By Allan Hall Last updated at 11:18 PM on 20th August 2009
A Muslim asylum seeker has been sentenced to life in prison after killing his German-born wife because she was 'too independent', a court in Germany heard today.
The 27-year-old Kurdish man, identified only as Onder B, was found guilty today of stabbing his wife in the eyes, beating her with a billiard cue and then running over her in his car.
His mother-in-law had once told him to be 'strict' with her strong-willed daughter, Mujde - who was also Onder's cousin. On New Year's Eve 2008 he stabbed his 18-year-old wife Mujde 46 times and beat her with a billiard cue. And because she was 'already so disfigured from the stabbing and beating that she would hate me for the rest of her life,' he got into his car and ran over her body several times. Bielefeld District Court judge Jutta Albert convicted him on a charge of murder arising from base motives, and one of cruelty, because the defend ant stabbed his wife in both eyeballs while she was still alive.
He stabbed her so hard in the head with a fruit knife that the blade broke off in her skull. The case has pulled into sharp focus the cultural differences between Western values and the estimated three million Muslim immigrants living and working in Germany. Bielefeld District Court judge Jutta Albert clashed repeatedly this week with family members of both victim and defendant as details of the horrific case unfolded. 'One more remark from you and you'll be removed!' she told the victim’s mother. 'Do you think you can behave here as if you were in a Turkish bazaar?' The killer arrived in Germany as an asylum seeker, in 2001. He was 19 and Mujde was 11 at the time.
He married a Turkish woman 10 years his senior, but the couple soon separated. He returned home to Turkey in 2003, where he performed his mandatory military service, coming back Germany in 2006.
Under a deal between their families a marriage was 'arranged' between him and Mujde, in which he then viewed her, according to prosecutors, 'as his property'. He returned to Turkey and left her in Germany after marrying in 2007. The court was told their relationship degenerated into threats and abuse carried out over the Internet with Mujde at one stage reporting him to the police. The court heard how he was upset 'that she behaved the way she did and didn`t do what he told her'. 'She was too independent and she had to die for it,' said the prosecutor. He returned to Germany at the end of 2008, killing her on New Year`s Eve because, he claimed, she had turned up the car stereo when he tried to speak to her. She had also given him an incorrect PIN three times when he tried to check the calls on her mobile phone, and she had refused to answer him when he asked whether she had been unfaithful.
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: And because she was 'already so disfigured from the stabbing and beating that she would hate me for the rest of her life,' he got into his car and ran over her body several times.
very merciful indeed , I hope the girl's mother is happy now that her daughter is no longer strong willed!
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I really can't get the reason why newspapers put a headline starting with 'Muslim man'. This is just a sick Kurdish/Turkish man with psychological issues (or as TL says, just a sadistic pig).
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OMG this is beyond words! What a sick SICK bastard. Life is not enough for this, neither is death.
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quote:Originally posted by 'Shahrazat: I really can't get the reason why newspapers put a headline starting with 'Muslim man'. This is just a sick Kurdish/Turkish man with psychological issues (or as TL says, just a sadistic pig).
It seems he was following this verse 4:34 but couldn't control himself.
(As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them,refuse to share their beds, beat them but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means,for Allah is Most High )
It is considered a husband's rights that his wife should obey him," Abeer Mishkhas, of the Saudi English-language newspaper Arab News, told BBC News Online.
"This can involve coercion or violence, and we know that the majority of cases of this kind go unreported and unnoticed."
More and more Saudi women go to civil courts to request divorces on grounds of violence, Ms Mishkhas says.
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No freshsoda, I know those Kurds, most of them care about their so called honor or customs, rather than their religion...
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quote:Originally posted by 'Shahrazat: No freshsoda, I know those Kurds, most of them care about their so called honor or customs, rather than their religion...
I'm not sure the Kurds are particularly worse than other muslim men, wife and woman beating (especially unreported domestic violence) is far from being rare in muslim countries, many women also believe that it's their husband's right to discipline them because they have the mentioned verse in mind..
I'd have loved to be able to defend my kind (muslim, male) but the fact remains that we have a divine permission (and even an order) to discipline our wives even if we resort to physical violence, and it's left up to every man to decide what that means.. some kind men forsake their rights and refuse to do so, others who are less kind use "balanced force" and only humiliate their wives by a light slap or a gentle kick, while others of the more violent variety are ready to batter and even maim their wives.. all depending on the nature of the man who in any case, believes he's doing nothing but follow what he's divinely ordered!
It's been like this for ages!
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I'd have loved to be able to defend my kind (muslim, male) but the fact remains that we have a divine permission (and even an order) to discipline our wives even if we resort to physical violence, and it's left up to every man to decide what that means.. some kind men forsake their rights and refuse to do so, others who are less kind use "balanced force" and only humiliate their wives by a light slap or a gentle kick, while others of the more violent variety are ready to batter and even maim their wives.. all depending on the nature of the man who in any case, believes he's doing nothing but follow what he's divinely ordered!
It's been like this for ages!
And this is how Allah gets 'the measure of the man' in how he interprets the instructions Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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"Around the world at least one woman in every three has been beaten, coerced into sex, or otherwise abused in her lifetime. Most often the abuser is a member of her own family."
Domestic violence occurs across the world, in various cultures,[16] and affects people across society, irrespective of economic status.[6] In the United States, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics women are about six times as likely as men to experience intimate partner violence.[17][18] Percent of women surveyed (national surveys) who were ever physically assaulted by an intimate partner: Barbados (30%), Canada (29%), Egypt (34%), New Zealand (35%), Switzerland (21%), United States (22%).[19] Some surveys in specific places report figures as high as 50-70% of women surveyed who were ever physically assaulted by an intimate partner.[19] Others, including surveys in the Philippines and Paraguay, report figures as low as 10%.[19] South Africa is said to have the highest statistics of gender-based violence in the world and this includes rape and domestic violence (Foster 1999; The Integrated Regional Network [IRIN], Johannesburg, South Africa, 25 May 2002).[20] 80% of women surveyed in rural Egypt said that beatings were common and often justified, particularly if the woman refused to have sex with her husband.[21] In India, around 70% of women are victims of domestic violence.[22] The Human Rights Watch found that up to 90% of women in Pakistan were subject to verbal, sexual, emotional or physical abuse, within their own homes.[23] Up to two-thirds of women in certain communities in Nigeria's Lagos State say they are victims to domestic violence.[24] Statistics published in 2004, show that the rate of domestic violence victimisation for Indigenous women in Australia may be 40 times the rate for non-Indigenous women.[25] The rate of intimate partner violence in the U.S. has declined since 1993.[26] Results will vary, depending on specific wording of survey questions, how the survey is conducted, the definition of abuse or domestic violence used, the willingness or unwillingness of victims to admit that they have been abused and other factors.
