quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade:

Sura 7:124. We Find Pharaoh admonishing his sorcerers because they believed in the superiority of Moses’s Power over theirs. The Pharaoh threatens them with cutting off their hands and feet on opposite sides, and then says they will all die on the cross. But there were no crosses in those days. Crucifixion was first practised by the Phoenicians and the Carthaginians and then borrowed extensively by the Romans close to the Time of Jesus, 1700 years after the Pharaoh.

Here is another Sura that speaks of this same threat upon those Magicians.

[ The Quran ; Sura No. 20 ; Ta’Ha:71 ] “Be sure I will cut off your hands and feet on opposite sides, and I will have you crucified on trunks of palm-trees, so you shall know for certain, which of us can give the more lasting Punishment”

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*Sura 7:124. http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=7&tid=18515

**The Quran ; Sura No. 20 ; Ta’Ha:71 http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=20&tid=32185

quote:

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Originally posted by Snoozin:
I've seen different translations, but some state it means *egg-shaped.*

It's Sura 79:30

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*Sura 79:30 : " (30. And after that He spread the earth,)
[ http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=79&tid=56944 ]

It is clear the shape of the Earth is not being described here?
Is it???

quote:

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Originally posted by ben_elias:

If you will accept my argument listed above in this thread about the world being flat in verse 15.19 and throughout this thread?

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Hi,
*you are reffering to:
"19. And We have spread out the earth, and have placed firm mountains in it, and caused all kinds of things to grow in it, in due proportion" http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=15&tid=26866

** the word "spread" does not mean "flat".

** defination of "spread" http://www.answers.com/spread

Humanized you said; LAYERS OF THE EARTH :
One item of information about the Earth given in the Qur'an is its similarity to the seven-layered sky:

Starjade says: When I was astral traveling in outer space at a Time in the future I saw three white rings around this Planet and so I know it is protected. Anyone sitting on a Mountain watching the sky often may see a comet of some sort hit the stratosphere and bounce off and realize there is a force field around this planet. I say there are three as I have seen them. Two are close together not far from the Planet and one larger ring twice there distance away from the other two rings.

I saw an eruption blast out of this Planet going beyond the outer Sphere. I estimated this eruption blasted out some 900 km into space blowing out the Arctic circle and the whole of Alaska into space. With much power still exuding from its central core. This estimate is that the outer stratosphere is below 800 km from planet surface to space. Of course I only had an Atlas to draw such calculations

Humanized you said:
It is Allah Who created the seven heavens and of the earth the same number, the Command descending down through all of them, so that you might know that Allah has power over all things and that Allah encompasses all things in His knowledge. (Qur'an, 65:12)

Starjade says: So then you who cannot give a true description or whereabouts of 7 heavensheaven and the 7 earths. now Muhammad says and decides there must be seven. And it says seven earths well then where are they.?

As so many errors exist in the Koran then the Sura 4:82 states the Koran did not come from God and that makes Muhammad a liar and a fraud. An inescapable fact. False prophets are presumptuous to think they could speak in Gods name. So any God Muhammad spoke about was a God of Muhammads own imagination. So any statement from Muhammad is not a Divine Revelation.

See it said It is Allah Who created the seven heavens and of the earth the same number, and so there must then be seven Earths. But we all only know of one. Well not actually including me as I have always been a dimensional time traveler but that is all way too deep for you to understand. Yet you only give descriptions of one earth. Leaving a lot out as well.

Humanized you said:
The information in the above verse is confirmed in scientific sources, wherein it is explained that the Earth consists of seven strata. These, as scientists have identified, are: 1st layer: Lithosphere (water) 2nd layer: Lithosphere (land) 3rd layer: Asthenosphere 4th layer: Upper Mantle 5th layer: Inner Mantle 6th layer: Outer Core 7th layer: Inner Core

Starjade says: Well that is interesting science of this planet. Any fool living near a Volcano can see the inner core of this Planet is molten. It is clear it cools and creates land and we all know of lifelive in the sea and we all breathe air as we stand on that land and we see the air around us go up to the clouds and we see the meteors bounce of the stratosphere and so we know the air does not leave the planet for we are in a bubble and we see stars beyond this Planet and know from those things that move in space that it is vast and deep. So a speculation does not make religious revelation as the data can be figured out by others means. In fact I just named seven myself but could even name less of more. Of course that is Earth stuff and not heavens is it.?

Seven Heavens and Seven Hells
In suras 15:43-44 and 17:44 we find reference to the seven hells and the seven heavens. Without asking where these seven heavens and hells are located, it will be helpful to note that the same number of hells and heavens can be found in the tradition called Jagigah and Zuhal.
It does seem everyone loves the number 3 and the number 7 it is most popular. Hell
The Qur'anic description of Hell resembles the descriptions of hell in the Homilies of Ephraim, a Nestorian preacher of the sixth century (Glubb, pg.36) Sounds like someone has been pinching another writers descriptions.
You will have to do better than this to save the Koran with hundreds of other errors in the waiting. Any for any Philosopher can create a picture of layers from things we see around us daily. One of my most favourite errors is about Moses and the threat against the magicians and of who adopted Moses. Already other Muslims helped me prove the Koran was wrong when they tried to defend the Koran and its statements. What do you believe eh entertain me.

Moses
The first concerns the adoption of Moses by Pharaoh's wife (in sura 28:9). This story contradicts the Biblical Exodus 2:10 version, which states that it was Pharaoh's daughter who adopted Moses. It is important to note here that had Pharaoh's wife adopted Moses, he would have consequently been adopted by Pharaoh himself, making him heir to the throne. This fact alone makes the subsequent story of Moses's capture and exile rather incredulous.

Pharaoh's Cross
In sura 7:124 we find Pharoah admonishing his sorcerers because they believe in the superiority of Moses's power over theirs. Pharoah threatens them with cutting off their hands and feet on opposite sides, and then says they will all die on the cross. But their were no crosses in those days. Crucifixion was first practised by the Phoenicians and the Carthaginians and then borrowed extensively by the Romans close to the time of Christ, 1700 years after Pharaoh!

And this one is so very funny.
Jinns & Shooting stars:
Meteors, and even stars are said to be missiles fired at eavesdropping Satans and jinn who seek to listen to the reading of the Qur'an in heaven, and then pass on what they hear to men in suras 37:6-10; 55:33-35; 67:5; & 72:6-9.

How are we to understand these suras? Can we believe indeed that Allah throws meteors, which are made up of carbon dioxide or iron-nickel, at non- material devils who steal a hearing at the heavenly council? And how do we explain the fact that many of earths meteors come in showers which consequently travel in parallel paths. Are we to thus understand that these parallel paths imply that the devils are all lined up in rows at the same moment?

Also I hear Muslims say issa as a name for jesus. It is most common and yet.
Issa
The name for Jesus in the Qur'an is given as "Issa." Yet this is incorrect. Issa is the Arabic equivalent of Esau, the name for the twin brother of Jacob. The correct Arabic name for Jesus would be Yesuwa, similar to the Hebrew Yeshuwa, yet the supposedly "all-knowing" Qur'an has no mention of it.

Tsk seems you Muslims cannot speak Arabic eh? tsk tsk.

Yet rather than tackle those errors which still must be done. You escape to an easy task of speaking of things pertaining to the earth eith an assumption that people think as you decide they think. People have wondered about this planet since Time began. Not just of this Planet but of the things outside of it. Philosophers have spoken about Creation since man began to think and yet you make claims nobody was considering these things so you could boost the ego of Muhammad who is already proven overwhelmingly by the Koran to be a proven liar and a fraud.

Sura 4:82 states if just one error exists in the Koran then that is the proof that the Koran did not come from God and so Muhammad is without any doubt a fraud unless you really do think you could give an account for the many errors that do exist in the Koran.

We both already know you cannot do that and neither can any other Muslim. That proves the Koran did not come from God and so there is no divine revelation or miracles at all in the Korans book of deception. There are only idolisers like you trying to make mountains out of mole hills whiles you glorify a false prophet.

The worst of this matter is that as Muhammad clearly is presumptuous to think he could speak in Gods name he did speak of his own Ideal of what he wanted his God to be like and to this day those who followed him under that follow Islam or die attitude are now all worshipping a God of Muhammads own imagination. That is Blasphemy. False God worshipping is a terrible blasphemy and Muslims show no shame.

Seven Heavens and earths of that same number add to 14 and so you are seven short of a excuse.

Starjade says: Oh panic notteth Kamal I was not going to list over 500 errors out after all the Challenge of the Koran Sura 4:82 is to find just one error in the Koran. If just one error is found in the Koran as the Sura 4:82 says that is the proof that the Koran did not come from God.

With the vast list of errors shown so far I have already proven that the Koran did not come from God right in front of your faces. We all know that is a fact and so it is Time as Islamic law demands for that conversion.
Will you look good bald headed clanking on a tambourine dancing around lampposts singing Hari krishana

ben_elias you said: Hi Kamal211, You asked starjade to find a problem with the Koran. Does it have to come from her or may I show you a problem scientifically with the Koran?

Starjade says: (Loud Cough) erm scuse me but I am a male. The alpha and omega male. I am the Lord King Starjade a King of Kings. Kings are always males. OK.

ben_elias you said:
If you will accept my argument listed above in this thread about the world being flat in verse 15.19 and throughout this thread? Enlighten me on this verse. I can be wrong so please show me how I am. God bless,Benjamin Eliaszaki_boxing@yahoo.com

Starjade says: But you are not wrong Ben for Mad Muhammad the false Prophet of Islam did believe that the Earth was flat.

The Earth
Several thousand years ago, the Holy Bible clearly recorded that the earth is round and that it is hung on nothing.

"It is He who sits above the circle of the earth" (Isa. 40:22).

"He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing" (Job 26:7).

Yet, the Qur’an challenges these established scientific facts. In many places, it alludes to the fact that the earth is flat and its mountains are like poles which create a balance so that the Earth does not tilt. Let us consider what the Qur’an says about the Earth:

In chapter 88:17,20, it is recorded,
"Will they not regard the camels how they are created...and the Earth how it is spread?"

