posted 11 August 2005 03:18 PM            

I knew that Amon was the greatest god of the Berbers, but I'm wondering why he is just known as an Egyptian god.

It is worth nothing that "amon" was worshiped by the ancient egyptians and the early berbers (who were known as "libyans"). therefor we can speak of two "amon's", amon of the berbers/libyans and amon of the early egyptians (the modern Egypt is not the same as the ancient Egypt).

It would, eventually, be strange to say the most famous amon was the berber amon, nevertheless it is a fact. The "amon" who was worshiped by many peoples like as the Punics, the Romans (the Roman equivalent of the berber amon was "Jupiter") and the Greeks (The berber amon was compared by the Greeks with their uppergod "Zeus").

It is an historically fact the Greeks headed by alexander the great had crossed the desert to Siwa (an oasis that is inhabited by the berbers from the down of the history to the present day) for asking the blesses from the priests of the Siwan amon to be succesful in their invasion against Egypt. Alexander the great has been claimed to be the son of Zeus/amon in the temple of the siwan priests...

the famous berber tribe that had worshiped the god amon was called "nasamon" (nas amon), it might mean "the revelotion of amon" in the berber language ...

thus, we can conclude through this introduction that amon was not just the greatest god of the berbers, but also the greatest god of the ancient world. Besides, there are many experts (like as G. Camps) who tends to emphasize the berber origin of amon that also -like as it is known- was worshiped by the early egyptians.

My quetion -just fot the discussion- is: why is this fact usually negleged ?

--
i know that my english is incorrect, but i believe it is understhandable, i hope .

posted 11 August 2005 08:37 PM            

Some rock art in the Central Sahara dated to the Bubaline period seem to indicate a deity with curved horns like Amun. Possible Central Saharan origin of Amun is definately possible.

Its definately possible that Amun was shared by all three of these group without them all being the same in origin. However, I tend to favor a Nubian origin for Amun because Amun became popular around the 12th dyansty. Some scholars speculate that Amun was introduced around this time period. Although, Amun does appear about the Old Kingdom in the Pyramid texts.

Don't forget that after the Ramesside period many of the pharaohs of Egypt were Libyan in origin. The adoption of Amun might have occured at this time period.

posted 12 August 2005 09:28 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

The Amon of the Berbers might just be an adaption of an already ancient Egyptian deity.

---

quote:

---

For Amun I tend to favor a more Nubian origin because the Nubians themselves had an indigenous Ram deity like Amon called Amani.

---

quote:

---

Its definately possible that Amun was shared by all three of these group without them all being the same in origin.

---

quote:

---

Don't forget that after the Ramesside period many of the pharaohs of Egypt were Libyan in origin. The adoption of Amun might have occured at this time period.

---

By the way, some scholars believe that original worshipers of Amon in Thebe are of Berber origin who immigrated to Egypt.

posted 12 August 2005 09:49 AM            

The Berbers/Libyans chiefs were mentioned by their two plumes:

Amon was also mentioned by that berber/libyan carachteristic: "the two plumes":

You would say that is a comon charachteristic, because other Egyptian gods are also mentioned with their two plumes, like as: Horus and Osiris.., but that is not sufficient enough to deny the berber origin of that tradition, because those plumes were a symbol of the power in the berber/libyan culture, moreover those gods like as "Osiris", "Horus".. are considered by some scholars to be of berber/libyan origin.

[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 12 August 2005).]

posted 12 August 2005 11:47 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

The Amon of the Berbers might just be an adaption of an already ancient Egyptian deity.

Yes, that is possible, like it is possible that Amon of the Egyptians would just be an adaptation of an already ancient berber deity

---

Maybe. But the question is how can we prove that the deity whorshiped in ancient Egypt is the same as the ancient Egyptians? Would they have adopted it from the Tehennu or Tamahou. The Tehennu were the first Libyan groups that the ancient Egyptians came incontact with.

There is rock art found in the Central Sahara during the Bubaline period that shows ram horns and discs but should we connect the following with Amun of later periods?

quote:

---

For Amun I tend to favor a more Nubian origin because the Nubians themselves had an indigenous Ram deity like Amon called Amani.

That is also possible, but i don't share this meaning, because there is no known event who can show his influence in Nubia. (I just have no idee).

---

The same is also true for the so-called Berber origins of Amun. What we do know is that the 18th dyansty when they finally conquered up to the Third cataract they found the Nubians whorshiping a ram like deity of their own. Thothmoses III identified this ram deity with Amun and identified Gebel Barkal as the home of this deity.

quote:

---

Its definately possible that Amun was shared by all three of these group without them all being the same in origin.
That amon was worshiped by the Egyptians and the berber isn't a possipibilty but a known fact

---

Yes, but did it come from the fact that the Berbers of the Siwa Oasis already had an existing deity like Amun and later when they were Egyptianized they identified Amun with their own deity? We know the Garamantes in the Central Sahara of Fezzan adopted Amun from the Egyptians.

quote:

---

Don't forget that after the Ramesside period many of the pharaohs of Egypt were Libyan in origin. The adoption of Amun might have occured at this time period.
Amon was already worshiped by the berbers/libyans.

By the way, some scholars believe that original worshipers of Amon in Thebe are of Berber origin who immigrated to Egypt

---

Again, I ask what proof do you have that the Berber deity was similar to the ancient Egyptian deity?

Please cite your reference for the Libyan origin of the Amun whorshipers in Waset[Thebes].

You have to be careful about taking little physical chracteristics and using it to connect populations together. Many deities were shown with plumbed feathers,and that includes even deities like Het-hor when in human form. You also had various animal components that were also shown with deities. At different periods throughout the dyansties different deities were shown in different forms.

The representations of Libyans you are showing are the Tamahou which date to around the 18th dyansty. Previously in ancient Egyptian artwork the Libyans such as the Tehennu were not shown as wearing two plumes,but uraeus like crowns. Deities like Heru[Horus],Ausar[Osiris], and Amun existed before the New Kingdom representations of the Libyans.

The only deities in ancient Egypt that have a definite Libyan origin is Neith and Ash. However, even these are contested by many scholars because sometimes to show domination over people ancient Egyptians would attach deities to people they traditionally considered foreigners and enemies.

posted 12 August 2005 01:33 PM            

quote:

---

Maybe. But the question is how can we prove that the deity whorshiped in ancient Egypt is the same as the ancient Egyptians?

