It is We who created you and gave you shape. Then We bade the angels, "Bow down to Adam," and they bowed down. Not so Iblis. He refused to be of those who bowed down.
And God said, "What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee?' He said, "I am better than he. Thou didst create me of fire and him from clay."
And God said, "Get thee down from here. It is not for thee to be arrogant here. Get out, for thou art the meanest of creatures."' (7:11-13)
The word or the name for pride in Arabic is 'kibr'. This is the inner quality of pride. The name of the outward quality is 'takabbur' which means arrogance. It is the worst attribute of a human being, and owing to this sin, Shaytan, Iblis as he was known, was expelled from Paradise.
There is a hadith or saying of the Prophet, salla'llahu 'alayhi wa sallim, with regard to pride. Ibn Mas'ud reported that the Messenger of Allah, salla'llahu 'alayhi wa sallim, said, 'No one who has got faith in his heart to the weight of a mustard-seed shall enter the Fire and nobody who has got pride in his heart to the weight of a mustard-seed shall enter Paradise.'
There are essentially two kinds of pride.
The first is pride before Allah. The second is pride with other people. Pride with other people also could be divided into two - that is, pride against the superiority of the Prophets of God and pride in relation to other people.
The ugliest form of pride is pride before Allah, before God, as we see in the example of Shaytan. This is why prayer, and particularly sujud, which means prostration, putting one's head on the ground or bowing, separates the obedient from the disobedient. To be too proud to bow before Allah or to bow to His will is the greatest height of arrogance and ingratitude. People who do not bow when God commands them are in a way denying the very existence of Allah and the inevitable Day of Judgement. They deny the clear and obvious signs of God's majesty and power and they refuse to follow the straight path of the righteous.
We will read two verses from Surat Al-A'raf (7:146-147)
Those who behave arrogantly on the earth in defiance of right, them will I turn away from My signs. Even if they see all the signs, they will not believe in them. And if they see the way of right conduct, they will not adopt it as the way. But if they see the way of error, that is the way they will adopt. For they have rejected Our signs and failed to take warning from them.
Those who reject Our signs and the meeting in the Hereafter, vain are their deeds. Can they expect to be rewarded except as they have worked?
Abu Hurayra reported that the Messenger of Allah, salla'llahu 'alayhi wa sallim, said that the Almighty, Allah, had revealed, 'Pride is My cloth and Greatness is My robe. So whoso vies with Me regarding either of these two, I shall admit him into the Fire.'
The second kind of pride is to refuse to follow and obey God's Messengers or to deny their superiority and the superiority of any of the Prophets of God, peace be upon them. This is the second worse kind as the Prophets were the chosen ones of Allah Almighty, sent for the guidance of mankind. Are they not better than those who are not chosen? No one should think that the Prophets were short of intelligence or wisdom and they cannot be compared with modern scientists or politicians. They were chosen and sent with the truth and the criterion of right and wrong. Whoever rejects the truth of the revelation which they brought becomes a rebel in the sight of Allah and becomes full of pride.
Another verse from the same chapter, verses 35-40, O ye Children of Adam! Whenever there came to you apostles from amongst you rehearsing My signs unto you, those who are righteous and mend their lives, on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve.
But those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance, they are the Companions of the Fire, to dwell therein forever.
Who is more unjust than the one who invents a lie against God or rejects His signs? For such, their portion appointed must reach them from the Book of Decrees until when Our messengers of death arrive to take their souls, they said, "Where are the things that ye used to invoke besides Allah?" They will reply, "They have left us in the lurch," and they will bear witness against themselves that they had rejected God.
He will say, "Enter ye among the peoples who passed away before you, men and jinns, into the Fire." Every time a new people enters, it curses its sister people that went before until they follow each other, all into the Fire. Sayeth the last about the first, "Our Lord, it is these that misled us, so give them double penalty in the Fire." He will say, "Doubled for all, but this you do not understand."
Then the first will say to the last, 'See then! No advantage hast thou over us, so taste ye of the penalty for all that ye did."
'To those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance, no opening will there be of the gates of heaven nor will they enter the Garden until the camel can pass through the eye of a needle. Such is Our reward for those in sin.
