egyptians. correct me if i'm wrong but didn't Herodotus describe the Egyptians as flat nosed, thick lipped, kinky haired Africans? the Greeks were Mediterranean and their description of the Egyptians sounds nothing like anything you'll find in Europe or the Middle East, unless mixed with African. also, many others described them as like the Ethiopians.

lastly, i will base this on evidence from mummified remains and busts and reliefs found recently. look at any bust of King Tut (especially the one with his head coming out of a lotus flower).you'll see a head shaped much like that of an African, full lips, and dark brown skin. and as for his "caucasian nose", many populations in East Africa have that same type nose and their skin is as black as coal. look at many of the busts and statues of Egyptians and you'll find full, African lips, high cheekbones, and prominent shaped heads. when they took the mummified remains of King Tut and made a face, sure the skin was light but contrary to believed, IT DID NOT LOOK CAUCASIAN. AT ALL. the head shape and lips clearly showed an African. the skin looked much like the color of Beyonce's.

last thing. people also say that they were not black because they sometimes showed more caucasian features. much of East Africa has those features, without admixture with Europeans or Arabs. does this make them caucasian? no, it shows that Africans come with a variety of features, not just the stereotypical features. many famous African Americans don't have those features. take Jada pinkett Smith for example. "where is her thick nose and puffy lips? wait she doesn't have any, she must be CAUCASIAN." wrong. so a European with thick lips, a prominent head, and a flat nose is now negroid? i think not. you must reverse it and if you do and it doesn't work both ways, it's not an accurate statement.

i'm mostly Egyptian, mixed with some European far back. i have caramel skin, thick "African" lips, a semi-flat nose, and tight kinky hair. the only African in me is Egyptian, and i'm not mixed with Sudanese or Arab either. my grandparents came from Luxor. much of Egypt's rural population is very black, just not the larger cities of Cairo and Alexandria. that's due to Arab mixture which didn't effect all of the population? and to write them all off as Nubians is wrong, they are Egyptians and are the closest racially to the Ancient Egyptians.

if you're going to try to claim the Egyptians as your own race, people, please provide some evidence.

posted 05 July 2005 09:06 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yonis:
Are you sure you are 13??

---

Are u sure you are an Egyptian? or you are African American Knit wit?.

posted 05 July 2005 09:58 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by AMR1:
Are u sure you are an Egyptian? or you are African American Knit wit?.

---

posted 05 July 2005 10:04 AM            

since you, AMR1, seem to think i know nothing about Egypt because i gave a lot of evidence as to why i believe i belong to a black race, why don't YOU give evidence as to why you disagree?

posted 05 July 2005 10:10 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian:
yep i noticed *rolls eyes*

since you, AMR1, seem to think i know nothing about Egypt because i gave a lot of evidence as to why i believe i belong to a black race, why don't YOU give evidence as to why you disagree?

i should never have even registered.

---

I'm glad you registered. You questions are very thought-provoking. I didn't answer only because i"m not Egyptian and don't have enough experience in Egypt to really understand its racial makeup. But I'd love to follow the thread with some real debate, so I can learn! :-)

keep posting.

Susan

posted 05 July 2005 11:04 AM            

allahu akbar!

those accustomed to lies see the truth as such. It is great for people to take pride in their heritage and a blessing for the country and community.

posted 05 July 2005 11:33 AM            

This forum is about ancient Egypt and it has been shown to be an indigenous African culture and the people were not Caucasian. They were Black East African people.

[This message has been edited by osirion (edited 05 July 2005).]

posted 05 July 2005 12:13 PM            

If you study more about African culture, you would realize that ancient Egyptian civilization was very much an African culture. Their whole culture just exudes African! Here are just a few of the many African aspects of the culture:

• Divine Kingship-- the pharoah was seen as not only a king but a god. This is seen in many African cultures that have monarchies. For example in Sudan they have "rain-maker kings" In Egypt the Pharaoh was the "flood-maker" who would make the Nile flood to bring fertility.

• totemism-- the use of living symbols such as animals or even plants to represent clans or gods. This is another thing that made the Egyptians "unique" in the ancient world, worshipping gods in animal form. This practice is also widespread in Africa.

• matricy-- women were considered equal in society having the same rights and even having some privileges. They could own property and businesses. They basically had access to things that other women in ancient times, specifically the Near-East and Europe did not. This the aspect that definitely made Egypt "unique" in the ancient world. However, again, it's not unique to Africa.

• cosmogony and cosmologies-- the conception of gods and the divine, how the universe was created, and the forces of order and chaos reflect many African beliefs

• other sacred symbols-- numbers represented spiritual beliefs, even colors like black which represented the divine through rejuvenation and rebirth. While red meant chaos and disorder.

• styles and wardrobe-- they had hairstyles like wigs which were elaborately braided. Their clothes looked strikingly similar to those traditionally worn in other parts of Northeast Africa, and even their jewelry with similar amulets to ward off evil.

There is just too many for me to remember at this point so this is all I could come up with at the moment.

posted 05 July 2005 12:19 PM            

What occured is many movements from the south and from the Sahara desert that went to form the early Egyptian populations like Badarian,Naqada,etc.

Most of the Nile was covered up with marshes unill human population began to move in around approximately 7,500 BP that formed the Faiyum Neolithic. Definately this population had to come either from the Sahara or southward.