---

It is difficult to prove that. but we can trustly say there is an old relationship between the encient egyptians and the berbers. their language are close to together. Oric bats noted that the relationship between the berber- and the egyptian pantheon is colser than the relationship between the pantheon of the semtics. (something like this).

The archeology tends to emphazise the berber origin of amon because the oldest drawings of the rams in country of the berbers is about 9000 years old. and i don't think there is such old drawings in Egypt.

Some historic facts are also helpful. Why did the greeks and the romans worshiped the berber amon and not the egyptian amon ? this shows us that berber amon was more important than the egyptian amon.
By the way, the berber amon is mixed by the greeks with their greatest god "Zeus", and that did also the Romans with their god Jupiter and Punics also did mixed their greatest god "Baal" with the berber amon. It is remarkable that the egyptians mixed their god "Ra" with the god amon, but the berber didn't mixed hem with any god. Can this mean that amon was to the egyptians like as he was to the greeks, romans and punics whereas the berber didn't had to mix hem with any other indegenous god, because he himself was an indegenous god to the berbers ?

quote:

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Would they have adopted it from the Tehennu or Tamahou. The Tehennu were the first Libyan groups that the ancient Egyptians came incontact with.

---

You say that in the light of the egyptian inscriptions that called that libyan/tribe in about 3000 b.c., they are called in the oldest egyptian document. but this does't mean that they the first libyan that they came in contact with. Some archeologists believe that ancient egyptians came in contact with the libyans in olde times. some of them believe that the egyptian pharao's were of libyan race, and by the way some experts suggest that the people of thebe were libyans who immigrated to egypt in encient unknown times, and that libyans brought the god amon with to egypt, and that god wasn't important in the beginning, whereas there is no known berber/libyan god that was more important than amon to the berbers. It is also useful to note that the berbers had no green country like as the encient egyptians who were happy with their prolific country because of the nile-river (egypt is the gift of the nile likes as herodotus said). this suggest that the immigration would logical be from the country of the berbers to the country of the egyptians. so, it is logical to say that amon ,that would be brought one of them because of the immigration, is immigrated from the poor country of the berbers to the prolific country of the egyptians and not the contrary.

quote:

---

There is rock art found in the Central Sahara during the Bubaline period that shows ram horns and discs but should we connect the following with Amun of later periods?

---

quote:

---

The same is also true for the so-called Berber origins of Amun. What we do know is that the 18th dyansty when they finally conquered up to the Third cataract they found the Nubians whorshiping a ram like deity of their own. Thothmoses III identified this ram deity with Amun and identified Gebel Barkal as the home of this deity.

---

Amon was the central god of the berbers, and the greatest known god to the berbers.

quote:

---

Yes, but did it come from the fact that the Berbers of the Siwa Oasis already had an existing deity like Amun and later when they were Egyptianized they identified Amun with their own deity?

---

further, amon was not just worshiped by the siwans by all the berbers from morocco to siwa. (siwa is up to now not egyptianized, the egyptians are arabised, but the siwans are still having thei berber identitiy).

quote:

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We know the Garamantes in the Central Sahara of Fezzan adopted Amun from the Egyptians.

---

quote:

---

Again, I ask what proof do you have that the Berber deity was similar to the ancient Egyptian deity? [quote]
it is an ondesputable fact. the name is the same, and the symbol is the same. and the experts believe that there is some difference between the two, but they don't doubt their unity.

[quote]
[]Please cite your reference for the Libyan origin of the Amun whorshipers in Waset[Thebes].

---

quote:

---

You have to be careful about taking little physical chracteristics and using it to connect populations together. Many deities were shown with plumbed feathers,and that includes even deities like Het-hor when in human form. You also had various animal components that were also shown with deities. At different periods throughout the dyansties different deities were shown in different forms.

---

quote:

---

The representations of Libyans you are showing are the Tamahou which date to around the 18th dyansty. Previously in ancient Egyptian artwork the Libyans such as the Tehennu were not shown as wearing two plumes,but uraeus like crowns. Deities like Heru[Horus],Ausar[Osiris], and Amun existed before the New Kingdom representations of the Libyans.

---

quote:

---

The only deities in ancient Egypt that have a definite Libyan origin is Neith and Ash. However, even these are contested by many scholars because sometimes to show domination over people ancient Egyptians would attach deities to people they traditionally considered foreigners and enemies.

---

posted 12 August 2005 01:42 PM            

quote:

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is difficult to prove that. but we can trustly say there is an old relationship between the encient egyptians and the berbers

---

The Tehenu who can be directly connect to the Siwa and Taureg, YES.

The Tamhou? ? ? Far from certain.

posted 12 August 2005 02:12 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
The Tehenu who can be directly connect to the [b]Siwa and Taureg, YES.

The Tamhou? ? ? Far from certain.

PS - many of your 'berber' questions are answered in the old thread linked above. if you really want answers, then you should read them.[/B]

---

Maybe, but i prefer the argument more than the answers.
the siwans belongs probably to zenata-tribe.

posted 12 August 2005 02:15 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mazigh:
Maybe, but i prefer the argument more than the answers.

---

Yes, I know you do.

Unfortuntately for you, not caring for the answers, you are unable to argue with them.

posted 12 August 2005 02:28 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:

So what's the point?[/B]

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posted 12 August 2005 02:42 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Thanks, no.

---

see some pages of this book:
interesting, i find ! by Helene E Hagan.

The Shining Ones: An Etymological Essay on the Amazigh Roots of Egyptian Civilization by Helene E Hagan.

posted 12 August 2005 03:46 PM            

quote:

---

Please cite your reference for the Libyan origin of the Amun whorshipers in Waset[Thebes].

---

Note: I didn't read that book, it was just a given reference for that claim, and i also did that here again.

posted 12 August 2005 04:21 PM            

[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 12 August 2005).]

posted 12 August 2005 06:20 PM            

quote:

---

It is difficult to prove that. but we can trustly say there is an old relationship between the encient egyptians and the berbers. their language are close to together. Oric bats noted that the relationship between the berber- and the egyptian pantheon is colser than the relationship between the pantheon of the semtics. (something like this)

---

Many older scholars noted many things. Of course there is a old relationship linguistically between Tamazigh and ancient Egyptian simply because both are Afro-Asiatic languages. You might also find resemblence between Beja and Chadic which are both Afro-asiatic languages.

quote:

---

Some historic facts are also helpful. Why did the greeks and the romans worshiped the berber amon and not the egyptian amon ? this shows us that berber amon was more important than the egyptian amon.

