posted 24 September 2005 03:59 PM            

1) Nordic Europeans have features that distinguish them from Mediterranean Europeans such as short, broad heads and light hair and eyes.

2) Broad morphology West Africans have features that distinguish them from elongated East Africans such as narrow noses and faces.

posted 24 September 2005 04:03 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

1) Nordic Europeans have features that distinguish them from Mediterranean Europeans such as short, broad heads and light hair and eyes.

2) Broad morphology West Africans have features that distinguish them from elongated East Africans such as narrow noses and faces.

3) While broad and elongated East and West Africans are **CONNECTED** via the common PN2 BLOODLINE, the Nordics and Mediterranean are **DISTINGUISHED** by the European bloodlines R1a and Hg I.

---

[This message has been edited by Giza-Rider (edited 24 September 2005).]

posted 24 September 2005 04:34 PM            

quote:

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Thought2:
1) Nordic Europeans have features that distinguish them from Mediterranean Europeans such as short, broad heads and light hair and eyes.

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Would like to add that darker skin pigmentation is more prevalent among the Meds. than the Nordic Europeans!

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:

2) Broad morphology West Africans have features that distinguish them from elongated East Africans such as narrow noses and faces.

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One of the most persistent myths is the idea that all East Africans have the so-called narrow noses and faces. Kenndo always reacts to this, and rightly so. There are indigenous East African groups with so-called broad facial physiognomy, who are overlooked...likely for socio-political reasons.

quote:

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Thought2:

3) While broad and elongated East and West Africans are **CONNECTED** via the common PN2 BLOODLINE, the Nordics and Mediterranean are **DISTINGUISHED** by the European bloodlines R1a and Hg I.

---

posted 24 September 2005 05:17 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

1) Nordic Europeans have features that distinguish them from Mediterranean Europeans such as short, broad heads and light hair and eyes.

2) Broad morphology West Africans have features that distinguish them from elongated East Africans such as narrow noses and faces.

3) While broad and elongated East and West Africans are **CONNECTED** via the common PN2 BLOODLINE, the Nordics and Mediterranean are **DISTINGUISHED** by the European bloodlines R1a and Hg I.

---

posted 24 September 2005 05:30 PM            

quote:

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Leba:
The majority of the Nordics don't have broad features!
And the difference between Horn Africans and Central Africans is way bigger then between Germans and Italians.

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...I can certainly find numerous people of Northern European descent with broad facial physiognomies. But picture spams are pointless and selective. Now to the so-called "bigger" differences between people in the African Horn and Central Africa; what would these be?

posted 24 September 2005 05:36 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
[B]Predictable! Leba's answer to legitimate points, is to spam the place with meatless photos, speaking of which...

...I can certainly find numerous people of Northern European descent with broad facial physiognomies. But picture spams are pointless and selective. Now to the so-called "bigger" differences between people in the African Horn and Central Africa; what would these be?

---

posted 24 September 2005 05:38 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
Predictable! Leba's answer to legitimate points, is to spam the place with meatless photos, speaking of which...

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:
...I can certainly find numerous people of Northern European descent with broad facial physiognomies. But picture spams are pointless and selective. Now to the so-called "bigger" differences between people in the African Horn and Central Africa; what would these be?

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North Europeans on average don't have broad features stop confusing Aplines with Nordics. And like I said the difference between Horn Africans and West-Central Africans is waaaaaaaayyy more bigger then Germans and Italians.

]Typical Nordic features.

posted 24 September 2005 06:02 PM            

quote:

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Leba:
I love pictures...

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Isn't that obvious...like a child crying after a cotton candy.

quote:

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Originally posted by leba:
North Europeans on average don't have broad features stop confusing Aplines with Nordics. And like I said the difference between Horn Africans and West-Central Africans is waaaaaaaayyy more bigger then Germans and Italians.

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Buddy, the confused individual is the one who wrote the above, for rather than addressing the following, you are merely repeating an earlier jargon.

quote:

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...I can certainly find numerous people of Northern European descent with broad facial physiognomies. But picture spams are pointless and selective. Now to the so-called "bigger" differences between people in the African Horn and Central Africa; what would these be?

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So, again, in simple terms: What is this so-called "bigger" difference between Africans in the African Horn and Central Africa, that is greater than REAL Europeans and the OUTLIER ones?...Or is just another juvenile and pointless jabber of a troll!

posted 24 September 2005 07:18 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Giza-Rider:

NORDICS DO NOT HAVE SHORT BROAD HEADS, BUT RATHER THE OPPOSITE.