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yes QM, but they dont all says its religiously sanctioned do they
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You are honest person misfit,as you said we have a divine permission (and even an order) to discipline our wives but the point that it's your responsibility now with yourself,to proof if it's really divine !!
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Good point Questionsmarks but the difference as misfit said we have a divine permission (and even an order) to discipline our wives even if we resort to physical violence, so Muslim women are not able to defend themselves against that divine permission unlike their husbands who beat them and have proof that they follow God’s permission, so no legal action against them . In USA or Newzeland as you wanted to compare, women are protected by law, they can sue their sick husbands and put them in jail for life but in Muslim countries they are hopeless as the Saudi woman presenter said in the link above..
It is considered a husband's rights that his wife should obey him," Abeer Mishkhas, of the Saudi English-language newspaper Arab News, told BBC News Online.
"This can involve coercion or violence, and we know that the majority of cases of this kind go unreported and unnoticed."
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: yes QM, but they dont all says its religiously sanctioned do they
In one of the former Dutch colonies, Suriname, there is a high rate of domestic violence. The population is a perfect mix between the black, yellow and white races. The religions Christianity, Judaism, Islam and Hinduism are living together, almost without any problems. The mosque is near the church and the synagoge. They celebrate each others religious ceremonies. It's impossible to mention one particular group with a higher rate of domestic violence, if you could make a separation in this, it would most probably have to do with social status. The more poor ( or perhaps less educated) are using violence more as the higher classified ( or perhaps more educated?) groups.
So, I don't think we can state that this has to do with religion. Personally I think it has to do with people's feelings of wellness. The more comfortable a person feels - and that has to do with money, with health, with relationship, with carreer, with social skills, with the state of the mind etc.etc.- the less chance on violence anyway.
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quote:Originally posted by freshsoda: Good point Questionsmarks but the difference as misfit said we have a divine permission (and even an order) to discipline our wives even if we resort to physical violence, so Muslim women are not able to defend themselves against that divine permission unlike their husbands who beat them and have proof that they follow God’s permission, so no legal action against them . In USA or Newzeland as you wanted to compare, women are protected by law, they can sue their sick husbands and put them in jail for life but in Muslim countries ,the Saudi woman presenter said in the link above..
It is considered a husband's rights that his wife should obey him," Abeer Mishkhas, of the Saudi English-language newspaper Arab News, told BBC News Online.
"This can involve coercion or violence, and we know that the majority of cases of this kind go unreported and unnoticed."
It's not that black&white. This is supermarket reasoning. A husband has many commands to follow too. In a good relationship the two partners strive for a certain level of mutual prosperity, and they find a balance between their own needs and their partners needs. Then there is no such thing as obedience needed.
The intent of the relious scripts about marriages is meant to let people reach that level. No religious books is giving husband permission to use domestic violence, at the very most a kind of correction is allowed. Picking out one sentence out of a religous script and use it to justify something what is wrong is happening all the time.
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Take a look to this photo QM. Would you explain,if there is an Islamic reason behind that or its only human's behaviour can happen in any part of the world??
posted
We're discussing domestic violence. Stoning is not domestic violence.
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quote:Originally posted by 'Shahrazat: No freshsoda, I know those Kurds, most of them care about their so called honor or customs, rather than their religion...
I'm not sure the Kurds are particularly worse than other muslim men, wife and woman beating (especially unreported domestic violence) is far from being rare in muslim countries, many women also believe that it's their husband's right to discipline them because they have the mentioned verse in mind..
I'd have loved to be able to defend my kind (muslim, male) but the fact remains that we have a divine permission (and even an order) to discipline our wives even if we resort to physical violence, and it's left up to every man to decide what that means.. some kind men forsake their rights and refuse to do so, others who are less kind use "balanced force" and only humiliate their wives by a light slap or a gentle kick, while others of the more violent variety are ready to batter and even maim their wives.. all depending on the nature of the man who in any case, believes he's doing nothing but follow what he's divinely ordered!
It's been like this for ages!
There is absolutely ZERO evidence to suggest that domestic violence happens more in muslim households than any other, and for your benefit I will now trawl the net looking for other cases where men of other (or no) religion have also murdered their wives.
If you are suggesting that muslim men use religion as their excuse, then I would like to ask what excuse all the other men have?
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quote:Originally posted by 'Shahrazat: No freshsoda, I know those Kurds, most of them care about their so called honor or customs, rather than their religion...
I'm not sure the Kurds are particularly worse than other muslim men, wife and woman beating (especially unreported domestic violence) is far from being rare in muslim countries, many women also believe that it's their husband's right to discipline them because they have the mentioned verse in mind..
I'd have loved to be able to defend my kind (muslim, male) but the fact remains that we have a divine permission (and even an order) to discipline our wives even if we resort to physical violence, and it's left up to every man to decide what that means.. some kind men forsake their rights and refuse to do so, others who are less kind use "balanced force" and only humiliate their wives by a light slap or a gentle kick, while others of the more violent variety are ready to batter and even maim their wives.. all depending on the nature of the man who in any case, believes he's doing nothing but follow what he's divinely ordered!
It's been like this for ages!
There is absolutely ZERO evidence to suggest that domestic violence happens more in muslim households than any other,
There was absolutely ZERO eveidence that was what misfit said anyway. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by 'Shahrazat: No freshsoda, I know those Kurds, most of them care about their so called honor or customs, rather than their religion...
I'm not sure the Kurds are particularly worse than other muslim men, wife and woman beating (especially unreported domestic violence) is far from being rare in muslim countries, many women also believe that it's their husband's right to discipline them because they have the mentioned verse in mind..
I'd have loved to be able to defend my kind (muslim, male) but the fact remains that we have a divine permission (and even an order) to discipline our wives even if we resort to physical violence, and it's left up to every man to decide what that means.. some kind men forsake their rights and refuse to do so, others who are less kind use "balanced force" and only humiliate their wives by a light slap or a gentle kick, while others of the more violent variety are ready to batter and even maim their wives.. all depending on the nature of the man who in any case, believes he's doing nothing but follow what he's divinely ordered!
It's been like this for ages!
There is absolutely ZERO evidence to suggest that domestic violence happens more in muslim households than any other,
There was absolutely ZERO eveidence that was what misfit said anyway.
You really can't read can you!
Oh, and please be sure to remind your husband of God's order to discipline you even if he resorts to physical violence.
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quote:Originally posted by 'Shahrazat: No freshsoda, I know those Kurds, most of them care about their so called honor or customs, rather than their religion...
I'm not sure the Kurds are particularly worse than other muslim men, wife and woman beating (especially unreported domestic violence) is far from being rare in muslim countries, many women also believe that it's their husband's right to discipline them because they have the mentioned verse in mind..