By the way, the berber amon is mixed by the greeks with their greatest god "Zeus", and that did also the Romans with their god Jupiter and Punics also did mixed their greatest god "Baal" with the berber amon. It is remarkable that the egyptians mixed their god "Ra" with the god amon, but the berber didn't mixed hem with any god. Can this mean that amon was to the egyptians like as he was to the greeks, romans and punics whereas the berber didn't had to mix hem with any other indegenous god, because he himself was an indegenous god to the berbers ?

---

By the time that the Greeks and Romans had gotten to Egypt, the Libyans had ruled Egypt and even intermarried in with the God Wives of Amun. The preponderance of evidence is to prove a Libyan origin of Amun. Because Amun was important to the Greeks or Romans does not mean anything. Greeks and Romans were foreigners in Egypt that barely understood the language of the priests.

The Oasis areas like Siwa were already Egyptianized during this period. You mention in you later post that modern Siwa speak Berber which is true,but this means nothing. The areas of Gaza and Byblos located in Palestine and modern lebanon were Egyptinized too. The Caanites even adopted iconography and deities from the ancient Egypt,and yet it did not change their language.

quote:

---

You say that in the light of the egyptian inscriptions that called that libyan/tribe in about 3000 b.c., they are called in the oldest egyptian document. but this does't mean that they the first libyan that they came in contact with. Some archeologists believe that ancient egyptians came in contact with the libyans in olde times. some of them believe that the egyptian pharao's were of libyan race, and by the way some experts suggest that the people of thebe were libyans who immigrated to egypt in encient unknown times, and that libyans brought the god amon with to egypt, and that god wasn't important in the beginning, whereas there is no known berber/libyan god that was more important than amon to the berbers

---

Problem is the further you go back in ancient Egyptian history there is not much documentation. Meaning that all we have is archaeology to determine who migrated into Egypt. Trying to connect modern ethnic groups to these pre-dyanstic Egypt is very difficult since Libyans nor Berbers existed during this period.

Honestly, its also rather sketchy to try to establish connection with ancient Libyans and any modern Amazigh group.

If we do suppose that Libyans are Berber then it would appear that Libyans migrated into Egypt during the dyanstic era and came to Egypt as mercenaries. There was large movement of Libyans into Egypt during the late New Kingdom. Otherwise Libyans were part of the nine-bows and considered as foreigners in Egypt. Assimilated Libyans were not considered choatic like unassimilated Libyans. You see to the ancient Egyptians all foreigners were isofret[chasos] that needed to be balanced by the pharaoh[Ma'at] There are some instances that the Meswesh keep some of their ethnic chracter in ancient Egyptian soceity.

The Libyan pharaohs that ruled Egypt did not place much emphasis on Amun but did on Bastet. Infact, around Zagazig[then Per-Bastet] they established whorship here. This makes prefect sense considering that many modern Saharan Berber tribes consider cats to be sacred and have magical powers.

quote:

---

It is also useful to note that the berbers had no green country like as the encient egyptians who were happy with their prolific country because of the nile-river (egypt is the gift of the nile likes as herodotus said). this suggest that the immigration would logical be from the country of the berbers to the country of the egyptians. so, it is logical to say that amon ,that would be brought one of them because of the immigration, is immigrated from the poor country of the berbers to the prolific country of the egyptians and not the contrary.

---

Maybe. But when do you think this immigration was ? What time period? Libyans did migrate into Egypt as economic refugees and mercenaries. Depictions on the Tombs of 5th dyansty pharaohs show Libyans migrating into Egypt. How would these mercenaries influence the priesthood? Since unassimilated foreigners were not allowed in the temple or priesthood.

quote:

---

it is also supposed that amon was the fruit of ancient peopeles that lived in the pre-sahara like as the berbers and the egyptians

---

Again the term Berber is subjective label given to various ethnic groups across North-western Africa. From what I understand each Berber calls themselves something different in their own language. The Amazigh label is actually a Kaybele word that means free- people. Shuluh,Riffi,and Tuareg call themselves something different.

According to what I have read the Sahara had more than just proto-Berber people living there when it was once more fertile. Even many ancestors of modern Sahelian Africans like the Fulani and others come from the Sahara.

quote:

---

but it is clearly that amon was worshiped by the berbers without any doubt. some berber tribes were mybe called to him like as the "nasamon: nas + amon". Amon was maybe worshiped by berbers of the canary islands (guanches)

---

Where is your reference that the word Nasamon actually has connection to Amun? Do you think the Nasamons would have called themselves this? Do we know what their original name was? Where is the archaeological proof they whorshiped a deity like Amun?

quote:

---

Amon was the central god of the berbers, and the greatest known god to the berbers

---

How do you know that the deity of the imazghen was the same Amun as in Egypt?

quote:

---

it seems that you doubt that amon of the berbers is not the known amon. the famous amon is adapted by the greeks and the romans, from the Siwans. Herodotus called him "zeus of siwa".

further, amon was not just worshiped by the siwans by all the berbers from morocco to siwa. (siwa is up to now not egyptianized, the egyptians are arabised, but the siwans are still having thei berber identitiy)

---

Ancient Greeks also identified Amun with Hercules. How do we know the deity whorshiped by the Berbers is the same as the Amun of ancient Egypt?

quote:

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sorry, this fact isn't known to me. their name "garamant" is maybe related to the god amon (gara+aman)

---

Garmantes is a term that the Greeks applied to a civlization around modern day Fezzan Libya. This is not what the people called themselves. The Garamantes did leave some writing behind. Perhaps the writing will give us more clues to their own self idenity.

Around the same time the Garamantes existed was also a civlization im Meroe. Even the miniture pyramids are like the ones the people of Meroe built. The Garamantes could have adopted Amun from the people of Meroe.

quote:

---

first of all, they the libou not the tamahou. and those plumes are deeply in the ancient berber culture, it is the symbol of the power. the ancient egyptians seems to be impressed with those plumes. if i remember well, the plume was the symbol of the west, because the berber with their plumes on their heads lived in the west

---

The Lebou was a generic term for all Libyan tribes wheather Tehennu,Tamahou or Meswesh. Tehennu and Tamahou were two different groups and represented differently in ancient Egyptian iconography.