In page 509, the Jalalan says,
"In his phrase, ‘how it is spread’, he denotes that the earth is flat. All the scholars of Islamic law agree upon this. It is not round as the physicists claim."
The Qur’anic teaching is obvious from the comment of Jalalan that "the earth is flat and not round as the scientists claim". What made Jalal al-Din say so is that the Qur’an hints in many chapters that the earth is flat(refer to 19:6, 79:30, 18:7, and 21:30).

Also the Qur’an indicates that:
"We have placed in the earth firm hills lest it quake so as not to sway and hurt people" (21:31).

Scholars who agree upon the meaning of this verse believe as the Jalalan states (pp. 270-271),

"God has founded firm mountains on earth lest it shake people."

On page 429, al-Baydawi says,
"God has made firm mountains on earth lest it sway people and quake. He also made heaven as a ceiling and kept it from falling down!"

The Zamakhshari agrees with the above authors and reiterates the same words (refer to Zamakhshari part 3, p. 114).

In the Qur’an (chapter 50:7), we find another verse which carries the same meaning,
"And the earth have we spread out, and have flung firm hills therein" (Surah Qaf: 7).
This is accompanied by the same comment by the above Muslim scholars (refer to Jalalan, p. 437; Baydawi, p. 686, Tabari, p. 589, and Zamakhshari, part 4, p. 381). All of them assure us that "if it were not for these unshakable mountains, the earth would slip away."

Zamakhshari, the Baydawi and the Jalalan say: "God has built heaven without pillars but He placed unshakable mountains on Earth lest it tilts with people." Concerning chapter 50:7, the Suyuti says that scholars indicate that "Qaf is a mountain which encompasses the entire earth" (refer to Itqan, part 3, p. 29). Qaf is an Arabic L like K.

These are the comments of the ancient Muslim scholars word for word. Even some Saudi scholars wrote a book a few years ago to disprove the spherical aspect of the earth and they claimed that it is a myth, agreed with the above mentioned scholars, and said we must believe the Qur’an and reject the spherical aspect of the earth.

It is also well-known that the Qur’an proclaims that there are seven earths—not just one (refer to the commentary of the Jalalan, p. 476, al-Baydawi, p. 745 as they interpret chapter 61:12, Surah Divorce: 1 2)

It is very clear that the sun does not traverse the heaven and set down in a murky, muddy well, or slimy water, or a place which contains both of them as the Baydawi, Zamakhshari, and the Qur’an remark.

Nor is the earth flat and the mountains the pillars and the towerings which prevent the earth from moving as the Qur’an and the scholars said. Nor is there a mountain which encompasses the whole earth—nor are there seven earths.

Neither is the lightning an angel whose name is Rafael, nor is the thunder an angel. It never happened that the angel Gabriel inspired Muhammad to write a complete chapter about his friend the angel thunder! The thunder and lightning are natural phenomena and not God’s angels like Michael and Gabriel as the prophet of Islam claims.

The Phenomena of Thunder and Lightning

It is common knowledge, as scientists teach, that thunder is a sound caused by the impact between electrical charges found in the clouds.

Yet Muhammad, the prophet of Muslims, has a different opinion in this matter. He claims that the thunder and the lightning are two of God’s angels—exactly like Gabriel!

In the Qur’an there is a chapter under the title of "Thunder" in which it is recorded that the thunder praises God. We might think that it does not mean that literally because thunder is not a living being—although, spiritually speaking, all of nature glorifies God.

The expounders of the Qur’an and its chief scholars, however, insist that Muhammad said that the thunder is an angel exactly like the angel Gabriel. In his commentary (p. 329), the Baydawi comments on verse 13 of chapter of the Thunder,

"Ibn ’Abbas asked the apostle of God about the thunder. He told him, ‘It is an angel who is in charge of the cloud, who (carries) with him swindles of fire by which he drives the clouds."’

In the commentary of the Jalalan (p. 206), we read about this verse:

"The thunder is an angel in charge of the clouds to drive them."

Not only ibn ’Abbas asked Muhammad about the essence of the thunder, but the Jews did too. In the book, "al-Itqan" by Suyuti (part 4, p. 230), we read the following dialogue:

"On the authority of Ibn ’Abbas, he said the Jews came to the prophet (peace be upon him) and said, ‘Tell us about the thunder. What is it?’ He told them:

‘It is one of God’s angels in charge of the clouds. He carries in his hand a swindle of fire by which he pricks the clouds to drive them to where God has ordered them.’ They said to him, ‘What is this sound that we hear?’ He said: ‘(It is) his voice (The angel’s voice)."’

The same incident—the question of the Jews and Muhammad’s answer are mentioned by most scholars. Refer, for instance, to al-Sahih al-Musnad Min Asbab Nuzul al-Ayat (stories related to the verses of Qur’an, p. 11) and al-Kash-shaf by the Imam al-Kamakhshari (part 2, pp. 518, 519). He reiterates the same story and the same words of Muhammad. Thus, the incident is in vogue among all Muslim scholars, and the story and the dialogue between Muhammad and the Jews is well-known.

We have mentioned what the Baydawi, Jalalan, Zamakhshari, Suyuti, and ibn ’Abbas have said. We do not know (among the ancient scholars) any who are more famous than these. Concerning lighting, Muhammad affirms that it is an angel like the thunder and like Gabriel and Michael.

On page 230 of the above references, Suyuti alludes to it. Also on page 68 of part 4 of the "Itqan", the Suyuti records for us the names of the angels, which are: "Gabriel, Michael, Harut, Marut, the Thunder and the Lightning (He said) that the lightning has four faces."

The Suyuti listed all these under the sub-title, "The names of God’s Angels". He also indicated that Muhammad said that the lightning is the tail end of an angel whose name is Rafael (refer to part 4, p. 230 of the Itqan).

Newcomer you said:
You can make any claims you like, but if you insist on misquoting the verses you want to use in support of your claim not only once, but twice, and then try to make it appear that I have deficient thinking when I use your own reference rather than apologize for your error, it’s not the type of ethical behaviour that would encourage me to want to even consider taking your claim of “prophethood” seriously (apart from many other perhaps more obvious reasons!)...they don’t sound like the type of words that would be put into any “prophet’s” mouth!

Starjade says: OUCH. Was it something I said you are touchy aren’t you. It must be that ikkle devil that hides up your nose causing you to get all gruff. Tsk have I gone and upset you (sigh) I just wonder how that might have happened.

The Living God can put as many words in my mouth as the Living God chooses but do not ever forget that I also have my own mind and to me you should hearken. Exactly what real Prophets do you know then eh.? Zilch of course. You even speak of false Prophets Jesus and Muhammad but you do not know any real Prophets not even me. So how could you know what a Prophet might be or say or do. That then would be just your speculations.

I do not need for you to Judge and consider if I am a Prophet or not. Only the Living God Judges that. Did you know the law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 is a law that was brought down by Moses from the Living God. Did you know that the whole of the Old Testament is considered to be the word of God and so every Time I quote the Old Testament or the Living Gods laws of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 I am actually speaking the word of the Living God.

Starjade says: Don’t you worry about me Ben I am used to being on far more hard core forums than this and it is all water off a ducks back. I don’t mind flame wars after all when speaking of religious matters such things are taken to the heart so when islam is already proven false before the conversation begins it is bound to upset a few idolisers isn’t it. OH and be sure Ben I am correct and I note you do not dispute that fact nor cannot dispute that fact. In fact no Muslim can so I suggest you go tell your Imam about Starjade and get him online then you shall see with your own eyes Islam has bitten the Dust and not even your Imams can dispute that fact. Be the wise never to underestimate me. I do know what I am talking about.

Ben Elias you said: Ill admit that some of her analysis of Islam is incorrect but this is between me and her alone.

Starjade the Lord King Starjade is more of a man than you could ever dream to be. God chose me not you for I was worthy and you were not. So cut out the sarcasm insults of calling me she sarcasm is only clever when I do it. As you brag the brag that some of my statements are not correct then why not back your mouth up and prove that so we can all see if you brag the brag with a truth or as we expect yet another lie. Deception is the Mother word of Islam.

Starjade says: Well said Kamal. Now you see the light let it be spread around so others can see from their darkness.

Kamal you said: "… He (Muhammad) said, "First of all, there was nothing but Allah, and (then He created His Throne). His throne was over the water, and He wrote everything in the Book (in the Heaven) and created the Heavens and the Earth…"

Starjade says: It just makes no sense does it.

Kamal you said:
Does this story make any sense? Notice that the contents of the parenthesis are from the translator. If there was ‘nothing’ how Allah could have put His Throne over the water? Where was Allah sitting prior to that? From the above hadith one perceives that the water was there before the creation of the heaven and the earth. There is no mention that God created water! What was holding that water? Don’t you have to have a space first to put the Earth in it? And don’t you need to have an Earth to contain the water? It appears as if there is an error in the order of creation.

Starjade says: And trust me Kamal you have only touched the tip of a very big Iceberg. Clearly the story is not true and is fabricated. I just hate to see those gullible Muslims deceived in this way. These false claims make their children idiots when we should encourage evolution for mankind to progress.

The Earth looks nothing like an egg.

I have seen this Planet from Outer space whiles astral travelling and it looked more round to me. Its blue ness just staggers you.

Troubles you enquired: Out of curiosity...Where did you get this law from?

Starjade says: I was writing on a Sallam form way back in 1997 ish. I got speaking to an Islamic expert called Mahi. He knows more about islam than any other Muslim I have ever met. He taught me all about Islam and Mad Muhammad and also Islamic law. So I know how a Muslim thinks and know his religions history better than any Muslim. I know the law is true Mahi is not the kind of person to ever be wrong.

I also quoted that same Islamic law to a Muslim here in Blackpool and he had also heard of that law. The law is solid and sound and often used.

quote:

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Originally posted by Kamal211:
*Sura 7:124. http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=7&tid=18515

**The Quran ; Sura No. 20 ; Ta’Ha:71 http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=20&tid=32185

***Definition of "crucify: [does not neccesrily indicate a CROSS ] http://www.answers.com/crucify&r=67
1. To put (a person) to death by nailing or binding to a cross.
2. To mortify or subdue (the flesh).
3. To treat cruelly; torment: crucified the awkward child with teasing.
4. To criticize harshly; pillory: The media crucified the politician for breaking a campaign pledge.

