posted
Does everyone here feel the sin of our grand grand father Adam ? if yes, how strong do you feel it?
Posts: 130 | From: foggy bottom | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
Sin and salvation are central categories in Christian theology and spirituality. Christianity teaches that the effects of original sin have corrupted the world and the human beings who exist in it. I believe the Islamic rejection of original sin is really the rejection of a 'specific understanding' -what I would consider to be a 'narrow' understanding -of original sin.
Christianity understands original sin in this way: No sin that is committed is without its effect. Every sin that you and I commit -every sin that is ever committed - disrupts the entire cosmos. Your sin has an effect not only on you but on everyone and everything else. Any sin that you and I commit has a reverberation throughout the world, throughout the cosmos. Every puff that you take on your cigarette pollutes the air that everyone else breathes, so to speak. So when the Old Testament claims that the sin of the father will be visited upon the children, it is not issuing a threat; it is simply describing reality. Think about this proposition, and I think you will recognize that it is true. Is it realistic to claim, as Muslims do, that Adam and Eve's sin- the first of the human race! - had no effects in the world into which all other human beings were born? I do not think so!
No, sin indeed has a "snowball effect": it accumulates throughout human history, impacting upon all who are born into the world. (Actually, we feel the effects of sin even before our birth, while still in our mother's womb!) What started this off was the sin of Adam and Eve - the first, or original, sin in this process. For Christians to say that all suffer the effects of original sin is not to say that all are "born guilty" but rather that all human beings have to deal with the powerful force of sin that has accumulated from the sin of our First Parents until the present day.
Once you understand original sin in this way, I think the need for salvation -the ability to break loose from the overwhelming bonds of sin that have grown stronger and stronger through the ages becomes evident. With sin's effects everywhere around us, we have an undeniable proclivity to sin; and no one is capable of freeing himself or herself from sin's grip. Because Islam has understandably reacted against the deficient understanding of original sin it has tended not to be receptive to this more realistic understanding of the pervasive effects of sin on all human beings. Thus, it sees no need for salvation; it cannot understand how Christ's death and resurrection brings salvation. "Salvation from what?" they ask. Just as it is unthinkable to Muslims that one person should have to shoulder the guilt for another person's sin, it is unthinkable that another person (in this case, Christ) would be able to pay the penalty for another person's sins.
Furthermore, because Muslims believe that prophets are sinless (this doctrine is known as isma'), it seems a blasphemy to say that Christ died the shameful death of a sinner on the cross. They therefore deny that it was Jesus that was crucified; they say that it was Judas (whom God made to look like Jesus so that he would suffer his rightful penalty for betrayal). Through such a story, Muslim see themselves as protecting the prophetic integrity of Jesus, since a true prophet, according to Islam, could not suffer the indignity that Jesus did. Muslims affirm that Jesus ascended to heaven but deny that he died on the cross.
Because Muslims do not recognize the universal and corruptive power of sin, unleashed as a result of original sin, they see no need for salvation in the Christian sense. If there is no sin that has a throttle-hold on you, you do not need to be saved from it. What you should do, according to the Islamic view, is to live a good life, pleasing God in all that you do. Submit to God and follow His directives. Religion, to the Muslim, does not mean salvation from sin; it means following the right path, or the sharia, mapped out by Islamic law. While Christianity is a faith concerned primarily with "orthodoxy," or "right belief," Islam is a faith concerned primarily with "orthopraxy," or right practice. It is a religion of law, and it sees Christianity's rejection of the Law (as taught by St. Paul in his writings, especially Romans and Galatians) as a serious deficiency in the Christian way of life. This, of course, does not mean that Islam is not at all concerned with right doctrine or that Christianity is not at all concerned with right practice. It simply means that the emphasis is different in the two religions.
But that difference in emphasis is very important. If one recognizes the pervasive power of sin, salvation is not just an option; it is a necessity. Christians lament the fact that a faulty presentation of original sin led early Islam to "throw out the baby with the bath water" with regard to their understanding of sin. By reacting against an anemic understanding of original sin, as I have described it, they have missed what Christians consider to be the central truth of human existence: that no matter how hard one tries to conform to "right practice," he or she will fall short of the goal. We cannot live the kind of life that God wants by our own power.... And that is why salvation is necessary.
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posted
Forget about Islam, as a human being, do you feel the sin of your grandfather?