Ibn Mas'ud reported that the Messenger of Allah, salla'llahu 'alayhi wa sallim, said, 'Whoso has got pride in his heart to the weight of an atom shall not enter Paradise.' Then a man asked the Prophet, salla'llahu 'alayhi wa sallim, about dressing well. He said that he liked to be well-dressed and his dress should be fine and his shoes shall be fine, and he said, 'Allah is beautiful and likes beauty. Pride is denying truth and despising people.'
So the Prophet, salla'llahu 'alayhi wa sallim, indicated that there is nothing wrong with looking nice, neat, clean and tidy, but he said that pride is in fact denouncing or denying the truth and despising or looking down at people.
The other aspect of pride with people is to believe oneself to be better than others whereas the only basis upon which some are more honoured than others is in piety or righteousness.
So essentially there are two cures for pride.
I'm going to read something from the Kitab Usulu'd-Din by 'Uthman dan Fodio which gives some cures for pride.
"The two cures are: first, knowledge. The second, action.
"First, the knowledge cure is to know and recognise your Lord and to know and recognise your own self as you should be recognised and that it is not worthy of greatness and that true greatness and pride are only for Allah; and, as for self-recognition, we read in the Qur'an:
"Allah ta'ala said, 'Perish man! How thankless he is! Of what did He create him? Of a sperm-drop. He created him, and determined him, and then made the way easy for him. Then He makes him die, buries him, and then, when He wills, raises him.'
"This ayat points to the beginning of man's creation, his end, and his middle. Let us understand its meaning.
"As for the beginning of man, he was 'a thing unremembered.' He was concealed in non-existence. Non-existence has no beginning. What is lower and meaner than obliteration and non-existence? He was in non-existence. Then Allah created him from the basest of things, and then from the most unclean thing. He created him from earth and then from a sperm-drop, then a blood-clot. Then He made the bones, and then clothed the bones in flesh. This was the beginning of his existence.
"When you begin in this manner, how can you have arrogance, pride, glory and conceit? In fact, man is the weakest of the weak. During your existence, Allah Almighty has given illnesses power over you, whether you like or not, and whether you are content or enraged. You become hungry and thirsty without being able to to do anything about it. You do not possess any power to bring yourself either harm or benefit.
"You want to know something but you remain ignorant of it. You want to remember something and yet you forget it. You want to forget something and yet you cannot forget it. You want to direct your heart to what concerns it and yet and you are caught up in the valleys of whisperings and thoughts. You own neither your heart nor your self. You desire something while your destruction may be in it, and you detest something while your life may be in it. You find some foods delicious when they destroy and kill you, and you find remedies repugnant when they help you and save you.
"If you truly know yourself, how can you think yourself worthy of pride?...Your end is death. It is indicated by His word, "Then He makes him die and buries him. Then, when He wills, He raises Him." The meaning here is that your ruh, hearing, sight, knowledge, power, senses, perception, and movement are all stripped away. You revert to the inanimate as you were in the first place. Only the shape of your limbs remains. Your form has neither senses nor movement. Then you are placed in the earth and your limbs decay. You become absent after you existed. You become as if you were not. As you were at first for a long period of time.
"How then can he be arrogant? How can he see himself as anything to which excellence is attached? This is the knowledge-cure."
Then as far as the action-cure is concerned, it says, "it is to humble yourself to people in a constrained unnnatural manner until it becomes natural for you."
Al-hamdu lillah. May Allah guide us to this knowledge and to this action.
This talk was first given by Yusuf Islam on January 1988 as part of the Islamic Circle Talks presented every Saturday at London's Regent's Park Mosque. Visit Mountain of Light.
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quote:Originally posted by Tahira: Pride By Yusuf Islam
It is We who created you and gave you shape. Then We bade the angels, "Bow down to Adam," and they bowed down. Not so Iblis. He refused to be of those who bowed down.
And God said, "What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee?' He said, "I am better than he. Thou didst create me of fire and him from clay."
And God said, "Get thee down from here. It is not for thee to be arrogant here. Get out, for thou art the meanest of creatures."' (7:11-13)
God asked the ANGELS "bow down to Adam" as Iblis not from Angels and was created from fire,so he didn't bow down,who was wrong God or Iblis?
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Tahira: Pride By Yusuf Islam
It is We who created you and gave you shape. Then We bade the angels, "Bow down to Adam," and they bowed down. Not so Iblis. He refused to be of those who bowed down.