I'd have loved to be able to defend my kind (muslim, male) but the fact remains that we have a divine permission (and even an order) to discipline our wives even if we resort to physical violence, and it's left up to every man to decide what that means.. some kind men forsake their rights and refuse to do so, others who are less kind use "balanced force" and only humiliate their wives by a light slap or a gentle kick, while others of the more violent variety are ready to batter and even maim their wives.. all depending on the nature of the man who in any case, believes he's doing nothing but follow what he's divinely ordered!
It's been like this for ages!
There is absolutely ZERO evidence to suggest that domestic violence happens more in muslim households than any other,
There was absolutely ZERO eveidence that was what misfit said anyway.
You really can't read can you!
Oh, and please be sure to remind your husband of God's order to discipline you even if he resorts to physical violence.
no mags its you cant read. Nowhere in misfits post did he say domestic violence happens more in Muslim households than any other
fortunately my husband doesnt feel I need 'discipline' and would never resort to physical violence. He views me as a wife, a partner, not a child or someone he is 'above' and in a position of authority over.
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Any chance you can post for me the order that he referred to in his post. I would like to read it to my wife before I beat her up as God commanded. Which Surah is it in?
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Why should you want to beat up your wife? Do you think beating makes a marriage better?
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quote:Originally posted by Vesuvius: There is absolutely ZERO evidence to suggest that domestic violence happens more in muslim households than any other, and for your benefit I will now trawl the net looking for other cases where men of other (or no) religion have also murdered their wives.
If you are suggesting that muslim men use religion as their excuse, then I would like to ask what excuse all the other men have?
Hi Vesuvius, I did not suggest that muslim men are worse than others, maybe they are but this is not what I said here, what I said is that they have a divine permission or even an order to dicipline their wives that includes resorting to physical abuse! try searching the net for counter evidence for that or for evidence of similar divine orders in other religions instead of listing a few incidents of men of different faiths who killed their wives!
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quote:Originally posted by Vesuvius: There is absolutely ZERO evidence to suggest that domestic violence happens more in muslim households than any other,
There was absolutely ZERO eveidence that was what misfit said anyway.
You really can't read can you!
Oh, and please be sure to remind your husband of God's order to discipline you even if he resorts to physical violence.
Good morning Current, I hope you're not having a bad day or anything No, I think Ayisha can read very well, my words were quite clear.. although it's fair to suggest that more cases of domestic violence go unreported in muslim countries than in the west seeing that muslim women themselves view accepting this abuse as part of their religious duty, I neither suggested that domestic violence doesn't happen with other people nor that it's more prevalent in muslim households. I only referred to a well known issue in Islam, I'm surprised you are asking for the pertinent sura as I'm sure you must have seen it being repeated many times in this forum!
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I think, but I'm not an expert nor a muslim, that the sura must be read in the context of the whole. There already are numerous discussion-boards where people slam each other with sura's, hadith, etc. just to prove that Islam is a threat to humanity and the synonyme of wrong/bad/unfairness etc.
Most of us don't have the religious knowledge to know what is written in all those books, above that, I think we are supposed to use our own logic to know what's right and what's wrong. If I have to use a religious justification for my acts, then AT LEAST it has been an act that could call resistance by people around me.
We all know that using violence is wrong, and when I have to use a religious justification to make right something what is wrong, then we can place questionmarks by our own acts. Most of the time, we didn't read well enough, and just picked out that only sentence that suits us, leaving out what doesn't suit us. Is that right? Don't think so...
When a Western man from another religion is using violence within his household, most of the time, he also will look for excuses. No religious excuse will come into his mind, because Western society doesn't use religious justifications, but he will make another excuse, like the woman is working on my nerves or something else. It's a justification, just like the muslim man is using a sura or a hadith. It is an escape! It is an excuse to let something wrong look right...
Maybe it can be a point for the religious scholars. It does make Islam look bad, just like so many other issues are pointed out in a negative way regarding the religion. Maybe the scholars should have to pay more attention to that.
But what do we see? Several scholars are using the same justifications....
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: A husband has many commands to follow too.
such as?
quote: In a good relationship the two partners strive for a certain level of mutual prosperity, and they find a balance between their own needs and their partners needs. Then there is no such thing as obedience needed.
That's in a good relationship, unfortunately not all relationships are good, nor do all partners strive to reach or manage to find that balance, actually in many cases one partner seeks to dominate the other one way or another and in the muslim case the man gets a divine permission to use his physical force; which is actually the lamest thing one can use to reach that domination.
quote: The intent of the relious scripts about marriages is meant to let people reach that level. No religious books is giving husband permission to use domestic violence, at the very most a kind of correction is allowed. Picking out one sentence out of a religous script and use it to justify something what is wrong is happening all the time.
Careful QM, this phrase "at the very most a kind of correction is allowed" clearly states that you condone at least a form of physical violence, although you'd rather call it "correction" . I don't mean to attack you or anything but I'd like to ask you if you're a female (I'm sorry I don't know your gender) would you like to be "corrected" by say a slap on the face or a hit of a stick? I don't know about you but this "correction", even in its lightest form, the form of showing the stick to a helpless human being and waving it in the air for threatening, I find too humiliating and dehumanizing for me to accept for any woman I care for!
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quote:Originally posted by misfit: although it's fair to suggest that more cases of domestic violence go unreported in muslim countries than in the west seeing that muslim women themselves view accepting this abuse as part of their religious duty
Egypt: Abused Women Reluctant to Come Forward
Despite the opening of the first safe-house for women in Cairo, few are choosing to leave their abusive marriages due to the social stigma and financial insecurity they would face.
Oum Mohammed was married when she was 16. "From the day I married him, he hit me over matters big and small," she says of her husband.
"He told me that all women should be beaten. I didn't protest because I was afraid he'd throw me and my children into the street," she adds. "I'd seen my father hit my mother, and in every house in the alley a man hits a woman."
Oum Mohammed's story is just one of 700 case studies that the Association for the Development and Enhancement of Women (ADEW), a local NGO, has collected over the past several years.
Hearing stories like these convinced ADEW that there was an urgent need for a shelter for women who are victims of violence.
According to the NGO, domestic abuse is common in Egypt. A 2001 survey conducted in low-income neighbourhoods found that 96 percent of women had been beaten at least once by their husbands.
Such violence is often condoned by society, or even by the victims, experts say.
A majority of the women surveyed in a government study, for example, said a husband had the right to beat his wife if she talked to him disrespectfully, talked to another man, spent too much money or refused her husband sex.
If a woman goes to the police station to report domestic abuse, the police adopt "the cultural perspective that the man has the right to do it", says ADEW officer Bahira El-Gohary.
Men convicted of domestic violence in Egypt face sentences ranging from monetary fines to three years in prison. According to Nihad al-Qumsan, head of the Egyptian Centre for Women's Rights, however, "most of the time, judges give low penalties".
Obtaining a divorce, meanwhile, even in marriages where there is physical abuse, can be a long and costly procedure.
