posted
My harrowing story, by the teenage girl who was sentenced to 200 lashes after being gang raped in Saudi Arabia By RICHARD PENDLEBURY - More by this author » Last updated at 23:58pm on 30th November 2007
When a teenage girl was gang raped in Saudi Arabia,a court sentenced HER to 90 lashes. After she complained,it was increased to 200. Now, the victim speaks for the first time...
She was only 19 and a new bride when it happened.
Seven men held her at knifepoint and, for a number of hours, she was subjected to a horrific gang rape.
But when she later went to the authorities, they sentenced her to 90 lashes.
She complained in the media, so the punishment was increased to 200 lashes and imprisonment.
Her lawyer has been suspended for speaking out against it.
Too outlandish to be true? Well, these are the bare facts of the so- called "Qatif girl" case, which has become a cause celebre among Western liberals and in Saudi Arabia, the West's most important Middle Eastern ally.
Earlier this week, the Saudi foreign minister, Prince Saud al-Faisal, declared that what had happened was, indeed, an "outrage".
But he did not mean that the rape victim had suffered a gross injustice.
No, only that criticism of his country was a foreign conspiracy.
The plight of the anonymous victim has served to cast an embarrassing light on one of the world's most authoritarian and oppressive regimes.
Specifically, it has exposed the power of a judicial system based on the Sharia law of the extreme Wahhabi sect of Sunni Islam and its appalling treatment of women and persecution of religious minorities.
International pressure to clear the young woman is growing.
Now, as one Saudi judge who might well hear her latest appeal declares that she should have been sentenced to death, the victim's voice has been heard in public for the first time.
The pressure group Human Rights Watch has just released a transcript of an interview which the Qatif girl gave to one of its workers.
Her account reveals the horrific details of the original ordeal and how, having gone to the police, she was abused and demonised by the Saudi judicial system.
The attack took place in February last year and had its roots in a typical Saudi teenage arrangement which in the West would seem odd, but is a way of getting round the strict Islamic sex segregation laws.
Forbidden from approaching young women directly, young men make contact by publicly displaying their own mobile phone numbers on cards as they pass in the street or by dropping the cards through open car windows.
Others make contact using their phone's Bluetooth technology, which allows users to send messages to nearby mobile phones without knowing the telephone number.
"I had a relationship with someone on the phone," recalled the Qatif girl.
"It started when we were both 16. I had never seen him before, I just knew his voice. Then he started to threaten me and I got afraid.
"He threatened to tell my family about the relationship. Because of the threats and fear, I agreed to give him a photo of myself."
But when the girl wed another young man she became worried about the photo she had given to her "ex-boyfriend".
"I asked him for the photo back but he refused. He said: 'I'll give you the photo on the condition that you come out with me in my car.'
"I told him we could meet at a souk [market] near my neighbourhood in Qatif."
She recalled: "He started to drive me home, and when were about to turn the corner to my house, another car stopped right in front of our car.
"Two people got out of their car and stood on either side of our car. The man on my side had a knife.
"They tried to open our door. I told the individual with me not to open the door, but he did. He let them come in. I screamed."
The ordeal had begun.
"One of the men brought a knife to my throat. They told me not to speak. They pushed both of us to the back of the car and started driving. We drove a lot, but I didn't see anything since my head was forced down.
"They took us to an area with lots of palm trees. No one was there. If you kill someone there, no one would know about it."
First, they took the girl's male companion from the car.
He was the victim of homosexual rape a number of times during the course of the evening.
"I was so afraid," the girl said.
"Then they forced me out of the car. They pushed me really hard. I yelled out: 'Where are you taking me? I'm like your sister.'"
They took her to a building. Then two men came in and stripped her.
"The first man with the knife raped me. I was destroyed. I tried to force them off but I couldn't. Another man came in and did the same thing to me. I didn't even feel anything after that."
For two hours the girl begged the two men to take her home.
"I told them that it was late and that my family would be asking about me.
Then I saw a third man come into the room. There was a lot of violence.
After the third man came in, a fourth came. He slapped me and tried to choke me.