Do you have a reference about plumes being a symbol of power to the ancient Libyans? How do we know this since the Libyans had no written language of their own? The designation for all foreigners was the throw stick of the ancient Egyptians.

quote:

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like as you say, even if the egyptians did said they are libyans, that is not enough. other examples in other cultures are poseidon, atlas, athena...

[qoute]
There is rock art found in the Central Sahara during the Bubaline period that shows ram horns and discs but should we connect the following with Amun of later periods?

---

[This message has been edited by Mazigh[/quote]

Like I mentioned we do know of two definite deities of Libyan origin in ancient Egypt and that is Neith and Ash. The connection of Amun to Berbers is speculation,but does need further inquiry. I am definately open to this being a reality but I need some concrete proof before I jumped to conclusions.

Thanks for having this debate with me.

posted 12 August 2005 08:17 PM            

quote:

---

Many older scholars noted many things. Of course there is a old relationship linguistically between Tamazigh and ancient Egyptian simply because both are Afro-Asiatic languages. You might also find resemblence between Beja and Chadic which are both Afro-asiatic languages.

---

quote:

---

By the time that the Greeks and Romans had gotten to Egypt, the Libyans had ruled Egypt and even intermarried in with the God Wives of Amun. The preponderance of evidence is to prove a Libyan origin of Amun. Because Amun was important to the Greeks or Romans does not mean anything. Greeks and Romans were foreigners in Egypt that barely understood the language of the priests.

---

quote:

---

The Oasis areas like Siwa were already Egyptianized during this period. You mention in you later post that modern Siwa speak Berber which is true,but this means nothing. The areas of Gaza and Byblos located in Palestine and modern lebanon were Egyptinized too. The Caanites even adopted iconography and deities from the ancient Egypt,and yet it did not change their language.

---

quote:

---

Problem is the further you go back in ancient Egyptian history there is not much documentation. Meaning that all we have is archaeology to determine who migrated into Egypt. Trying to connect modern ethnic groups to these pre-dyanstic Egypt is very difficult since Libyans nor Berbers existed during this period.

---

quote:

---

Honestly, its also rather sketchy to try to establish connection with ancient Libyans and any modern Amazigh group.

---

quote:

---

If we do suppose that Libyans are Berber then it would appear that Libyans migrated into Egypt during the dyanstic era and came to Egypt as mercenaries. There was large movement of Libyans into Egypt during the late New Kingdom. Otherwise Libyans were part of the nine-bows and considered as foreigners in Egypt. Assimilated Libyans were not considered choatic like unassimilated Libyans. You see to the ancient Egyptians all foreigners were isofret[chasos] that needed to be balanced by the pharaoh[Ma'at] There are some instances that the Meswesh keep some of their ethnic chracter in ancient Egyptian soceity.

The Libyan pharaohs that ruled Egypt did not place much emphasis on Amun but did on Bastet. Infact, around Zagazig[then Per-Bastet] they established whorship here. This makes prefect sense considering that many modern Saharan Berber tribes consider cats to be sacred and have magical powers.

---

quote:

---

Maybe. But when do you think this immigration was ? What time period? Libyans did migrate into Egypt as economic refugees and mercenaries. Depictions on the Tombs of 5th dyansty pharaohs show Libyans migrating into Egypt. How would these mercenaries influence the priesthood? Since unassimilated foreigners were not allowed in the temple or priesthood.

---

quote:

---

Again the term Berber is subjective label given to various ethnic groups across North-western Africa. From what I understand each Berber calls themselves something different in their own language. The Amazigh label is actually a Kaybele word that means free- people. Shuluh,Riffi,and Tuareg call themselves something different.

---

quote:

---

According to what I have read the Sahara had more than just proto-Berber people living there when it was once more fertile. Even many ancestors of modern Sahelian Africans like the Fulani and others come from the Sahara.[quote]
sure, they was in the begining untill about 5000 B.C a black people. after 5000 B.C appeared a white people. according to the algerian archeolgist the proto-berbers and the proto-egyptyans lived together in common country, in the time of the sahara those peoples had to immigrate to survive. it is also believed that egyptian civilisation had its base in the big sahara.

[quote]
Where is your reference that the word Nasamon actually has connection to Amun?

---

quote:

---

Do you think the Nasamons would have called themselves this?

---

quote:

---

Do we know what their original name was?

---

quote:

---

Where is the archaeological proof they whorshiped a deity like Amun?

---

quote:

---

How do you know that the deity of the imazghen was the same Amun as in Egypt?

---

quote:

---

Ancient Greeks also identified Amun with Hercules. How do we know the deity whorshiped by the Berbers is the same as the Amun of ancient Egypt?

---

quote:

---

Garmantes is a term that the Greeks applied to a civlization around modern day Fezzan Libya. This is not what the people called themselves. The Garamantes did leave some writing behind. Perhaps the writing will give us more clues to their own self idenity.

---

quote:

---

Around the same time the Garamantes existed was also a civlization im Meroe. Even the miniture pyramids are like the ones the people of Meroe built. The Garamantes could have adopted Amun from the people of Meroe.

---

quote:

---

The Lebou was a generic term for all Libyan tribes wheather Tehennu,Tamahou or Meswesh. Tehennu and Tamahou were two different groups and represented differently in ancient Egyptian iconography.

---

quote:

---

Do you have a reference about plumes being a symbol of power to the ancient Libyans?

---

quote:

---

How do we know this since the Libyans had no written language of their own?

---

quote:

---

Like I mentioned we do know of two definite deities of Libyan origin in ancient Egypt and that is Neith and Ash. The connection of Amun to Berbers is speculation,but does need further inquiry.

---

[qoute]
I am definately open to this being a reality but I need some concrete proof before I jumped to conclusions.[/quote]not needed . you did got the articles of the historians. if you informations are stronger than my corrections and the clear articles, you can do more efforrt to get the sure answer.

quote:

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Thanks for having this debate with me.

---

posted 14 August 2005 01:21 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ausar:

The Amon of the Berbers might just be an adaption of an already ancient Egyptian deity. For Amun I tend to favor a more Nubian origin because the Nubians themselves had an indigenous Ram deity like Amon called Amani. That is because when Thutmoses III conquered up to the Third Cataract in Nubia he considered Gebel Barkal to be the inhabitance of Amun.