And God said, "What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee?' He said, "I am better than he. Thou didst create me of fire and him from clay."
And God said, "Get thee down from here. It is not for thee to be arrogant here. Get out, for thou art the meanest of creatures."' (7:11-13)
God asked the ANGELS "bow down to Adam" as Iblis not from Angels and was created from fire,so he didn't bow down,who was wrong God or Iblis?
Iblis. You were created by God but cannot blame God for things you do wrongs.
I hope you have a nice day. Posts: 70 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Tahira: Iblis. You were created by God but cannot blame God for things you do wrongs.
I hope you have a nice day.
And you suppose to be God who is talking now,what this nonsense funny reply,I am talking from the logic point view and you talk from programmed point view,let your mind works little bit on 2008.
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean exactly. I hope you have a nice day anyway and stay safe. Posts: 70 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Tahira: I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean exactly. I hope you have a nice day anyway and stay safe.
I mean why Iblis had to bow down to Adam if God asked the angels to do that while Iblis is not from angels.
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I do not know the answer to that dear Freshsoda. Some things there are no answers to because (possibly) God did not think it was important or useful information. I could be wrong and perhaps someone else knows the answer to your excellent question. Take care.
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If Iblis was not an angel then these verses are not right. God is saying He asked the angels to prostrate to Adam and Iblis refused, therefore Iblis was among the angels
015.028 YUSUFALI: Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud moulded into shape; 015.029 YUSUFALI: "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him." 015.030 YUSUFALI: So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together: 015.031 YUSUFALI: Not so Iblis: he refused to be among those who prostrated themselves.
Iblis was an angel, perfect in every way:
Ezekiel 28:12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
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Imam Ibn Kathir (RA) states clearly about this verse in questioned. When Allah commanded the angels to prostrate before Adam, Iblis was included in this command. Although Iblis was not an angel, he was trying and pretending - to imitate the angels behavior and deeds, and this is why he was also included in the command to the angels to prostrate to Adam.
Ayisha wrote:
quote:Iblis was an angel, perfect in every way:
Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! Here is the proof of defect of your understanding of Al Quran Al Kareem. Listen very carefully to what Allah says (translated):
"Except Iblis. He was one of the Jinn; he disobyed the command of his Lord." 18:50
The Quran will guide some people and the same Quran will misguide some people.
Oh btw the free-thinking mind will misguide one also. Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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I agree with that about free thinking. While we must strive to question and educate ourselves, i think often asking too much is a way used to misguide us. I dont know what the perfect solution is. Also Iblis was NOT an angel.
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Imam Ibn Kathir (RA) states clearly about this verse in questioned. When Allah commanded the angels to prostrate before Adam, Iblis was included in this command. Although Iblis was not an angel, he was trying and pretending - to imitate the angels behavior and deeds, and this is why he was also included in the command to the angels to prostrate to Adam.
How DARE you! He was 'pretending'?? oh and Allah didnt see through this? You limit Allah.
quote:
quote:Iblis was an angel, perfect in every way:
Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! Here is the proof of defect of your understanding of Al Quran Al Kareem. Listen very carefully to what Allah says (translated):
"Except Iblis. He was one of the Jinn; he disobyed the command of his Lord." 18:50
Yes he was AFTER he had been cast out by God. He was 'demoted'. At the time of the first verse where Allah asks the angels to prostrate he was an angel, thats why Allah says they all did except Iblis, and thats when he was chucked out!
quote:The Quran will guide some people and the same Quran will misguide some people.
I fully agree! You have to use Kathir to tell you this sands, Allah had made it quite clear in Quran.
quote:Oh btw the free-thinking mind will misguide one also.
Why did Allah give us freedom of thought sands? Why did he constantly say for those who 'reflect'?
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I think what Mr. Sands means Ayisha (beautiful name also!) is that there is a point in the lessons in the Quran where even the Children of Israel questioned everything everything everything, when no answer was enough. Which is good to ask questions and want to know but you should have a limit. I hope that is what he means - sorry if I am wrong. Have a nice day. Posts: 70 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Yes he was AFTER he had been cast out by God. He was 'demoted'.