"The fifth and sixth ones were the most abusive. The fifth one took a photo of me like this. After the seventh one, I couldn't feel my body any more. I didn't know what to do. When a very fat man was on top of me I could no longer breathe."
Before she was eventually taken home by the gang, she was raped again by all seven attackers.
"They took my mobile and saw my husband's picture in my wallet.
"When I got out of the car [at her home], I couldn't even walk. I rang the doorbell and my mother opened the door. She said: 'You look tired.'
"She thought I was with my husband.
"I went to the hospital the next day. I didn't eat for one week after that, just drank water. I didn't tell anyone, but I would see the rapists faces in my sleep."
However, the story began to leak out.
"The criminals started talking about it in my neighbourhood. They thought my husband would divorce me. They wanted to ruin my reputation. Slowly, my husband started to know what had happened."
But he stood by her, outraged at what the men had done and the fact they were going unpunished.
"Two of the criminals were walking round our neighbourhood, right in front of me," her husband said.
He complained to the police on four occasions before anything was done.
Human rights activists are sure the authorities' reluctance to investigate and their subsequent actions have much to do with the fact that the woman was from Saudi's Shi'ite minority, while the accused are from the majority Sunni Muslims.
When her attackers were finally called to account, the girl had to go to court, where she received a hostile reception.
"At the first session, the judges said to me: 'What kind of relationship did you have with this individual [the man she originally agreed to meet]? Why did you leave the house? Do you know these men?'
"They asked me to describe the situation. They yelled at me. They were insulting. The judge refused to allow my husband in the room with me.
"One judge told me I was a liar because I didn't remember the dates well. They kept saying: 'Why did you leave the house? Why didn't you tell your husband where you were going?'"
The second session, in October last year, proved to be even more shocking.
Four of the attackers - the three others were not found - were given sentences of between one and five years and between 80 and 1,000 lashes.
They were convicted only of kidnapping because the prosecution could not prove rape even though the video images taken on the mobile phone during the attack were presented to the judges.
"I thought these people shouldn't even live," said their victim.
"I thought they would get a minimum of 20 years."
Then the senior judge turned to her and her male companion on the night of the gang rape.
"He said: 'You get 90 lashes. You should thank God you're not in prison.'
"I asked him why and he said: "You know why. Because mingling begets evil.' "
She had been convicted under the khalwa - Sharia law which forbids any woman from being alone in the company of a male to whom she is not related.
"Don't you have any dignity?" her husband demanded of the judges. It was no good. And worse was to follow. The girl grew suicidal. Her own brother blamed her for the attack and his family's "shame".
"He hit me and tried to kill me," she said.
But she was not prepared to accept her unjust punishment.
With the backing of the leading Saudi human rights lawyer, Abdul Rahman al-Laham, she made the facts public, even giving an interview to an Arab TV channel. But far from embarrassing the authorities, this merely seemed to enrage them.
On November 14, the General Court of Qatif struck back, increasing her sentence to 200 lashes and six months in prison.
(Flogging is usually carried out in batches by a prison official who has to hold a copy of the Koran under his whip arm, which prevents it from being raised very high).
The rapists' sentences were also increased to between two and 11 years each.
An official at the court said that her sentence was raised because of "her attempt to aggravate and influence the judiciary through the media".
Judge Sa'd al-Muhanna also banned her lawyer, Abdul Rahman al-Laham, from the courtroom and from representing her in future for allegedly raising his voice in court.
His licence to practise has been suspended and his passport seized.
He faces a further hearing before a Ministry of Justice disciplinary committee in Riyadh next week for appearing regularly on television and talking about the case.
Overnight, though, the Qatif girl's case became a matter of international interest.
How on earth could the Saudi authorities justify such behaviour?
US presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton became involved. But far from retreating, the Saudi authorities dug their heels in.
Official statements posted on the Ministry of Justice website in the past fortnight have alleged that the girl admitted adultery and was already undressed in the car when she was attacked by the rapists.
One statement went so far as to say that it was her own fault: "The main reason the crime took place was because the woman and her companion, who exposed her to this heinous crime, did not follow the law."
The ministry chastised the media for providing an "unjustified defence" of the woman.