Some rock art in the Central Sahara dated to the Bubaline period seem to indicate a deity with curved horns like Amun. Possible Central Saharan origin of Amun is definately possible.

Its definately possible that Amun was shared by all three of these group without them all being the same in origin. However, I tend to favor a Nubian origin for Amun because Amun became popular around the 12th dyansty. Some scholars speculate that Amun was introduced around this time period. Although, Amun does appear about the Old Kingdom in the Pyramid texts.

Don't forget that after the Ramesside period many of the pharaohs of Egypt were Libyan in origin. The adoption of Amun might have occured at this time period.

---

posted 14 August 2005 07:14 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by kenndo:

I agree.

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posted 14 August 2005 09:09 AM            

I want to ask you if you read these following articles. Did you read them ?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mazigh:
hey ausar,
you can read arabic, therefor i will post some respectful articles, and you will, of course; have to give your meaning or conclusion. so, see:
1
2
3
4

[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 12 August 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 12 August 2005).]

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If you read them, how do you find the contents? are they convincing ?

:>>I'm interested in your opinion !

posted 14 August 2005 09:57 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:

The Amon of the Berbers might just be an adaption of an already ancient Egyptian deity. For Amun I tend to favor a more Nubian origin because the Nubians themselves had an indigenous Ram deity like Amon called Amani. That is because when Thutmoses III conquered up to the Third Cataract in Nubia he considered Gebel Barkal to be the inhabitance of Amun.

Some rock art in the Central Sahara dated to the Bubaline period seem to indicate a deity with curved horns like Amun. Possible Central Saharan origin of Amun is definately possible.

Its definately possible that Amun was shared by all three of these group without them all being the same in origin. However, I tend to favor a Nubian origin for Amun because Amun became popular around the 12th dyansty. Some scholars speculate that Amun was introduced around this time period. Although, Amun does appear about the Old Kingdom in the Pyramid texts.

Don't forget that after the Ramesside period many of the pharaohs of Egypt were Libyan in origin. The adoption of Amun might have occured at this time period.

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quote:

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Kenndo writes: I agree.

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posted 14 August 2005 10:34 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
Most [b]serious scholarship concurs with the above.[/B]

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but your opinions are incorrect. I'll translate some words from the book of mohamed chafik.

"there are two known temples of this god "amon" , the temle of thebes in egypte and the temple of the oasis "siwa". so, wich temple is the oldest? and which of them is the principal temple?. the experts was tending to emphazise his egyptian origin, because they supposed that egypt is the source of the civilisation from the beginning to the end. But now, the experts tend to emphazise that the temple of amon in siwa is the oldest (Camps, I, 215, 216)"more

So, like as you see, your words are incorrect.

posted 14 August 2005 10:46 AM            

Source.

posted 14 August 2005 10:57 AM            

The Siwa Oasis was under the control of the 26th dyansty. After this Siwa remained free from domination of the Persians when they conquered Egypt.

Mazigh, you might want to translate the article from Arabic to English because I am sure more forum members would want to read it. Most of the posters here are English speakers that are unable to read literature in other languages.

posted 14 August 2005 11:19 AM            

I meant this article this article is written by harich mohamed el-hadi).

posted 14 August 2005 11:20 AM            

quote:

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fortunately, you kept follow

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quote:

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but your opinions are incorrect.

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However, if you are looking for something to refute:

FOLLOW THIS:

A history of the Amun/Amon/Amen cult and priesthood
would be revealing.

The root of this lies at Gebel Barkal, a sacred spot near the 4th cataract holy to Amun which linked kingship in Km.t with certain families in Kesh so that we see throughout the history of Km.t

Please refute. If you can.

posted 14 August 2005 12:15 PM            

Source.

There are a number of myths about the founding of this temple. built during the 26th dynasty.

One of them tells of two Black priestesses from the Temple of Amun at Thebes (modern Luxor) who were banished to the desert. In this tell, one of them founded the Temple of Dodona in Greece, where she became the voice of the Oracle. The second, after a time in Libya, came to Siwa where she became the Oracle's sibyl.

posted 14 August 2005 12:57 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mazigh:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rasol:
[b] Most [b]serious scholarship concurs with the above.[/B]

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but your opinions are incorrect. I'll translate some words from the book of mohamed chafik.

"there are two known temples of this god "amon" , the temle of thebes in egypte and the temple of the oasis "siwa". so, wich temple is the oldest? and which of them is the principal temple?. the experts was tending to emphazise his egyptian origin, because they supposed that egypt is the source of the civilisation from the beginning to the end. But now, the experts tend to emphazise that the temple of amon in siwa is the oldest (Camps, I, 215, 216)"more

So, like as you see, your words are incorrect.

[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 14 August 2005).][/B][/QUOTE]

posted 14 August 2005 01:19 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
While you're working on the above, might want to read your own link carefully and refute it as well....
The temple of Amon in Siwa:

There are a number of [b]myths about the founding of this temple. built during the 26th dynasty.

One of them tells of two [b]Black priestesses from the Temple of Amun at Thebes (modern Luxor) who were banished to the desert. In this tell, one of them founded the Temple of Dodona in Greece, where she became the voice of the Oracle. The second, after a time in Libya, came to Siwa where she became the Oracle's sibyl.

Take your time.[/B]

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...+Another tell maintains that the temple existed as early as 1385 BC, and was built in honor of Ham, the son of Noah, by Danaus the Egyptian, while yet another legend relates the founding of the temple to the Greek god Dionysus. While lost in the Western Desert, Dionysus was perishing of thirst when a man appeared and guided him to the spring at Aghurmi. In gratitude, Dionysus erected the temple.

Like as you see, it is not needed to refute it.

by the way i would like to cite this too:
In the mostly abandoned village of Aghurmi in the Siwa Oasis is a most famous temple of Amun, now more known as the Temple of the Oracle because of Alexander's visit when he conquered Egypt.

quote:

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Amon most likely came from a civilization older than libya and egypt and that was in nubia south of egypt.

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posted 14 August 2005 01:35 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mazigh:
yet another legend relates the founding of the temple to the Greek god Dionysus.

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Now you're being silly. And this is why you get nowhere in your attempts to understand history.