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Hi Starjade,

You have clearly misunderstood the word "crucify", I have corrected you.
You claimed that this verse was wrong purely on the basis that the "Cross" did not exist in the time of the Phoroah.

Had the Quran implied the "cross" in any way, your point will be taken.
But it did not, and the I have listed possible definition of this word! Therefore this "error" you claimed is based on your false understanding.

As I first said, LIST ONE "ERROR"!

I knew you would not be able to pass it, and God knows how many times you mis-understood many other "translated" words!

I know I will be wasting my time to say this:
but if you still can prove that the very first "mistake" you pointed out above, then i'll take on the other "500", if not, then I take it that the next "500 errors" are just as ludicrious as the first!

PS. Dont waste your time on mentioning "other mistake" until you finish discussing this first "mistake" you brought up, I wont comment on anything else other than this.

Sura 7:124. We Find Pharaoh admonishing his sorcerers because they believed in the superiority of Moses’s Power over theirs. The Pharaoh threatens them with cutting off their hands and feet on opposite sides, and then says they will all die on the cross. But there were no crosses in those days. Crucifixion was first practised by the Phoenicians and the Carthaginians and then borrowed extensively by the Romans close to the Time of Jesus, 1700 years after the Pharaoh.

Here is another Sura that speaks of this same threat upon those Magicians.
[ The Quran ; Sura No. 20 ; Ta’Ha:71 ] “Be sure I will cut off your hands and feet on opposite sides, and I will have you crucified on trunks of palm-trees, so you shall know for certain, which of us can give the more lasting punishment”

Starjade says: as a matter of fact kamal I had a very long debate with another Muslim over this error in the Koran. Note these are words from another scholar not mine. What is missed is in the Old Testament those magicians were never put under any threat by the Pharaoh at all.

It only claims in the Koran that they were threatened then killed and cut up and spread about the market place only in the Koran.

No place else. The Old Testament is the origin of that data. The Old testament does not record any threat against those magicians. Those magicians were never under any threat in the Old Testament and that is the only original source of the data.

quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade:
Snoozing your dreaming the earth is not shaped like an egg at all. Eggs have one fat end for the babe to sit in and a thin end at the top for the head.

The Earth looks nothing like an egg.

I have seen this Planet from Outer space whiles astral travelling and it looked more round to me. Its blue ness just staggers you.

Hey which came first the Chicken or the Egg. I know the answer but do you.?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade:
quote:
.....

Troubles you enquired: Out of curiosity...Where did you get this law from?

Starjade says: I was writing on a Sallam form way back in 1997 ish. I got speaking to an Islamic expert called Mahi. He knows more about islam than any other Muslim I have ever met. He taught me all about Islam and Mad Muhammad and also Islamic law. So I know how a Muslim thinks and know his religions history better than any Muslim. I know the law is true Mahi is not the kind of person to ever be wrong.

I also quoted that same Islamic law to a Muslim here in Blackpool and he had also heard of that law. The law is solid and sound and often used.

Many Muslims from the past would come online arguing this and that with Mahi that they did not agree with and debates in that place were very hard core. Yet each Time Mahi would come along and prove his words true every time. I have never seen him ever make a mistake. He also was an expert on many other religions. Not just his own. You would all have liked Mahi he is the one you needed for a Kalipha. Sadly the Salaam board closed down. I still have some files on disc from those days.

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This Mahi thing reminds me of Shampoo ADs on our TV

Starjade says: Hi Kamal.

Kamal you said: You have clearly misunderstood the word "crucify", I have corrected you.You claimed that this verse was wrong purely on the basis that the "Cross" did not exist in the time of the Pharaoh.

Starjade says: No the scholar who originally found that error in the Koran used those words. Those were his views. I say it is an error simply because the magicians were never under any threat by the Pharaoh it only makes that claim in the Koran not in the original Old testament where that source of data comes from.

I was repeating an error found in the Koran by another person in his words. My own words on the matter usually come along when a muslim attempts to dispute that error. They are always shocked to find out that those magicians were never under any threat at all. It was just an Islamic lie fed to Muslims. There are hundreds of more errors just as important and just as wrong. Such as The Koran claims Moses cast down his staff before the pharaoh. Yet in the Old Testament it says it was Aaron who cast his staff down before the pharaoh and it turned into a snake. The Koran is littered with such errors.

Kamal you said: Had the Quran implied the "cross" in any way, your point will be taken.But it did not, and the I have listed possible definition of this word! Therefore this "error" you claimed is based on your false understanding.

Starjade says: Trust me Kamal I have every Muslim under the sun it appears trying to excuse that claim of cutting off of the hands and feet on opposite sides and then crucifying the body. That form of punishment is Islamic as any Muslim knows. That punishment is still practiced to this very day. But it was not practiced by the Egyptions and those magicians were not killed or threatened with death. It only makes that claim in the Koran. And in my own view a crucifixion is an impaling of a body onto anything.

Kamal you said: As I first said, LIST ONE "ERROR"!

Starjade says: I have listed a whole lot of errors that exist in the Koran were you asleep. Here is a good one. Let me see you try and reply Oh please do try and reply as I found this most entertaining. What are you Muslims being taught at school eh. I shall save the Jinns for later on.

The Phenomena of Thunder and Lightning
It is common knowledge, as scientists teach, that thunder is a sound caused by the impact between electrical charges found in the clouds. Yet Muhammad, the prophet of Muslims, has a different opinion in this matter. He claims that the thunder and the lightning are two of God’s angels—exactly like Gabriel!

In the Qur’an there is a chapter under the title of "Thunder" in which it is recorded that the thunder praises God. We might think that it does not mean that literally because thunder is not a living being—although, spiritually speaking, all of nature glorifies God.

The expounders of the Qur’an and its chief scholars, however, insist that Muhammad said that the thunder is an angel exactly like the angel Gabriel. In his commentary (p. 329), the Baydawi comments on verse 13 of chapter of the Thunder,

"Ibn ’Abbas asked the apostle of God about the thunder. He told him, ‘It is an angel who is in charge of the cloud, who (carries) with him swindles of fire by which he drives the clouds."’

In the commentary of the Jalalan (p. 206), we read about this verse:
"The thunder is an angel in charge of the clouds to drive them."

Not only ibn ’Abbas asked Muhammad about the essence of the thunder, but the Jews did too. In the book, "al-Itqan" by Suyuti (part 4, p. 230), we read the following dialogue:
"On the authority of Ibn ’Abbas, he said the Jews came to the prophet (peace be upon him) and said, ‘Tell us about the thunder. What is it?’

He told them:
‘It is one of God’s angels in charge of the clouds. He carries in his hand a swindle of fire by which he pricks the clouds to drive them to where God has ordered them.’ They said to him, ‘What is this sound that we hear?’ He said: ‘(It is) his voice (The angel’s voice)."’

The same incident—the question of the Jews and Muhammad’s answer are mentioned by most scholars. Refer, for instance, to al-Sahih al-Musnad Min Asbab Nuzul al-Ayat (stories related to the verses of Qur’an, p. 11) and al-Kash-shaf by the Imam al-Kamakhshari (part 2, pp. 518, 519). He reiterates the same story and the same words of Muhammad. Thus, the incident is in vogue among all Muslim scholars, and the story and the dialogue between Muhammad and the Jews is well-known.

We have mentioned what the Baydawi, Jalalan, Zamakhshari, Suyuti, and ibn ’Abbas have said. We do not know (among the ancient scholars) any who are more famous than these. Concerning lighting, Muhammad affirms that it is an angel like the thunder and like Gabriel and Michael. On page 230 of the above references, Suyuti alludes to it. Also on page 68 of part 4 of the "Itqan", the Suyuti records for us the names of the angels, which are: "Gabriel, Michael, Harut, Marut, the Thunder and the Lightning (He said) that the lightning has four faces."

The Suyuti listed all these under the sub-title, "The names of God’s Angels". He also indicated that Muhammad said that the lightning is the tail end of an angel whose name is Rafael (refer to part 4, p. 230 of the Itqan).

Kamal you said:
I knew you would not be able to pass it, and God knows how many times you mis-understood many other "translated" words! I know I will be wasting my time to say this:but if you still can prove that the very first "mistake" you pointed out above, then i'll take on the other "500", if not, then I take it that the next "500 errors" are just as ludicrious as the first!

Starjade says: Stop yakkling on the brag of brag that we both know you cannot back up. If just one error exists in the Koran then the Koran admits that it does not come from God. Now sometimes other errors exist within other errors. Yet I see nobody certainly not any Muslims coming forwards in any vane attempt to dispute those many errors and you are not in a position to dispute them. Many many Muslims came before you who tried and they were experts on the religion of Islam. You clearly are not.

See me Kamal I could not care less about the crucifixion thingy. My argument is that those magicians were never put under any threat. Now you have a staggering amount of errors to sift through and then you will grow chickens feet and run away. The thing you will not do is dispute those many errors that exist in the Koran for the fact those errors do exist in the Koran. That fact is indisputable. That is the point of the Sura 4:82 if just one error exists in the Koran then that is the proof that the Koran does not come from God and that fact makes Muhammad a liar and a fraud.

Kamal you said:
PS. Dont waste your time on mentioning "other mistake" until you finish discussing this first "mistake" you brought up, I wont comment on anything else other than this.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Starjade:
So Mad Muhammad was not any scientist was he and for those of you who do not know about the Thunder and lightening thingy have a good laugh at this.

The Phenomena of Thunder and Lightning

It is common knowledge, as scientists teach, that thunder is a sound caused by the impact between electrical charges found in the clouds.

Yet Muhammad, the prophet of Muslims, has a different opinion in this matter. He claims that the thunder and the lightning are two of God’s angels—exactly like Gabriel!

In the Qur’an there is a chapter under the title of "Thunder" in which it is recorded that the thunder praises God. We might think that it does not mean that literally because thunder is not a living being—although, spiritually speaking, all of nature glorifies God.

The expounders of the Qur’an and its chief scholars, however, insist that Muhammad said that the thunder is an angel exactly like the angel Gabriel. In his commentary (p. 329), the Baydawi comments on verse 13 of chapter of the Thunder,

"Ibn ’Abbas asked the apostle of God about the thunder. He told him, ‘It is an angel who is in charge of the cloud, who (carries) with him swindles of fire by which he drives the clouds."’