A representative of the ministry also appeared on television blaming her for the attack.
He strongly hinted that she had engaged in adultery.
Earlier this week a Saudi newspaper published an interview with Judge Dr Ibrahim bin Salih al-Khudairi of the Riyadh Appeals Court, in which he said that he would have sentenced her to death.
The Appeals Court, and possibly Judge al-Khudairi, will consider the appeal that the Qatif girl said she intends to file.
Impartial? Hardly.
"How is this woman going to get a fair hearing?" asks Farida Deif, of Human Rights Watch.
"The Ministry of Justice has been highly defamatory of her and suggestive that she committed adultery and it was, therefore, her own fault.
"Yes, she broke the law on mingling, but the court should have shown some discretion given that she was brutally gang-raped.
"But this is a country with no written penal law, in which the judges are religious scholars with very little formal legal training."
Thanks to the internet and satellite television however, the Qatif girl's case has caused many Saudis to question the fairness of their own judicial system.
Legal reforms have been announced recently.
But life in the kingdom is still dominated by the religious police who work for the Commission For The Propagation Of Virtue And The Prevention Of Vice to enforce a strict Islamic lifestyle.
They are the untouchables.
Indeed, only on Thursday it was reported that charges against two religious policemen had been dropped. They had been investigated following the death of a man in custody.
The man had been arrested for allegedly drinking alcohol and there was evidence that he had been kicked in the head - but not sufficient to pursue the case, a judge decided.
It echoes a similar case in the summer in which three other members of the religious police had charges dropped after the death of another suspect in custody.
The victim's alleged crime was, like that of the Qatif girl, being alone with an unrelated member of the opposite sex.
The Saudi foreign minister has said that the judicial system will review the Qatif girl's case.
In the meantime, as she awaits her fate, she remains under virtual house arrest, unable to communicate with the outside world; her traumatised family's phones are tapped by the religious police and they are followed when they leave the house.
Meanwhile, the girl is still tormented by thoughts of suicide. But then, in the medieval world of Saudi law she has only herself to blame.
posted
This kaffir's story has so man holes in it (from my point of view) that it is silly for me to even try to comment on it.
She got what she deserved...I hope they give her the death penalty.
I'm surprise her husband stayed with her..we recently found out she was married when she went to met her boyfriend..in the 1st posting she wasn't married..
And get this her husband is still with her after she went to meet her boyfried..
Oh wait..the 7 rapist drove her home and dropped her off..LOL again holes, holes, holes..
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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sands, the woman was MUSLIM, he was not her 'boyfriend'
why dont you try 'reading' the material before you shoot your mouth off with your non-Islamic judgements
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: sands, the woman was MUSLIM, he was not her 'boyfriend'
why dont you try 'reading' the material before you shoot your mouth off with your non-Islamic judgements
I did read ALL of it. I know the story..and she was NOT a Muslim..she is a Shia! They..MOST of them aren't Muslims..
Trust me you have no idea whatsoever what Al-Islaam is. You are the same as her, Kuffar!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: sands, the woman was MUSLIM, he was not her 'boyfriend'
why dont you try 'reading' the material before you shoot your mouth off with your non-Islamic judgements
I did read ALL of it. I know the story..and she was NOT a Muslim..she is a Shia! They..MOST of them aren't Muslims..
Trust me you have no idea whatsoever what Al-Islaam is. You are the same as her, Kuffar!
Surely that is for Allah to decide who is or is not Muslim shisha, not you dear. You are not Allah are you? You are not showing Islam in ANY way shape or form dear, it comes from the Arabic Salam you know, Peace! where is your display of anything like peace?
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: sands, the woman was MUSLIM, he was not her 'boyfriend'
why dont you try 'reading' the material before you shoot your mouth off with your non-Islamic judgements
I did read ALL of it. I know the story..and she was NOT a Muslim..she is a Shia! They..MOST of them aren't Muslims..
Trust me you have no idea whatsoever what Al-Islaam is. You are the same as her, Kuffar!