YOU MUST BE CONFUSING THE ALPINE POPULATION WITH THE NORDICS.

MEDS---SHARE THIS TRAIT WITH SOME AFRICANS AND ALSO THE NORDICS.

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Thought Writes:

You may be right. I was actually being a bit facetious, if you were not able to percieve that. I notice you avoided the crux of the topic however.

1) Nordics and Mediterranean Europeans have variable phenotypes. Nordics have lighter hair and eyes than Mediterraneans.

2) East and West Africans have variable phenotypes. East Africans generally having narrower noses and faces than West Africans.

3) East and West Africans share in the same PN2 bloodline. Southern Europeans like the Greeks do NOT share in the same Y-Chromosome bloodline of R1b and Hg I as do Northern Europeans.

That is the point.

posted 24 September 2005 07:25 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leba:

And the difference between Horn Africans and Central Africans is way bigger then between Germans and Italians.

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Thought Writes:

Hi Leba. A couple of points:

1) Your comparing apples and oranges. Central Africa and the Horn of Africa are regions. Germany and Italy are countries.

2) Please tell us SPECIFICALLY what these differences are.

3) Please provide the peer-reviewed scientific evidence that supports your position.

posted 24 September 2005 07:29 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Super car:

I can certainly find numerous people of Northern European descent with broad facial physiognomies. But picture spams are pointless and selective.

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Thought Writes:

Great points Supercar. Lets wait and see if Leba can provide us with some statistical evidence to support his contention. If he is unable to provide peer-reviewed data to support his position then we are forced to view his position as pseudo-science.

posted 24 September 2005 07:36 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by leba:

This map Evil always post shows that the difference between East Africans and West-Central Africans is greater then between Europeans[South-North].

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Thought Writes:

Hi Leba,

Actually, no. I have allready addressed this sort of issue. The term **DIFFERENCE** is subjective and can mean many different things. The graphic above has no bearing on the differences and affinities of bloodlines/genetics. It is a chart that considers the differences and relatedness on ONE aspect of phenotype (Crania) between the **POPULATIONS SAMPLED**. Crania is NOT phenotype in totality. In fact it is not even osteology in totality. In terms of noses and faces SOME East Africans have greater affinities to SOME Eurasians than they do to other Blacks. In terms of osteology Horn of Africa populations have elongated limbs LIKE other Black Africans. In terms of blood, Horn of Africa populations share in the common PN2 clade bloodline with other Black Africans from the Western end of the Holy Land - Africa. In addition, the sample was incomplete in that Brace did not evaluate narrow nosed, narrow faced West Africans such as the Tuareg or the Fulani. I certainly hope that was not the extent of your evidence. If so then you are dismissed.

posted 24 September 2005 07:37 PM            

Italians and Germans look closer then Somalis and Gabonese do.

posted 24 September 2005 07:44 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leba:

Italians and Germans look closer then Somalis and Gabonese do.

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Thought Writes:

Hi Leba,

Do you have any scientific peer-reviewed data to support YOUR position. In scientific circles peer-review is used as a tool and standard. Your personal opinion holds no weight here. Opinions are like ass-holes....everybodies got one. This is relativism. No thing is absolute because the nature of a thing is to change, however we seek to get as near to the ideal of the truth as possible. Peer-review is the method used when discussing anthropological issues. Thank you.

posted 24 September 2005 07:48 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by leba:
Difference I mean phenotype...Not genotype..

Italians and Germans look closer then Somalis and Gabonese do.

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Leba is just needlessly rehashing stuff that has been addressed...just seconds ago! It will be interesting to see this discussion reach a logical conclusion.

quote:

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It is a chart that considers the differences and relatedness on ONE aspect of phenotype (Crania) between the **POPULATIONS SAMPLED**.

Crania is NOT phenotype in totality.

In fact it is not even osteology in totality. In terms of noses and faces SOME East Africans have greater affinities to SOME Eurasians than they do to other Blacks. In terms of osteology Horn of Africa populations have elongated limbs LIKE other Black Africans. In terms of blood, Horn of Africa populations share in the common PN2 clade bloodline with other Black Africans from the Western end of the Holy Land...

---

posted 25 September 2005 12:11 AM            

African Unconscious
Edward Bynum

posted 25 September 2005 07:43 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Nordics and Mediterranean are **DISTINGUISHED** by the European bloodlines R1a and Hg I.