Where is your Quranic proof of this?..Iblish was demoted..LOL
Here is what Allah said:
quote:"Except Iblis. He was one of the Jinn; he disobyed the command of his Lord." 18:50
Here is the entire ayat translate: "And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves unto Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis. He was one of the jinn; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord. Will you then take him and his offspring as protectors and helpers rather than Me while they are enemines to you? What an evil is the exchange for the Zalimun." Suratul 18:50
BTW Angels don't procreate! Jinns and Men do!
Gottcha dear Ayisha..
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quote:Originally posted by Tahira: I agree with that about free thinking. While we must strive to question and educate ourselves, i think often asking too much is a way used to misguide us. I dont know what the perfect solution is. Also Iblis was NOT an angel.
I disagree tahira. How can we strive to question and educate ourselves without asking questions? Allah tells you in Quran to verify what you are told, not to just take it. He tells you to think. How can you do any of this without free thinking. If you dont have free thought you are not human, its the thing that separates us from animals.
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Iblis may used to be an angel or may not be an angel, but we come to know from Surah Al Kahf chapter 18 verse 50 that Iblis was a Jinn. No where does the Quran say Iblis was an angel.
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quote:Originally posted by M*A*S*R*I: Iblis may used to be an angel or may not be an angel, but we come to know from Surah Al Kahf chapter 18 verse 50 that Iblis was a Jinn. No where does the Quran say Iblis was an angel.
Thank you MASRI! Exactly and even Allah confirms that Iblis was a Jinn:
Here is the entire ayat translate: "And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves unto Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis. He was one of the jinn; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord. Will you then take him and his offspring as protectors and helpers rather than Me while they are enemines to you? What an evil is the exchange for the Zalimun." Suratul 18:50
BTW Angels don't procreate! Jinns and Men do!
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:Allah tells you in Quran to verify what you are told, not to just take it. He tells you to think.
No Allah says (translated):
O You who believe! If a fasiq (a liar/evil person) comes to you with news verify it, lest you should harm people in ignorance, and aftewards you become regretful fo rwhat you have done. Suratul Hujurat verse 6
Get it right O Ayisha enlighten one. If you're gonna quote Quran quote it right!
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By the way in arabic there is the rule of Tagleeb, meaning when talking and address the majority, the minority also are included. and no need to separate them.
quote:And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves unto Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis
quote:Originally posted by Tahira: I agree with that about free thinking. While we must strive to question and educate ourselves, i think often asking too much is a way used to misguide us. I dont know what the perfect solution is. Also Iblis was NOT an angel.
I disagree tahira. How can we strive to question and educate ourselves without asking questions? Allah tells you in Quran to verify what you are told, not to just take it. He tells you to think. How can you do any of this without free thinking. If you dont have free thought you are not human, its the thing that separates us from animals.
You are confused I think. I did not say to not ask questions, that is human nature. The point is being satisified. At what point do you say ALRIGHT YES THAT IS SATISIFYING MY QUESTION ? I do not mean you are doing this but rather i am saying it for the sake of this discussion. I think more people should question things because there are many in Egypt who do things that are tradition and not part of Islam and they don't ever question these things. But you can exaggerate in anything, I think.
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quote:Originally posted by M*A*S*R*I: By the way in arabic there is the rule of Tagleeb, meaning when talking and address the majority, the minority also are included. and no need to separate them.
quote:And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves unto Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis
Ayisha doesn't read or speak Arabic..so she comes up short in that category MASRI..she has to rely on translations and free-thinking.
Ayisha also makes a lot of references from the Bible and that's why we are subject to a lot cross contamination awhen she tries to present her form of Islaam to us.
One has to be very careful what you read from her or you will be knocking on the doors of kufr walking a talking about Iblis is a fallen angel and got demoted to a Jinn for not prostrating..LOL what will these Quraniyoon and free-thinkers come up with next?
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Free thinking is required and Allah asked us to think. but when it comes to Ghibyat ( unknown/unseen) we take the word of Allah and his messenger and his followers for it.
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015.032 YUSUFALI: (Allah) said: "O Iblis! what is your reason for not being among those who prostrated themselves?"
15:32 throws out what Kathir says that Iblis was 'pretending' as Allah asks him why he wont prostrate. Unless you think Allah is stupid and didnt 'know'.