In the commentary of the Jalalan (p. 206), we read about this verse:

"The thunder is an angel in charge of the clouds to drive them."

Not only ibn ’Abbas asked Muhammad about the essence of the thunder, but the Jews did too. In the book, "al-Itqan" by Suyuti (part 4, p. 230), we read the following dialogue:

"On the authority of Ibn ’Abbas, he said the Jews came to the prophet (peace be upon him) and said, ‘Tell us about the thunder. What is it?’ He told them:

‘It is one of God’s angels in charge of the clouds. He carries in his hand a swindle of fire by which he pricks the clouds to drive them to where God has ordered them.’ They said to him, ‘What is this sound that we hear?’ He said: ‘(It is) his voice (The angel’s voice)."’

The same incident—the question of the Jews and Muhammad’s answer are mentioned by most scholars. Refer, for instance, to al-Sahih al-Musnad Min Asbab Nuzul al-Ayat (stories related to the verses of Qur’an, p. 11) and al-Kash-shaf by the Imam al-Kamakhshari (part 2, pp. 518, 519). He reiterates the same story and the same words of Muhammad. Thus, the incident is in vogue among all Muslim scholars, and the story and the dialogue between Muhammad and the Jews is well-known.

We have mentioned what the Baydawi, Jalalan, Zamakhshari, Suyuti, and ibn ’Abbas have said. We do not know (among the ancient scholars) any who are more famous than these. Concerning lighting, Muhammad affirms that it is an angel like the thunder and like Gabriel and Michael.

On page 230 of the above references, Suyuti alludes to it. Also on page 68 of part 4 of the "Itqan", the Suyuti records for us the names of the angels, which are: "Gabriel, Michael, Harut, Marut, the Thunder and the Lightning (He said) that the lightning has four faces."

The Suyuti listed all these under the sub-title, "The names of God’s Angels". He also indicated that Muhammad said that the lightning is the tail end of an angel whose name is Rafael (refer to part 4, p. 230 of the Itqan).

---

The Phenomena of Thunder and Lightning
It is common knowledge, as scientists teach, that thunder is a sound caused by the impact between electrical charges found in the clouds.

Yet Muhammad, the prophet of Muslims, has a different opinion in this matter. He claims that the thunder and the lightning are two of God’s angels—exactly like Gabriel!
In the Qur’an there is a chapter under the title of "Thunder" in which it is recorded that the thunder praises God. We might think that it does not mean that literally because thunder is not a living being—although, spiritually speaking, all of nature glorifies God.

The expounders of the Qur’an and its chief scholars, however, insist that Muhammad said that the thunder is an angel exactly like the angel Gabriel. In his commentary (p. 329), the Baydawi comments on verse 13 of chapter of the Thunder,

"Ibn ’Abbas asked the apostle of God about the thunder. He told him, ‘It is an angel who is in charge of the cloud, who (carries) with him swindles of fire by which he drives the clouds."’

In the commentary of the Jalalan (p. 206), we read about this verse:
"The thunder is an angel in charge of the clouds to drive them."

Not only ibn ’Abbas asked Muhammad about the essence of the thunder, but the Jews did too. In the book, "al-Itqan" by Suyuti (part 4, p. 230), we read the following dialogue:
"On the authority of Ibn ’Abbas, he said the Jews came to the prophet (peace be upon him) and said, ‘Tell us about the thunder. What is it?’ He told them:

‘It is one of God’s angels in charge of the clouds. He carries in his hand a swindle of fire by which he pricks the clouds to drive them to where God has ordered them.’ They said to him, ‘What is this sound that we hear?’ He said: ‘(It is) his voice (The angel’s voice)."’

The same incident—the question of the Jews and Muhammad’s answer are mentioned by most scholars. Refer, for instance, to al-Sahih al-Musnad Min Asbab Nuzul al-Ayat (stories related to the verses of Qur’an, p. 11) and al-Kash-shaf by the Imam al-Kamakhshari (part 2, pp. 518, 519). He reiterates the same story and the same words of Muhammad. Thus, the incident is in vogue among all Muslim scholars, and the story and the dialogue between Muhammad and the Jews is well-known.

We have mentioned what the Baydawi, Jalalan, Zamakhshari, Suyuti, and ibn ’Abbas have said. We do not know (among the ancient scholars) any who are more famous than these. Concerning lighting, Muhammad affirms that it is an angel like the thunder and like Gabriel and Michael.

On page 230 of the above references, Suyuti alludes to it. Also on page 68 of part 4 of the "Itqan", the Suyuti records for us the names of the angels, which are: "Gabriel, Michael, Harut, Marut, the Thunder and the Lightning (He said) that the lightning has four faces."

The Suyuti listed all these under the sub-title, "The names of God’s Angels". He also indicated that Muhammad said that the lightning is the tail end of an angel whose name is Rafael (refer to part 4, p. 230 of the Itqan).

Troubles you say: Out of curiosity, Is Jalalan a muslim scholar?

Starjade says: Why would they need to be Muslim is a scientist not able to speak unless he is Muslim. Hell even when Mad Muhammad spoke he spoke lunacy.

We have mentioned what the Baydawi, Jalalan, Zamakhshari, Suyuti, and ibn ’Abbas have said. We do not know (among the ancient scholars) any who are more famous than these.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Starjade:
quote:

Originally posted by Starjade:
So Mad Muhammad was not any scientist was he and for those of you who do not know about the Thunder and lightening thingy have a good laugh at this.

The Phenomena of Thunder and Lightning
It is common knowledge, as scientists teach, that thunder is a sound caused by the impact between electrical charges found in the clouds.

Yet Muhammad, the prophet of Muslims, has a different opinion in this matter. He claims that the thunder and the lightning are two of God’s angels—exactly like Gabriel!
In the Qur’an there is a chapter under the title of "Thunder" in which it is recorded that the thunder praises God. We might think that it does not mean that literally because thunder is not a living being—although, spiritually speaking, all of nature glorifies God.

The expounders of the Qur’an and its chief scholars, however, insist that Muhammad said that the thunder is an angel exactly like the angel Gabriel. In his commentary (p. 329), the Baydawi comments on verse 13 of chapter of the Thunder,

"Ibn ’Abbas asked the apostle of God about the thunder. He told him, ‘It is an angel who is in charge of the cloud, who (carries) with him swindles of fire by which he drives the clouds."’

In the commentary of the Jalalan (p. 206), we read about this verse:
"The thunder is an angel in charge of the clouds to drive them."

Not only ibn ’Abbas asked Muhammad about the essence of the thunder, but the Jews did too. In the book, "al-Itqan" by Suyuti (part 4, p. 230), we read the following dialogue:
"On the authority of Ibn ’Abbas, he said the Jews came to the prophet (peace be upon him) and said, ‘Tell us about the thunder. What is it?’ He told them:

‘It is one of God’s angels in charge of the clouds. He carries in his hand a swindle of fire by which he pricks the clouds to drive them to where God has ordered them.’ They said to him, ‘What is this sound that we hear?’ He said: ‘(It is) his voice (The angel’s voice)."’

The same incident—the question of the Jews and Muhammad’s answer are mentioned by most scholars. Refer, for instance, to al-Sahih al-Musnad Min Asbab Nuzul al-Ayat (stories related to the verses of Qur’an, p. 11) and al-Kash-shaf by the Imam al-Kamakhshari (part 2, pp. 518, 519). He reiterates the same story and the same words of Muhammad. Thus, the incident is in vogue among all Muslim scholars, and the story and the dialogue between Muhammad and the Jews is well-known.

We have mentioned what the Baydawi, Jalalan, Zamakhshari, Suyuti, and ibn ’Abbas have said. We do not know (among the ancient scholars) any who are more famous than these. Concerning lighting, Muhammad affirms that it is an angel like the thunder and like Gabriel and Michael.

On page 230 of the above references, Suyuti alludes to it. Also on page 68 of part 4 of the "Itqan", the Suyuti records for us the names of the angels, which are: "Gabriel, Michael, Harut, Marut, the Thunder and the Lightning (He said) that the lightning has four faces."

The Suyuti listed all these under the sub-title, "The names of God’s Angels". He also indicated that Muhammad said that the lightning is the tail end of an angel whose name is Rafael (refer to part 4, p. 230 of the Itqan).

Troubles you say: Out of curiosity, Is Jalalan a muslim scholar?

Starjade says: Why would they need to be Muslim is a scientist not able to speak unless he is Muslim. Hell even when Mad Muhammad spoke he spoke lunacy.

We have mentioned what the Baydawi, Jalalan, Zamakhshari, Suyuti, and ibn ’Abbas have said. We do not know (among the ancient scholars) any who are more famous than these.

Star4jade says: So then troubles exactly where do you think thunder and lightening comes from.? Even a child in any western school is more the scientist than mad Muhammad.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Starjade:
Mahi was a most religiously knowledgeable man I have ever met apart from myself. You would be privalaged to meet him.

Of course in his wisdom he did not mention that I can recall the Sura 4:82. Mahi knew I would have eaten Islam alive with my God given Revelations. In fact he knew I could eat Islam for breakfast even then. Still can as is very clear.

---

Forget not the Katchup

quote:

---

Originally posted by Starjade:
Whats this for all your talk you do not know the answer as to which came first the Chicken or the Egg.

It was neither the Cock came first

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Starjade:

Starjade says:

*No the scholar who originally found that error in the Koran used those words. Those were his views.

**I say it is an error simply because the magicians were never under any threat by the Pharaoh it only makes that claim in the Koran **not in the original Old testament** where that ****source of data comes*** from.

***Yet in the Old Testament it says .....

****cutting off of the hands and feet on opposite sides and then crucifying the body. That form of punishment is Islamic as any Muslim knows. That punishment is still practiced to this very day. But it was not practiced by the Egyptions and those magicians were not killed or threatened with death.

*****It only makes that claim in the Koran. And in my own view a crucifixion is an impaling of a body onto anything.

---

Hi,

Starjade, note:
IF there was ONE mistake in the Quran, then I would doubt the words of the Holy Quran, and think again deeply about my faith.
I believe that Islam and the Quran is so perfect that ONE imperfection would imbalance this perfect balanace of the truth, and will become lost like all the other religion we have.