The fundamental problem is that most women have nowhere to go in the event that they leave their husbands. They face the economic difficulty of supporting themselves and their children, as well as the social stigma of living without a man.
The families and neighbours of such women often encourage them to return to their husbands.
The ADEW shelter was set up to offer them an alternative.
"This has never been done before," says ADEW Director Iman Bibars.
According to women's rights groups, there are no other public or private shelters for women escaping abusive relationships in Egypt, and only a few across the entire Middle East.
But bringing about the ground-breaking project hasn't been easy.
"We've had very many problems with the opening of the shelter," admits Azza Salah, head of the project.
While it has taken time to raise funds and find trained medical staff, ADEW officials say the greatest obstacle has been the women's own fear of leaving their homes.
"We're facing taboo issues: women sleeping outside the home and staying away from their families," says El-Gohary. "Most of the women express their fears about how society would view them and whether it would accept them back."
Salah says that many women think "if they leave the house, their husbands will take another woman".
According to al-Qumsan, women also have reservations about the shelter's capacity to provide for them once they have left their husbands. For a shelter to work, she says, it has to provide "a complete solution," which means "helping a woman to become more independent, find a job, feed herself and her kids and find her own house".
This is what ADEW's "House of Eve" hopes to do. Located at an undisclosed location in the capital, the shelter offers counselling, medical check-ups, job training, literacy classes and legal advice.
If they choose to, about 20 women can live at the shelter with their children for up to three months. Upon leaving, they are given small loans as part of a micro-credit programme.
For now, women from some of Cairo's poorest neighbourhoods are coming to the shelter to attend classes and talk to counsellors. But none of them have taken the step of moving into the House of Eve fulltime.
Any woman "is most welcome to come," says El-Gohary.
quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: A husband has many commands to follow too.
such as?
quote: In a good relationship the two partners strive for a certain level of mutual prosperity, and they find a balance between their own needs and their partners needs. Then there is no such thing as obedience needed.
That's in a good relationship, unfortunately not all relationships are good, nor do all partners strive to reach or manage to find that balance, actually in many cases one partner seeks to dominate the other one way or another and in the muslim case the man gets a divine permission to use his physical force; which is actually the lamest thing one can use to reach that domination.
quote: The intent of the relious scripts about marriages is meant to let people reach that level. No religious books is giving husband permission to use domestic violence, at the very most a kind of correction is allowed. Picking out one sentence out of a religous script and use it to justify something what is wrong is happening all the time.
Careful QM, this phrase "at the very most a kind of correction is allowed" clearly states that you condone at least a form of physical violence, although you'd rather call it "correction" . I don't mean to attack you or anything but I'd like to ask you if you're a female (I'm sorry I don't know your gender) would you like to be "corrected" by say a slap on the face or a hit of a stick? I don't know about you but this "correction", even in its lightest form, the form of showing the stick to a helpless human being and waving it in the air for threatening, I find too humiliating and dehumanizing for me to accept for any woman I care for!
A correction can be anything. In a marriage sometimes there are disagreements. It depends on the character of the two, how they handle issues. Talking about what is bothering you, also can be a kind of correction. It is a signal: I don't like this!
For the rest it just are logical things. Commands are taken too strongly. It's just the normal behaviour; don't hurt, don't lie, treat the other as you like to be treated etc...
No big deal. Just common sense...
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: A correction can be anything. In a marriage sometimes there are disagreements. It depends on the character of the two, how they handle issues. Talking about what is bothering you, also can be a kind of correction. It is a signal: I don't like this!
For the rest it just are logical things. Commands are taken too strongly. It's just the normal behaviour; don't hurt, don't lie, treat the other as you like to be treated etc...
No big deal. Just common sense...
OK, for some the signal is a slap on the face or a kick in the but and they are confident that this is what god authorized them to do.. do such examples exist or is it just my imagination? now for those who have it in their nature to take commands too strongly as you said, can we blame them if they just follow the divine script? and why shouldn't they when the command is that clear? and the notion of don't hurt, do unto others, etc. is not really what's emphasized.. only straightening disobedient wives is, and because it was already a misogynistic culture when the command was given, wasn't it a good idea to command mercy, love and mutual understanding instead of one sided beating? Just wondering!
Posts: 956 | From: nowhere | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by misfit: [QUOTE]Originally posted by current: [qb] my words were quite clear.. although it's fair to suggest that more cases of domestic violence go unreported in muslim countries than in the west seeing that muslim women themselves view accepting this abuse as part of their religious duty, I neither suggested that domestic violence doesn't happen with other people nor that it's more prevalent in muslim households.
What about Muslims in England, Bosnia, Indonesia and...? What about women in India or Vietnam?
quote:Originally posted by misfit: [QUOTE]Originally posted by current: [qb] I'm surprised you are asking for the pertinent sura as I'm sure you must have seen it being repeated many times in this forum!
You see, you are just as lacking in your Arabic language skills as I once was. But thanks to Dalia, Ayisha and others, I now am able to understand Arabic as never before.
Or it may mean: To travel to get out: 3:156; 4:101; 38:44; 73:20; 1:273 To strike: 2:60; 7:160; 8:12; 20:77; 24:31; 26:63; 37:93; 47:04 To beat: 8:50; 47:27 To set up: 43:58; 57:13 To give (examples): 14:24-45; 16:75,76,112; 18:32,45; 24:35; 30:2858; 36:78; 39:27,29; 43:17; 59:21; 66:10-11 To take away, to ignore: 43:5 To condemn: 2:61 To seal, to draw over: 18:11 To cover: 24:31 To explain: 13:17
Now, they will not tell you that because what you wrote went right over their heads. On the other hand if Ahmed wrote what you wrote, he would have been slain.
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Interesting, I don't remember reading that thread before.
quote:Originally posted by current: Now, they will not tell you that because what you wrote went right over their heads.
I absolutely understand what misfit is saying, in fact the two of us had a heated discussion about this issue before. Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: A correction can be anything. In a marriage sometimes there are disagreements. It depends on the character of the two, how they handle issues. Talking about what is bothering you, also can be a kind of correction. It is a signal: I don't like this!
For the rest it just are logical things. Commands are taken too strongly. It's just the normal behaviour; don't hurt, don't lie, treat the other as you like to be treated etc...
No big deal. Just common sense...
OK, for some the signal is a slap on the face or a kick in the but and they are confident that this is what god authorized them to do.. do such examples exist or is it just my imagination? now for those who have it in their nature to take commands too strongly as you said, can we blame them if they just follow the divine script? and why shouldn't they when the command is that clear? and the notion of don't hurt, do unto others, etc. is not really what's emphasized.. only straightening disobedient wives is, and because it was already a misogynistic culture when the command was given, wasn't it a good idea to command mercy, love and mutual understanding instead of one sided beating? Just wondering!