You lack the ability and I suspect the desire to make critical distinctions between matters of fact, such as when a temple was built: the 26th dynasty,

and mythologies which are not be be taken literally but rather valued for their insights into subjectives, such as why a temple was built:

Black priestesses from the Temple of Amun at Thebes who were banished to the desert. In this tell, one of them founded the Temple of Dodona in Greece, where she became the voice of the Oracle. The second, after a time in Libya, came to Siwa where she became the Oracle's sibyl. - this is Greek Myth.

Your source flatly contradicts you on both counts, and you either know this and are being dishonest, or simply can't read.

Meanwhile....

The root of this lies at Gebel Barkal, a sacred spot near the 4th cataract holy to Amun which linked kingship in Km.t with certain families in Kesh so that we see throughout the history of Km.t

What's taking so long?

posted 14 August 2005 01:44 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
You lack the ability and I suspect the desire to make critical distinctions between matters of fact, such as when a temple was built: the 26th dynasty,

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posted 14 August 2005 01:57 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mazigh:
But that just is a myth wich is contradicted by onother myth.

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Wrong. It is stated by your source as a common fact:

It sits atop a flat rock, and is a spectacular sight. Built during the 26th Dynasty.

This fact is unrelated to the 'myths' which are related elsewhere in the article.

If you don't know how to distinguish what is stated as fact and what is related as myth, then you don't even understand your own sources.

Much less can you hope to comprehend subtle points of history.

posted 14 August 2005 02:45 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:

Your source flatly contradicts you on both counts, and you either know this and are being dishonest, or simply can't read.

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posted 14 August 2005 05:56 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mazigh:
...+Another tell maintains that the temple existed as early as 1385 BC, and was built [b]in honor of Ham, the son of Noah, by Danaus the Egyptian, while yet another legend relates the founding of the temple to the Greek god Dionysus. While lost in the Western Desert, Dionysus was perishing of thirst when a man appeared and guided him to the spring at Aghurmi. In gratitude, Dionysus erected the temple.

Like as you see, it is not needed to refute it.

by the way i would like to cite this too:
In the mostly abandoned village of Aghurmi in the Siwa Oasis is a most famous temple of Amun, now more known as the Temple of the Oracle because of Alexander's visit when he conquered Egypt.

[QUOTE]Amon most likely came from a civilization older than libya and egypt and that was in nubia south of egypt.

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[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 14 August 2005).][/B][/QUOTE]

THE a group civilization of lower nubia was first started in 3800 b.c.,this is well known if you study recent nubian history,and pre-kerma is a civilization in upper nubia that began around 5000 b.c. but recently it has been known to go back to 8000 b.c.

Egypt began it's civilization around 3500 b.c. in upper egypt about the same as sumer,that is why i think sumer is not really older than egypt AND GO INTO THE search box and look it up, it has been talk about before,but don't let me take you away from your chat dealing with the other issues.carry on.

posted 14 August 2005 07:43 PM            

F_ the previous data supported by the classic texts which relate between the amon's cult at the maghribains and the sheep. "macrobe" told us that the libyans symbolised the god amon with the horns of the sheep, whereas "sarfius" who was more concrete said <<the libyans call the sheep "amon">>, and furthermore, the saint-athanase named the cult of the sheep-god to the libyans who call it "amon".
after representing the above facts, we cannot say but that the maghrib and egypt was a place of holly sheeps's worshiping since more than three thousand years, and it continued in the both of those countries up to the time of the christendom, and that ressemblance between the maghribain- and the egyptian cult of the same god proves a deep common belief brcause of an early connection between these people. it is sure that the firtility of the nile valley was the reason of the maghribain immigration into egypt on one hand, on the other hand the becoming-desert that began to spread itself in the southern regions of the maghrib was a decisive reason of the immigration in their trip for looking permanent water's sources, and therefor, the immigration takes two directions:
_ one direction towards the north and the westen north, and its remains are the drawings on the stones in the ssous province, en the oranic south.
_other dirction north-east across "fezzan" where the immigration is separated in to deals: one deal kept going towards the north to the borth provinces: "burqa" and "siwa", whereas the other deal towards thebes in egypt, and so, the maghribains would forme the the essential group of the new natives. whereabout the archeologist said to be in thebes, and therefor, they would be the one who brought the cult of the sheep to those regions that they visited/entred.

translated from this article.

[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 14 August 2005).]

posted 14 August 2005 08:06 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
[B] Wrong. It is stated by your source as a common fact:

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posted 14 August 2005 08:33 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mazigh:
ok, i see, but that wasn't a source, i gave just the source of the image.

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First you give us neo-NAZI source.

Then you link to a legitimate source, that contradicted you, but that you couldn't even be bothered to read.

Yet you keep hurling this garbage in our faces and asking us to 'follow'.

You are a very silly and childish fellow.

Please to not write me any further.

Thank you.

posted 15 August 2005 09:56 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by rasol:
...

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don't be so childish, and tell me how you find the translated article. personally, i find it as one the most interesting articles that i read.

posted 15 August 2005 12:31 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mazigh:
Amon was the greatest god of the maghribians [arabistish word to avoid using of the name berber or amazigh], and his cult was spread in a large region, in all the maghrib ...

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can anyone find just one time the use of the word "berber" in that long article ?!,

that is the reason why it is not so known that the famous amon is the berber berber.

posted 15 August 2005 12:42 PM            

The problem is the difficulty to connect ancient populations in pre-history with modern day populations. The early cultures of coastal North-western Africa are much more different than that of the Sahara and north-eastern Africa.

The term Berber is not specific either because its something that foreigners call the people. Each modern day berber population have different names for themselves. Most have adopted the name Imazghen but others like the Tuareg simply call themselves Kel Tamelsheq,and others like Kaybele,shuluh,Riffi ..etc call themselves by their own terms.

posted 15 August 2005 01:19 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:
[B]

The problem is the difficulty to connect ancient populations in pre-history with modern day populations. The early cultures of coastal North-western Africa are much more different than that of the Sahara and north-eastern Africa.

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quote:

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The term Berber is not specific either because its something that foreigners call the people.

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quote:

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Each modern day berber population have different names for themselves. Most have adopted the name Imazghen but others like the Tuareg simply call themselves Kel Tamelsheq,and others like Kaybele,shuluh,Riffi ..etc call themselves by their own terms.

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the tamasheq are the descendands of the libyan berbers, their names "tamashiq" "imohaq"... are just degeneration of the name amzigh or imazighen.

so, those problems doesn't exist in the reality.

posted 15 August 2005 03:01 PM            

translated from this article (it is written by mohamed chafiq).

posted 15 August 2005 06:38 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by kenndo:
AUSAR how many berbers do you think exist in libya today?

