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Author Topic:   Black "Berbers" have recent Negroid admixture
Evil Euro
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posted 16 September 2005 07:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Evil Euro     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Afonuts wrongly believe that so-called "Black Berbers" represent the earliest North African population. But the degree of blackness in Berbers correlates with recent Sub-Saharan admixture, which the following article distinguishes from "Upper Paleolithic East African" ancestry (i.e. E3b). Sub-Saharan admixture in turn correlates strongly with latitude. Hence, the farther south you go into the Sahara, the more Negroid (and less Berber) the people become. And these recent black "Berbers" are only a small minority (~5% of the NW African population). The fully white, true Berbers make up the overwhelming majority (~75% of the population).

quote:
PHENOTYPE AND GENOTYPE BY REGION

The appearance and the genetic make-up of Berbers is best examined together with that of their fellow Arabic-speaking inhabitants of North Africa; both share a predominant Berber ancestry.


  • Coastal Northwest Africans

    About 75% of Northwest Africans live on the coast. Berber groups such as the Rifains and Kabyles have the least sub-Saharan admixture (~2%) and the highest European admixture (~15%); Arabic-speaking groups have about 7% sub-Saharan admixture overall. Berber groups in this zone include:

    * Kabyles
    * Chawis
    * Rifains
    * Amazighs
    * Chenwas


    Berber Kabyles in an MCB meeting


  • Northwest Africans of the interior

    About 20% of Northwest Africans live between the Atlas Mountains and the Sahara; these groups have a moderate sub-Saharan admixture (~20%), including:

    * Mozabites.
    * Shleuhs.


    Berber Mozabites in a Zaouia


  • Saharan Northwest Africans

    About 5% of Northwest Africans live in the Sahara; these groups have the highest recent (or at least non-Upper Paleolithic East African) sub-Saharan admixture, sometimes reaching 80-90% among the Tuaregs. They include:

    * Touaregs
    * Saharan Berbers, Oasis Berbers.


    Berber Touaregs in Mali


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berbers

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yazid904
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posted 16 September 2005 09:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for yazid904     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Euro,

Why the insistance on this black/white stuff? A person's skin colour is self evident and one does not need "rocket science" to ascertain the color.

We agree that any isolated population develops characteristics (like the Kablye Berbers) in proprotion to degree of barriers (mountains in this case) to prevent 'outsiders' from coming in.
With no natural barriers, contact/interaction without side tribes/peoples will take place.

Berbers are Berbers. They recognize each outher by language, dress, from a certain location (tribal name).

The more 'Negroid', less Berber mierda is just that. An African is an African, one born in the continent of Africa.

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leba
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posted 16 September 2005 10:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for leba     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Let me predict how this thread is gonna end up.


Rasol :

Original berbers were ''E3b Black Africans'' who mixed with European females..[[Some other Afro-Centric bs]].

Euro :

E3b is not ''Black African''


Djehuti:

Says something dumb.

Super Car :

Post some study to prove it's ''black African''.

ETC ETC


THIS WILL NEVER STOP THIS IS ENDLESS

[This message has been edited by leba (edited 16 September 2005).]

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Djehuti
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posted 16 September 2005 12:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Djehuti     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by leba:

Djehuti:

Says something dumb...


Leb, YOU of all people shouldn't be talking about others saying "somthing dumb"!!

There was nothing "dumb" about anything I said. YOU on the other hand talk about different degree of prognathisms other African people have and call them monkeys when YOU yourself are black African (most likely one with 'bucktoothed' form of prognathism)!!

You have not been able to refute anything I said regarding your idiotic notions of "race" becaus you are an Idiot, plain and simple!

Other people maybe be "monkeys" but you yourself are just a pathetic dog, actually the ass of a dog!!

so you word means NOTHING!!

[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 17 September 2005).]

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brazil
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posted 16 September 2005 01:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for brazil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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Snoozin
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posted 16 September 2005 01:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Snoozin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Other people maybe be "monkeys" but you yourself are just a pathetic dog, actually the ass of a dog!!