From my understanding of what you wrote, I summerize:

*that "scholar" clearly is in the wrong, so therefore, whatever else s/he says I will denounce it, as If such a scholar makes such mistakes, s/he is not worthy being called a scholar of anything. So from now one I dont want to hear anything about this "scholar "please.

**it seems that you too have agreed that crucify means punishment [it can mean also putting people on the cross], as you did not mention "cross" up there, you said "crucifying " which i take as "punishing them"

***now we have established what the word "crucify" can mean, and that "scholar" is in clear wrong...... at first it was the "cross" that was the "mistake" in the Holy Quran...
but now you are claiming the whole event is "wrong"...

****Ok, lets assume it is "wrong", on the basis what i said above...if the Quran has one verse to be "wrong" then we can say that the Quran is a "fake" or a "lie"... and you win your argument!

*****But on the other hand I say that this event was TRUE! but you claim it is WRONG because in the ***OLD TESTAMENT*** it say something else....

******well...We have come to another debate here:

It seems the only evidence you have to prove that the Quran has "500 mistakes" is the *** OLD TESTAMENT***!

******** What if this ***OLD TESTIMENT *** is not telling the truth, what if this book was a lie, just like the scholar, i say that if there is ONE mistake in the Old Testiment, then I will denounce the WHOLE Old Testiment....and any argument you put forward with evidence from this ***OLD TESTIMENT*** I would not consider it!

So I ask you now:

*If I am able to prove and show you ONE mistake in the ***Old Testiment*** will you accept that the whole testiment is a lie, and based on falsehood.

**Therefore thos "500 mistakes" based on the Old testiment automatically become void!

[***If it was only the above verse that were based on Old Testiment, then at least I would prove to you that you got the 1st one wrong, and we will have 499 more to go!]

[ Edited for Typos ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Starjade:
Snoozing your dreaming the earth is not shaped like an egg at all. Eggs have one fat end for the babe to sit in and a thin end at the top for the head.

The Earth looks nothing like an egg.

I have seen this Planet from Outer space whiles astral travelling and it looked more round to me. Its blue ness just staggers you.

Hey which came first the Chicken or the Egg. I know the answer but do you.?

---

Funny, for a person used to astral travelling, I would have thought you'd seen all different types of eggs by now.

quote:

---

Originally posted by newcomer:
Looks like it’s a slow season at Blackpool this year!

For those of you who don’t know Blackpool was/is a famous seaside resort where day-trippers used to go to enjoy the funfair, walk along the beach and the pier, and go ballroom dancing. It also had famous “holiday camps” were workers and their families went to be entertained by the “Redcoats” who would tell the most banal jokes!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Starjade:
OH and be sure Ben I am correct and I note you do not dispute that fact nor cannot dispute that fact. In fact no Muslim can so I suggest you go tell your Imam about Starjade and get him online then you shall see with your own eyes Islam has bitten the Dust and not even your Imams can dispute that fact. [b]

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You have an incorrect assumption that they will actually tell their Imam about you. You are in an Egyptian forum so a majority of us are Egyptian, not all but most. Egyptians are lazy, if not the laziest people on earth so you wont get them to move unless you press the right buttons which only another Arab knows how. Period.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Starjade:
[B]
Be the wise never to underestimate me. I do know what I am talking about.

---

Yeah to a limit. I don’t doubt that you know about the religion theologically but I doubt you know a Muslim and moreover you do not know an Imam. You can huff and puff all you want but your attitude speaks louder than your words. Through your words it is obvious to any Arab Christian that you don’t know an Imam.

I understand that you are from blackpool, England or something? I am not to sure.
I will go so far to assume that you are definitely not Middle Eastern and have little idea the culture that is there. So hence if you can’t understand the laws and rules that are present there how can you *know an Imam* let alone beat him if you don’t understand the Middle Eastern and Muslim culture?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Starjade:
Ben Elias you said: Ill admit that some of her analysis of Islam is incorrect but this is between me and her alone.

Starjade the Lord King Starjade is more of a man than you could ever dream to be. God chose me not you for I was worthy and you were not. So cut out the sarcasm insults of calling me she sarcasm is only clever when I do it. As you brag the brag that some of my statements are not correct then why not back your mouth up and prove that so we can all see if you brag the brag with a truth or as we expect yet another lie. Deception is the Mother word of Islam.
[/b]

---

I have proven you wrong. Any Arab Christian can tell you the exactly same thing that I have. I gave you my reasoning but you haven’t responded to it yet. Even if you get an Imam online it is rather futile to debate him if you do not have a grasp of the Arabic language and he will play games with you. I do apologize however, I sincerely thought you were a girl because of your name.

Speaking of the ‘Mother word of Islam’ you are incorrect again. Deceit is only a part of the tools used by – what do you know – the Imams to control the people. The Mother word of Islam is fear.

Look at the religion of Islam, it is built on fear. If you don’t kill him who is blasphemed the prophet you will go to hell. If you don’t honor kill your daughter you will have shame on the family (Muslim and Middle Eastern culture). If you don’t fight what is prescribed for you then you will be punished. If you speak out against Islam it is an instant ticket to prison or death (Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt) etc. If you leave the religion of Islam you have the right to be a walking bull’s-eye.

Deceit is something that Mohammed was good at, however he used it to cull people into his cult. IE: If you fight for Allah (gihad) you will get 70 beautiful woman and what’s written in 52.24 in Arabic. The deceit is woven through the Koran. However, you will be surprised how many people simply ignore it because of the fear of the consequences of not believing the deceit that Mohammed spoke.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Starjade:

Ben Elias you said:
However, wasn't she responding to my post? Hence since you have left my post alone there is nothing but to conclude that you agree to my comment about 4.82. If I am wrong, prove me wrong but if you can't then leave Islam immediately and find something else.
Starjade says: I was goaded to challenge Islam and I did and Islam still bites the Dust today. That challenge has not gone away so I will not be leaving Islam alone as I am demanding an account from its blasphemous followers. Deal with that and save us all some Time and get your imams online. They know more than you will and I do so love to test my religious knowledge and Power. Oh and I did reply to some of your posts. You should have patience.

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Good luck with your challenge against Islam. I do understand that not every post every puts up people can answer but this was directed at Ben Elias and so I have answered it.

Since you believe that God choose you to be worthy to answer the Islamic posts feel free to answer my views of Islam too. This should be easy since you think I have no clue.

I am only going to ask you once. Do you believe that what Susan wrote about verse 79.30 about the egg shaped earth is correct?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troubles101:
Newcomer

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ben_elias:
Humanized, Kamal211,

I am only going to ask you once. Do you believe that what Susan wrote about verse 79.30 about the egg shaped earth is correct?

God bless,
Benjamin Elias
zaki_boxing@yahoo.com

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No.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snoozin:
I've seen different translations, but some state it means *egg-shaped.*

It's Sura 79:30

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*Sura 79:30 : " (30. And after that He spread the earth,)
[ http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=79&tid=56944 ]

It is clear the shape of the Earth is not being described here?
Is it???

Troubles you said: you said:
I don't get it is Jalalan a scientist or a muslim scholar? Do you even know?

Starjade says: I thought your bragged for islam so then why do you not know. Why do Muslims not explain these things to you. Must I tell you everything.

JALALAN, AL- refers to the "two Jalals", two commentaries of the Qur'an. The first half of Tafsir 'l-Jalalain was made by Shaikh Jalaluddin Muhammad b. Ahmad al-Mahili (d. AH 864) and the rest by Jalaluddin Abur'rahman b. Abi Bakr as-Suyuti (d. AH 911). SUYUTI, AS- Jalaluddin Abur'rahman b. Abi Bakr as-Suyuti (d. AH 911). One of the commentators of the al-Jalalan.

He was a prolific writer and covered areas like history, grammer, rhetoric, dogma, practical theology, medicine, anatomy, etc. His famous works include Itqan, an explanatory work of the Qur'an and the "History of the Temple of Jerusalem". ALALAN, AL-

So you know what idolising Muslims are like they like to trust the words of scholarly men.

For those of you who don’t know Blackpool was/is a famous seaside resort where day-trippers used to go to enjoy the funfair, walk along the beach and the pier, and go ballroom dancing. It also had famous “holiday camps” were workers and their families went to be entertained by the “Redcoats” who would tell the most banal jokes!

Starjade says: Well Kamal I have met many Muslims who said the same thing and when I placed before them a list of errors that did exist in the Koran some converted and others just shirked away and buried their heads in the sand leaving just one orifice left to talk out of.

Kamal you said:
I believe that Islam and the Quran is so perfect that ONE imperfection would imbalance this perfect balanace of the truth, and will become lost like all the other religion we have.

Starjade says: The Sura 4:82 states if just one error is found in the Koran then that is proof the Koran did not come from God. Note I have listed many more than just one error to be sure the point was put across.

Kamal you said: From my understanding of what you wrote, I summerize:
*that "scholar" clearly is in the wrong, so therefore, whatever else s/he says I will denounce it, as If such a scholar makes such mistakes, s/he is not worthy being called a scholar of anything. So from now one I dont want to hear anything about this "scholar "please.

Starjade says: That is the most pathetic shirk I have ever heard. Perhaps you do not know but the words of the Koran are said to have come from the mouth of Muhammad as told to him by the Angel Gabriel so these errors are mad Muhammads errors not just his writers. They are quoting him.

Kamal you said:
**it seems that you too have agreed that crucify means punishment [it can mean also putting people on the cross], as you did not mention "cross" up there, you said "crucifying " which i take as "punishing them" ***now we have established what the word "crucify" can mean, and that "scholar" is in clear wrong...... at first it was the "cross" that was the "mistake" in the Holy Quran...but now you are claiming the whole event is "wrong"...

Starjade says: Crucifixion in anyones eyes as in understanding is the impaling of a body to something else. This can be cross or tree or stake or wall. But the point was in the Old Testament where that data comes from as a source those Magicians were not under any threat of death by crucifixion or any other means. It only makes that claim in the Koran which is wrong and invented and by a Muslim who used an islamic form of Punishment when Islam was not even born in those days. Those Egyptians did not practice that form of punishment only Muslims do that.