Whatever the Delta people were in the Northern part of Egypt is still up for debate.We definately know that the Upper Egyptian people were African in origin,and is not debatable. Skeletal analysis confirms the following. Most old anthropologist have said the closest modern people to what the pre-dyanstic Egyptians were the modern Beja people in modern day Sudan.

Makayla,if I may call you that, I am from the Luxor area myself. I would agree that the cloest people to the ancient Egyptians in modern Egypt in terms of phenotype are the southern Upper Egypt people. Which village in Luxor did your people come from? The Lower Egyptians have alot of Greek,Armenian,Turkish,Arab,and even Iranian ancestry. This mostly came from the Late Dyanstic Period into the Islamic period and modern era.

Some Middle Egyptians located around Fayoum to Minya might have some Berber ancestry and some Arab ancestry.

Check out my forum:

http://phpbb-host.com/phpbb/index.php?mforum=thenile&sid=a328baf7370c32c1fe562619120b50e4

Djehuti,could you also post the following on my forum.

Makayla, check out my forum also if you could.

Please support my forum.

posted 05 July 2005 01:00 PM            

Just a few thoughts and comments regarding your posting. First, for a 13 year old, you seem to be very articulate, but are these your own words or did you get help from some grown up person, in order to phrase your argument. My reason for asking is that over here on Egyptsearch, we have heard the same comments from a variety of people, who simply copy and paste, without actually understanding the bias behind these words.

Also, you seem to be so sure of your family heritage and exact composition, which I find very hard to believe, because very few Egyptians can claim such knowledge without being psychics. You have no idea, why you look like an African American and why - there may be a little more Black African heritage in your background than you're willing to admit, because the AE's imported a large number of Negroes into Egypt, and many of them never left the country.

I'm an Egyptian myself, and I find your words to be very biased and hard to believe that no one helped you with this assignment.

quote:

---

Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian:
hi guys, just thought i'd introduce myself. i'm Makayla, 13, and yes, i'm Egyptian. there's always so much speculation about the racial makeup of the Egyptians, both modern and racial. being an Egyptian myself i thought i'd give my beliefs and see who agrees with it.

the Ancient Egyptians, i believe, were pushed up the Nile from the south and they then decided to start a civilization. as it shows in hieroglyphs, they are painted as a reddish brown. i've heard people say "but if they're reddish brown they're NOT black Africans." uh yes they were. aren't most of the famous African americans we consider "black" (will smith, beyonce, halle berry) about the same color or even LIGHTER? the Egyptians named their land Kemet, for two reasons. the soil left by the Nile's floods was black, and they recognized themselves as similiar, yet distinct, from their neighbors to the south.

look at the Mural of Races in the tomb of Seti I and you'll see a Syrian, Libyan, Nubian, and Egyptian. i've heard people claim that Egyptians are among the Mediterranean races (Greek, Italian, Arab). the Libyans were of Berber heritage, and mixed with Mediterranean. do the Egyptians even appear close to the appearance of the Libyan or Syrian? no, in that mural, the Egyptian is very similiar looking to the Nubian, despite skin color and different clothing style.

also many Greeks and Romans had taken notes on the appearances of the Egyptians. correct me if i'm wrong but didn't Herodotus describe the Egyptians as flat nosed, thick lipped, kinky haired Africans? the Greeks were Mediterranean and their description of the Egyptians sounds nothing like anything you'll find in Europe or the Middle East, unless mixed with African. also, many others described them as like the Ethiopians.

lastly, i will base this on evidence from mummified remains and busts and reliefs found recently. look at any bust of King Tut (especially the one with his head coming out of a lotus flower).you'll see a head shaped much like that of an African, full lips, and dark brown skin. and as for his "caucasian nose", many populations in East Africa have that same type nose and their skin is as black as coal. look at many of the busts and statues of Egyptians and you'll find full, African lips, high cheekbones, and prominent shaped heads. when they took the mummified remains of King Tut and made a face, sure the skin was light but contrary to believed, IT DID NOT LOOK CAUCASIAN. AT ALL. the head shape and lips clearly showed an African. the skin looked much like the color of Beyonce's.

last thing. people also say that they were not black because they sometimes showed more caucasian features. much of East Africa has those features, without admixture with Europeans or Arabs. does this make them caucasian? no, it shows that Africans come with a variety of features, not just the stereotypical features. many famous African Americans don't have those features. take Jada pinkett Smith for example. "where is her thick nose and puffy lips? wait she doesn't have any, she must be CAUCASIAN." wrong. so a European with thick lips, a prominent head, and a flat nose is now negroid? i think not. you must reverse it and if you do and it doesn't work both ways, it's not an accurate statement.

i'm mostly Egyptian, mixed with some European far back. i have caramel skin, thick "African" lips, a semi-flat nose, and tight kinky hair. the only African in me is Egyptian, and i'm not mixed with Sudanese or Arab either. my grandparents came from Luxor. much of Egypt's rural population is very black, just not the larger cities of Cairo and Alexandria. that's due to Arab mixture which didn't effect all of the population? and to write them all off as Nubians is wrong, they are Egyptians and are the closest racially to the Ancient Egyptians.

if you're going to try to claim the Egyptians as your own race, people, please provide some evidence.