My very cute puppy dog takes offense at those statements. Dogs are way cooler than racists any day.

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osirion
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posted 16 September 2005 03:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for osirion     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Does someone have an issue with this:

The haplogroup E3b2 is defined by M81. Cruciani et al found, as had previous studies, that E3b2 is very common in northwestern Africa - with frequencies approaching 80% in some places. The group seems to be associated with the Berber ethnic group. The map in Cruciani's Sub-Saharan Africa paper shows E3b2 in light blue. The frequency of E-M81 drops off sharply the further east one goes in northern Africa - and it is not seen in sub-Saharan Africa. Cruciani et al date the E3b2 haplogroup at 5600 years. E3b2 is also seen in Iberia - perhaps as a result of the centuries of Islamic domination of much of the Iberian peninsula. A 2003 study by Paracchini et al saw E3b2 among Hispanic men from California and Hawaii at a frequency of 2.4%. Data by Bosch et al shows that E3b2 frequently has DYS391=9 (as does E3b1-beta). Examination of the YSearch and YBase databases shows a cluster of non-E3b1-beta haplotypes (i.e. DYS439 is not 10) that have DYS391=9. Examples of that group can be seen can be seen here. Other alleles characteristic of this group are DYS393=14, DYS447=22, DYS570=16, DYS576=12, and YCAII=19,19. However the Bosch E3b2 data shows a tendency towards DYS389i=14 that is not seen in this group - so there is some doubt about identifying it as E3b2.

The E3b2 sub-group defined by M107 has only been seen in one individual from Mali, and E3b2 subgroup defined by M165 has only been seen in one individual from the Middle East.


----------------------

My comment: If it is not found in Sub-Saharan Africa and it is not found in any large frequency in East Africa, why is it a point of discussion for this forum?

However, what you cannot explain is their language. If the Berbers speak Afro-Asiatic then at some point in time, regardless of their current phenotype, the founder group was East African and recently; depending on similarities. If they were original Caucasian people (like Europeans) then why don't they speak Latin or at least some form of Sanscript.

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osirion
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posted 16 September 2005 03:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for osirion     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

What I also find interesting is that the Berbers mtDNA is apparently from the Iberian peninsula but their Y-Chromosome and language attest to East African origins. How long ago this was is really the question that would pertain to the potential of trait adaptation. It is quite possible we are looking at E3b arriving in East Africa far enough in the past that adaptation to a different climate has resulted in a more Caucasoid appearance along with admixture with Caucasian females (and males to some degree).


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rasol
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posted 16 September 2005 03:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rasol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
It is quite possible we are looking at E3b arriving in East Africa far enough in the past that adaptation to a different climate


The timeline of E3b2 expansion in NorthWest Africa negates this possibility,

E3b originates in East Africa.

E3b is rare in NorthWest Africa.

E3b2, a recent downstream lineage, ie - a son of E3b, and is common in NorthWest Africa:

Since the E3b*-M35 lineages appear to be confined mostly to sub-Saharans, the initial migrations toward North Africa from the south primarily involved derivative E3b-M35 lineages.

These include E3b1-M78, a haplogroup especially common in Ethiopia (23%), and, perhaps, E3b2-M123 (2%), which is present as well (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002; Semino et al. 2002).

......
This proposal is in accordance with a population expansion involving E3b2-M81 believed to have occurred in northwestern Africa 2000 years ago.

Moreover, the Kabyle Berber, palest of all the Berber - have one of the highest rates of skin cancer in the world - along with Australian and South African whites.

This is characteristic of pale Northern climate adapted people displaced into a sunnier environment.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 16 September 2005).]

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yazid904
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posted 16 September 2005 04:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for yazid904     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
brazil,

Thanks for the humor! i just had to break up in lafter.

hoda hafez

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rasol
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posted 16 September 2005 05:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rasol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
yazid904"
The more 'Negroid', less Berber mierda is just that. An African is an African, one born in the continent of Africa.

