posted
Watching a news item in Afghanistan of a class of about 30 young boys in a madrassa rocking forwards and backwards reciting Quranic Verses all at different speeds and levels. Reminded me of the wailing wall where the Jews rock backwards and forwards reciting.
Question
Do you think that is the way to pray?
Rote, recitation, with a constant pitch and speed, with no thought to each word or it's meaning, then get up and back to work 5 times a day?
Jesus said "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." and "After this manner therefore pray ye" (Matthew 6)
Jesus is said to have prayed in private, away from distractions and noise. He prayed in prostration, and spoke to God one to one in a conversation.
Today followers congregate in places of worship, with mindless rote, minds wandering, kneeling, sitting, standing in the 3 religions.
Does God accept these prayers, these catechisms, these rote repetitions, or do you think that Jesus's way with a more meaningful communication with God is the right way for us?
Posts: 3416 | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
Yes, Matthew 6 certainly states prayer should be private- in a room with the door closed. Not out in public, or "street corners" as the passage says. But, then it goes on to give the lords prayer, suggesting that is what you should say. Surely that's not a meaningful communication if you are just repeating the bible in prayer, instead of what's in your heart.
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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Now I lay me down to sleep. Please don't send me no more creeps. Please just send me one good man. One without a wedding band.
One good man who's sweet as pie. Who brushed his teeth and doesn't lie. Who dresses neat and doesn't smell. And is sexy like my man Denzel.
Man, if I should die before I wake, that would truly take the cake; No matrimony or honeymoon. No fancy reception planned for June.
No throwing of the wedding bouquet. Please, God, don't let me go out that way. If I die before I meet Mr. Right I won't go out without a fight.
But then again with my luck, He'd probably be just some schmuck. The single life is not that bad I know it's just a passing fad.
I won't be blue. I will not frown. Besides, I like my toilet seat down. No more makeup, won't comb my hair. So never mind this stupid prayer.
The single life will do just fine. So what's up, girlfriend? It's party time!!
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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posted
Prayer 5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
9"This, then, is how you should pray: " 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, 10your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. 11Give us today our daily bread. 12Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.[a]' 14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Fasting 16"When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 17But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. Treasures in Heaven 19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22"The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
24"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money. Do Not Worry 25"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?
28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
WK I think that passage of the Lord's prayer doesn't necessarily mean that we have to chant it as it is written. If you look at it, it addresses all the main points of worship. The oneness and glory of God. To recreate on earth his ideals. He is our sustainer. Recognition of evil and sins and forgiveness. Asking him to help lead us away from evil sources and guidance. Forgiveness. It's a guidline I think. No a specific rote chant, more a reminder of what to be thinking of when we do pray. Dontcha think? The fasting part is interesting too. He tells us to put oil, then wash it off as only God will see it to denote fasting. During Ramadan it is all about ritual, showing off who can fast best, advertising to everyone your efforts, when that is not important what other people thinks of you but God himself. The greed and madness following each day of fasting, and then celebration of your achievement at Eid by partying and buying gifts etc. My God it's when you look at simple things like this it shows how much the moslems have corrupted the words of the Quran and interpreted them according to scholars and hadith Posts: 3416 | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Hermione Heliotrope.: Watching a news item in Afghanistan of a class of about 30 young boys in a madrassa rocking forwards and backwards reciting Quranic Verses all at different speeds and levels.
They must have been memorising the verses of Quran.There is a tradition in Islam,you know,Hafiz?(person who has learned the Koran by heart.)Those young boys you saw on Tv. were most probably being trained as Hafiz,they were memorising Koran.
Posts: 186 | From: Eurasia | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
There are also two kinds of zikr(mentioning God).One of them is hafi(hidden,private)the other one is cehri(openly).
Posts: 186 | From: Eurasia | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
I mean that those boys are memorising Quran by Zikr.There is nothing strange that they go forward and backward and doing it altogether.As for Zikr,if we look into the Quran we will find that the word Zikr occurs 268 times in the Quran and has 63 derivatives used in the Book, the Quran. This word Zikr has many connotations in Islam. Its almost opposite is Nissiyane (forgetting). This verb occurs 45 times in the Quran; and 28 of its derivatives have also been mentioned in the sacred Book.
The root of Zikr is Za-Kaf-Ra . Some of its meanings are:
* Az-Zikro Wattazk'aro : It means to preserve something, to keep alive in mind; this word is used opposite to NASYUN , which means to forget (6:68)
* At tazkerato : It means
To remind something which is needed
The Quran has also been called As-Zikro because it contains the history and Causes or Laws for the rise and fall of nations
Zikrun also means to remain steadfast in the battlefield and thus ensures the supremacy of Divine Laws. The Divine Laws are also called Zikrullah (39:23). It has also been used in the context of dignity, honour, respect, fame and saying something good (43:44)
Verse (2:152) says Faz Kurunee Azkur Kum -You keep in view My Laws and I shall protect your rights and grace you with dignity and honour'
In short Zikr means
To remain steadfast in the battle field
Ponder over the secrets of nature
Take lesson from the previous history of nations
Keep in view the Divine Laws and take decisions accordingly
Propagate or give publicity to the Divine Laws
These are the steps which install peace of mind (13:28) and not the rotation of beads or retreating to the caves or hujras
Keep these meanings in view, study the Quran and grasp the places where this word has been used. You will understand the real perspective and get the action verbs commanding you to do the things practically.
Posts: 186 | From: Eurasia | Registered: Jun 2008
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It just reminded me of when I was a child mindlessly reciting prayers and cathechism and not a clue about what I was actually saying. Robotic in every sense.
Maybe it is just me but chanting, like in a mantra only made me focus on the sound, of getting the speed and sound right. These kids were not even doing that. They were all sitting around a table all at different speeds and verses, just a rabble of noise with no meaning at all.
I find it hard to believe that a man can recite the entire Quran in that recitation style and be able to understand one word of it or connect with God. He can only be thinking in his brain of the next word the next verse so as not to make a mistake.
quote:Originally posted by Hermione Heliotrope.: I find it hard to believe that a man can recite the entire Quran in that recitation style and be able to understand one word of it or connect with God. He can only be thinking in his brain of the next word the next verse so as not to make a mistake.
or is it just me
No,it is not just you .I agree with you about that. But I think the meaning or undestanding is not important in recitation.May be,understanding is the next level after recitation.As I tried to explain above,the important thing in zikr is to make mention of God by heart.
Posts: 186 | From: Eurasia | Registered: Jun 2008
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.I agree with you about that.
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