015.033 YUSUFALI: (Iblis) said: "I am not one to prostrate myself to man, whom Thou didst create from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape."
Iblis gives his reasons
015.034 YUSUFALI: (Allah) said: "Then get thee out from here; for thou art rejected, accursed.
Here is where he gets chucked out, demoted.
sands if jinn can procreate and angels cant, then you are saying Iblis himself can procreate.
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It is nice to finally have some reason around here. Thanks to SITS, M*A*S*R*I and Tahira. May Allah keep you all in the best of health and may your iman remain strong, ameen. Posts: 1283 | From: Cairo | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by M*A*S*R*I: Free thinking is required and Allah asked us to think. but when it comes to Ghibyat ( unknown/unseen) we take the word of Allah and his messenger and his followers for it.
When I say Free-Thinkers Ayisha and Dalia know what I am talking about.. It has a special reference to their sect of so called Islaam. Yes we are think but in the manner in which Allah prescribe for us.
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quote:Originally posted by LovedOne: It is nice to finally have some reason around here. Thanks to SITS, M*A*S*R*I and Tahira. May Allah keep you all in the best of health and may your iman remain strong, ameen.
Jazaakum Allah Khairan Ya Lovedone..wa Barakallahu feeki and the same for you and your family..Ameen.
May Allah make me better than what you think of me
Salaams to ALL of my brothers and sisters as well.
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quote:Originally posted by Tahira: The point is being satisified. At what point do you say ALRIGHT YES THAT IS SATISIFYING MY QUESTION ?
At the point when my question IS satisfied with an answer I cant pull any holes in, because then I will have the truth
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I guess that makes sense then Ayisha. But as it was said above, there are some things Allah did not tell us and we must assume it was simply because it was not considered important. I hope you do not feel ganged up on, it seems like that is happening please do not take offense. I am just trying to help you. I hope you have a nice night. Posts: 70 | Registered: Jan 2008
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ok so lots of back patting and prostrating to each other is wonderful, but can anyone actually answer me?
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: ok so lots of back patting and prostrating to each other is wonderful, but can anyone actually answer me?
We already did. However, as usual you just don't get it. Take a moment to re-read the post and then, ask Allah Azza wa Jal to open up your heart and mind to accept what said to you from the brothers and sisters.
In Allah is the tawfiq.
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quote:Originally posted by Tahira: I guess that makes sense then Ayisha. But as it was said above, there are some things Allah did not tell us and we must assume it was simply because it was not considered important. I hope you do not feel ganged up on, it seems like that is happening please do not take offense. I am just trying to help you. I hope you have a nice night.
You see tahira, Allah DID tell us those things as I have just showed you, the fact that some people do not look and use their own brains and have to see what a scholar thought is the problem. Its not that we were not told, we were.
Yes I feel ganged up on but dont you worry about it, its something I have become used to. i know you are trying to help and you will get PM's warning you off so dont worry about it. Im not part of the 'group' Alhamdulillah!! Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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I do not gossip Ayisha do not worry about me staying in any group except one like me.
You must follow with your own heart what you think is right. Sometimes we all will not see eye to eye and what satisifes your own heart might not satisify this next person. But if the intention is pure and you do it for the right reason then both must get the benefit. That is how I see it. So, keep questioning, maybe we can all learn from your questions and help each other. Inshallah. Have a nice day sister.
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quote:Imam Ibn Kathir (RA) states clearly about this verse in questioned. When Allah commanded the angels to prostrate before Adam, Iblis was included in this command. Although Iblis was not an angel, he was trying and pretending - to imitate the angels behavior and deeds, and this is why he was also included in the command to the angels to prostrate to Adam.
Ayisha wrote:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Iblis was an angel, perfect in every way: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! Here is the proof of defect of your understanding of Al Quran Al Kareem. Listen very carefully to what Allah says (translated):
"Except Iblis. He was one of the Jinn; he disobyed the command of his Lord." 18:50
Then we had tahira saying iblis was not an angel, no proof though.
Then we had my post
quote:Yes he was AFTER he had been cast out by God. He was 'demoted'. At the time of the first verse where Allah asks the angels to prostrate he was an angel, thats why Allah says they all did except Iblis, and thats when he was chucked out!
I fully agree! You have to use Kathir to tell you this sands, Allah had made it quite clear in Quran.