~*Makayla*~

---

posted 05 July 2005 01:10 PM            

Fareed, there is no evidence of ancient Egyptians importing ''Negroe'' slaves to work in ancient Egypt. Ancent Egypt never had slave markets or chattel slavery like in America,and most so-called slaves in Egyptian soceity were simply war captives.

I could argue that most lighter more Mediterranean Egyptians are desendants of Syrian or eastern European slaves brought to Egypt over several decades. Infact, the importation of white slaves was very common throughout the Islamic era in Egypt.

All the slaves in Egypt were mostly Syrian or Eastern Mediterranean,and very few came from further south than Sudan.

posted 05 July 2005 01:15 PM            

North Africa, may have had more Negroes in the past, but today it is mostly Caucasoid Lands, with a some Black Africans as a minority.

Also, the climate of Ancient Egypt is not very favorable for Negroid People, who are tropically adapted and many simply could not survive in the desert climate of Ancient Egypt.

quote:

---

Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian:
that's true, nowadays Africa is a much more diverse area than it was in ancient times, but i myself am not caucasian and a good number of Egyptians aren't. i do see your point.

---

posted 05 July 2005 01:23 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

WalklikeanEgyptian, to understand the origins of the ancient Egyptians you have to study the pre-dyanstic period. During this period is when the heritage of the ancient Egyptians formed. Most people are unaware that at one time the Sahara desert was once more moist,and that people that have affinities with so-called Sub-Saharan people existed in this region. This is attested both by rock art and physical remains.

What occured is many movements from the south and from the Sahara desert that went to form the early Egyptian populations like Badarian,Naqada,etc.

Most of the Nile was covered up with marshes unill human population began to move in around approximately 7,500 BP that formed the Faiyum Neolithic. Definately this population had to come either from the Sahara or southward.

Whatever the Delta people were in the Northern part of Egypt is still up for debate.We definately know that the Upper Egyptian people were African in origin,and is not debatable. Skeletal analysis confirms the following. Most old anthropologist have said the closest modern people to what the pre-dyanstic Egyptians were the modern Beja people in modern day Sudan.

Makayla,if I may call you that, I am from the Luxor area myself. I would agree that the cloest people to the ancient Egyptians in modern Egypt in terms of phenotype are the southern Upper Egypt people. Which village in Luxor did your people come from? The Lower Egyptians have alot of Greek,Armenian,Turkish,Arab,and even Iranian ancestry. This mostly came from the Late Dyanstic Period into the Islamic period and modern era.

Some Middle Egyptians located around Fayoum to Minya might have some Berber ancestry and some Arab ancestry.

Check out my forum:

http://phpbb-host.com/phpbb/index.php?mforum=thenile&sid=a328baf7370c32c1fe562619120b 50e4

Djehuti,could you also post the following on my forum.

Makayla, check out my forum also if you could.

Please support my forum.

[This message has been edited by ausar (edited 05 July 2005).]

---

Ausar:

yes you can call me Makayla (you all can). my family came from the west bank of Luxor (also known as the City of the Dead, or Thebes) and there was a slight mixture of European blood on my father's side. i know that there are different mixtures in the Egyptian population and i know that south of Luxor is mostly black. even in Upper Egypt (Cairo, Alexandria), there is a slight black admixture but many people there can claim Arab ancestry, as you said. and i'll check out that link.

and Fareed:

many of Egypt's blacks weren't imported and are fully Egyptian, not Nubian or Sudanese. my dad is slightly mixed but the only African ancestry i have is Egyptian, so no i am completely aware of my heritage. you need to understand is that once a group came to Egypt, they were absorbed into the population. the blacks in Egypt are actually the most native to the land, but i'm not saying they're more Egyptian than anyone else.

and nobody did help me with the argument, i am perfectly capable myself i'm a high honor student and i have always been a writer, and i can support myself in an argument.

posted 05 July 2005 01:25 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by fareed:
I have to disagree with this comment, Africa has always been very Diverse and FYI, all Caucasoid People originated in Africa, just as Negroes did.

North Africa, may have had more Negroes in the past, but today it is mostly Caucasoid Lands, with a some Black Africans as a minority.

Also, the climate of Ancient Egypt is not very favorable for Negroid People, who are tropically adapted and many simply could not survive in the desert climate of Ancient Egypt.

---

posted 05 July 2005 01:32 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Makayla, you must not forget that the Egyptians were not just African 'racially'!

If you study more about African culture, you would realize that ancient Egyptian civilization was very much an African culture. Their whole culture just exudes African! Here are just a few of the many African aspects of the culture:

• Divine Kingship-- the pharoah was seen as not only a king but a god. This is seen in many African cultures that have monarchies. For example in Sudan they have "rain-maker kings" In Egypt the Pharaoh was the "flood-maker" who would make the Nile flood to bring fertility.

• totemism-- the use of living symbols such as animals or even plants to represent clans or gods. This is another thing that made the Egyptians "unique" in the ancient world, worshipping gods in animal form. This practice is also widespread in Africa.

• matricy-- women were considered equal in society having the same rights and even having some privileges. They could own property and businesses. They basically had access to things that other women in ancient times, specifically the Near-East and Europe did not. This the aspect that definitely made Egypt "unique" in the ancient world. However, again, it's not unique to Africa.

• cosmogony and cosmologies-- the conception of gods and the divine, how the universe was created, and the forces of order and chaos reflect many African beliefs

• other sacred symbols-- numbers represented spiritual beliefs, even colors like black which represented the divine through rejuvenation and rebirth. While red meant chaos and disorder.