No, as far as I have expierenced, all men who were using violence, were doing that while knowing it is wrong. They just look for excuses... TBH, I never met a man who was using the religious excuse, but they exist, as also the men using other excuses, will exist. I do not really understand what you want to hear from me. Do you want me to say that the religious scripts are wrong, just as in so many other posts to so many other members, who seem to be fixated on the religion Islam? You are not going to hear that from me. Islam, just as other religions, is also something that has been given to people, and they can do with it what they like. If somebody is abusing a religious book, they will face the consequences, just by any other act. If a husband doesn't treat his wife in a good way, then he will get a bad marriage...simple!
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quote:Originally posted by misfit: although it's fair to suggest that more cases of domestic violence go unreported in muslim countries than in the west seeing that muslim women themselves view accepting this abuse as part of their religious duty
Egypt: Abused Women Reluctant to Come Forward
Despite the opening of the first safe-house for women in Cairo, few are choosing to leave their abusive marriages due to the social stigma and financial insecurity they would face.
Thanks Dalia for the article, another tear jerking story that I happen to have witnessed myself is of a lady cleaner who comes regularly to my parents, a good woman who is probably over 70 now and have been serving in houses for the last 40 years after her husband decided he doesn't want to work any more, more than fifty years ago her family forced her to marry her cousin, at first he tried several jobs but failed to maintain any steady income, and as the products of his sexual desires accumulated she was left with no other choice but serve in houses until she gradually became the sole bread winner of her entire household of 9 kids, the husband found he was much better off sentencing her to hard labour while he went through one financial adventure after another, needless to say they were all failures, and caused nothing but eat up her small hard eaned savings; until finally, in order to cut the losses, she managed somehow to convince him to just relax at home and spend his time between his bed and the cafe where he gets the chance to spend less of the money she earned by moving from house to house, sometimes cleaning more than 2 or 3 houses per day. this lady wakes up with dawn prayers, buys vegetables and other stuff to sell to the families she goes to in order to make a few extra piasters (now pounds), walks a few Kms carrying her heavy load to the bus, rides the bus to the metro station with her heavy load then jumps in the microbus only to reach a point from which she could start walking to her destination, she makes this journey everyday of the week including fridays with no rest or days-off, and because there are 10 mouths to feed (now complimented by their kids) she can't afford to get sick or stay home for some rest, when she falls ill she just keeps going head over heels through the winter rain and the summer scorching sun without a hint of complaint! The rest of this sad story is even sadder, she was lately diagnosed with breast cancer and had mastectomy followed by radio and chemotherapy, she became a living skeleton, but how long do you think this horrible experience give her excuse to stay home for rest? two months, yes only 60 days and she soon went back to her original routine, all trials to convince her to accept some financial help and stay home instead of going through this unbearable suffering totally failed, she said this army has no one to feed but her and she knows she is a gonner so she needs to leave something behind her to keep them somewhat safe! I used to think this was the saddest story on earth, ntil one day she got emotional and kind of broke down in tears and opened up to tell an even sadder and more horrible story, through her sobbing and tears she confessed she was being beaten by her husband on a regular basis ever since she got married, her family always supported him and explained to her that this was quite normal, and even now in the state she was in she's still being beaten, and she screamed and cried hysterically, saying that she can now, even with her illness, easily over power her abusive 70+ husband and beat him up or at least strike him back, but she would never do that because he's the man, and god has permitted him to beat her because women are incomplete and disobedient by nature and she wouldn't want to anger god!
I know this is a rather rare and unusual story, but to me, the existance of even one case of suffering such as this, makes me have to wonder why!
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Sad story. However, if the lady is over 70, all of her children must be adult, and none of them manages to get an income, to take care of her now she is old and sick? I guess outsiders won't know the details about such stories, but it sounds like she is one of the types that created situations herself.
I recently talked with a woman, who has a job, a household, and at morning, before starting her own job, she did the newspaper-jobs of her youngest son- because he wouldn't wake up at time- and was complaining about the other son, who didn't have an own student-job and therefore came knocking on her door too! She created this situation herself. When her children are not 'able' to wake up on time, while they are supposed to deliver newspapers before 7 AM each morning, then they loose their job. When they loose their job, they have no income. Simple as that. As soon as mummy starts to sponsor the children because they are too lazy to work for theirselves,she is creating her own misery.
So, in this case, having 9 ADULT children, who seem to be able to multiply and make babies, but aren't able to keep a job, she has done something wrong. It's not unusual in families that one has more then one job, and the rest is squeezing him/her out, because of the fact he/she makes money... Also with relatives who are working abroad...they are used and abused by their own relatives!
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by current: What about Muslims in England, Bosnia, Indonesia and...? What about women in India or Vietnam?
What about them? I'm sorry I didn't get your point!
quote:Now, they will not tell you that because what you wrote went right over their heads. On the other hand if Ahmed wrote what you wrote, he would have been slain.
I'm not sure what I wrote went over anyone's head, I know for a fact that many people here have different opinions and could agree with parts of what I said or disagree fully and it's perfectly fine. Like Dalia said, we had several heated discussions about this and similar subjects and the same thing happened between me an Ayisha in another board, besides I'm sure the way you present your argument makes a lot of difference, if you're logical and sensible and presenting a calm argument that respects people's intelligence and preserves their right to disagree people will undoubtedly appreciate that and probably consider your point of view or at least respect it, but if you resort to insults, profanity and foul talk and loads of non-sense like some posters do, I'm sure people would want to fight back.
And since you mentioned Ahmad by name, I'd like to ask your opinion as a reasonable person, are you happy with his attitude? I won't mention the non-sense because it's kind of subjective, but how about the etfoos, esfokhses, the fck you hookar, etc. do you think it's acceptable for any civilized debate?
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-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by 'Shahrazat: I really can't get the reason why newspapers put a headline starting with 'Muslim man'.
Most serious newspapers wouldn't do that, and I agree that it's idiotic. But this article is from the Daily Mail. Always consider the source. Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: Sad story. However, if the lady is over 70, all of her children must be adult, and none of them manages to get an income, to take care of her now she is old and sick? I guess outsiders won't know the details about such stories, but it sounds like she is one of the types that created situations herself.
I recently talked with a woman, who has a job, a household, and at morning, before starting her own job, she did the newspaper-jobs of her youngest son- because he wouldn't wake up at time- and was complaining about the other son, who didn't have an own student-job and therefore came knocking on her door too! She created this situation herself. When her children are not 'able' to wake up on time, while they are supposed to deliver newspapers before 7 AM each morning, then they loose their job. When they loose their job, they have no income. Simple as that. As soon as mummy starts to sponsor the children because they are too lazy to work for theirselves,she is creating her own misery.
So, in this case, having 9 ADULT children, who seem to be able to multiply and make babies, but aren't able to keep a job, she has done something wrong. It's not unusual in families that one has more then one job, and the rest is squeezing him/her out, because of the fact he/she makes money... Also with relatives who are working abroad...they are used and abused by their own relatives!