Why did Allah give us freedom of thought sands? Why did he constantly say for those who 'reflect'?
Here you see im asking questions. These have not yet been answered. I also explained from Quran about Iblis which put your kathir wrong, you cannot explain this either.
Then we had your post
quote:Where is your Quranic proof of this?..Iblish was demoted..LOL
Here is what Allah said:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Except Iblis. He was one of the Jinn; he disobyed the command of his Lord." 18:50 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is the entire ayat translate: "And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves unto Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis. He was one of the jinn; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord. Will you then take him and his offspring as protectors and helpers rather than Me while they are enemines to you? What an evil is the exchange for the Zalimun." Suratul 18:50
BTW Angels don't procreate! Jinns and Men do!
Gottcha dear Ayisha..
Then we have masri
quote:Iblis may used to be an angel or may not be an angel, but we come to know from Surah Al Kahf chapter 18 verse 50 that Iblis was a Jinn. No where does the Quran say Iblis was an angel.
Now I will reply to this as it also does not answer my question to my satisfaction, because Quran DOES tell you he was an angel in 15:28-34 or there would have been no need of those verses. So again Quran refutes what you say.
Then we have sands applauding masri
quote:Thank you MASRI! Exactly and even Allah confirms that Iblis was a Jinn:
Here is the entire ayat translate: "And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves unto Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis. He was one of the jinn; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord. Will you then take him and his offspring as protectors and helpers rather than Me while they are enemines to you? What an evil is the exchange for the Zalimun." Suratul 18:50
BTW Angels don't procreate! Jinns and Men do!
I wont go on but no you have not yet answered my questions to my satisfaction. You are not showing me any proof because the verse you are quoting me is the same verse I am saying says he was an angel until he didnt prostrate to Adam.
15:28-34 show it clear as clear to me. Angels were asked to prostrate to Adam and Iblis refused. Now thats like me saying all you ladies stand up and sands refused. sands is a man so it doesnt apply to him. You expect me to believe that Allah said this and Iblis was a jinn? Iblis was an angel and I have shown proof which you cannot refute. The part where it calls Iblis a jinn is because he was cast out in 15:34 for disobeying Allah.
I have also questioned your jinn procreate angels dont and would like an answer to that please
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quote:Originally posted by Tahira: I do not gossip Ayisha do not worry about me staying in any group except one like me.
You must follow with your own heart what you think is right. Sometimes we all will not see eye to eye and what satisifes your own heart might not satisify this next person. But if the intention is pure and you do it for the right reason then both must get the benefit. That is how I see it. So, keep questioning, maybe we can all learn from your questions and help each other. Inshallah. Have a nice day sister.
Alhamdulillah I think we may have a real Muslim in da house!!! Thank you Tahira, thank you very much.
quote:Originally posted by M*A*S*R*I: By the way in arabic there is the rule of Tagleeb, meaning when talking and address the majority, the minority also are included. and no need to separate them.
quote:And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves unto Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis
There may well be, but I believe Allah was quite specific when he said this or based on your rule this would have addressed the entire creation. He said angels, He meant angels.
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quote:Originally posted by Tahira: I do not gossip Ayisha do not worry about me staying in any group except one like me.
You must follow with your own heart what you think is right. Sometimes we all will not see eye to eye and what satisifes your own heart might not satisify this next person. But if the intention is pure and you do it for the right reason then both must get the benefit. That is how I see it. So, keep questioning, maybe we can all learn from your questions and help each other. Inshallah. Have a nice day sister.
Alhamdulillah I think we may have a real Muslim in da house!!! Thank you Tahira, thank you very much.
You are welcome Ayisha. And if you are a convert to Islam I want to tell you that I love you so much for that. I thin k you must have a beautiful heart. Posts: 70 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by M*A*S*R*I: There was no entire creation yet, Adam was still alone there with angles and Iblis
and it is not my rule but a rule in the arabic language
No creation yet?? what do you call creation? were there no planets, stars, trees, clay, mud, nothing?
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posted
Iblees is not and never was an angel. MASRI got it right about the taghleeb syntax in Arabic. Sands is right about Iblees being one of the jinn.
The answer to freshsoda's question is quite easy,
quote:I mean why Iblis had to bow down to Adam if God asked the angels to do that while Iblis is not from angels.