• styles and wardrobe-- they had hairstyles like wigs which were elaborately braided. Their clothes looked strikingly similar to those traditionally worn in other parts of Northeast Africa, and even their jewelry with similar amulets to ward off evil.

There is just too many for me to remember at this point so this is all I could come up with at the moment.

[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 05 July 2005).]

---

that's interesting. i've read all that before and i think it's interesting because many people believe that those were just elements in Egyptian society only. thanks for posting that.

posted 05 July 2005 02:08 PM            

quote:

---

I have to disagree with this comment, Africa has always been very Diverse and FYI, all Caucasoid People originated in Africa, just as Negroes did.

North Africa, may have had more Negroes in the past, but today it is mostly Caucasoid Lands, with a some Black Africans as a minority.

Also, the climate of Ancient Egypt is not very favorable for Negroid People, who are tropically adapted and many simply could not survive in the desert climate of Ancient Egypt.

---

Then explain to me how Nubian mercenaries shown in the Assuit tomb of Meshenti are shown simply wearing a loin cloth. Northern Sudanese people live mostly in a desert type climate as do Somalis,and even Sahelian Africans like Fulani. This makes no sense because the early climate in Egypt was quite different than it was today. It was mostly a swamp with papyrus thickets.

The Sahara desert did not exist back then as it does today,and this allowed free-flow migration into the Nile Valley.

Plus you can't lump Northern Africa into one big group. Egypt is not within North-west Africa which had a completely different pre-history and culture than Egypt did. Of course North-western Africans did migrate into Egypt after later periods,but still North-eastern Africa shared a completely different pre-history.

Makayla, are you Christian or Muslim? You still did not specify what village you came from in Luxor. These are just questions I am wondering about.

posted 05 July 2005 02:43 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

Then explain to me how Nubian mercenaries shown in the Assuit tomb of Meshenti are shown simply wearing a loin cloth. Northern Sudanese people live mostly in a desert type climate as do Somalis,and even Sahelian Africans like Fulani. This makes no sense because the early climate in Egypt was quite different than it was today. It was mostly a swamp with papyrus thickets.

The Sahara desert did not exist back then as it does today,and this allowed free-flow migration into the Nile Valley.

Plus you can't lump Northern Africa into one big group. Egypt is not within North-west Africa which had a completely different pre-history and culture than Egypt did. Of course North-western Africans did migrate into Egypt after later periods,but still North-eastern Africa shared a completely different pre-history.

Makayla, are you Christian or Muslim? You still did not specify what village you came from in Luxor. These are just questions I am wondering about.

---

we're christian, not muslim. i know that's a minority in Egypt. i'll have to ask about the exact village but i definitely know it's on the west bank of Luxor.

question for you Ausar: are you considered black or African American? what do you consider yourself?

posted 05 July 2005 03:44 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian:
we're christian, not muslim. i know that's a minority in Egypt. i'll have to ask about the exact village but i definitely know it's on the west bank of Luxor.

question for you Ausar: are you considered black or African American? what do you consider yourself?

---

From the outside appearings, no one including Egyptians well know the difference between a Muslim and a Christain.

Yet all the Copts who leave Egypt, leave with it their Arabic identity and look for another identity for themselves and for their ancestors.

You are obviously either not 13 or some one wrote this post for you. Being a Copt, explains a lot why you identify with the afro Centric view of Egypt.

I am a Muslim from upper Egypt etnically and
disagree with both the afro centric and the euro centric view.

I believe the afro centric view is a war on Muslims of Egypt, part of a war and a CRUSADE that is taking many shapes. It is not a simple academic fight over how King Tut looked like.

The Euro centric view is long have been dead and I think the afro centric view ill follow it soon, as Egypt was never a pure society since 10 thousand years ago.

There was huge migrations of people all around the world, and Egypt was not an exception, and the people who came to live in it are not only from the southern sahara region or East africa, also Europeans and Middle easterners.

posted 05 July 2005 05:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian:
that's interesting. i've read all that before and i think it's interesting because many people believe that those were just elements in Egyptian society only. thanks for posting that.

---

Makayla, the problem is that so many people know little to nothing on the subject of traditional African culture!! I suggest you do research on this subject like I have. I am no "afrocentric", in fact I'm not even black, but it wasn't until I did research on Africa's culture that I was able to see the great intense connection Egypt had to the rest of Africa. Now that my mind has been opened I find the past centuries of Eurocentric and Arabized denial to be laughably absurd!! The truth is comming out, albeit slowly and steadily!

By the way, welcome to the forum but if you noticed we do have the problem of trolls spamming their nonsense without anything legitimate to back it up! Take for example, Fareed who argues the silly idea of "negroes" only living in "Sub-Sahara" and that blacks don't live in deserts, despite the millions that live there today, like the Tuareg and Haratin or as Ausar said, Somalis and Fulani people. Also is the fact that the Sahara desert didn't even exist millenia ago!! We also have the Arabized fool, AMR who claims and thinks (in his silly mind) that the Egyptians have been mixed since 10,000 years ago!! Of course he offers no evidence but wishes this to be the case. As an Arabized idiot, he wants all civilization in Africa to be the result of "mixing" with peoples from the Near-East! You will be seeing alot of these morons, but don't take them seriously!