There are two Christian Bibles and two varying claims as to how this character Jesus was sup[posed to have died. One account is he died on a cross which is Roman Christian by the way. The other account is that Jesus died on a tree. To explain all this death and resurrection would take time and would need for me to make you aware of a fruit that grows upon the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden and was known as the Sacred Key to Heaven and Hell and often referred to as the Christ. But I think that would all be too deep for you.

Kamal you said:
****Ok, lets assume it is "wrong", on the basis what i said above...if the Quran has one verse to be "wrong" then we can say that the Quran is a "fake" or a "lie"... and you win your argument!

Starjade says: The Koran is fabricated and it does not come from God and the Koran admits that. It is only you muslims claiming otherwise. The Sura 4:82 states if just one error is found in the Koran then that is the proof the Koran did not come from God so the matter as you well know has already been proven. There was no argument to that fact as it is a foregone conclusion.

Kamal you said:
*****But on the other hand I say that this event was TRUE! but you claim it is WRONG because in the ***OLD TESTAMENT*** it say something else....
******well...We have come to another debate here:
It seems the only evidence you have to prove that the Quran has "500 mistakes" is the *** OLD TESTAMENT***!

Starjade says: That is a pitiful excuse. I recall pointing out about thunder and lightening and how Muhammad believes the sun sets in a pool of muddy water and I spoke about Jinns having star stuff thrown at them and how the Koran says angles make that thunder and lightening and make fires to create clouds and other silly stuff that is written in the Koran not the Old Testament so that excuse is far too week trying to reject the Old Testament that Muslims ignore anyway until they want to claim mad Muhammad as being that Prophet and 11 Chapters of the Koran happily writing about the new Testament.

So whiles you try and witter an excuse that Muslims don’t heed the Old Testament that is a cheap shirk. I have shown errors in the Koran that does not even get mentioned in the Old Testament and you chose just one error that was already argued by Islamic cholars who failed just as you will whiles you attempt to walk that path. I already see where you are going to. Muslims are so predictable.

Kamal you said:
******** What if this ***OLD TESTIMENT *** is not telling the truth, what if this book was a lie, just like the scholar, i say that if there is ONE mistake in the Old Testiment, then I will denounce the WHOLE Old Testiment....and any argument you put forward with evidence from this ***OLD TESTIMENT*** I would not consider it!

Starjade says: I am not a Jew or Christian and I do not give a toss about the Old or new Testaments. The fact is there is the law of Deuteronomy and out of the ld Testament that is all I need. Only the Koran brags that it is the word of God. A lie that is not true as the Sura 4:82 proves along with that list of many errors you already have. Everyone knows the Old and New Testaments were written by man. Nobody claimed otherwise. The Old testament is just a history book of the jews and the new Testament is just other grunts being impatient to wait for that Prophesied Prophet so they invented their own and mad Muhammad followed in that same suit. Nobody gives a toss about the Bible here for we are speaking about the Koran.

You attempt to sidetrack those conversations to point out how Muslims believe the Koran supercedes the Old Testament I have heard that wimp excuse often before so you shall see similar answers. Of course you do not have a Koran without that Old Testament data because Mad Muhammad who was an Arab a descendant of Ishmael and still bound by Old Testament law has in fact used the prophecy of Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 to claim he was that specific prophet then he used Isaiah to try and authenticate his claim and then the Angel Gabrioel.
All Charactors taken from the Old Testament and the New Testament. Without the Old and New Testament where the origin of that data comes from then Mad Muhammad had no claims and you would not have a cheap copy cat version you call the Koran which is most badly worded with outrageous lies.

Kamal you said:
So I ask you now:
*If I am able to prove and show you ONE mistake in the ***Old Testiment***will you accept that the whole testiment is a lie, and based on falsehood. **Therefore thos "500 mistakes" based on the Old testiment automatically become void!

Starjade says: I can show you errors in both the Old and new Testament and I bet my fact finding would be more detailed then yours. The Old and New testament was re written by Roman Christians and all Bibles with a new Testament in it was written by Roman Christians and published by them as they attempted to proclaim Jesus as being that specific Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up.

I hesitate a minute and and would like to slap you on the head so I know you are paying attention but you do know that the very Prophet that mad Muhammad has proclaimed himself to being is that very specific prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. Muhammad and Jesus are both claiming themselves to being that specific Prophet whiles we take the piss on the side because Mad Muhammad believed in Jesus and 11 Chapters of the Koran glorify Jesus and yet jesus has said in the New Testament that he was that prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. As authenticated of course by the Arch Angel Gabriel that Luke mentioned. Try and explain that error away. God only promised to raise up one Prophet not two. Mad Muhammad and Jesus are both claiming they are that specific Prophet.

The Old testament does not have a Sura 4:42 claus. Only the Koran has that and it is the only religion to issue such an open challenge and it lies when it says that challenge of the Sura 4:82 has lasted for 1400 years for be sure too many errors exist for that to be so and it is clear deception and lies have been used as Propaganda to cause people not to realize just how untrue the Koran is.

Starjade says: I never assume anything. A Muslim is a Muslim is a Muslim in my eyes. Be sure their imams are watching and be sure some Muslims will go and yack off or complain or beg for help of their imam. But trust me their Imams are too afraid to come online and face me.

I wanted those Muslims who spoke to those imams to see that shirk also. Be sure Ben I know how to press all the right buttons to spark Muslims off. Just saysing Sura 4:82 raises their eyebrows and be sure I can back my mouth up all the way. But they do not realize in their brainwashed delusions that Islam just cannot be defended from my God given revelations. It does dawn on them eventually but often it takes a whiles for a penny to drop.

I thought most Egyptians nowadays were in fact Arabs the descendants of Ishmael. It is the fault of the Arabs that the Koran came into being. It is the Arabs Golden Calf. That is why I used the Korans words and caused those Muslims to eat that Dust. Moses ground down the Golden Calf and caused those Hebrews to eat its dust. Well I cause Muslims to bite the Dust. It is to me a subtle joke that few realize when I say islam has bitten the Dust.

So how come you Egyptians don’t know your own history that well then. You should know it was Nefure Hatshepsut who adopted Moses and she was not at that Time the Pharaohs wife and her father was not at that Time a ruling Pharaoh. Of course Nefure Hatshepsut got her father to crown Moses as prince regent and Moses would have been pharaoh but he killed an Egyptian and had to do a runner. Nefure hateshepsut had then to marry or lose the throne to another family. She was not married before and Moses was around 40 when he ran off wasn’t he.

Ben Elias you say:
Yeah to a limit. I don’t doubt that you know about the religion theologically but I doubt you know a Muslim and moreover you do not know an Imam. You can huff and puff all you want but your attitude speaks louder than your words. Through your words it is obvious to any Arab Christian that you don’t know an Imam.

I understand that you are from blackpool, England or something? I am not to sure.

Starjade says: I know imams off the Internet. The conversations were brief as I am not known for being a man with any patience and few Muslims dare to respond to the Challenge of the sura 4:82. Imams certainly cannot reply any more than an ordinary Muslim in the street. I do not theorise about religion. I point out religious laws and Prophecies and I stay with facts. All Muslims and Christians bite the Dust I am phenomenal. My attitude goads muslims to respond to the Sura 4:82. They just feel foolishly that they can defend their religion. They soon find out they cannot and then they go all bitter.

Ben Elias I was first born in Blackpool but I also was born outside this planet and the Living God is my father. I do not expect you to understand or believe but here is a link to my Journey beyond the grave. Read that and you can see whay I say I am an Alien Resident. journey beyond the grave http://www.geocities.com/end_of_times/chapterone.htm

ben Elias you said:
I will go so far to assume that you are definitely not Middle Eastern and have little idea the culture that is there. So hence if you can’t understand the laws and rules that are present there how can you *know an Imam* let alone beat him if you don’t understand the Middle Eastern and Muslim culture?

Starjade says: Trust me Ben I do get about and I was taught the religion of islam by Islamic experts who knew exactly what I was about and intended to do. They taught me all about Islam and its history and also the way a Muslim mind thinks. They also taught me Islamic law as they knew I was going to be speaking with Muslims. This is why I always invoke Islamic law when I do speak with Muslims that give me a right to speak and them a right to reply. So save your assumptions.

Besides I have no interest in Muslims as they are guilty of Blasphemy worshipping a false prophet and a false God of that false prophet’s imagination. Religious law says they must be stoned to death so I am silent to earthquakes that can do that task. Tsk tsk tsk.

No I have no interest in Islam. It is the Arabs the descendants of Ishmael that I had an interest in and as many converted foolishly to Islam then it was inevitable I would learn about that religion and as can be plainly seen by the Sura 4:82 I learn well don’t I. Now I can convert Muslims specifically Arabic Muslims. Islamic law does that conversion of course and the words of the Koran Sura 4:82.

Ben Elias you think an Imam is all that. Well then go find one get them online. Then we shall see Starjade shine like a Star and we shall see islam bite the Dust. My Email is on the End of Times web site if I got barred and so there is always a point of contact. I already have challenged the whole of islam and I sure as Hell have no intention of backing down. So in my deserved confidence I am challenging the whole of Islam and chicken legged imams belong in that assortment of lost souls don’t they.

No Muslim and I mean no Muslim can defend the Koran or the religion of islam or the word of Muhammad against the God given revelations of the much loved Doomsday prophet Starjade. That proof of that is already sitting on these pages and many others like them around the world.

Go get your Imams bring the whole of islam and all of its followers to this debate and watch as they all bite the Dust. I am most formidable and to me an Imam is a novice. Hey the Christians Pope who recently died went into a panic when he heard of me. He had some letters of mine that I had sent to the Jews proving who I was and he ordered security to go up around the Vatican and wanted to retire.

Poor fing it must have been a shock to see how easy I could prove jesus was a fraud. But that is another story. Trust me Ben Elias I have had conversations with some very hard core religiously expert people and they could not dispute my words and neither can you or any Muslim Imam or not.

If I was in a court of Islamic law I would still walk free not guilty of any crime of Blasphemy because Islamic law does give me that right to speak and forces all Muslims to reject the Koran and the word of Muhammad no matter how deeply a Muslim may believe.