---

Nonsense. The purest Mediterraneans in Europe are the Spanish, Portuguese and Basques. They share high levels of R and I with Northwestern Europeans. Greeks and Italians are only about 1/3 Mediterranean. The remainder of their subracial make-up is Alpine and Dinaric -- phenotypes shared with Central and Eastern Europeans.

quote:

---

Nordic Europeans have features that distinguish them from Mediterranean Europeans such as short, broad heads and light hair and eyes.

---

Nordics and Mediterraneans are identical in virtually every respect except pigmentation, and that's because Nords (who were originally brunet) are adapted to a cold northern climate, while Meds have further adapted to the sunny Mediterranean climate. Both groups are strongly differentiated from Negroids.

Nordics:

Mediterraneans:

posted 25 September 2005 08:09 AM            

quote:

---

while Meds have further adapted to the sunny Mediterranean climate

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Doubtless, in which case they differ phenotypically from Northern Europeans which is Thought's accurate point.

They also differ genetically.

Per Wetton [2005]:

Wetton found "dark Medits" are less homogenous than "pale Nordes".

Dark Euros have 24% paternal bloodline from Black Africa, Pale Euros have about 2%.

posted 25 September 2005 10:42 AM            

quote:

---

dumb hyena, leba says:
The majority of the Nordics don't have broad features!
And the difference between Horn Africans and Central Africans is way bigger then between Germans and Italians.

---

And since when did an East African become the expert on northern Europeans? Do you live in Europe?

More importantly is that I discussed this a while back in another thread.
I said that: members of a certain group who are more familiar with each other, notice differences more readily and make greater distinctions among themselves than people outside their group. Whereas people outside of the group who are not as familiar with their features tend to make generalizations and not notice differences as clearly.

Of course when I say 'groups' I mean designated so-called "racial" groups.

This is exactly why many white people say "all blacks look alike" and why many blacks say "all white people look alike". This is also why both white people and black people say "all Asians look alike"!

quote:

---

North Europeans on average don't have broad features stop confusing Aplines with Nordics. And like I said the difference between Horn Africans and West-Central Africans is waaaaaaaayyy more bigger then Germans and Italians.

---

posted 25 September 2005 10:55 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

I find this thread to be silly! All designated "racial" groups have some form of variation. What is the point?

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Thought Writes:

Gosh Djehuti, it is really hard to believe that you can't keep up with these threads. At any rate, IF you had read the entire thread before commenting you would have noted that I was being a bit "facetious", but there is a great deal of relevence and truth to this thread as well. The point(s) of this thread are simplified for your understanding as follows:

1) BOTH Europeans and Africans have a range of phenotypic variability.

2) Both Europeans and Africans have phenotypic traist that also unite them.

3) while East and West Africans share in the same gene pool, Greeks and other Southern Europeans are genetic outliers when compared to Northern European Y-Chromosome lineages.

posted 25 September 2005 11:07 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

Gosh Djehuti, it is really hard to believe that you can't keep up with these threads. At any rate, IF you had read the entire thread before commenting you would have noted that I was being a bit "facetious", but there is a great deal of relevence and truth to this thread as well. The point(s) of this thread are simplified for your understanding as follows:

1) BOTH Europeans and Africans have a range of phenotypic variability.

2) Both Europeans and Africans have phenotypic traist that also unite them.

3) while East and West Africans share in the same gene pool, Greeks and other Southern Europeans are genetic outliers when compared to Northern European Y-Chromosome lineages.

If I was a little rude Djehuti pardon me, I do realize that there are different learning curves.

---

I understand all that, but wasn't that point mad a long time ago.

If people are just too stupid to get it, what is the point?

posted 25 September 2005 02:57 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

If people are just too stupid to get it, what is the point?

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Thought Writes:

posted 25 September 2005 03:12 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

1) BOTH Europeans and Africans have a range of phenotypic variability.

---

Thought Writes:

If we carefully analyze Evil E's own source we see that the source recognize MORE than cranio-facial morphology as the basis for assigning "Race". Evil E's source ALSO recognizes "INTRARACIAL" variability.

Thought Posts:

http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=10801

"How many human races are there? If we look at the major geographically varying characters - hair form, skin colour, body build, facial features, and some cranial and dental features"

"But each race is very heterogeneous. Skin colour plays a very minor role here..."

posted 25 September 2005 03:26 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
I understand all that, but wasn't that point mad a long time ago.