Surely that is for Allah to decide who is or is not Muslim shisha, not you dear. You are not Allah are you? You are not showing Islam in ANY way shape or form dear, it comes from the Arabic Salam you know, Peace! where is your display of anything like peace?
The Prophet and Allah have detailed exactly what a kaffir is and you have the qualities and belief as one of them. It is crystal clear.
Any no Allah is NOT the only one who can decides who a kaffir is. Undercover is a Christian and that makes her a kaffir! Crystal clear she is that way because Allah has layed down the criteria on what a kaffir is and she and you fit the bill.
So I can confirm that the both of you are kuffar in the dunya and right now today. Again what you will be 5 mins from now only Allah knows that, but suffice it to say you are in kufr and you are a kaffir and that makes you no better than Uncover your seat buddy in that nice warm place where there won't be any blankets required.
Cheers!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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Undercover if you choose Shia verse Islaam you still would be a kaffir! So why don't you accept Shia I mean kufr?..LOL
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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I don't often post on this particular forum, but I have to respond to SIT's abhorrent views. It is obvious from his comments that he is not a Muslem - where is the compassion, the love for others that Muslems profess. From what I've read of his posts, he is a totally ignorant fundamentalist, whose views are formed for him by others. A weak character, who is told what to think, what to say and what to do, with no thoughts of his own. If he was a fully developed person, he would realise how ridiculous his ideas were. Shias and Sunnis are both Muslems - as are Sufis. His narrow minded extremist views are precisely why Islam is so misinterpreted and misunderstood throught the world, and he must not even be considered as a believer, as he has obviously not thought his beliefs through.
Posts: 18 | From: Luxor, Egypt | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Luxorian: I don't often post on this particular forum, but I have to respond to SIT's abhorrent views. It is obvious from his comments that he is not a Muslem - where is the compassion, the love for others that Muslems profess. From what I've read of his posts, he is a totally ignorant fundamentalist, whose views are formed for him by others. A weak character, who is told what to think, what to say and what to do, with no thoughts of his own. If he was a fully developed person, he would realise how ridiculous his ideas were. Shias and Sunnis are both Muslems - as are Sufis. His narrow minded extremist views are precisely why Islam is so misinterpreted and misunderstood throught the world, and he must not even be considered as a believer, as he has obviously not thought his beliefs through.
You started off your post by saying that you don't often post on this forum. Here is a nice piece of advise to you. You shouldn't. You should follow your advice as previously stated.
You wouldn't know Islaam if it slapped you in the face. Only Kuffar call Shia Muslims.
Where is your proof that Shia's are Muslims? Bring it so that I can eat you alive and discredit you! Please, I'm begging you.
Standby to get embarrassed!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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Thank you Luxorian. You put what was in my mind better than I could.
Sands you didnt answer my question.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Luxorian: I don't often post on this particular forum, but I have to respond to SIT's abhorrent views. It is obvious from his comments that he is not a Muslem - where is the compassion, the love for others that Muslems profess. From what I've read of his posts, he is a totally ignorant fundamentalist, whose views are formed for him by others. A weak character, who is told what to think, what to say and what to do, with no thoughts of his own. If he was a fully developed person, he would realise how ridiculous his ideas were. Shias and Sunnis are both Muslems - as are Sufis. His narrow minded extremist views are precisely why Islam is so misinterpreted and misunderstood throught the world, and he must not even be considered as a believer, as he has obviously not thought his beliefs through.
You mean "she"...sheeesha.
Posts: 407 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2007
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Luxorian, your welcome to post as often as you like.
Unfortunately we have a stupid person (putting it kindly) on here who is in the minority. He just doesn't know he is stupid. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Yeah Luxorian you're welcome to post that stuff I challenge you about..like I said bring it on..
Where is your proof that Shia's are Muslims?
Don' let of-Gold and Ayisha get you into trouble..or write a check that your butt can't cash!
We are waiting!
my my you are a nasty obnoxious foul mouthed example of a 'muslim' shisha. Where IS your compasion? where is your 'kind speech' you are supposed to give as a Muslim? Where is your display of Islams beauty? you just dont see it do you?
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Yeah Luxorian you're welcome to post that stuff I challenge you about..like I said bring it on..