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about 10% of the libyans is berber (i mean the non-arabised berbers).

posted 15 August 2005 07:01 PM            

Actually Libya is the least Imazghen[Berber] in all of Magreb[North-west Africa] being that during the Middle Ages the Bani Hilal and Bani Sulaim were kicked out of Egypt into Libya. Many of those bedouins still live in the Western Desert around the Egypt-Libya border. Some Bani Hilal and Bani Sulaim did absorb the Zenata Berbers[a nomadic Berber group] and they became the Sa'idi[no relation to the Saidi in Upper Egypt] The rest of the Berbers were driven southward or into the mountains. This is how many Tuareg clans ended up in parts of the Sahel.

I would say modern Libya is probably more ethnically Bedouin than it is Imazghen. The consequence of Hilalian invasion.

posted 16 August 2005 06:26 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:

Actually Libya is the least Imazghen[Berber] in all of Magreb[North-west Africa] being that during the Middle Ages the Bani Hilal and Bani Sulaim were kicked out of Egypt into Libya. Many of those bedouins still live in the Western Desert around the Egypt-Libya border. Some Bani Hilal and Bani Sulaim did absorb the Zenata Berbers[a nomadic Berber group] and they became the Sa'idi[no relation to the Saidi in Upper Egypt] The rest of the Berbers were driven southward or into the mountains. This is how many Tuareg clans ended up in parts of the Sahel.

I would say modern Libya is probably more ethnically Bedouin than it is Imazghen. The consequence of Hilalian invasion.

The Arabic author Ibn Khaldun writes about the Hilian invasion and likens the Hilal to locusts.

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according to you, two tribes were many enough to become the majority.

posted 16 August 2005 04:57 PM            

the nasamon and their relationship with the god "amon":

rabat-moustapha ouachi:

we will today follow in the berber page, the object from wich we presented about seven series, and we taked therein some names that was used to refer to the berber, like as: the libyans, the temehu, the meshwesh, the ifri, and the garamants. and we will todag speak about onother name, and that is "the nasamon" or "nas amon", with giving an insight arround this group of people and its relationship with the amazigh amon.

herodotus, the father of the history, who lived in the fifth centery b.c. tells us that the libyans -the neighbours of the egyptians in the western side, and he means all the people of north africa, from the atlantic ocean in the west to egypt in the east- are devided in groups wich have several names, like as: "adyrmachidaea" the most closest of egypt and then the galgamay [the transcription might be incorecct], and they are followed by "the asbystae" from the western side, and then "auschisae", and therenear are "the nasamon" in the western side in their large domein.

in the paragraph 172 of the fourth chaptre of his book "the inquiries", herodotus spoked arround this group and their trevels during the summer and the winter and their agricultural activities that are based on grazing cattles and picking the dates from the palms and hunting the locusts, and thereafter he spoked on their social position wherein he referred to the phenomenon of the polygamy and their traditions during the night of the wedding's celebration. he spoked arround the side wich is related to their beliefds an their religion's practices, like as: discovering of the future, herodotus referred to the tradition of the nasamon when "they want to discover the future, they go to the sepulchre of their forfathers, after praying they sleep, and all what they see in their dreams would be considerd as revelation".

the manner of the oath was ,according to herodotus, with putting their hands on the sepulchres of the one who where as fair-minded and honest.

we also don't forget to refer to onother phenomenon at the nasamo, and that is the manner of agmeents's geving and taking, wich was happened on the following manner: "the one drink of another's hand, and if they didn't find any fluid, they chose for dust and lick it".

this is the general data that was told by herodotus on this people. and we will put some quetions about those stories and give some opinions, as the answer on the name in itself and their beliefs and their cremonies.

so, who are the nasamon ?

it appears that this name is formed by two parts:
"inas" and "amon", inas means giving revelotion or saying. amon was one of the berber gods, that its cult spead in north africa from egypt in the east tell the modern morocco in the west/

so, was is amon ?
it is one of the ancient berber gods if it wasn't the most important of them, and it was symbolised with the sheep or with only a sheep's head. why exactly the sheep ?

if we will start from our time, we will note that the farmer is still respecting the horns of the sheep and ? [+unknown word], he kept it because he beliefs that it protects him from the evil, and it appears that this belief is a remain of the ancient berber belief wherein the sheep was sacred, and by the was, the egyptian rocks are the oldest documenst who refers to it.

the sheep is choosed to refer to the sixsual capacity, like as the taurus, because it is one the animals which has the tend to the instinct. and the fertility was related to it, and it described as the spirit of the grain. it was the symbol of the deity and its cerative spirit wich is related to the humanity to ancient egyptians. they symbolised their god "khonomo" [the transcription might be incorrect] with sheep's head, and the greeks worshiped the deity wich is concedired as the principe the fertility in the form of the sheep. and in the judeo-christian inheritage it -the sheep- took the two formes, on the one hand it was sacred and referred to the masculinity, and on the other hand it was cursed, and the devil taked its form, like as it symbolised the evil spirits. and it became sacrificed to the aim that the evils of the people will be foriven.

also, it is valuable to refer to the story of abraha/ibrahim may god beless him, and its son ismael may god bless him, and the sacrifice to him by god/allah that is represented in the sheep. and so, it is able to concider the sheep as a cremonial sacrifice in all the regions of the ancient world, even in the modern time. because the planting of the earth and the rain's asking and the continouing of the fertility's season is dependent upon butchery and giving the sacrifices.

like as we told here above, amon was the principal god to the berbers, and its existing is proved with some textes from the sexth centery b.c. and it kept exist tell the end of the byzentium's period. and we have the right to believe that the existing of amon in the magrigh is much older than the sexth centery b.c., even it kept existing long time after the beginning of the islamic invasion in the maghrib like as "al-bakri" told in his book "the accesses and the kingdoms". and amon was a sheep-god in its animal nature, and he is the equivalent of the punic god "hammon" and the greek "zeus" ..etc. it was believed tell the half of the twentieth centery that egypt was the source of this cult and its spreading in north africa, and that the sheeps-statues in the rocks of the atlas wich were believed to be related to the egyptian god amon of thebes wich was changed to the sun-god after its mixing with the egyptian god "ra".

this simple supposed idea, was accepted tell the half of this centery, whereafter it became clear that the sheep of the rocks were much older than the sheep of amon-ra, and that it's not unlikely that the sheep of the atlas's rocks, is the original one whereas the sheep of amon-ra is the secondary one.

in the origin and the meaning of "amon"

amon appears to mean the hiddenity and the invisibility in the ancient egyptian language. and amn or aman in the berber language appears to mean the "the water", but the word "water" is a plural without any sigular form. and the "a" in the beginning of the word "aman" is known in the two languages: the ancient egyptian- and the berber language, wich might mean they belong to a one family language wich is known as the hamitic language. also, after revising some berber words we remark that the word amn or amon is related to other words ,in its forme, like as "tammen" wich means "honey" and wich is formed by "ta and aman", and that the berbers [..]