Posts: 130 | From: foggy bottom | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
If you claim to be born without a sin nature (an inborn propensity toward sin rather than a natural propensity toward righteousness), then how long can you go without sinning? Can you go for a week without sin? How about a day? If you are born basically good, then why does one need to struggle and make a conscious effort to be good and not need to struggle to be bad? Why do we naturally drift toward selfishness and not righteousness?
See a great discussion that covers this and a whole lot more herePosts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Undercover: If you claim to be born without a sin nature (an inborn propensity toward sin rather than a natural propensity toward righteousness), then how long can you go without sinning? Can you go for a week without sin? How about a day? If you are born basically good, then why does one need to struggle and make a conscious effort to be good and not need to struggle to be bad? Why do we naturally drift toward selfishness and not righteousness?
See a great discussion that covers this and a whole lot more here
THE BORN NEW BABIES ARE IN A SIN?? Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Christianity holds that people are born with a sin nature that separates them from God. This nature means that human beings have a penchant and proclivity to sin that they inherited from the first man, Adam, after he sinned in the Garden of Eden. Further, it means that man is incapable of doing any work that will earn him salvation. Man must be transformed by the Spirit of God in order to be found holy enough to abide in God's presence.
Both Islam and Christianity believe that God created Adam in a Paradise as the first man, and that Adam disobeyed God by taking of a forbidden fruit.
The Problem of Islamic Salvation: Islam, though, holds Adam to be a prophet of God. As with most prophets in the Islamic faith, Adam should be sinless. It does not make sense to an Islamic viewpoint that a prophet of God would be sinful the way the average man is today. Norman Geisler, in his book Answering Islam writes,
"Muslim scholars are of the opinion that prophets are either completely sinless or at least free from all major sins or faults. Some orthodox Muslims claim that even the power of sinning does not exist in the prophets. For example, Ibn Khaldun, the classical Muslim scholar (d.1406) says that 'their characteristic mark is that before the coming revelation to them they were all found to be naturally good and sagacious, such men as shun blameworthy actions and all things unclean.' This, he believes 'is the meaning of their impeccability. (isma) Thus they seem to have an instinctive inclination to rise above things that are blameworthy and even shrink from them as though such things were repugnant to their born disposition."
This is one example, though, of where we have a logical contradiction. If Adam was made perfect by God and part of a world in which no sin yet existed, and he willingly did sin, then how could he have "shunned blameworthy actions"? Many Muslim scholars try to resolve this by claiming that Adam didn't really sin, but merely had a lapse of judgment. This doesn't solve the issue, though. If Adam didn't commit a grievous sin, then how does one account for the introduction of evil in the world? Also, if directly disobeying a command of God is just a lapse in judgment, then how could anything be considered really sinful?
Now this type of tension in Islamic belief isn't merely restricted to the fall of Adam. Muslims run into a real problem with the problem of evil because of their insistence that God is so sovereign, every act originates with him - even evil ones! This type of extreme determinism is illustrated in a quote from the authoritative Islamic theologian Al-Maturidi (d.944A.D.) who writes:
"The sins of man occur by God's will (irada), wish (mashi'a), ordinance (qada'), and power (qadr), but not by His pleasure (rida), love (mahabba), and command (amr), according to His Word, be He exalted: 'He whom God wills to send astray, He maketh his bosom close and narrow' (6:125), and His Word: 'Yet ye will nothing, unless God wills it.'(76:31). If the creature were able to act by his own will, he could prevail over the will of God- be He exalted."
You can see in the example above that we have only God's will in view here. Man cannot exercise his own volition. However, this means that every sin anyone commits, it was God who willed it and therefore forced the human to commit it. Thus God become the author of evil by instigating evil acts, and he becomes incredibly unjust in condemning men for committing the very acts that he willed them to do!
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posted
it is so simple gents, man is made out of clay and Allah give him a portion of his light, so he is trapped all his passage way (life span), between his heavy ground material and the lighter light he was given. He is the only creature to differntiate between the right and wrong, and prophets came to teach him to behave, behave. This was the way human were created and to be a follower u need to behave, regardless u r muslim, christian or........
Posts: 125 | From: Egypt | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Undercover: If you claim to be born without a sin nature (an inborn propensity toward sin rather than a natural propensity toward righteousness), then how long can you go without sinning? Can you go for a week without sin? How about a day? If you are born basically good, then why does one need to struggle and make a conscious effort to be good and not need to struggle to be bad? Why do we naturally drift toward selfishness and not righteousness?