Where is your proof that Shia's are Muslims?
Don' let of-Gold and Ayisha get you into trouble..or write a check that your butt can't cash!
We are waiting!
Oh to see your 'proof' they are not
Naw like Musa (may Allah be pleased with him) did with the magicians of Firawn..I will let her throw first!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Yeah Luxorian you're welcome to post that stuff I challenge you about..like I said bring it on..
Where is your proof that Shia's are Muslims?
Don' let of-Gold and Ayisha get you into trouble..or write a check that your butt can't cash!
We are waiting!
Oh to see your 'proof' they are not
Naw like Musa (may Allah be pleased with him) did with the magicians of Firawn..I will let her throw first!
of course you will, because you can't prove they are not can you?
I asked my husband last night if he would ever say that someone is not a Muslim, if he would ever take that right to judge someone from Allah. His eyes went wide and all he said was 'HARAM' Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Yeah Luxorian you're welcome to post that stuff I challenge you about..like I said bring it on..
Where is your proof that Shia's are Muslims?
Don' let of-Gold and Ayisha get you into trouble..or write a check that your butt can't cash!
We are waiting!
Oh to see your 'proof' they are not
Naw like Musa (may Allah be pleased with him) did with the magicians of Firawn..I will let her throw first!
of course you will, because you can't prove they are not can you?
I asked my husband last night if he would ever say that someone is not a Muslim, if he would ever take that right to judge someone from Allah. His eyes went wide and all he said was 'HARAM'
Tell him to go learn his deen (if he is a Muslim) and you should go and learn about Islaam to and take your shahaadah. You are not a Muslim. I repeat. You are not a Muslim and tell your husband that.
If he believes like you he isn't one also. It may be a case of the blind leading the blind.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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Naw like Musa (may Allah be pleased with him) did with the magicians of Firawn..I will let her throw first! [/qb]of course you will, because you can't prove they are not can you?
I see you and the cocky magicians of Firawn (may the curse of Allah be upon him) think the same and we know that Musa may Allah be pleased with him) proved them wrong..in fact those magicians became Muslims after they saw what Musa (may Allah be pleased with him) did to them.
Like I said I'm letting her throw first! She said they were i.e. the Shia were Muslims, ..NOW prove it!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Kuffar!
So I can confirm that the both of you are kuffar in the dunya and right now today. Again what you will be 5 mins from now only Allah knows that, but suffice it to say you are in kufr and you are a kaffir and that makes you no better than Uncover your seat buddy in that nice warm place where there won't be any blankets required.
Cheers!
Standby to get embarrassed!
you're welcome to post that stuff I challenge you about..like I said bring it on..
Where is your proof that Shia's are Muslims?
Don' let of-Gold and Ayisha get you into trouble..or write a check that your butt can't cash!
We are waiting!
Tell him to go learn his deen (if he is a Muslim) and you should go and learn about Islaam to and take your shahaadah. You are not a Muslim. I repeat. You are not a Muslim and tell your husband that.
If he believes like you he isn't one also. It may be a case of the blind leading the blind.
41:34 Not equal is the good response and the bad response. You shall resort to the nicest possible response. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend.
4:94 O ye who believe! When ye go abroad in the cause of Allah, investigate carefully, and say not to any one who offers you a salutation: "Thou art not a believer!"...
25:63 And the servants of the Almighty who walk on the Earth in humility and if the ignorant speak to them, they Say: "Peace."
28:55 And if they come across vain talk, they disregard it and Say: "To us are our deeds, and to you is your deeds. Peace be upon you. We do not seek the ignorant."
31:18 You shall not treat the people with arrogance, nor shall you roam the earth carefree. God does not like the arrogant showoffs.
13:22 And those who are patient seeking their Lord's direction; and they honour the oath of allegiance, and they spend from what We bestowed upon them secretly and openly, and they counter sin with good; these will have an excellent abode.
6:108 And do not curse those who call on other than GOD, lest they blaspheme and curse God, out of ignorance. We have adorned the works of every group in their eyes. Ultimately, they return to their Lord, then He informs them of everything they had done.