Oh and FYI, I don't know what the trolls are talking about. I've met plenty of 13-year-olds or younger that are just as articulate as you! I don't doubt they think this because they themselves were never as intelligent sounding at that age, heck even now as grown adults!!LOL

posted 05 July 2005 06:32 PM            

makayla,
disregard comments by amr and fareed regarding your age. i'm sure they and many muslims still believe women should stay home without any education except domestic work. this belief alone disqualifies amr and fareed's "arabic heritage" from ever claiming any great african civilization of our past because of the matriarchy customs of african cultures.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Makayla, the problem is that so many people know little to nothing on the subject of traditional African culture!! I suggest you do research on this subject like I have. I am no "afrocentric", in fact I'm not even black, but it wasn't until I did research on Africa's culture that I was able to see the great intense connection Egypt had to the rest of Africa. Now that my mind has been opened I find the past centuries of Eurocentric and Arabized denial to be laughably absurd!! The truth is comming out, albeit slowly and steadily!

By the way, welcome to the forum but if you noticed we do have the problem of trolls spamming their nonsense without anything legitimate to back it up! Take for example, Fareed who argues the silly idea of "negroes" only living in "Sub-Sahara" and that blacks don't live in deserts, despite the millions that live there today, like the Tuareg and Haratin or as Ausar said, Somalis and Fulani people. Also is the fact that the Sahara desert didn't even exist millenia ago!! We also have the Arabized fool, AMR who claims and thinks (in his silly mind) that the Egyptians have been mixed since 10,000 years ago!! Of course he offers no evidence but wishes this to be the case. As an Arabized idiot, he wants all civilization in Africa to be the result of "mixing" with peoples from the Near-East! You will be seeing alot of these morons, but don't take them seriously!

Oh and FYI, I don't know what the trolls are talking about. I've met plenty of 13-year-olds or younger that are just as articulate as you! I don't doubt they think this because they themselves were never as intelligent sounding at that age, heck even now as grown adults!![b]LOL
[/B]

---

posted 06 July 2005 03:22 AM            

I am interested in hearing more about Copts. It would seem to me that many Jewish people in Egypt would have become Copts as well. I can also see why Copts would disassociate themselves from the Arab and claim Black African heritage. However, it also seems to me that many Copts would be related to me and thus mixed. Also, wouldn't Copts have a tendency to be more pure Egyptian if they didn't mix with Turk and Arab muslims? Just wondering if that makes any sense? But at the same time wouldn't Copts marry Jews?[/quote]

Osirion,

Copts are definately mixed like most modern Egyptians. Copts have absorbed Armenian,Greek,Syrian,and even Jewish ancestry from the Greco-Roman era going into the Christian era. You can quite clearly see this in their phenotype. So it really depends which part of Egypt a Copt is located. Most people in the west are under the impression all Coptic Christians are light because most of the ones that migrated to America tended to come from more elite background instead of Fellahin and rural Saidi Copts. The wealthy land-owning Coptic families tend to intermarry with foreigners more than fellah Copts.

So basically Copts come from off-white types,mixed types,and dark-brown types[usually the ones located from Luxor to Aswan] Even in Middle Egypt you sometimes see these types.

Here are some quotes by the English traveler in Egypt Edward Willam Lane on the Copts and Muslims:

In many individuals among them we find this resemblence to the anicnet Egyptians to be
strikingly exact, though more frequently in Copts and in Nubians and
in the Muslim Egyptians[ as well as the Copts] it is generally most
observable in Upper Egypt.

page 26

Edward Lane

Manners and Customs of the Modern Egyptians

In Cairo , and throughout the northern provinces , where immigrants
from more temperate climates have been most numerous, those who have
not been much exposed to the sun have a yellowish , but very clear
complexion and soft skin; the test are considerably darker and
coarser complexion. The poeople of Middle Egypt are more tawny
color;and those of more southern provinces are of a deep bronze or
brown complexion,darkest towards Nubia, where the climate is hotest
and where Egyptians gradually give place to Nubians.

page 27

Edward Lane

Manners and Customs of the Modern Egyptians

Most of the females of the higher parts of Upper Egypt[who are of a
very dark complexion], for the purpose of making their teeth glisten,
tattoo their Lips instead of the parts mentioned; thus converting
their natural color to a dull bluish hue,which, to the eyes of a
stranger is extremely displeasing.

page 41

Manners and Customs of the Modern Egyptians

Edward Lane

With some respect to their personal chracteristics, we observe some
striking paints of resemblence, and yet, upon the whole, a
considerable difference, between the Copts and the ancient
Egyptians , juding off the latter from the paintings and sculptures
in their tombs and temples. The differences is ,however, easily
accounted for by the fact of the intermarriages of the ancestors of
the modern Copts with foreginers , above mentioned. The people who
bear the greatest resemblence to the ancient Egyptians, at present,
are they Nubians; and next are the Abyssinians; and the Copts who
are, not withstanding , much unlike each other.

page 530

Edward Lane

Manners and Customs of the Modern Egyptians

I find it difficult , sometimes , to perceive any differences between
a Copt and a Muslim Egyptian, beyond a certain downcast and sullen
expression which generally marks the former; and the Muslims
themselves are often deceived when they see a Copt in a white turban.
We observe in the latter, the same shades of complexion untry, as in
the former; varying from a pale yellowish color to a deep bronze or
brown.