If people are just too stupid to get it, what is the point?

---

I agree in general, given that many points that are discussed here on a daily basis, have been made time and again, thanks to crackpots, but some new browsers might not be as clear on these reoccurring points. Moreover, newly arrived studies can and do make a difference. For instance, in January when the notorious Med troll arrived, he was in absolute denial about the sub-Saharan derivation of E3b lineages, but with more studies coming out, using the term more so than the previous ones, he had no choice, but to at least recognize this uncontested fact to the extent of making irrelevant comments along the lines of, "it is a specific part of sub-Sharan Africa"; not that being in the same latitudes makes much of a difference. Add to this, self-clarifications by the various authors of the studies discussed here, through personal correspondence, can make it really hard for some distorter to continue highjacking their work solely for political and therapeutic reasons.

posted 25 September 2005 03:43 PM            

He continues to spam the board with 'googled-garbage' simply in order to bait response.

He could care less where he gets his garbage from, or how wrong his information might be as long as he gets attention and response.

And it does not matter whether you think troll's should be responded to or not - someone always will respond to them - this is the internet!

The response will either be from knowledgeable persons...or not.

If the response is from someone not knowledgeable - even if well intended - then the troll's aim of spreading ignorance and deceit is futhered.

On the other hand knowlegeable response' not only defeat trolls, but spread truth.....which is a worthwhile goal in and of itself.

Personally I want Africans to learn the arguments and methods of trolls, because too many of us 'repeat' after broken down Eurocentric fallacies because it's all we think we know about our own history.

I want Africans to see where this kind of outmoded thinking leads.

To those who would prefer a troll free forum - you know the answer:

You have to find some other forum.

Egyptsearch has effectively no security.

posted 25 September 2005 04:07 PM            

quote:

---

Thought2:

If we carefully analyze Evil E's own source we see that the source recognize MORE than cranio-facial morphology as the basis for assigning "Race". Evil E's source ALSO recognizes "INTRARACIAL" variability.

Thought Posts:

http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=10801

"How many human races are there? If we look at the major geographically varying characters - hair form, skin colour, body build, facial features, and some cranial and dental features"

"But each race is very heterogeneous. Skin colour plays a very minor role here..."

---

posted 25 September 2005 06:43 PM            

By studying mitochondrial DNA, which is passed from mother to child, researchers have found that most of the actual European inhabitants seem to have come from re-expansion of hunter-gatherers populations, which have migrated from Iberia, Europe after the end of the last Ice Age reports an article in the January issue of Genome Research.
In the study of human evolution through history and pre-history there are now two indispensable sets of genes to follow: Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) genes. Both sets are transmitted uniparentally from one generation to the next - father to son in the case of the Y-chromosome and mother to child in the case of mtDNA - which makes them especially useful to trace lineages.

Mitochondrial DNA is a circular structure composed of 13 genes and exists, as the name indicates, in mitochondria, which are organelles responsible for energy production in the cell. Mitochondrial DNA sequences can be divided in different groups – haplogroups – according to genetic variations (or polymorphisms). Each haplogroup can then be divided into sub-clades (or sub-groups) according to further polymorphisms. Because it is possible to calculate the changes occurring in mtDNA in a certain period of time (the rate of change is constant and known) it is possible to follow in time the different sub-clades and learn when they did get separated, and consequently their individual migrations/geographical separations.
And in fact, the study of mtDNA haplogroups has been used to understand better the migrations of human population throughout evolution. Unfortunately, this has not been possible in Europe, although some progress has been made on a relatively rare haplogroup V. But around half of the European mtDNA sequences belong to a haplogroup (H) and so far it had been impossible to understand its evolutionary pathway in the continent.
But now Luísa Pereira, Martin Richards, Ana Goios, Vincent Macaulay, António Amorim and colleagues from Spain, Israel, Russia, Germany, Dubai, Czech Republic and Ireland, taking advantage of recently available information on haplogroup H polymorphisms, decided to make a new attempt to understand the European migrations throughout evolution. The team of scientists analysed 649 individuals of the H haplogroup from 20 populations throughout Europe, Caucasus and the near East and, by managing to trace the localisation of the different sub-clades, were able to further resolve the evolutionary (and migrational) history of haplogroup H and modern Europeans.
In fact, it is believed that haplogroup H evolved in the Near East around 28.000-30.000 years ago and spread throughout Europe 20.000 years ago. Although it was thought that some, or all, of the European population of this haplogroup have re-expanded throughout the continent from a European glacial refuge 15.000 years ago, this was not possible to be confirmed. Now Pereira, Richards, Goios, Macaulay, Amorim and colleagues’ work not only confirms that in fact the oldest lineage of H (called H*) was found in the near East and entered Europe during the peak of the last Ice Age, but also claims to have identified the glacial refuge in Europe from where humans re-expanded as Iberia.
Pereira, Richards, Goios, Macaulay, Amorim and colleagues’ work is important for the history of human evolution suggesting that **most modern Europeans evolved from hunter-gathers that expanded at the end of the last Ice Age (end of the Palaeolithic) from a glacial refuge in Iberia** where they have stayed for around 10,000 years after an initial migration from the Near East.