[..] because of the greatness of the god amon for the berber people, there are many names for berber tribes wich are called after this god, like as: "the amonians", "garamants" and "the nasamon", or "nas amon" who are the aim of our subject.

because of some sings/referrings of herodotus were used to dicover the future, and that is the pricipal phenomenon wich mentioned the god amon in siwa. the people and the governmental personalities were used to consult it (amon) about the future. and the temple of amon in siwa became a known centre after the persians conquered the egyptian temple in the "oqsor" [the transcription might be incorrect] with the leadership of "qambiz" [the transcription might be incorrect], and it-the temple of amon in siwa- got a special position in the fifth centery b.c. in the eyes of the greeks arround its foretelling that they -the greeks- will win againt the persians. and this means the foretelling was practiced by the nasamon. but without consulting the temple of amon. they were used to satisfied with praying and sleeping near their sepulchres of their fair-minded forfathers. and this might be explained with the fact they -their forfathers- were loyal servant and followers- and priests of amon.

the name of the nasamon means, like as we said,: said- amon said or amon gave the revelotion, and this is sufficient enough to the prove the relatioship between this people and the god amon who is known with its foretelling and revelotion. this means they are the sons of amon wich says and give the revelotion, and having its name [-the name of amon-] is a proof of it worshiping [-the worshiping of amon-] and their relationship with it.

with this exaple it become clear that the berbers were related to their gods, and that the god amon had many worshipers among th berbers to the point they called themselfs after it -amon- and they composed its holly name with their name.

but is it a berber- or an egyptian god?
it appears it is of saharan origin in the first instance, and its cult is very old, wich might be old than its existance in egypt and in the siw oasis, probably, it dates from the time when the desert was not so infertile, and when the dryness began, the inhabitants had to immigrate. some of them immigrated to the north: "north africa", and thereafter to the east, the others immigrated immidiatly to the east or the eastern west. some of them could integrate with its new weather's situations and kept live in the desert. others immigrate to the south. but we are interested in the group that immigrated to the north and the southern north. and they brought their culture, belief and gods with them. some of them immigrated to libye, and from libye to the nile valley, and this stimulated many reseachers and historians to relate a number culture- and civilisations's phonemons with the saharan libyan berber culture, and that is based on the supposed fact that the peoples who reached egypt and the nile valley, had crossed firstly along libye, and connected its inhabitants and influenced them like as is has been influencend by them, this if they doesn't belong the same people, because of the closely relationship between the egyptian- and the libyco-berber language, because they belong to the so-called the hamitic languages. this connection and relationship has the reseachers to reduce a number egyptian civilisations's phonemons to a sahara libyco-berber civilisation. one of those researchers is "oric bates" who said: "it appears that it is surely there is a relationship between the religion of the ancient egyptians and the religion of the libyans, wich is more closed to together than the case of the semitic religions as example, exactly, like as a certain libyan people influenced [it believe he means this word, because it isn't clear] the egyptian language, there are from all sides a number gods in the egyptian religion of libyan origin.

so, we can consider the god amon as a sahara lybico-berber god before he would be an egyptian god. firstly, on the basis of its name wich is found in a number berber tribes's names, and secondly, on the basis of th rocks wich represented the sheep that is decorated with the disc, the medails [?] that are spread in the rocks in north africa and the sahara.

traslated from this article .

posted 28 August 2005 08:27 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Mazigh:
does anyone know wether amon was worshiped by the canarians/guanches (the berbers of the canary islands)?

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the guanches also worshiped that deity, they called him "achamon", this god -achamon- is especially worshiped in the island "tenerife". the guanche god "achamon" seems to be a mix of two gods "ach + amon". like as " baal + amon", "ra + amon" "zeus + amon" and " jupiter + amon".

" Sin embargo, habría que hacer hincapié en la hipótesis de que el dios-sol, de origen prehistórico-sahariano, que entre los egipcios se llama Amon-Re, entre los guanches de Tenerife Achamon y entre los fenicios Ba'al Hammon influyó en el Mediterráneo, al parecer procedente del interior de Africa."

"[...]Precisamente uno de los elementos simbólico-culturales que encontramos en toda esta área geográfica es el carnero con esférico en la cabeza, que está presente en la prehistoria sahariana, aunque también en Egipto. Pero lo más relevante es que el dios Amón-Ra Egipcio, de origen africano-sahariano (Castiglioni y Negro, 1986; Cervelló, 1995) aparecería como el dios Achamón (dios sol) de los guanches de Tenerife." http://www.eurosur.org/ai/19/afr1902.htm

also, i would like to translate this paragraphe from the book of mohamed chafiq (hafriyyat fi ellogha (h) [this book is online to read by the arabic readers !]:

"it is whileworth to pay the attention to the notice of the berber-based researcher "rené basset" who noticed that the guanches untill the beginning of this century [20th century] kept using the name "amman" with the meaning of "god" and "master", and they affiliated him in their expressions with the name of the "sun" (camps, I, 216).[...]".

[This message has been edited by Mazigh (edited 28 August 2005).]

posted 28 August 2005 09:00 AM            

would this means that amon was close related to the zenata tribe, or is this only by the occasion ?

the rif mountains (north of morocoo) are also inhabited by the berbers who are called the riffains (named after the rif-mountains, and by the way the rif mountains doesn't lay in the atlas mountains), thus the rif-language would be close related to the tenerife language (notice with me the "rif" of teneRIFE ). in the rif language the "sun" is called "fusht" or "thfusht" (something like this). have this word "fusht" anything to do with the first word of " achamon" (ACHamon)?

note: i don't think there is any evidence that the riffains have worshiped the god amon !!