The eyes of the Copt are generally large and elongated, slightly
inclining from the nose upwards, and always black: the nose is
straight, except at the end where it is rounded, and wide: the lips
are rather thick; and the hair is black and curly.

page 530

Edward Lane

Manners and Customs of the Modern Egyptians

Frank Joseph Yurco Dec 30 1996, 3:00 am show options
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology, alt.archaeology, soc.culture.egyptian, alt.culture.egyptian
From: fjyu...@midway.uchicago.edu (Frank Joseph Yurco) - Find messages by this author
Date: 1996/12/30
Subject: Re: Are Egyptologists Interested In Ethnicity (was "A Question For Marc Line)
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Finally, the posters have lurched into the truth on the issue of who the
ancient Egyptians were. Yes, Upper Egyptians, Copts and Muslims alike are
dark complexioned, and their hair varies from wavy to kinky. Certainly,
in the ante-bellum American South, they would have been classed with the
other Africans who were enslaved. That ante-bellum southern image is still
common in the United States, where if you have any African ancestors you
are classed as "b;ack". Yet, how screwed up the Americans are is evident
by how the census bureau deals with Egyptians who migrate to the United
States. They are classed as "white" no matter how brown they appear!!!

Frank Joseph Yurco Dec 26 1996, 3:00 am show options

Another myth that needs exploding is that all Copts are light
complexioned. Ever meet a Copt from Luxor or Aswan? They are as brown
as the rest of the population there. I lived three years in Luxor and
have travelled extensively in Egypt, so I speak from experience

Makayla, I do have some question for you still:

1. What church does you and your family attend in America? [if this is too personal then you can email me because my email adress in up near the moderator option]

Makayla, to answer your earlier question:

As far as would I be considered ''black'' in America I would say yes because I have dark brown skin,tighly curled hair.

Personally I would not get offended if a person called me African American,but I would get offended if a person called me an Arab.Because no fellahin[either Muslim or Copt] considers his/herself to be an Arab.

posted 06 July 2005 04:27 AM            

Plz excuse this ignorant fool. He is amazed a young man like yourself has more knowlege of egypt then himself. Its good to see the youth knowing what their heritage is. Fareed is a wannabe white boi, in other words he wants to be white and have nothing to do with Africa. He is hypocritical he accuses the states of having a messed up racial system, yet he uses it to classify himself.

Makayla what you say about egyptians of today is true. Egypt today is diverse of many different groups of ppls, from east african looking ppl to mullauto types. Delta is also diverse today. Falhien in the delta can also look black and mullauto. Egypt is no different from Brazil, Puerto Rico, or Cuba, in terms of diversity.

Egypt will is and will always be an African Nation no matter who invades it. The Nile runs throught Africa not the Middle East. The Nile is the reason Egypt survives today aswell as many other African Nations. The Nile is an AfriCAN River.

quote:

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Originally posted by fareed:
Makayla, welcome to Egyptsearch.

Just a few thoughts and comments regarding your posting. First, for a 13 year old, you seem to be very articulate, but are these your own words or did you get help from some grown up person, in order to phrase your argument. My reason for asking is that over here on Egyptsearch, we have heard the same comments from a variety of people, who simply copy and paste, without actually understanding the bias behind these words.

Also, you seem to be so sure of your family heritage and exact composition, which I find very hard to believe, because very few Egyptians can claim such knowledge without being psychics. You have no idea, why you look like an African American and why - there may be a little more Black African heritage in your background than you're willing to admit, because the AE's imported a large number of Negroes into Egypt, and many of them never left the country.

I'm an Egyptian myself, and I find your words to be very biased and hard to believe that no one helped you with this assignment.

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posted 06 July 2005 10:31 AM            

You are the wisdom of the future. Whatever you age, insight is vision so I bow to you.
As I said before Africa is Africa so why are those who claim to be be part of it deny it in their view?

Persians and Turks know Africa is 'bilad e sudan' so why are some afraid of this?
A german who comes to america is a german american or european american.
an egyptian who comes to america is an african american or an egyptian american! the hypocracy of democracy is that we should all be americans so forget the hyphenation. Lies about freedom and culture.

Please do not use the modern description of Anglo-Saxon hegemony and mix with the ancient culture knowledge. They are not compatible as they are based on Eurocentric modes of deception. Keeping in mind Europe has positive things that can be emulated and negative things that must be avoided!
Also included is North America.

posted 06 July 2005 11:51 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by osirion:
Welcome Makayla.

I am interested in hearing more about Copts. It would seem to me that many Jewish people in Egypt would have become Copts as well. I can also see why Copts would disassociate themselves from the Arab and claim Black African heritage. However, it also seems to me that many Copts would be related to me and thus mixed. Also, wouldn't Copts have a tendency to be more pure Egyptian if they didn't mix with Turk and Arab muslims? Just wondering if that makes any sense? But at the same time wouldn't Copts marry Jews?

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thanks. Copts usually do connect themselves more with black Africans because we're the ones that have the purest Egyptian ancestry (mostly, not meant as an overgeneralization) and we weren't affected by the Arabs. this is because most of the Arabs in Egypt are Muslims and they are the ones that came later.

Copts don't always marry Jews, but some Jews switched to Copts. so yes there would be a chance of mixture but it's not the case with me.