See a great discussion that covers this and a whole lot more here
I do not talk about myself, this is about the grand grandfather's sin, do you feel it? if yes, please tell me how?
Posts: 130 | From: foggy bottom | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Undercover: If you claim to be born without a sin nature (an inborn propensity toward sin rather than a natural propensity toward righteousness), then how long can you go without sinning? Can you go for a week without sin? How about a day? If you are born basically good, then why does one need to struggle and make a conscious effort to be good and not need to struggle to be bad? Why do we naturally drift toward selfishness and not righteousness?
See a great discussion that covers this and a whole lot more here
I do not talk about myself, this is about the grand grandfather's sin, do you feel it? if yes, please tell me how?
can you feel the sins of your own mother?? if no, how can you feel your grand grandfather's sin?!!!!
Posts: 76 | From: Hurghada | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Undercover: If you claim to be born without a sin nature (an inborn propensity toward sin rather than a natural propensity toward righteousness), then how long can you go without sinning? Can you go for a week without sin? How about a day? If you are born basically good, then why does one need to struggle and make a conscious effort to be good and not need to struggle to be bad? Why do we naturally drift toward selfishness and not righteousness?
See a great discussion that covers this and a whole lot more here
I do not talk about myself, this is about the grand grandfather's sin, do you feel it? if yes, please tell me how?
The sin of Adam wasn't stealing or killing but was disobeying God and the punishment of God was separating him from his presence and sent him to the Land of suffering not only him but with his descended that will come after…otherwise we could be in heaven now.so the sin means separation from God and what me and you and everyone are doing is trying to talk and act to God by different ways hopefully we can feel his presence and care with us,so the answer is YES everyone feel the sin of Adam and Eve..
It's better to read what God said to Adam in Genesis 3 3:17,24
17 To Adam he said, "Because you have listened to your wife's voice, and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying,'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground for your sake. In toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.
18 Thorns also and thistles will it bring forth to you; and you will eat the herb of the field.
19 By the sweat of your face will you eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For you are dust, and to dust you shall return."
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posted
My grand father is without a sin, And as he Was crated, Lived and Dies without a sin, I was also born without a sin, but unlike him I have accumulated sins, when I start growing up, but non of these sins are inherited from any one, they are all my own fault, and I wont blame anyone for them nor would I ask anyone to take the burden of them for me.
posted
Why we die? Why death, disease etc entered world?
God created man in His Image and established our first parents - Adam and Eve - in His friendship. This friendship included Sanctifying grace - the gift of holiness and eternal life. Adam, however, freely chose to live apart from God by trusting instead in the knowledge of good and evil - wanting to be like gods. Adam rejected God through disobedience and lost this friendship for himself and us. This loss is original sin.
Violation of the law of God in thought, word, and deed shows the sinfulness of the human heart. Sin is actually a contradiction to the holiness of God, whose image mankind bears.
Now the doctrine of original sin cannot be proven by natural reason, but it is easily witnessed by its symptoms: the need for police, the collapse of great civilizations, suicide, suffering and so on. Another symptom is war. People have always and will always kill each other in mass quantity. The more advanced, civilized cultures merely execute war more efficiently. War is not exclusively reserved for nations. Street gangs, families or a single terrorist can rage war. But war is exclusively a human endeavor. Monkeys, though nimble with their fingers, do not make bombs, guns or even knives. Man on the other hand has fashioned the most primitive weapons out of stone before he could record history. In recent years, man has successfully sent robots to explore distant planets but still lives under the threat of nuclear holocaust. Even though man is intelligent and capable of doing great works, war quickly reminds us of our fallen state - a state sometimes appearing to be beneath animals. Without the doctrine of original sin, this paradox of humanity is an even deeper mystery.
Some may object to the idea of inheriting sin; however, these people forget about human solidarity - the human race as one big family. Even though we are responsible for our actions due to human free will, our deeds still affect other people and vice versa. If I drive while drunk, my action can deprive someone else of their life. If my children see me stealing, then they will more likely choose to steal as a result of my example and so on. Now original sin is not due to our action, so it is not our personal fault. However as a result of human solidarity and Adam as the father of the human race, we still inherit the state of Adam's sin - "a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice". This disharmony between human free will and human solidarity is a consequence of original sin.