49:11 O you who believe, no people shall ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. Anyone who does not repent after this, these are the transgressors.
43:88-89 And it will be said: "O my Lord, these are a people who do not believe." So disregard them and Say: "Peace." For they will come to know.
16:125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones.Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
shisha, do you understand those verses? They are from a book called Quran, the book we muslims follow, you should try reading that sometime and actually take some of it in instead of studying the hadith first because you think you cant understand Quran without that.
It is HARAM to call another muslim, or ANYONE for that matter, a kafir. Do you understand that? IT IS FROM ALLAH.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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posted
I dont think it would be classed as that of_gold, but it is haram. Only Allah knows who is or is not muslim, no one else knows whats in the hearts of anyone, only Allah. So this person, although it spouts all the 'right' Arabic words, is not following Quran that was sent by Allah. This person is taking it upon themselves to decide who is or not a Muslim based on what they think themselves.
What it said to dalia is a prime example. Although Dalia has not taken shahadah, as far as I know, that does not mean that in the eyes of Allah she is not Muslim,. Allah is the only one who can see into her heart and soul.Being a Muslim is not only about taking the shahadah, reciting all the sura, it is about whats inside a person. Allah's message is clear, the verses Dalia quoted are clear, this person is not following them as this person is more concerned with adding words to Allah's to justify its hatred. Sadly this is what too many Muslims seem to do nowdays, they would rather turn people away from Islam as they themselves dont see any beauty in it.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: I dont think it would be classed as that of_gold, but it is haram. Only Allah knows who is or is not muslim, no one else knows whats in the hearts of anyone, only Allah. So this person, although it spouts all the 'right' Arabic words, is not following Quran that was sent by Allah. This person is taking it upon themselves to decide who is or not a Muslim based on what they think themselves.
What it said to dalia is a prime example. Although Dalia has not taken shahadah, as far as I know, that does not mean that in the eyes of Allah she is not Muslim,. Allah is the only one who can see into her heart and soul.Being a Muslim is not only about taking the shahadah, reciting all the sura, it is about whats inside a person. Allah's message is clear, the verses Dalia quoted are clear, this person is not following them as this person is more concerned with adding words to Allah's to justify its hatred. Sadly this is what too many Muslims seem to do nowdays, they would rather turn people away from Islam as they themselves dont see any beauty in it.
Once again I don't know what is your source of Al-Islaam. Let me try to help you, Of_Gold, Dalia and your husband out.
In order to be a Muslim (Listen I said MUSLIM) you must declare your shahaadah which is: La Ilaha Illah Muhammadur Rasulullah. There in no disagreement on that whatsoever. ANYONE who does NOT say the Kalimatus Shahaadah is NOT a Muslim.
Islaam is not about what is inside he heart. Shaykul Islaam ibn Tayimah (RA) said: "What is inside the heart is demonstrated on the outside!" Your statement about what is inside the heart sounds good but it is not the bases or foundation of Al-Islaam.
So Ayisha there is NO WAY Allah's green earth can Dalia be considered a Muslimah..Period. Allah and those who have SOUND knowledge of the religion of understand this.
The key to paradise is La Ilaha Illah Muhammadur Rasulullah. Dalia may have many keys but she doesn't as far as I know have that key which will unlock the door to paradise. She has been asked this question by me on MANY ocassions to declare her shahaadah and she has openly dodge the question. That makes her a open kaffir i.e. disbeliever in Al-Islaam.
As for you! You are ABSOLUTELY wrong when saying that someone can not call another person a Kaffir. Here is the proof (I am going to take you to school here) I'll try to make it concise as not to loose or confuse you insha Allah Ta'ala:
In suratul Baqarah Allah classifies people into 3 groups:
1. Muslimeen (Those who believe in Allah and the Message that the Last Prophet Muhammad ibn Abdullah salallahu alayhi wassalaam) 2. Kafffireen (Those who reject Allah and His Last Prophet Muhammad ibn Abdullah salallahu alayhi wassalaam) 3. Munafiqeen (Those who are Muslim but are Hypocrites)
There are different levels of the 3 groups however the bases of the groups are listed about.