God says in 7:12 addressing Iblees, "What prevented you from prostrating as I ordered you?"
Hope this helps.
-------------------- "Sell your cleverness and purchase bewilderment" -- Jalaal-ud-Deen Ar-Roomi Posts: 15 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:God says in 7:12 addressing Iblees, "What prevented you from prostrating as I ordered you?"
Hope this helps.
thanks H&M but that again shows that when God asked the angels to prostrate he included Iblis in that, it helped a lot thanks, like i said before if i asked all the ladies to stand I wouldnt be asking sands why he didnt would i, and im sure Allah is much cleverer than me Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: If Iblis was not an angel then these verses are not right. God is saying He asked the angels to prostrate to Adam and Iblis refused, therefore Iblis was among the angels
015.028 YUSUFALI: Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud moulded into shape; 015.029 YUSUFALI: "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him." 015.030 YUSUFALI: So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together: 015.031 YUSUFALI: Not so Iblis: he refused to be among those who prostrated themselves.
Iblis was an angel, perfect in every way:
Ezekiel 28:12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
who is Ezekiel that you quote his words to confirm Quran that you believe it's from God,you use Ezekiel to confirm God's words as you believe,now you try to confirm and clarify Quran through Bible.....now Bible not corrupted,now Bible became a reference to confirm your theory just to believe what you want to believe!!what great deceive? lets review what you mentioned above:
"If Iblis was not an angel then these verses are not right". "God is saying He asked the angels to prostrate to Adam and Iblis refused, therefore Iblis was among the angels"
Your first part is the right conclusion based on logic but second part you want to force the logic to believe the verse is right and when you found it can't be then you have used the SOURCE of Quran which is the Bible hopefully to validate your logic but then again faced by Sands who understand that Quran & Bible can't be in one Basket and if you use Bible to confirm Quranic story then we have an ORIGINAL story and COPY story. which one logically we have to follow?
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
BTW Angels don't procreate! Jinns and Men do!
Gottcha dear Ayisha..
BTW sands, you didnt answer the question I raised by this statement of yours, I will ask again
If Angels dont procreate and Jinn and men do, then you are saying Iblis can procreate. Please explain, thank you.
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quote:Originally posted by freshsoda: who is Ezekiel that you quote his words to confirm Quran that you believe it's from God,you use Ezekiel to confirm God's words as you believe,now you try to confirm and clarify Quran through Bible.....now Bible not corrupted,now Bible became a reference to confirm your theory just to believe what you want to believe!!what great deceive? lets review what you mentioned above:
"If Iblis was not an angel then these verses are not right". "God is saying He asked the angels to prostrate to Adam and Iblis refused, therefore Iblis was among the angels"
Your first part is the right conclusion based on logic but second part you want to force the logic to believe the verse is right and when you found it can't be then you have used the SOURCE of Quran which is the Bible hopefully to validate your logic but then again faced by Sands who understand that Quran & Bible can't be in one Basket and if you use Bible to confirm Quranic story then we have an ORIGINAL story and COPY story. which one logically we have to follow?
Fresh im not sure I fully understand what you are asking but I understand English is not your first language. I dont believe that the Bible is the 'source' of Quran as you put it. I do believe as Allah tells me in Quran that He also gave Books before Quran. I do not think as you do that the Bible is the 'original' story and Quran is the 'copy' story, I beleive its all 'one' story and Quran is the 'completion' of the story.
As you say sands thinks Quran and Bible cant be in one 'basket', but thats up to sands what he thinks and its up to me what I think, I base my thinking on what Allah tells me and not what some scholars 'say' Allah tells me.
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
BTW Angels don't procreate! Jinns and Men do!
Gottcha dear Ayisha..
BTW sands, you didnt answer the question I raised by this statement of yours, I will ask again
If Angels dont procreate and Jinn and men do, then you are saying Iblis can procreate. Please explain, thank you.
Again I told you to re-read and you must have overlooked this post because it was posted earlier:
quote:Here is the entire ayat translate: "And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves unto Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis. He was one of the jinn; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord. Will you then take him and his offspring as protectors and helpers rather than Me while they are enemines to you? What an evil is the exchange for the Zalimun." Suratul 18:50
Read the words in bold. Iblis was a Jinn and he has offspring which means he procreates. Now any other questions you can refer to someone else or a scholar.