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quote:Originally posted by welsafty: My grand father is without a sin, And as he Was crated, Lived and Dies without a sin, I was also born without a sin, but unlike him I have accumulated sins, when I start growing up, but non of these sins are inherited from any one, they are all my own fault, and I wont blame anyone for them nor would I ask anyone to take the burden of them for me.
Don't you know the Hadith of prophet Muhammed "Adam sinned so his descended sinned"
حدثنا عبد بن حميد حدثنا أبو نعيم حدثنا هشام بن سعد عن زيد بن أسلم عن أبي صالح عن أبي هريرة قال قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم لما خلق الله آدم مسح ظهره فسقط من ظهره كل نسمة هو خالقها من ذريته إلى يوم القيامة وجعل بين عيني كل إنسان منهم وبيصا من نور ثم عرضهم على آدم فقال أي رب من هؤلاء قال هؤلاء ذريتك فرأى رجلا منهم فأعجبه وبيص ما بين عينيه فقال أي رب من هذا فقال هذا رجل من آخر الأمم من ذريتك يقال له داود فقال رب كم جعلت عمره قال ستين سنة قال أي رب زده من عمري أربعين سنة فلما قضي عمر آدم جاءه ملك الموت فقال أولم يبق من عمري أربعون سنة قال أولم تعطها ابنك داود قال فجحد آدم فجحدت ذريته ونسي آدم فنسيت ذريته وخطئ آدم فخطئت ذريته
posted
I don’t have to explain this, This is a bogus hadith,
Regardless of how silly the whole story line is, the bigist give away for the absolute un authenticity of this hadith is the language itself, as if it was told by a guy who’s Arabic isn’t his first language, plus the last part Adam was un grateful and so his offspring, and Adam have forgotten and so his offspring, and Adam have sinned and so his offspring,
And why don’t you read the source you have quoted this BOGUS hadith from and see hoe it ends.
Even Muslim and Bukhara refused to produce this habit, in their so called sa7i7
And either way I reject any hadith that tells us that any prophet or massager committed any sin
quote:Originally posted by welsafty: My grand father is without a sin, And as he Was crated, Lived and Dies without a sin, I was also born without a sin, but unlike him I have accumulated sins, when I start growing up, but non of these sins are inherited from any one, they are all my own fault, and I wont blame anyone for them nor would I ask anyone to take the burden of them for me.
Don't you know the Hadith of prophet Muhammed "Adam sinned so his descended sinned"
حدثنا عبد بن حميد حدثنا أبو نعيم حدثنا هشام بن سعد عن زيد بن أسلم عن أبي صالح عن أبي هريرة قال قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم لما خلق الله آدم مسح ظهره فسقط من ظهره كل نسمة هو خالقها من ذريته إلى يوم القيامة وجعل بين عيني كل إنسان منهم وبيصا من نور ثم عرضهم على آدم فقال أي رب من هؤلاء قال هؤلاء ذريتك فرأى رجلا منهم فأعجبه وبيص ما بين عينيه فقال أي رب من هذا فقال هذا رجل من آخر الأمم من ذريتك يقال له داود فقال رب كم جعلت عمره قال ستين سنة قال أي رب زده من عمري أربعين سنة فلما قضي عمر آدم جاءه ملك الموت فقال أولم يبق من عمري أربعون سنة قال أولم تعطها ابنك داود قال فجحد آدم فجحدت ذريته ونسي آدم فنسيت ذريته وخطئ آدم فخطئت ذريته
Every time we ask a mere clear question, you go to Islam, again, forget about Islam. Do you, yourself, feel the sin of your grandfather?
Posts: 130 | From: foggy bottom | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by pure spring: Every time we ask a mere clear question, you go to Islam, again, forget about Islam. Do you, yourself, feel the sin of your grandfather?
I replied to you above but you didn't notice,I quote from Islam to make my opinion familiar to Muslim as the Bible corrupted from their view without proof of course.the hadith I quoted was respond to welsafty who denied the concept of inherited sin through Adam while the hadith confirmed this idea.
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quote:Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine: this is born with no sins
end of the story
Thank you. No just mind accepts the idea of transferring other's mistakes, or sins to the others.No one can accept to carry the sins of close relatives. No fair Court would accept to trial a son instead of his father or mother and to be punished on behalf of them. These are basics in this life.