Piece researched and written by: Catarina Amorim, Linacre College, Oxford. More can be read at Genome Research.

posted 25 September 2005 06:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Posts:

"...most modern Europeans evolved from hunter-gathers that expanded at the end of the last Ice Age (end of the Palaeolithic) from a glacial refuge in Iberia** where they have stayed for around 10,000 years after an initial migration from the Near East...."

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Thought Writes:

The genetic evidence from Greece indicates that THEIR ancestors migrated into europe in part from Africa during the Neolithic period.

posted 26 September 2005 06:15 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dumb Ape #1:
Dark Euros have 24% paternal bloodline from Black Africa, Pale Euros have about 2%.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dumb Ape #2:
Greeks and other Southern Europeans are genetic outliers when compared to Northern European Y-Chromosome lineages.

---

* Yaaaaaawwwn *

- Negroid mtDNA in Europeans:

Greek - none = 0%
Italian - 8/411 L = 1.9%
Sicilian - 1/106 L2a = 0.9%
Spanish - 9/419 L = 2.1%

British - 1/100 L1c = 1%
Norwegian - 1/74 L2 = 1.4%
Finnish - 1/50 L3 = 2%

- Negroid Y-chromosomes in Europeans:

Greek - 1/366 A = 0.3%
Italian - 1/416 E(xE3b) = 0.2%
Sicilian - none = 0%
Spanish - 2/475 E3a = 0.4%

German - 1/95 A = 1.1%
Austrian - 1/129 E(xE3b) = 0.8%
French - 1/40 E(xE3b) = 2.5%

- Caucasoid autosomal DNA of Europeans:

Sardinian - 0.99
Tuscan - 0.99
Italian - 0.98
Basque - 0.98

Scottish - 0.98
French - 0.97
Norwegian - 0.96
Russian - 0.93

- Y-chromosome Map:

- Racial Affiliations of Haplogroups:

posted 26 September 2005 06:39 AM            

quote:

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Thought Writes:

The genetic evidence from Greece indicates that THEIR ancestors migrated into europe in part from Africa during the Neolithic period.

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posted 26 September 2005 12:40 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
* Yaaaaaawwwn *

[b]- Negroid mtDNA in Europeans:

Greek - none = 0%
Italian - 8/411 L = 1.9%
Sicilian - 1/106 L2a = 0.9%
Spanish - 9/419 L = 2.1%

British - 1/100 L1c = 1%
Norwegian - 1/74 L2 = 1.4%
Finnish - 1/50 L3 = 2%

- Negroid Y-chromosomes in Europeans:

Greek - 1/366 A = 0.3%
Italian - 1/416 E(xE3b) = 0.2%
Sicilian - none = 0%
Spanish - 2/475 E3a = 0.4%

German - 1/95 A = 1.1%
Austrian - 1/129 E(xE3b) = 0.8%
French - 1/40 E(xE3b) = 2.5%

- Caucasoid autosomal DNA of Europeans:

Sardinian - 0.99
Tuscan - 0.99
Italian - 0.98
Basque - 0.98

Scottish - 0.98
French - 0.97
Norwegian - 0.96
Russian - 0.93

- Y-chromosome Map:

- Racial Affiliations of Haplogroups:

[This message has been edited by Evil Euro (edited 26 September 2005).][/B]

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Thought Writes:

Hi Evil E,

posted 27 September 2005 06:45 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Thought2:
Can you please provide us with the PEER-REVIEWED, scientific study that states that these mtDNA and Y-Chromosome lineages are "Negroid" or shall we assume that we have caught you making things up on your own again?