I understand QM that you have a background in psychology or something! I'm amazed you look at things with this amount of apathy!
yes, you're right, this lady has not done a very good job raising her kids, and you know why? because she was probably too busy putting bread in their mouths.. now according to you a woman who had no education and was raised in the poorest parts of Egypt and have spent her entire life serving like a slave in houses to provide for an entire family including an abusive husband who himself was a burden, this woman who has seen nothing but heartache and suffering all her life, is being blamed now and accused of failing to spend more "quality time" with her kids in order to provide them with the proper manners and equip them to better take care of themselves and of her when she grows old? don't you think it's a bit insensitive!
If you must know all the bitter details, her elder son is in jail and she has to take care of his kids, also one of her daughters died quite young leaving her kids at her custody since their father abandoned them.. there might be other tragedies in her life too but I guess they must all be her fault because she'as one of those people who creat their own bad luck!
There's a lot of misery everywhere, but misery takes a very cruel form among poor and ill-educated people, the story was meant to show that this lady's suffering was not for a good reason and could have been avoided if she didn't feel religiously obliged to take this abuse, but it's alright, we can all sit in our leather chairs behind our computers and confidently point the finger at her and insist it's her own fault!
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This might sound cruel to you, but still is the opinion professionals might have. This woman is keeping in score a negative situation by taking others responsibilities. By working for her grandchildren because the parents don't, she approves that her children don't work. And yes, letting go is hard, but still the only solution when she wants to change this situation.
Did you ever read professional advices for parents from addicted children? Their addiction needs a lot of money, they are not able to finance their addiction, and they are asking relatives for money? Or just steal it, when they don't get it voluntary? How they manipulate their parents, how it breaks the aprents heart to see their children like this? How difficult it is to keep the door closed for your own children????
Nevertheless it's the only solution. The children won't change, untill they fall deep. When they have reached the deepest point they HAVE to change.
Do you think I don't know such situations? Of course the woman has only good intentions, of course she has manoeuvred herself in a vicious circle where it's hard to get out, but is she helped with feeling sorry? No, she isn't. Is she helped by giving money? By giving money you just help to maintain this situation...
You know, I even saw situations where the children start to blame their parents for bringing them in such a situation. A small thank for their pain...
Don't get me wrong, I am not apathic or cruel. I am using my logic, nothing more...
By the way, one in jail, one dead, that means 7 left. Seven adult people who are able to work and for reason, refuse. The woman is 70 years old and sick. If I were her, I should make them clear it's their turn now, and refuse to give them one piaster anymore...
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Misfit I did not say that you said it happens MORE, but you are implying that it happens because God gave men the allowance.
Personally I dont believe that God did give them the allowance to do it, because it defies other parts of the Quran and therefore makes no sense.
The original topic is titled 'muslim man' and so the debate continues. My point is that this happens in all walks of like, to 1 in 3 women. Whether a man uses religion as an excuse is beside the point, he might use drugs, alcohol, or just that his wife is getting on his nerves.
I was not entering into a conflict with you about what you posted specifically, just that, it happens everywhere and you do not see the headlines reading 'agnostic beats wife to death' 'catholic kills wife' etc etc
I read the article and didnt see him saying 'God said I could do it' So why did it become about Islam.
God didn't tell people to go out and murder in the name of Islam either, thats another contradiction. Just because certain people might want to justify sick behaviour by using religion doesn't mean that its ABOUT religion.
For all those who wish to argue this point please find a verse in the Quran or authentic hadith that says 'If your wife anoys you stab her in the eyes'
This UK Judge also says that there is no evidence to suggest that DV is more common in muslim households. Although I cant remember in which part. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnsIeh_s05g&NR=1
Misfit, I think you said that muslim women wont come forward about DV because of the religion. But many women, regardless of faith, dont come forward or press charges about DV, usually violence/abuse has happened many times before a woman finally gets the courage to speak out about it, and STILL people dont always believe her.
Its a common problem everywhere and until newspaper stop printing 'muslim man' and pinning his behaviour on to the religion (as others have done here) then it will never be recognised as a global problem, regardless of religion or race.
I also think that sheiks and those in a high position in all faiths and all communities need to be more aware and against such behaviour.
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quote:Originally posted by Vesuvius: Its a common problem everywhere and until newspaper stop printing 'muslim man' and pinning his behaviour on to the religion
I agree on what you said there. Yet a question comes to mind while we are at it, why did our media insist on using the term "Veil Martyr" while dealing with an obviously racist crime?
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: This might sound cruel to you, but still is the opinion professionals might have. This woman is keeping in score a negative situation by taking others responsibilities. By working for her grandchildren because the parents don't, she approves that her children don't work. And yes, letting go is hard, but still the only solution when she wants to change this situation.
Did you ever read professional advices for parents from addicted children? Their addiction needs a lot of money, they are not able to finance their addiction, and they are asking relatives for money? Or just steal it, when they don't get it voluntary? How they manipulate their parents, how it breaks the aprents heart to see their children like this? How difficult it is to keep the door closed for your own children????
Nevertheless it's the only solution. The children won't change, untill they fall deep. When they have reached the deepest point they HAVE to change.
Do you think I don't know such situations? Of course the woman has only good intentions, of course she has manoeuvred herself in a vicious circle where it's hard to get out, but is she helped with feeling sorry? No, she isn't. Is she helped by giving money? By giving money you just help to maintain this situation...
You know, I even saw situations where the children start to blame their parents for bringing them in such a situation. A small thank for their pain...
Don't get me wrong, I am not apathic or cruel. I am using my logic, nothing more...
By the way, one in jail, one dead, that means 7 left. Seven adult people who are able to work and for reason, refuse. The woman is 70 years old and sick. If I were her, I should make them clear it's their turn now, and refuse to give them one piaster anymore...
QM, I still say that your logic is apathetic and cruel, I explained the point in the story and explained that we cannot judge her since we don't know the rest of the tragedies in her life, maybe the rest of her kids are no more than a bunch of ingrates who are not willing to support her, I also agreed with you that she maybe mistaken but she was not in a position to give them a better upbringing, I explained all of that but you still insist to give me that professional mumbo jumbo about how you'd behave if you were her, well, you're not her and for that you should only be grateful! do you also recommend I give her a call to lecture her about how she messed up her own life?
I agree with you BTW, the woman did a mistake and I definitely would not raise my kids the same way, and your valuable professional views can probably help the new generations to achieve a better life and even save the planet, but what good do you think it can do to a woman in her situation?
A little empathy please!!
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Sub-zero, the PM maxed and I couldn't reply, but you were right about every word you said in there, it's the most boring indeed! Posts: 956 | From: nowhere | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Vesuvius: Misfit I did not say that you said it happens MORE, but you are implying that it happens because God gave men the allowance.