Posts: 130 | From: foggy bottom | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine: this is born with no sins
end of the story
The Bible does not present an explicit teaching on this. Some Muslims like to ask if Children who die young go to Heaven because of original sin. If not, then this is unjust. In Islam children supposedly do go to heaven. ... However, I found these hadith:
Sahih Muslim, Book 32, Number 6435:
Narrated Aisha:
A child died and I said: There is happiness for this child who is a bird from amongst the birds of Paradise. Thereupon Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) said: Don't you know that Allah created the Paradise and He created the Hell and He created the dwellers for this (Paradise) and the denizens for this (Hell)?
When Aisha expresses her belief and expectation of happiness for the child that died, Muhammad disagrees and instead states that God has created some people for Hell. Obviously, this includes children, because that is the topic of the conversation.
Malik's Muwatta, Book 16, Number 16.16.53:
Narrated Abu Hurayrah:
The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Every child is born on the fitrah and it is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian. Just as a camel is born whole - do you perceive any defect?" They said, "Messenger of Allah, what happens to people who die when they are (very) young?" He said, "Allah knows best what they used to do (or would have done)."
This narration is not as strong as the first one, but again shows that Muhammad did not believe all children would automatically go to heaven. He says, we cannot know.
Posts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by pure spring: Thank you. No just mind accepts the idea of transferring other's mistakes, or sins to the others.No one can accept to carry the sins of close relatives. No fair Court would accept to trial a son instead of his father or mother and to be punished on behalf of them. These are basics in this life.
The question of original sin cannot be understood apart from its counter truth, the free gift of righteousness. By the "free gift" is meant an unconditional diffusion of grace to all men, as a first benefit of the universal atonement made by Jesus Christ.
When God, the fountain of spiritual life, withdrew himself from Adam, he died a spiritual death and became morally corrupt; and, as "that which is born of the flesh is flesh," all his posterity are in the same condition. Guilt toward God arises from illumination we receive from the Bible. It appears as the result of a breakdown in man’s obedience to God and his utter dependence upon God. It is a truly genuine guilt when the sinner knows in his innermost heart that he has disobeyed God, and that all such disobedience is sin. If a person is gripped with guilt-feelings which are a result of sin and the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, there is one solution, and only one. He must turn to God, trusting the redeeming work of Christ, and he may be veritably assured of forgiveness and cleansing. To all such the Bible says, “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool” (Isaiah 1:18). The New Testament adds its word, “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (I John 1:9).
When a person feels guilty because of sin, he does so because God has disapproved of that sin. He knows he has transgressed God’s law and therefore deserves to be punished. The guilt-feeling grows out of the fact that his fellowship with God has been marred. Every sin is an offense against God and stands in opposition to the holiness of God. We should be thankful to God that He has provided in man’s make-up and constitution the genuine and real guilt-feeling whenever sin enters. And praise be to God, Jesus Christ is able to free us from enslaving sin. “If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed” (John 8:36).
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posted
The curse of sin is death. The strength of sin is the Law. "I had not known sin except the law said thou shalt not covet" The Law is the knowledge of good and evil. Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam's sin brought death onto mankind and because of this sin, we all die. So yes we all feel the effects
The baby hasn't sinned but suffers the effects of sin. The baby will eventually experience death but sin will not be imputed unto him if he dies as a child because he has no knowledge of good or evil. He is not held accountable.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: The curse of sin is death. The strength of sin is the Law. "I had not known sin except the law said thou shalt not covet" The Law is the knowledge of good and evil. Adam ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam's sin brought death onto mankind and because of this sin, we all die. So yes we all feel the effects
The idea that Adam and Eve had eaten from the tree of knowledge against the will of God who does not want them to know good and evel,that idea means that God either is not able to know or not able to prevent it. This means that God does not deserve to be God.
Posts: 130 | From: foggy bottom | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote: The idea that Adam and Eve had eaten from the tree of knowledge against the will of God who does not want them to know good and evil,that idea means that God either is not able to know or not able to prevent it. This means that God does not deserve to be God.
Interesting perspective but not necessarily true. I think that everyone who believes in one God believes that God is God, all powerful and all knowing. So we should understand that he wanted sons that could choose him by choice. That is why we were created in his image. He gave us free will. Other wise we would be mindless, slaves or robots.
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? if yes, how strong do you feel it?
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