Ausar, i'll consider answering that.

posted 06 July 2005 11:56 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AMR1:
From the outside appearings, no one including Egyptians well know the difference between a Muslim and a Christain.

Yet all the Copts who leave Egypt, leave with it their Arabic identity and look for another identity for themselves and for their ancestors.

You are obviously either not 13 or some one wrote this post for you. Being a Copt, explains a lot why you identify with the afro Centric view of Egypt.

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because as a Copt i recognize that i have no Arab admixture and that the Muslims in Egypt are a result of Arab invasions and many Egyptians switching to Arab religions and culture.

and as for you thinking a 13 year old can't back up her argument well, that's your problem. because i have supplied much more evidence to back myself up than you have and i've yet to see you actually prove me wrong.

posted 06 July 2005 12:54 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian:
...and as for you thinking a 13 year old can't back up her argument well, that's your problem. because i have supplied much more evidence to back myself up than you have and i've yet to see you actually prove me wrong.

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posted 06 July 2005 01:03 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian:
because as a Copt i recognize that i have no Arab admixture and that the Muslims in Egypt are a result of Arab invasions and many Egyptians switching to Arab religions and culture.

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I am a proud muslim, and the reason copts and muslims look the same is because we both mixed with foriegn mixtures, u guys might not have not mixed with arabs, but u mixed with others, like greeks, turks, and persians.

posted 06 July 2005 02:22 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by multisphinx:
Welcome Makayla,

Plz excuse this ignorant fool. He is amazed a young man like yourself has more knowlege of egypt then himself. Its good to see the youth knowing what their heritage is. Fareed is a wannabe white boi, in other words he wants to be white and have nothing to do with Africa. He is hypocritical he accuses the states of having a messed up racial system, yet he uses it to classify himself.

Makayla what you say about egyptians of today is true. Egypt today is diverse of many different groups of ppls, from east african looking ppl to mullauto types. Delta is also diverse today. Falhien in the delta can also look black and mullauto. Egypt is no different from Brazil, Puerto Rico, or Cuba, in terms of diversity.

Egypt will is and will always be an African Nation no matter who invades it. The Nile runs throught Africa not the Middle East. The Nile is the reason Egypt survives today aswell as many other African Nations. The Nile is an AfriCAN River.

[This message has been edited by multisphinx (edited 06 July 2005).]

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i agree with everything you said. i have always been connected to my heritage and it angers me to read these threads here and see constant lies told (and believed) about my heritage. Egypt may not be considered an African nation by the government but it always will be connected to its past, no matter what the future holds for it.

posted 06 July 2005 04:19 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian:
Egypt may not be considered an African nation by the government but it always will be connected to its past, no matter what the future holds for it.

Makayla

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Actually Egypt is part of the African Union, just as any other African nation. So one can at least say, the Government, whatever its socio-political viewpoint and policies, isn't deluded to the point of not being aware that they are Africans, as long as they call themselves 'Egyptians'. That title is indigenous to Africa. Those who don't want to be identified with it, have a choice: seek citizenship outside Africa. It is that simple.

posted 07 July 2005 06:33 AM            

Now, I have my own feelings that you're attending an Inner City Public School System, that is teaching you this Afrocentric Perspective. Here, I would like to share with you the flip side of this narrow point of view from more mainstream people, who are very familiar with this movement. Enjoy!

quote:

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Bernard Ortiz De Montellano, an Hispanic anthropologist, argues that these Afrocentric claims are classic instances of "scientific illiteracy" that universities should resist being pressed to teach. "Minorities are already greatly under-represented in science and engineering," Montellano writes. "Teaching them pseudoscience will make it much more difficult for these young people to pursue scientific curricula. "

The tragedy of Afrocentrism for blacks is that, in the name of promoting group pride, it provides young people with falsehoods that undercut the accumulation of real knowledge -- and the achievement and self- respect that real knowledge brings. Rather than preparing black students for the challenges of living in modern civilization, Anthony Appiah points out, Afrocentrists instead teach them languages that are hardly spoken anywhere and concepts that are "a composite of truth and error, insight and illusion, moral generosity and meanness."

Despite their interest in the ancient world, Afrocentrists appear to have missed one of the most important lessons we can learn from the ancients -- the acknowledgment of civilizational differences combined with a refusal to reduce these to biological characteristics. "The ancient Egyptian lack of color prejudice should serve as a salutary lesson for us today," Frank Yurco says. "They would have considered this Afrocentric argument absurd, and this is something we could really learn from." Instead, Afro-centrists insist upon projecting their own racial nomenclature and obsession onto the ancients, invoking them to justify contemporary assertions of black militancy.

Afrocentrism is thus both pathetic and formidable. Pathetic because it offers young blacks nothing in the way of knowledge and skills that are required by modern life; formidable, because it offers them racial dynamite instead: a fortified chauvinism, a hardened conspiratorial mindset, and a robotic dedication to ideologies of blackness. The "revolutionary commitment" to which Molefi Asante refers is evident in the hardened gleam in many Afrocentric eyes. Afrocentrists exhibit a virtually cultic pattern of lockstep behavior: everyone dresses alike, and when the leader laughs, everyone laughs. Gradually but unmistakably, Afrocentrists are severing the bonds of empathy and understanding that are the basis for coexistence and cooperation in a multiracial society. Meanwhile, the real needs of blacks -- and the hard work of meeting them -- are being neglected.