Personally I dont believe that God did give them the allowance to do it, because it defies other parts of the Quran and therefore makes no sense.
How can it defy other parts of the Quran? do you think parts of Quran defy each other?
quote: I also think that sheiks and those in a high position in all faiths and all communities need to be more aware and against such behaviour.
What exactly can sheikhs say to stop this? do you think convincing the common man that "beating" does not actually mean beating will work?
quote: Its a common problem everywhere and until newspaper stop printing 'muslim man' and pinning his behaviour on to the religion (as others have done here) then it will never be recognised as a global problem, regardless of religion or race.
I agree completely that it is wrong of the newspaper to mention the man's religion in a way that implies it has something to do with the horrible crime, but I will have to add that it's primarily the muslims' fault that they became known worldwide for their erratic behavior, I was watching the news in a foreign country when 9/11 happened and all my muslim colleagues jumped with joy, right in front of everyone, so I say as long as we advocate terrorist behavior we shouldn't go about complaining that we are described as terrorists!
Posts: 956 | From: nowhere | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: This might sound cruel to you, but still is the opinion professionals might have. This woman is keeping in score a negative situation by taking others responsibilities. By working for her grandchildren because the parents don't, she approves that her children don't work. And yes, letting go is hard, but still the only solution when she wants to change this situation.
Did you ever read professional advices for parents from addicted children? Their addiction needs a lot of money, they are not able to finance their addiction, and they are asking relatives for money? Or just steal it, when they don't get it voluntary? How they manipulate their parents, how it breaks the aprents heart to see their children like this? How difficult it is to keep the door closed for your own children????
Nevertheless it's the only solution. The children won't change, untill they fall deep. When they have reached the deepest point they HAVE to change.
Do you think I don't know such situations? Of course the woman has only good intentions, of course she has manoeuvred herself in a vicious circle where it's hard to get out, but is she helped with feeling sorry? No, she isn't. Is she helped by giving money? By giving money you just help to maintain this situation...
You know, I even saw situations where the children start to blame their parents for bringing them in such a situation. A small thank for their pain...
Don't get me wrong, I am not apathic or cruel. I am using my logic, nothing more...
By the way, one in jail, one dead, that means 7 left. Seven adult people who are able to work and for reason, refuse. The woman is 70 years old and sick. If I were her, I should make them clear it's their turn now, and refuse to give them one piaster anymore...
QM, I still say that your logic is apathetic and cruel, I explained the point in the story and explained that we cannot judge her since we don't know the rest of the tragedies in her life, maybe the rest of her kids are no more than a bunch of ingrates who are not willing to support her, I also agreed with you that she maybe mistaken but she was not in a position to give them a better upbringing, I explained all of that but you still insist to give me that professional mumbo jumbo about how you'd behave if you were her, well, you're not her and for that you should only be grateful! do you also recommend I give her a call to lecture her about how she messed up her own life?
I agree with you BTW, the woman did a mistake and I definitely would not raise my kids the same way, and your valuable professional views can probably help the new generations to achieve a better life and even save the planet, but what good do you think it can do to a woman in her situation?
A little empathy please!!
Dear Misfit, Do you expect this woman would be open for a professional advisor? I think she must feel like her life is almost finished, and that it has been a disappointed life anyway. I think she is hoping God will reward her, and ( when there is a God) he will, because she indeed didn't know better.
As far as I have expierenced also parents need a certain degree of 'desperateness' to let your own children fall deep, hoping they will climb up again. Sometimes they don't, and then you have to live in the knowledge that you failed, and that hurts. Loosing a child what isn't dead...knowing that he will do all what God has forbidden, that your child is bad...
I have an opinion about this subject and it isn't the same opinion as you have. That's possible, but that doesn't mean it is a bad opinion. I just look to the subject in another way...
So, I'm afraid I don't have an advice. She is 70 and sick, and all you can do is doing what you are doing right now. What I should do in such situation is totally unrelevant. I shouldn't come in a such a situation, because I have been born in another society, raised up with other values, choosed for another type of husband, and raised my children in another way. I cannot compare myself with her...
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I am not familiar with the Islamic way of life, but I do know that men beating their wifes is not just limited to Muslims. The domestic violence rate in the USA is quite large...not only are men beating their wives, but their children as well...going so far as to kill them..and kill themselves. There have been at least 4 incidents in the news lately about this very thing.
Men beat their wives for 3 reasons..
it makes them feel big...it makes them feel in control and they are ignorant
Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Jews...it's all the same...if a man has problems with himself or feels the need to be in control or is just plain ignorant..he will most like take it out on the person closest to him...his wife.
And also...there have been many cases of women beating their husbands..and they husbands are very ashamed to come forward...so there are really no accurate statistics on this.
quote:Originally posted by misfit: How can it defy other parts of the Quran? do you think parts of Quran defy each other?
No but I believe that the verse in question can be interpretted differently and not in the way that it has been commonly understood. I also dont believe it was given as a licence to beat your wife. When it was common at the time to beat a woman or bury her at birth I hardly think that an order to tap someone with a small stick the size of a toothbrush would have been received by the arabs with joy.
If we had in the news cases of women being murdered by toothbrushes then we might have a point to blame it on Qur'an, but since we dont, it doesn't really apply.
I agree that the principle is questionable, but I also understand that the words used in that verse can be interpretted differently and since a husband and wife are suposed to be treating each other with kindness, I am only left to my own devices to draw a conclusion on this aspect.
Since we are all open to try to interpret the Quran, I prefer this interpretation as it makes far more sense, we all know that beating someone is not going to resolve anything, don't we?
Does Qur'anic verse 4:34 "allow a superior husband to beat his inferior, disobedient wife?"
If ever there has been a controversial verse in the Holy Qur'an, it certainly is verse 4:34. Used by opponents of Islam to label this religion woman-unfriendly (to put it mildly), Muslims themselves are struggling with interpreting it. For yes, let us agree about this: there is no such thing as “the” one and only correct interpretation of the Word of Allah – only Allah knows what He meant. We can only try to understand. And in this particular case, an alternative for the troublesome interpretations of this verse may bring us a bit closer to that objective.
Let us have a look at a (partial) translation of this verse 1:
"Men are the {qawwam} of women, because Allah has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are {qanitat}, and guard in the husband's absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear {nushuz}, admonish them first, then refuse to share their beds, and finally {adriboo} them; but when they {ataa:} to you, then seek not against them means of annoyance: For Allah is Most High, great above you all. "
Disobedient women?
The key word to answer this question is {qanitat}, which is a feminine plural of {qanit}, based on the root {q-n-t}. This word appears on many other occasions in the Holy Qur'an 2, where it is used exclusively in the sense of 'submissive, obedient to Allah'. Verse 4:34 contains no reason at all to depart from this meaning and to change it into 'obedience to a husband'. This verse is about pious women who, just like pious men, are obedient to Allah. And a wife (husband) who is obedient to God, must live up to her (his) marital duties.