---

posted 27 September 2005 09:27 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evil Euro:
Okay, fine. They're not Negroid. They're Martian lineages. Happy now?

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Thought Writes:

posted 27 September 2005 11:54 PM            

http://www.italianrap.com/italam/italam_race.html

Italian Americans and Race
Race has long been a factor in Italian identity. After national unification in 1861, northern Italians racialized the South as a land of lazy, violent, criminal inferior people. "Africa begins at Rome," is an old adage still heard today in Italy.

Southern Italians' racial ambiguity has been championed by the Italian group Almamegretta, in their hit "Hannibal's Children :

That's why many Italians have dark skin
That's why many Italians have dark hair
That's why many Italians have dark eyes
That's why many Italians have dark skin

Some of Hannibal's blood remained in everybody's veins (2x)
Nobody can say I'm lying (2x)
If you know your history, you know where the color of the blood that runs in your veins comes from (2x)

Italian immigrants encountered a racist system based on socially marked categories of "white" and "black." Italians often found themselves in an in-between position of not quite black and not quite white, while always receiving the benefits of whiteness from the federal government. In wasn't until the 1930s and 1940s that Italian Americans began to assert a "white" identity, and sometimes with a vengeance.

This is an exteremly superfical recap of a complicated history that scholars, artists, and others are exploring with increased attention. Here are some sites, publicatiions, and films worth checking out:

Robert Orsi, "The Religious Boundaries of an Inbetween People: Street Feste and the Problem of the Dark-Skinned Other in Italian Harlem, 1920-1990," in Gods of the City: Religion and the American Urban Landscape.

Orsi's seminal article explores how "swarty" Italian Americans became white in racist America.

Thomas Guglielmo, White on Arrival: Italians, Race, Color, and Power in Chicago, 1890-1945

"Immigrating to the United States, Italians, like all others arriving on America's shores, were made to fill out a standardized immigration form. In the box for race, they faced two choices: North Italian or South Italian. On the line requesting information on color, they wrote simply "white." By World War II, the only option they had for race and color questions was "white." This identification is suggestive of the many ways in which Italians became white on arrival in the United States, as Thomas A. Guglielmo demonstrates in this prize-winning book. While many suffered from racial prejudice and discrimination, they were nonetheless viewed as white, with all the privileges this color classification bestowed, in the corridors of American power--from judges to journalists, from organized labor to politicians, from race scientists to realtors. "

Jennifer Guglielmo and Salvatore Salerno, eds. Are Italians White?: How Race is Made in America

"This collection of original essays asks the question - Are Italians White? Each piece carefully explores how, when and why whiteness became important to Italian Americans, and the significance of gender, class and nation to racial identity."

David Richards, Italian American: The Racializing of an Ethnic Identity

"Delving into the political and legal context of flawed liberal nationalism both in Italy (the Risorgimento) and the United States (Reconstruction Amendments), Richards examines why Italian Americans were so reluctant to influence depictions of themselves and their own collective identity. He argues that American racism could not have had the durability or political power it has had either in the popular understanding or in the corruption of constitutional ideals unless many new immigrants, themselves often regarded as racially inferior, had been drawn into accepting and supporting many of the terms of American racism."

Matthew Frye Jacobson, Whiteness of a Different Color: European Immigrants and the Alchemy of Race
"... Jacobson argues that race resides not in nature but in the contingencies of politics and culture. In ever-changing racial categories we glimpse the competing theories of history and collective destiny by which power has been organized and contested in the United States. Capturing the excitement of the new field of "whiteness studies" and linking it to traditional historical inquiry, Jacobson shows that in this nation of immigrants 'race' has been at the core of civic assimilation: ethnic minorities in becoming American were reracialized to become Caucasian."

Andrea Dottolo's "Situating Whiteness in Italian Identity."

Prof. Natasha Chang's class "Race, Ethnicity, and Italian American Identity" at Middlebury College.

Father James Groppi, civil rights activist.

Spike Lee has paid special attention to the relationship between Italian American and African Americans in his two films Do the Right Thing (more info) and Jungle Fever (more info).

Here's a sampling of some famous Italo-African Americans:

Philly's spoken word recording artist Ursula Rucker

R&B singer Alicia Keys

"Interdisciplinary" artist and culture critic Coco Fusco's parents are black Cuban and Italian American.
Brooklyn Dodgers catcher Roy Campanella

Pittsburgh Steelers running back Franco Harris

actor Giancarlo Esposito

poet Nikki Giovanni

Legendary graffiti pioneer Dondi's (1961-1998) mom was Sicilian.