ILLUSTRATION: Portrait of an Egyptian, from a mummy found at Hawara, painted about 150 A. D. Afrocentrists insist that ancient Egypt was a Negroid culture. Actually, experts say, it was a multiracial Mediterranean civilization.

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posted 07 July 2005 07:34 AM            

Why must you project your own racial identity that is shaped by your American Cultural upbringing and schooling on all the people of Egypt, whose majority disagree with your points of view.

quote:

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i'm mostly Egyptian, mixed with some European far back. i have caramel skin, thick "African" lips, a semi-flat nose, and tight kinky hair. the only African in me is Egyptian, and i'm not mixed with Sudanese or Arab either. my grandparents came from Luxor. much of Egypt's rural population is very black, just not the larger cities of Cairo and Alexandria. that's due to Arab mixture which didn't effect all of the population? and to write them all off as Nubians is wrong, they are Egyptians and are the closest racially to the Ancient Egyptians.

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quote:

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Originally posted by walklikeanegyptian:

[]Fareed, i already know about my background so i don't need you telling me what i should or shouldn't think. that's up to me, not you. i know what is true, not about all Egyptians but about myself, and you should just end it right there.[]

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posted 07 July 2005 07:42 AM            

Most of the Delta's rural population is actually very light and Caucasoid looking. Have you done any travelling in Egypt at all?

Also, the vast majority of Egypt's people live in Lower Egypt and MOST OF THEM ARE NOT EVEN REMOTELY BLACK.

quote:

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Makayla Wrote:

much of Egypt's rural population is very black, just not the larger cities of Cairo and Alexandria.

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posted 07 July 2005 07:49 AM            

Most of the city dwellers have origins in Rural Egypt, with a few exceptions.

Btw, you can ask Ausar about this, but foreigners were scattered all over Egypt, even Luxor, Aswan, and Nubia had their share.

Foreigners, included, Black Africans, Europeans, Arabs, and others.

There is a very good chance that you have more Foreign Blood due to your Black African ancestary than due to anything else.

posted 07 July 2005 08:09 AM            

quote:

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Here...I am from the South of Egypt...near the Aswan area...and I just wanted to show you that over here in America...I am black...according to the Americans definition of "black" but when I go to Egypt...no one questions my ethnicity....there is a good percentage of Egyptians that can pass for blacks in America....but when people start saying that an Egyptian born and raised in Egypt is not REALLY egyptian because he is light skinned is ridiculous...you are then attacking his nationality and culture....anyways....just lighten up on the Egyptians from the Lower Egypt region...were all real Egyptians no matter where you are from in Egypt...

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posted 07 July 2005 03:33 PM            

quote:

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Where do you think most of the people of the larger cities come from, Arabia, Turkey, Greece, and the Levant?

Most of the city dwellers have origins in Rural Egypt, with a few exceptions.

Btw, you can ask Ausar about this, but foreigners were scattered all over Egypt, even Luxor, Aswan, and Nubia had their share.

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Yes, during the dyanstic period there were foreigners living in various parts of Egypt,but mostly in Lower Egypt around the big cities like Men-nefer and the Delta that experiance regular migration from Libyans and Caanites that settled there.

quote:

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Foreigners, included, Black Africans, Europeans, Arabs, and others.

There is a very good chance that you have more Foreign Blood due to your Black African ancestary than due to anything else.

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There is a good chance that Lower Egyptians have Greek,Syrian,and more Eur-Asian foreign ancestry than somebody living in Southern Upper Egypt. Most likely a Lower Egyptian probably even has more Nubian admixture than Upper Egyptians because throughout the Islamic period Nubians settled in Al-Qahria. Not to mention white slaves were imported into the cities of Cairo during all periods. As were Sudanese ones that worked in the houses of the Pashas. So the Cairene Egyptians are mixed with more than just Eur-Asian but probably Nubians as well.

During the pre-dyanstic period most of the skeletal remains in Upper Egypt were tropical African in origin. So to say that modern Upper Egyptians are dark skinned because of Nubian admixture is absurb.

quote:

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Why don't you accept the fact that you're mixed and most likely you have more Black African Admixture than most Egyptians, due the simple fact that Luxor is right next door to Nubia and Nubians are very dark skinned compared to average Egyptians.

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The admixture of the Luxor Egyptians comes from pre-dyanstic times and not from recent Nubian admixture. Cairo and the Delta are just across from the Sinai and Israel,and why don't you accept that you are probably more Levantine and Mediterranean than usual because of admixture from Eur-Asian populations.

Negriod types always existed in Upper Egypt from the pre-dyanstic down to dynastic period. Its easier to prove Southern Egyptians are indigenous than heavily Eur-Asian influenced Lower Egyptians.

quote:

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Why must you project your own racial identity that is shaped by your American Cultural upbringing and schooling on all the people of Egypt, whose majority disagree with your points of view.

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Why do you have to put European cultural baggae and classifications upon the Egyptian population with terms like ''caucasoid''. This whole term was coined by Johannes Blumebach but you enjoy using this term. This is a double standard that you employ.

Again opinions of modern Egyptians have no bearing on ancient Egypt,nor should be used according to most Egyptologist. Modern Egyptians living in Lower Egypt do have ancient Egyptian ancestry but donot pocess the phenotype of the ancient Egyptians.