Mierda, as in meridian - imaginary line?

If so I agree and...well said!

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D_ManningJr
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posted 17 September 2005 03:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for D_ManningJr     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Afonuts wrongly believe that so-called "Black Berbers" represent the earliest North African population. But the degree of blackness in Berbers correlates with [b]recent Sub-Saharan admixture, which the following article distinguishes from "Upper Paleolithic East African" ancestry (i.e. E3b). Sub-Saharan admixture in turn correlates strongly with latitude. Hence, the farther south you go into the Sahara, the more Negroid (and less Berber) the people become. And these recent black "Berbers" are only a small minority (~5% of the NW African population). The fully white, true Berbers make up the overwhelming majority (~75% of the population).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berbers[/B]



, You copied Igu's from dodona entry from wikipedia. Very smart, I bet you fel you've really accomplished something. I know you need attention.

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yazid904
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posted 17 September 2005 12:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for yazid904     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am looking at "founder effect" vs "genetic drift" where it is possible that an in between effect is possible. I will re-iterate that the Kablyle Berber's genotype has been maintained by natural barriers (mountains). Same as the people from Pais Vasco (both France and Spain) where their individual character has been maintianed with limited outside influence (genetic drift).

Like ah said "a white monkey is not different from a black monkey". They both share the trait of 'monkeyness'. Disfferent location does not change their state of monkeying.

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Djehuti
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posted 17 September 2005 01:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Djehuti     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Afonuts wrongly believe that so-called "Black Berbers" represent the earliest North African population. But the degree of blackness in Berbers correlates with [b]recent Sub-Saharan admixture, which the following article distinguishes from "Upper Paleolithic East African" ancestry (i.e. E3b). Sub-Saharan admixture in turn correlates strongly with latitude. Hence, the farther south you go into the Sahara, the more Negroid (and less Berber) the people become. And these recent black "Berbers" are only a small minority (~5% of the NW African population). The fully white, true Berbers make up the overwhelming majority (~75% of the population).[/b]

And what do you call the Haratin or the Jerba people?? I recall a genetic study that says these peoples are not really closely related to "Sub-Saharan" West Africans and are most likely aboriginal to the area.

[This message has been edited by Djehuti (edited 17 September 2005).]

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Djehuti
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posted 17 September 2005 01:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Djehuti     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by yazid904:
Like ah said "a white monkey is not different from a black monkey". They both share the trait of 'monkeyness'. Disfferent location does not change their state of monkeying.

In Stupid-Euro's case it would be a dog! LOL

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BARBARIAN BERBER
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posted 17 September 2005 01:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BARBARIAN BERBER     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
This proposal is in accordance with a population expansion involving E3b2-M81 believed to have occurred in northwestern Africa 2000 years ago.

I don't think that this is possible, do you mean that at the time where carthage was built Berbers did not have E3b2?

quote:

Moreover, the Kabyle Berber, palest of all the Berber - have one of the highest rates of skin cancer in the world - along with Australian and South African whites.

That is not true, here are some pics of Kabylie during winter (it snows every winter):







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rasol
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posted 17 September 2005 03:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rasol     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Luis, Underhill et. al:
quote:
This proposal is in accordance with a population expansion involving E3b2-M81 believed to have occurred in northwestern Africa 2000 years ago.

quote:
Barbarian Berber writes:
I don't think that this is possible, do you mean that at the time where carthage was built Berbers did not have E3b2?

Hi Barbarian Berber.

The above is quoted from this genetic study on:
Migration routes effecting East Africa, North Africa and West Asia.

Let's examine the relevant passage and see if we can understand what they are saying:


* E3b*-M35 lineages appear to be confined almost exclusively to the sub-Saharan populations, except for a very low incidence in Egypt (2.7%) and a somewhat larger frequency in Ethiopia (7%, as reported by Underhill et al. [2000]). The highest levels of E3b*-M35 are in Tanzania (37.2%), Kenya (13.8%), and the Khoisans (11% in !Kung and 31% in Khwe).