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-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: I dont believe that the Bible is the 'source' of Quran as you put it.
I do not think as you do that the Bible is the 'original' story and Quran is the 'copy' story
Do you want an examples how many stories Quran quoted from Bible,well I will show to you then you can answer if the Bible is the source or No.
Of those examples: 1) The story of the creation:, Mentioned in the book of genesis chapter 1 " In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" And also in the cattle chapter (Surat Al-An'am) 73:"It is he who has created the heavens and the earth"
2) The creation of the world in six days Mentioned in the book of genesis chapter 1 And also in iron chapter (Surat Al-Hadid) 4:" it is him who created the heavens and the earth in six Days"
3) Adam and Eva: In the book of genesis chapter 1: 26, 2:18 And in the cow chapter (Surat Al-Baqarah) 30 and the next verses
4) The story of Cain and Abel In the book of genesis chapter 4, And also mentioned in the quran but he called Cain as Cabell but Cain is the original Hebrew word
5) Noah and the flooding It was mention in the quran but it said that one of Noah's sons perished, which was not mentioned in the Holy Bible, as all of Noah's sons were saved
6) Also we have the story of Ibrahim mentioned in the book of genesis in the Holy Bible and in the cow chapter (Surat Al-Baqarah) in the quran
7) The story of Lot mentioned in the book of genesis in the Holy Bible and in Hud chapter
8) The story of Jacob / Israel in the book of genesis in the Holy Bible and in the Ranks (Surat As-Saffaat) in the quran
9) The story of Moses and Pharaoh, the pillar of cloud, the manna and the quail and the rock and the story of the golden calf those mentioned in the book of exodus in the Holy Bible they were mentioned also in cow chapter (Surat Al-Baqarah) in the quran
10) The revelation of God to Moses mentioned in the book of exodus in the Holy Bible, it was also mentioned in cow chapter (Surat Al-Baqarah) and the narration chapter (Surat Al-Qasas) in the quran
11) The annunciation of the angel to Zakaria:
Mentioned in Mary chapter (Surat Maryam) in the quran and in the gospel of Luke in the Holy Bible
12) Virgin Mary and the annunciation of the angel to her:
Mentioned in the Family of Imran chapter (Surat Aal-'Imran) in the quran and in the gospel of Luke in the Holy Bible
13) Difficulty of getting the wickedest into heaven:
In the Holy Bible it is mentioned in the gospel of Luke 18:25: "For it is easier for a camel to enter in through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God".
In the quran in The Heights chapter (Surat Al-A'raf) 40:" Verily, those who belie Our verses and treat them with arrogance, for them the gates of heaven will not be opened, and they will not enter Paradise until the camel goes through the eye of the needle"
14) The recompense of the pious, righteous people in heaven:
In the Holy Bible it is mentioned in 1Corinthians 2:9 "Things which an eye didn't see, and an ear didn't hear, which didn't enter into the heart of man, these God has prepared for those who love him."
In Meshkat Almasabih, page 487, there is a holy converse: narrated Abu-Hurairah that Muhammad said: God said that I prepared for my righteous worshipers Things which an eye didn't see, and an ear didn't hear
15) Miracles of the Christ:
As creation, giving sight to the blind and reviving from death
In the gospel of Matthew: "healing every disease and every sickness among the people"
In the quran in the Family of Imran chapter (Surat Aal-'Imran) 49: I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life"
16) The Jewish' denial of the Christ:
In the gospel of Matthew 26:4:" They took counsel together that they might take Jesus by deceit, and kill him"
In the quran in the Family of Imran chapter (Surat Aal-'Imran) 54:"And they plotted and Allah plotted too. And Allah is the Best of the plotters"
With the difference that in the Holy Bible it was not said that God is plotter, as this could never be
17) The Christ' ascension up to the sky:
In the gospel of Mark:" So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was received up into heaven"
In the quran, in the women chapter (Surat An-Nisa') 158:" But Allah raised him up unto Himself"
And you say "I dont believe that the Bible is the 'source' of Quran " Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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fresh I explained what I meant and you understood it too. Of course I know how much is in Quran referring to the Bible, its the same religion, same God, same message. Quran corrects the errors and completes the message.
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