There will be no death penalty placed on me but Muslims worship two false prophets jesus and Muhammad and they all worship a false God of a false prophets imagination and that makes them guilty of Blasphemy so I am the one who will be warning of death penalties and I can stone entire continents to death.

Ben Elias you said;
I have proven you wrong.

Starjade says: Oh no you haven’t. I demand you point out exactly how for we all missed it. What have you convinced yourself of now.

Ben Elias you said;
Any Arab Christian can tell you the exactly same thing that I have. I gave you my reasoning but you haven’t responded to it yet. Even if you get an Imam online it is rather futile to debate him if you do not have a grasp of the Arabic language and he will play games with you. I do apologize however, I sincerely thought you were a girl because of your name.

Starjade says: I must have missed this post you speak of Ben. Can you link me to it. I promise I will respond. I know my words are true and I know my own power over islam is strong and that I can and always do and I am able to back up my mouth and all who do stand against me always bite the Dust. I can tell you things about Arabic that will shut that imams face.

Ben Elias you said:
Speaking of the ‘Mother word of Islam’ you are incorrect again. Deceit is only a part of the tools used by – what do you know – the Imams to control the people. The Mother word of Islam is fear.

Starjade says: yes I also agree with you they must follow and believe Islam or die. I know all the horror stories also.

Ben Elias you said;
Look at the religion of Islam, it is built on fear. If you don’t kill him who is blasphemed the prophet you will go to hell. If you don’t honor kill your daughter you will have shame on the family (Muslim and Middle Eastern culture). If you don’t fight what is prescribed for you then you will be punished. If you speak out against Islam it is an instant ticket to prison or death (Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt) etc. If you leave the religion of Islam you have the right to be a walking bull’s-eye.

Starjade says: yes these propaganda death threats are taken seriously as well. But then those who speak those words are religiously ignorant grunts. Hat do you think they can do when faced with Islamic law before the eyes of the congregations where then that Islamic law states they must reject what is found not to be true and accept what is found to be true. Get those grunts online as I want to laugh at there reaction. Islamic law controls them also.

How would it look if they the enforcers of Islamic law then shirk Islamic law when faced with my God given Revelations and the Sura 4:82 of the Koran. Can they openly defy Islamic law and the words of the Koran. Isnt that then going to be punishable by death.

If you cut the head off a Demon then that demon will bother you no more. Consider their predicament Ben Elias. And realize that I will be the one those deluded souls will be facing. I am no ordinary man.

Ben Elias you said:
Deceit is something that Mohammed was good at, however he used it to cull people into his cult. IE: If you fight for Allah (gihad) you will get 70 beautiful woman and what’s written in 52.24 in Arabic. The deceit is woven through the Koran. However, you will be surprised how many people simply ignore it because of the fear of the consequences of not believing the deceit that Mohammed spoke.

Starjade says: yes I also know of the brag of rewards in heaven unfortunately for the Muslim that brag is empty when the Sura 4:82 proves the Koran does not come from God making the word of Muhammad to be untrue proving he is a liar and a fraud. So all of his empty lies and promises bite the dust.

My challenge to the followers of islam has some very serious consequences all around. And worse for them is that according to the religious law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 I can be proven by that law to be established as a prophet who does have a provable connection to the Living God and I do not back down from that statement either as the law establishes my word is true. So no ordinary man condemns islam. To me they must hearken.

All Arabs are descendants of Ishmael and are the first born of Abraham and so they are bound by the Deuteronomy laws of Moses. It was the Arabs who fabricated the Koran just as the descendants of Israel fabricated a Golden Calf. I can convert Arabic Muslims using Islamic law and so I find this whole converting of islam most easy. It may create a great gnashing of teeth but I do have my reasons and God given agendas.

Trust me islam bit the Dust years ago. But they do not like that message getting around. Test me test me go get an Islamic imam online. It is most entertaining they do get into such a flap

Ben Elias you said;
Good luck with your challenge against Islam. I do understand that not every post every puts up people can answer but this was directed at Ben Elias and so I have answered it.

Starjade says: Thankyou for the wish of Luck Ben but I prefer the sound religious and also those Islamic laws and the Sura 4:82 that backs my mouth up without leaving anything to chance and trust me always Muslims bite the Dust.

Ben Elias you said:
Since you believe that God choose you to be worthy to answer the Islamic posts feel free to answer my views of Islam too. This should be easy since you think I have no clue.

Starjade says: I have been reading some of your writings Ben and I liked the way you presented your arguments. Very true Islam needs a good shake up and it all comes in the unexpected name of Starjade. It is not that I think you do not know the topic of your subject. But that you could never have foreseen the arrival of Starjade. I come from a new angle and Muslims themselves dared to challenge me to challenge them.

Before you had heard of me did you know of the Islamic law and the sura 4:82 that forces Muslims to debate the Koran and Mad Muhammad and forces all muslims to convert and proves that the Koran does not come from God showing Muhammad is a liar and a fraud. Well you know those Muslims did not expect that either. They created a whole range of shirk deceptions to escape this and that question but when Islamic law is quoted and Sura 4:82 is quoted and a whole list of errors in the Koran are shown. Trust me Muslims cannot respond. They are powerless.

They know it and they sure know I know it. Well now nobody expected that did they and to this very day many Islamic scholars have just bitten the Dust. They are defenseless. And I openly continue to challenge them.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Starjade:
Starjade says:
I have seen all kinds of eggs. And I also often make eggzamples of the blasphemous religious congregations. They even have easter eggs for to commemorate the Time they made an Eggzample out of Jesus.

---

Starjade, I apologize for making fun of you. I have come to truly believe you suffer from severe mental health issues just as a close friend of mine does. I am not being mean or condescending by saying that.

I cared for my friend very much. She suffered from serious delusions of persecution, while I think yours tend toward grandeur instead. However, she was pushed to the edge by people taunting her at work, and she came to the office one day armed with a knife, intending to kill our boss. She (thank God) did not hurt anyone, but the experience was horrific for me.

Snoozing you said: I cared for my friend very much. She suffered from serious delusions of persecution, while I think yours tend toward grandeur instead. However, she was pushed to the edge by people taunting her at work, and she came to the office one day armed with a knife, intending to kill our boss. She (thank God) did not hurt anyone, but the experience was horrific for me.
I therefore am not going to engage you in any written dialogue here. I do wish you the best.

Starjade says: You are the fool who listen to the words of a Mad man called Muhammad so I see that false idolisation and glorification and you worship a religion so easily proven to be false and fabricated and yet you have a gall to call me mad.

Well before you blabberwock your opinions why not try and back your mouth up and try and prove I am not who I am proven by religious law to be. But be warned many religious experts from all religions tried and failed just as you will.

It should already be clear I am someone well versed and well able to back my mouth up on all my claims.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Starjade:
Snoozing you said:
Starjade, I apologize for making fun of you. I have come to truly believe you suffer from severe mental health issues just as a close friend of mine does. I am not being mean or condescending by saying that.

---

At first I thought this Starjade had a good argument and was talking with some "misunderstood" knowledge that needed to be corrected.

But I am starting to believe Susie that this guy might seriouly be dis-abled....
=======

Just by what he said hinslef, I'll show how he conradicts himself:

But first. what is up with you and the word “shirk” do u even know what it means?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Starjade:
Starjade says: Well Kamal … and others just ***shirked*** away and ……
Starjade says: That is the most pathetic **shirk** I have ever heard…
……excuse that Muslims don’t heed the Old Testament that is a cheap ***shirk***…..

---

Here starjade uses the OLD TESTAMENT as his evidence………

quote:

---

Originally posted by Starjade:
Starjade says: But the point was in the Old Testament where that data comes from as a source those Magicians were not under any threat of death by crucifixion or any other means. …
There are two Christian Bibles and two varying claims as to how this character Jesus was sup[posed to have died. One account is he died on a cross which is Roman Christian by the way. The other account is that Jesus died on a tree…
So whiles you try and witter an I have shown errors in the Koran that does not even get mentioned in the Old Testament and ……

---

Then amazingly here, he disregards the OLD TESTAMENT…….
So first he uses an item as his source of evidence to prove something is a lie [ i.e the Quran] then he goes on to mention that the evidence itself is a lie…..
So basically, he is using a “lie” to prove something else that is a “lie”?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Starjade:
Starjade says: I can show you errors in both the Old and new Testament and I bet my fact finding would be more detailed then yours. ……
Starjade says:…………..I do not give a toss about the Old or new Testaments. The fact is there is the law of Deuteronomy and out of the Old Testament that is all I need. …………. Everyone knows the Old and New Testaments were written by man.
…..The Old testament is just a history book of the jews and the new Testament is just other grunts being impatient to wait for that Prophesied Prophet …….
…. Muhammad who was an Arab a descendant of Ishmael and still bound by Old Testament law has in fact used the prophecy of Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 to claim he was that specific prophet then he used Isaiah to try and authenticate his claim and then the Angel Gabrioel.

---

I think at this point Starjade’s drugs started to wear out…..im lost to what he meant here…….

quote:

---

Originally posted by Starjade:

All Charactors taken from the Old Testament and the New Testament. Without the Old and New Testament where the origin of that data comes from …….

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Starjade:

The Old testament does not have a Sura 4:42 claus. Only the Koran has that and it is the only religion to issue such an open challenge…..

---

Who are you more likely to trust?

A liar telling you the truth or
A truthful person telling you the truth….

[ie. Would you believe in a book that has some lies and some truth,
or a book that is 100% truth ]

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted -Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs"

quote:

---

Originally posted by kafir4ever:
Have we pondered the "scientific facts of the Quran"? quite a bit. And please do not take offense when I say to you that I'm entirely unimpressed. In fact, it is quite easy to demonstrate that the Quran is not a science manual. For instance:

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted -Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs"

I'm not sure if you are married or single or if you have studied anatomy but I can tell you that semen does not come from "between the backbone and the ribs" That is where the kidneys are located. Semen comes from ANOTHER AREA, I'm sure that you probably know this. Let me ask you, is the Quran correct here or is it wrong?