Superior husband and inferior wife?
Throughout the Holy Qur'an, Allah emphasizes that men and women are equal for Him – Allah will judge them in exactly the same way 3. So it would be strange indeed if a verse would contradict this equality. But is that really the case here? The Arabic word used is {qawwam}, an intensive form of {qaim}, meaning: 'to take care of, to look after'. Therefore, does this verse say that men are superior to women? Not at all. It says: men must look after women. In Islam, men are obliged to financially provide for their wife and children. They have to pay for their housing, clothing, food, medicines, etc. That is what {qawwamoona} means: men must take care of women.
Misbehaviour?
Is this verse about what a man should do when his wife 'misbehaves'? The exact word used here, {nushuz}, means 'discord, hostiliy, dissonance'. In this context it could be interpreted as 'marital problems'.
Beating his wife?
The verse instructs a husband whose wife causes problems in their marriage to first talk to her about it, then leave the marital bed, then {adriboo} his wife, and all of this in view of pursueing a reconciliation as is evident from the subsequent verse 4:35.
The Arabic word used here, {adriboo}, from the root {d-r-b}, has several dozens of meanings, such as: 'to beat', but also: 'to forsake, to avoid, to leave'.
How do we know which interpretation to choose? One way to find out, is to relate this verse to other verses in the Holy Qur'an and to check if the meanings make sense. In this case, let us look at verse 24:2, which describes what should be done in case of adultery :
"The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes..." (Holy Qur'an 24:2)4
This verse establishes the principle that for men and women, equal actions lead to equal punishment. When for adultery men and women must receive equal punishment, surely there is no reason why they should be treated differently for any lesser marital problem.
Now let us take a look at the consequences of interpreting {adriboo} one way or another.
Suppose {adriboo} means: 'to beat'.
In this case, verse 4:34 says that when a wife causes a problem in the marriage, her husband should first talk to her about it, then leave their bed, then beat her and all of this in view of increasing his chances of a reconciliation. On the emotional level, this certainly does not sound like a very promising course of action. So let us check this meaning against the bigger framework and in particular against the principle of 'equal behaviour leads to equal punishment'. This would imply that when a husband causes a problem in the marriage, his wife can beat him. At which he could invoke verse 4:34 to beat her again, so that the result would be a perpetual physical fight between spouses! Surely, this makes no sense at all. And indeed, it is not what Allah prescribes for the situation where a husband causes a rift, as will be explained in a moment.
Suppose {adriboo} means: 'to forsake, to avoid', possibly, as Mohammed Abdul Malek5 suggests: 'to separate, to part' .
Now what do we get? Verse 4:34 now says that when a wife causes a problem in the marriage, her husband should first talk to her about it, then leave their bed (forsaking his sexual satisfaction), then avoid her even more (not talking to her anymore, leaving the room when she enters it, and possibly even leaving the house for a while), in order to prevent things from getting worse, and on the contrary to let things cool down and create enough space in view of increasing chances of a reconciliation.
This sounds like a very logical chain of events.
Also, application of the general rule of verse 24:2 ('equal actions, equal punishment') now means that when a husband causes a marital problem, his wife should forsake a few of her rights, avoid her husband in increasing ways, and try to work towards a reconciliation. And yes, that is precisely what verse 4:128 says:
"If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves" (Holy Qur'an 4:128)4
Understanding {adriboo} as 'to forsake, to (gradually) avoid (more and more), possibly eventually leave altogether', clearly makes sense when relating several verses to one another.
And there is more. Beating a wife, would contradict hadiths of the Holy Prophet who repeatedly said: “do not beat believing women!”. It would also contradict the Holy Prophet's instructions about anger – which (unless it is caused by injustice) he explained to originate from Satan and which he described as "a living coal on one's heart". One should not act upon ones anger, lest one would do things one would regret later. When you are angry when you are standing, sit down, the Holy Prophet said. And when you are still angry when you are sitting, then lie down. Interpreting this verse as allowing a husband to beat his wife, surely contradicts these rulings on anger.
Furthermore, Allah says in the Holy Qur'an that one must meet bad behaviour with something that is better, not with something that is worse, in order to turn a hostile situation into a friendly one:
"Nor can goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate!" (Holy Qur'an 41:13)4
Therefore the word {adriboo} cannot really have meant “to beat”, can it. It must mean something that is better than causing problems, and avoiding the problem certainly is exactly that.
Based on the evidence presented here, it would seem that interpreting {adriboo} as 'to beat', causes several internal conflicts with the meaning of other Qur'anic verses and hadiths, while interpreting it as 'gradually forsaking, more and more and possibly leaving altogether', is a much more logical interpretation that is entirely consistent with the interpretation of other rules in the Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet Muhammad.
What makes much more sense, is that this verse does not allow a 'superior' husband to 'beat' his 'inferior, disobedient' wife. On the contrary, this verse appears to tell us that a husband must look after his wife (an equal partner who, like he, is obedient to God), and that when his wife is causing problems in their marriage, he should first talk to her about it, if that doesn't help, he should begin avoiding her by leaving the marital bed. If that still doesn't resolve the situation, he should forsake her presence even more, avoid conversations, leave a room when she enters it, avoid her company altogether, and possibly leave the house for a while, so that no problems are added to the conflict, and so that things can cool down a bit to maximise chances for a later reconciliation.
Return to obedience?
When the problem is solved, when the wife is committed to the marriage again, then the husband is advised not to keep using the incident against her and to consider the incident closed.
The exact Arabic wording is: "when then they (fem.pl.) {aTa:} (with) you (masc.pl.), then seek not against them (fem.pl) means of annoyance". The verb {aTa:} (alif taa alif ayn) has several meanings, such as: 'obey', but also: 'comply, comply with, accommodate, give in to', or in French 'filer doux'. Consequently, the verse can be understood to mean: "when then they are committed to the marriage again", or: "when then they give in to/comply with the efforts of the husband to save the marriage", or "when they no longer cause marriage problems", ... Linguistically there is no compelling necessity to translate {aTa:} as "obedient to the husband" . Other interpretations are possible and indeed preferable. Earlier in the verse, there was no reason at all to translate {qanitat} as women who are "obedient to their husband" so that here there isn't any reason to imply that this verse is about a temporary disobedience and a subsequent return to obedience to their husbands. It is not a matter of obedience to him, it is a matter of {nushuz} (marriage problems). And the Holy Quran advises that when one of the partners causes a marriage problem, the other should gradually avoid the person who causes the problem, in order to save the marriage - irrespective of who started the strife (4:34, 4:128)
Yet of course, this is only an interpretation. Allah knows best.
Of course it would make sense that patriarchal societies would prefer a more male dominated interpretation, and I believe that is what we have got in most of our interpretations.
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, I hope the girl's mother is happy now that her daughter is no longer strong willed!
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