DJ Kid Capri aka David Anthony Love.
Prince — believe it!
while he ain't saying, the word is that actor Vin Diesel is part Italian.

posted 28 September 2005 12:05 AM            

Most of the information was researched and done before palentologist started tracking DNA.

Now at the end of the day its all the same, my ancestors F*CKED your ancestors and had a rowdy good time, it wasn't beastility so its all good!

posted 28 September 2005 12:08 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by sonomod:
All right this is really stupid.

Most of the information was researched and done before palentologist started tracking DNA.

Now at the end of the day its all the same, my ancestors F*CKED your ancestors and had a rowdy good time, it wasn't beastility so its all good!

Sheesh! Who cares?

---

Thought Writes:

posted 28 September 2005 12:12 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thought2:
Thought Writes:

I am not certain what you are trying to say?

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posted 28 September 2005 12:14 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by sonomod:
All right this is really stupid.

Most of the information was researched and done before palentologist started tracking DNA.

Now at the end of the day its all the same, my ancestors F*CKED your ancestors and had a rowdy good time, it wasn't beastility so its all good!

Sheesh! Who cares?

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The thread and topic....is more debatable then the countless pointless thread on AE...

your rowdy bitch that needs to get laid... so get up and stop postin spam

All indig afros whether diverse morpho-phenos are related via PN2.....

posted 28 September 2005 12:21 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by mali:
The thread and topic....is more debatable then the countless pointless thread on AE...

your rowdy bitch that needs to get laid... so get up and stop postin spam

All indig afros whether diverse morpho-phenos are related via PN2.....

while as stated countless times...Euros especially...southerners are outliers do not share common origin with northerners via clade.

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Oh good God, rowdy bitch, .....Yeah it fits the bill. Good for you, you got one thing right this week.

Why the hell is it worth debating the difference of people's skulls from the opposite ends of the earth?

Do you understand how the study of skull shapes began?

National Geographic pushed the study of skulls into the limelight through its publication and the people who backed this new school of human study wasn't an institute or university, but a group of British and American @ssholes who thought they could prove that whites were superior to all other races.

So most of the study of skulls is based on racism by rich b@stards who were fighting the 20th century so they could continue their imperial wealth gathering and keep people like you Mali toiling in their factories.

So give up this stupid **** , and get on with your life. I thinks its funnier than hell that people who are so damn proud of their heritage examine the differences between the races with psydo-science created by white-supremtists.

Man, got to love stupidity!

And about getting laid, hmm.... Why don't you go open up a psydo-scientific group that collects data on the "National Shlong" and its desirable and not so desirable features.

Then when you have gathered your reports from every corner of the globe, come back to ES on the AE section and tell me which ethnic/racial group has the best d*ck!

Now Mali I am sure you have the intellectual integrity and the lean resilent crevice to test that survey!

posted 28 September 2005 12:36 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by sonomod:

Oh good God, rowdy bitch, .....Yeah it fits the bill. Good for you, you got one thing right this week.

Why the hell is it worth debating the difference of people's skulls from the opposite ends of the earth?

Do you understand how the study of skull shapes began?

National Geographic pushed the study of skulls into the limelight through its publication and the people who backed this new school of human study wasn't an institute or university, but a group of British and American @ssholes who thought they could prove that whites were superior to all other races.

So most of the study of skulls is based on racism by rich b@stards who were fighting the 20th century so they could continue their imperial wealth gathering and keep people like you Mali toiling in their factories.

So give up this stupid **** , and get on with your life. I thinks its funnier than hell that people who are so damn proud of their heritage examine the differences between the races with psydo-science created by white-supremtists.

Man, got to love stupidity!

And about getting laid, hmm.... Why don't you go open up a psydo-scientific group that collects data on the "National Shlong" and its desirable and not so desirable features.

Then when you have gathered your reports from every corner of the globe, come back to ES on the AE section and tell me which ethnic/racial group has the best d*ck!

Now Mali I am sure you have the intellectual integrity and the lean resilent crevice to test that survey!

[This message has been edited by sonomod (edited 28 September 2005).]