E3b*-M35 refers to E3b without downstream mutations.

This is the original haplotype.

E3b1, E3b2, and E3b3 are derived from it, and much later than the mrca of the original haplotype.

When they say it is restricted to sub-sahara, they actually mean south of the horn - kenya, tanzania on down - this is an inaccurate definition of sub-sahara, but nonetheless that is what they are referring to.

** E3b appears to be confined mostly to the sub-Saharan populations, it is conceivable that the initial migrations toward North Africa from the south primarily involved derivative E3b-M35 lineages.

They are saying that E3b, diveraged in the horn of Africa into E3b1,2 and 3.

These downstream lineages and peoples then spread into North Africa and across the Levant.

They are very explicit on the details and paths the different lineages took from the horn/sub-sahara into NorthEast, NorthWest Africa, and Eurasia.

*** These include E3b1-M78, a haplogroup especially common in Ethiopia (23%), and, perhaps, E3b2-M123 (2%), which is present as well (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002; Semino et al. 2002). The data suggest that two later expansions may have followed: one eastward along the Levantine corridor into the Near East and the other toward northwestern Africa. The extant North African and Middle Eastern distribution (Underhill et al. 2001b; Cruciani et al. 2002; present study) of these lineages suggests that both routes are associated with the dissemination of E3b1-M78. However, the E3b3-M123 chromosomes may have spread predominantly toward the east, whereas E3b2-M81, which is present in relatively high levels in Morocco (33% and 69% in Moroccan Arabs and Moroccan Berbers, respectively [Cruciani et al. 2002]), dispersed mainly to the west.

Cruciani further date the mrca of the E3b2 haplogroup at 5.6 ky~, which is similar to its expansion date in Egypt.

However, in NorthWest Africa, per Cruciani:

The coalescence age of the E3b2 bearing chromosomes, estimated from the variation observed at the three microsatellite loci, was only 1,995 years.

Coalescence time measures the point of the common ancestor of a group of individuals.

The older the coalescence date the longer that population - defined in genetics as a group of interbreeding individuals - has existed.


From this Cruciani,2002 concludes:

Thus, both the age and the high frequency of the M81 haplotypes suggest that a [recent] demographic expansion has occurred in northwestern africa.

And that is what is referenced by Luis, et. al....

This proposal is in accordance with a population expansion involving E3b2-M81 believed to have occurred in northwestern Africa 2 ky ago (Cruciani et al. 2002).

The considerably older linear expansion estimate of the Egyptian E3b2-M81 (5.4 ky ago) is also compatible with this scenario.

Thus, they conclude, that the E3b2 lineage:

a) derived from E3b in the horn 5.6ky~
b) the current E3b2 population expanded in Egypt 5.4 ky~
c) the current NW african E3b2 population expanded 2ky~

ps - Yes, I know it snows in parts of the Maghrib and especially in the Atlas mountain region.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 17 September 2005).]

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BARBARIAN BERBER
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posted 17 September 2005 04:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BARBARIAN BERBER     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi rasol;

Very interesting information, so the capsians were not bearers of the E3b2... confusing.

Here is a map of migrations in the neolithic, I don't know if it's correct:




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Thought2
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posted 17 September 2005 06:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thought2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rasol:

Thus, they conclude, that the E3b2 lineage:

a) derived from E3b in the horn 5.6ky~
b) the current E3b2 population expanded in Egypt 5.4 ky~
c) the current NW african E3b2 population expanded 2ky~


Thought Posts:

Goncalves et al.
2005

"E3b2-M81 in North Africa may have arisen near Egypt or Somalia and then spread westwards along the upper boundary of Africa. This particular haplogroup has been observed at variable frequencies in Iberain populations..."

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yazid904
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posted 17 September 2005 11:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for yazid904     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Based on fotos, location/environment of Kabyle Berbers will reflect phenotype/genotype. Their region seems similar to the ski areas of Lebanon so physical characteristics would be similar despite their African location.

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