So Ayisha:
Q. If a person comes to me and says that I accept Jesus Christ (may Allah be pleased with him) as My God (ilaha) and my Savior and I do not believe that Muhammad (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), according to Al-Islaam which group does he/she fall into?
A. He/she falls into kufr. He/she is a kaffir because he/she rejects the Prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalam and he/she commits shirk and kufr by believing that Allah is Jesus or that Allah beget a son.
So based on that, as a Muslim who understands the tenants of my faith I am able to clearly state, because Allah has clearly stated what are the criteria for Muslims, Kaffirs and Munafiqs are. I am then able the say that that person is NOT a Muslim and is NOT a Munafiq so therefore he/she is a Kaffir and can be labelled as a Kaffir.
It is not always what is inside someone's heart that determines there classification (you said only Allah knows what is inside someone's heart). If their actions, beliefs and statements are clear then we are to take them for what they SAY and ACT upon.
So when I call you a kaffir is because of criteria that has been laid down by the Prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalaam and Allah in the Quran. You reject the authentic hadeeth of the Prophet Muhammad (salallahu alayhi wassalaam), his acts and statements wherein Allah tells you:
"He does not speak from his desires; indeed what he says is REVELATION" Sura An Najm 53: 3-4
"And I (Allah) revealed to you (Muhammd)the Reminder (Quran) in order that YOU explain to the people what was revealed to them." sura An Nahl 16:44
If you only accept the Quran (as you have mentioned) and reject the authentic Ahadeeth of the last, blessed, and beloved Prophet (may the peace and blessing Allah the Most High be upon him) then you O Ayisha are going against the ORDERS of Allah and the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad and that make you a kaffir because he brought more than just the Quran and Allah told us that he was sent to explain the Quran to us..and Allah did not intend for us to figure out the meaning of the Quran on our own and the Verse in Surah An Nahl says that! He told the Prophet to "EXPLAIN" the Quran to the people.
Allah says (translated):
O Believers obey Allah, obey the Messenger [b/]AND[/b]THOSE in authority among you. If you dispute about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger." Surah An Nisa 4:59
So obey Allah and OBEY the Messenger!
Q.Where are the words of the Messenger contained?
A. Ahhhh the answer "In the Authentic Ahadeeth of the Prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalaam.
Allah Says (translated):
"Surely there is for ALL of you a good example (of conduct) in the way of Allah's Messenger." Surah Al Ahzaab 33:21 Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!
I hope that has cleared it up for you and of_Gold why I can call you both kaffireen.. Allah says (translated): Is the one who knows (understands) and the one who does not know (understand) equal?..NO!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Islaam is not about what is inside he heart. Shaykul Islaam ibn Tayimah (RA) said: "What is inside the heart is demonstrated on the outside!"
Do you really think we care what Ibn Taymiya says?
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: IShe has been asked this question by me on MANY ocassions to declare her shahaadah
Really? I must have missed that. Di haga bani ana wa rabbina, ya sandhead! It's none of your business what I declare openly or not. So stop harassing me. Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
So you think God hates Christians. And, many Christians think that God hates Muslims.
What a sad life you two groups must live, to serve the God of hate.
I myself serve the God of LOVE. "Love your enemy's", "Love those that say all manner of evil against you", "Love those who persecute you"... Love is the fulfilling of the law.
I fall short of this ideal, I find it very difficult to love you but at least now I know how much you hate me. Your hate has nothing to do with who I am or whether I am a good or bad person. It is just pure hate.
"Blessed are the Peace makers, for they shall be called the Children of God."
Peace be upon you sands.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Islaam is not about what is inside he heart. Shaykul Islaam ibn Tayimah (RA) said: "What is inside the heart is demonstrated on the outside!"
Do you really think we care what Ibn Taymiya says?
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: IShe has been asked this question by me on MANY ocassions to declare her shahaadah
Really? I must have missed that. Di haga bani ana wa rabbina, ya sandhead! It's none of your business what I declare openly or not. So stop harassing me.
I'm not harassing you! I'm just making plain clear your position.
wa na'am hatha bayna wa bayanhu (Rabbina).
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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