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LMAO.... socially..u've got a point to do modern science justice.. pseudos and there social meth of categorizing ppls based on skulls has back fired...

anyways.... case close...a comical gesture and ur meanless post after another to end this meanful thread wont work ...

posted 28 September 2005 12:40 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by mali:
LMAO.... socially..u've got a point to do modern science justice.. pseudos and there social meth of categorizing ppls based on skulls has back fired...

anyways.... case close...a comical gesture and ur meanless post after another to end this meanful thread wont work ...

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posted 28 September 2005 12:42 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by mali:
LMAO.... socially..u've got a point to do modern science justice.. pseudos and there social meth of categorizing ppls based on skulls has back fired...

anyways.... case close...a comical gesture and ur meanless post after another to end this meanful thread wont work ...

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You don't get it do you?

A vast mainstay of this very type of study with all of its bull is purely based on the study of skulls.

So its basis is in racism. And you don't mind that one bit, as long as you are not considered a sub-saharan African.

As long as you are not the bottom rung in a worthless century of comparing human beings to support a world order with whites on top.

How can you put your faith in a philosophy that supported Nazism? Oh I guesss its okay since the point of Nazism was to eliminate the Jews. But then when the Jews are gone, its time to start eliminating anyone who doesn't look like me (albino Eskimo, sonomod).

Why does this concept scare me more than you?

posted 28 September 2005 12:54 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by sonomod:
You don't get it do you?

A vast mainstay of this very type of study with all of its bull is purely based on the study of skulls.

So its basis is in racism. And you don't mind that one bit, as long as you are not considered a sub-saharan African.

As long as you are not the bottom rung in a worthless century of comparing human beings to support a world order with whites on top.

How can you put your faith in a philosophy that supported Nazism? Oh I guesss its okay since the point of Nazism was to eliminate the Jews. But then when the Jews are gone, its time to start eliminating anyone who doesn't look like me (albino Eskimo, sonomod).

Why does this concept scare me more than you?

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posted 28 September 2005 01:05 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by mali:
Lol...pathetic but hilarious....by the way does a standard desktop fit in a iglo....

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Nevermind about the freakin iglo.

And you avoid responding to my questions because I have you figured out.

I hate how.....

Uff you really need to take a look at the book called, "Daggers and Veils" by Linda Steet.

She had a very convincing argument against the National Geographic society.

Now if she could address this 'Luis Farakan' mentality of yours. Then she'd have the other part of the equation in full.

USA has its share of Free Blacks who lent alot of support behind the 'Skull study' movement and went to east africa and down south in the US in order to measure skulls for these psydo scientists to put you on the second to last rung of the evolutionary chain.

Again according to these sellouts, I am on the top of the scale and your satisfied with being superior to sub-saharan blacks and naturally American blacks.

And it that what suits you, then you'll burn in hell for it!

posted 28 September 2005 01:17 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by sonomod:

Nevermind about the freakin iglo.

And you avoid responding to my questions because I have you figured out.

I hate how.....

Uff you really need to take a look at the book called, "Daggers and Veils" by Linda Steet.

She had a very convincing argument against the National Geographic society.

Now if she could address this 'Luis Farakan' mentality of yours. Then she'd have the other part of the equation in full.

USA has its

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posted 28 September 2005 01:27 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by mali:
LMAO....what does FARAKan ...have to do with morpho.... pseudo is completly baseless unreliable and invalid...proven by modern science... u trying to "figure me out" is also useless.... ur socio imagination has not contributed to the topic... personal response prove nothing....

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Okay you don't understand much about the "Nation of Islam" do you?

Luis Farakan is its leader and until 9/11 he was recruiting through the prison system heavily. Luis felt that African Americans true faith is Islam.

Luis Farakan and many of his boys are from 'Free Blacks'. He claims his ancestors were slaves brought to the USA, but a group has proven that is ancestors helped facilitate that slave trade. many in the Carribean helped organize the slave trade and did keep many of their Muslim customs intact.

But some of the "fathers of the Nation of Islam" was a group who went first to East Africa to measure the skulls of your brothern and then went to the American South and helped National Geography with their sinful study of measuring skulls.

Whats even more dispicable is the fact that paleontology and anthropology stuck to the basis of human migration, not specifically on the human remains found during the bronze age, but also tieing together the gaps with the 'measurement of skulls' to help legitimize their findings since a heap of bones don't explain as much.

So alot of those studies above are based not on true science but on the 'measurement of skulls'.

Anthropologist, archeologists and paleontologists are now removing the data and theories created from these 'measurement of skulls' studies and recognstructing history.

Thats why I find so much of this race centered hysteria complete crap!