---

Another Area!!!! is it a secret ?....meh

[6.25] And of them is he who hearkens to you, and We have cast veils over their hearts lest they understand it and a heaviness into their ears; and even if they see every sign they will not believe in it; so much so that when they come to you they only dispute with you; those who disbelieve say: This is naught but the stories of the ancients.

Starjade says: Clearly you as a muslim are the ones disabled and unabled to reply solid answers to the challenge of the Sura 4:82 I COULD HAVE TOLD YOU THAT IN THE BEGINNINGS IN FACT I MOST PROBERBLY DID.

quote: Originally posted by Starjade:
Starjade says: Well Kamal … and others just ***shirked*** away and …… Starjade says: That is the most pathetic**shirk** I have ever heard………excuse that Muslims don’t heed the Old Testament that is a cheap ***shirk***…..

Kamal you claimed:
Here starjade uses the OLD TESTAMENT as his evidence………

Starjade says: Perhaps in your ignorance you forget Mad Muhammad was a descendant of Ishmael the first born of Abraham and is bound by the laws of Moses as all Arabs are whether they believe that or not. Second point I do not use the Old Testament as evidence just some quotes existing in it. Do not forget whiles you invent your excuses that the fabricated Koran is based on the Old Testament Prophecy so you are going into deep waters where you are going to drown.
quote:

Originally posted by Starjade:
Starjade says: But the point was in the Old Testament where that data comes from as a source those Magicians were not under any threat of death by crucifixion or any other means.
…
There are two Christian Bibles and two varying claims as to how this character Jesus was sup[posed to have died. One account is he died on a cross which is Roman Christian by the way. The other account is that Jesus died on a tree…

So whiles you try and witter an I have shown errors in the Koran that does not even get mentioned in the Old Testament and ……
Kamal you claimed: Then amazingly here, he disregards the OLD TESTAMENT…….So first he uses an item as his source of evidence to prove something is a lie [ i.e the Quran] then he goes on to mention that the evidence itself is a lie….. So basically, he is using a “lie” to prove something else that is a “lie”?

Starjade says: Yes the original quote from another scholar is still also correct as the Egyptians did not practice crucifying people in those days nor did they cut off the hands and feet on opposite sides. We did all read that statement and I added even more errors onto those matters which is exactly what I do so be watchful. It is a fact those magicians were not placed under any threat. Mad Muhammad simply forgot the story so invented his own. By the way expert Muslims already argued those points and lost badly. So Starjade is still right and you are making excuses rather than facing the error statements themselves recall if you can that if just one error exists in the Koran then that Koran admits is the proof the Koran did not come from God. There are other errors still waiting.

quote: Originally posted by Starjade:
Starjade says: I can show you errors in both the Old and new Testament and I bet my fact finding would be more detailed then yours. ……
Starjade says: It is a fact I but those are errors in some parts not in the whole book. Whereas in the Koran the Sura 4:82 bstates if just one error exists in the Koran then that is proof the Koran does not come from God which makes Mad Muhammad a liar and a fraud doesn’t it. You delude yourself if you think his lies will help you.

More quotes off Starjade in case you missed the original or cannot read English. Starjade says:…………..I do not give a toss about the Old or new Testaments. The fact is there is the law of Deuteronomy and out of the Old Testament that is all I need. …………. Everyone knows the Old and New Testaments were written by man. …..The Old testament is just a history book of the jews and the new Testament is just other grunts being impatient to wait for that Prophesied Prophet …….…. Muhammad who was an Arab a descendant of Ishmael and still bound by Old Testament law has in fact used the prophecy of Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 to claim he was that specific prophet then he used Isaiah to try and authenticate his claim and then the Angel Gabriel.

Kamal you babbled: I think at this point Starjade’s drugs started to wear out…..im lost to what he meant here…….

Starjade says: We note your ignorance and I apologise for steppi8ng too far in Time in front of your claims. It is caused by my seeing what you are leading to. I have never been known for being a man of any patience.

I am not a Christian Muslim or Jew so I do not give a toss about the Old Testament or the new or the Koran. I would not even waste my Time speaking had Mad Muhammad and Jesus not lied and claimed they were that specific Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up and now that has opened up a can of worms that even Pandora could not put back in the box. The poi8nt by the way is you may not be bound by Old Testament and its laws but Mad Muhammad being a descendant os Abraham was.

quote: Originally posted by Starjade:
All Charactors taken from the Old Testament and the New Testament. Without the Old and New Testament where the origin of that data comes from …….

Kamal you said: …and here…..
Starjade says: Ah is this all too deep for you then. I assumed you had a religious education. The Old Testament is the original source of data all that follow are copying that data. It wasn’t that hard. How old are you.?

quote: Originally posted by Starjade:
The Old testament does not have a Sura 4:42 claus. Only the Koran has that and it is the only religion to issue such an open challenge…..

Kamal you said:
Shouldn’t this be the principle to anything? Who are you more likely to trust? A liar telling you the truth or A truthful person telling you the truth…. [ie. Would you believe in a book that has some lies and some truth, or a book that is 100% truth ]
Starjade says: Trying to get philosophical will not answer to those errors found in the Koran. And you already believe in the Koran that was written by liars and contains so many lies you are now in a flap attempting to excuse yourself away from the task and challenge of the Sura 4:82. As the Old and the new and the Koran all agree on certain text then what is your problem especially as the Old Testament is the origin of that data and so can be checked out. BY the way I used the law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 to prove who I was by religious law and that same law is spoken of also in the new Testament and the Koran. So then according to the law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 you need two or three witnesses to prove a thing is true or not especially in matters of crimes of iniquity and sin.

Now name two witnesses to this angel Gabriel giving Muhammad a good squeeze in the cave until he recited out the words of the Koran. Name two witnesses to Muhammad meeting this angel on the mountain and telling him that he was that Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. Name two or three witnesses who saw Muhammad fly off to heaven and have chats with God. The plain fact according to the laws of Moses Muhammad is proven by that law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 to be a liar and a fraud.

The Sura 4:82 already proves the Koran did not come from God showing Muhammad was a liar and a fraud. The law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 also proves Muhammad is a liar and a fraud as does Jewish and Christian and Islamic history prove those matters.
How pathetic to come online when faced with such a Sura 4:82 challenge and say Oh well the Sura 4:82 principal must be used in all religions not just the Koran. The fact is that such a challenge only exists in the Koran and now you are going to have to face up to that. Not say oh well if the Koran is wrong everything else must be wrong. And continue to argue in that vane escaping the reality that you cannot give an account for the Sura 4:82 challenge and the errors that are proven already to exist in the Koran. Is that so very hard for you to face.

Starjade says: This question of crucifixion was argued by more educated Muslims than you newcomer. http://www.geocities.com/end_of_times/surapge1.html

I leave a lik to some of those conversations as you are all obsessed with just that one particular error whiles ignoring the many many other errors I mention. The cutting off of the hands and feet on opposite sides and then crucifying the body was not practised in Egypt in those Times. That debate on other forums yackled on for some time as Muslims went into denial and the further shock that in the Old Testament where this data originated those Magicians were never placed under any threat. Either way you are stuffed for an excuse and an answer. But to save us all Time I leave that link to smarter Muslims than you as you may need some help and certainly need some pointers.

As your Imamas are still hiding their faces from me then someone needs to give you some advice. Oh and just because a muslim grunt makes a claim that does not make it authentic Muslims have been making false claims ever since mad Muhammad claimed he was given a good squeeze by an angel in a cave one night

Starjade says: we were discussing the Sura 4:82 of the Koran and the staggering amount of errors that exist in the Koran that proves the Koran does not come from God.

I showed a list of scientific errors existing in the Koran. Just one error no matter where it is proves the Koran did not come from God and that fact proves Muhammad was a liar and a fraud. We know from the many scientific errors that are found in the Koran that the Koran is certainly not a science manual and so why it attempted to explain away science with Islamic fantasy is beyond decent explanation.

kafir4ever you said:
"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted -Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs"

Starjade says: Oh so now man is not from God how contradictive and yet another error in the Koran. I have also gone through the Korans claims of conception and creation and as expected the Koran is wrong.

kafir4ever you said:
I'm not sure if you are married or single or if you have studied anatomy but I can tell you that semen does not come from "between the backbone and the ribs" That is where the kidneys are located. Semen comes from another area, I'm sure that you probably know this. Let me ask you, is the Quran correct here or is it wrong?

Starjade says: The Koran is wrong of course about many things.

What was man created from? The very first revelation starts out with providing an ingredient for contradiction:
Proclaim!

In the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, who created -
created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood.

-- Sura 96:1-2
Apart from the fact that "a mere blood clot" is scientifically wrong, let us see what further ideas the Qur'an presents on how God creates human beings.

It is he who has created man from water
-- Sura 25:54
And God has created every living creature from water.
-- Sura 24:45

We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape. -- Sura 15:26
Amongst his signs is this, that he created you from dust. – Sura 30:20

Blood clot? water? clay? dust? The Qur'an doesn't really seem all that sure what God used and seems to imply that He took just anything he could get his hands on. But this is still not all in this confusion:
God createth what He willeth:
When he hath decreed a plan,
He but saith to it, "Be," and it is!
-- Sura 3:47

He just says the word "be" and it is, there is no making a mess with water, clay, blood clots or dust, just a clean "there it is". Right?

Sura 4:82 claims that there is no discrepancy in this Qur'an!
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Campbell/s4c2b.html

[This message has been edited by Starjade (edited 19 August 2005).]

Thank you for your response.

As you have answered my post I shall answer yours. I am not doubting your understanding of the Koran and Islam. You don’t however have an understanding of the background, culture and laws of the same Arabs you condemn.

We both agree logically that the Koran is full of fallacies but my beef is not with people believing a different doctrine full of mistakes but people (including the followers) getting hurt because of that doctrine. Islam is a cult that woos people from all over the world from whatever their previous backgrounds and ideals to then fit with the Arab so that why it is important to understand the Arab and to a lesser degree the Arabic language spoken.

As your knowledge of Muslims and Middle East you are very wrong in many instances where it is obvious to any Arab Christian you don’t understand the Middle Eastern country’s culture let alone ever been there. Let me prove it to you…

quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade

Starjade says: I never assume anything. A Muslim is a Muslim is a Muslim in my eyes. Be sure their imams are watching and be sure some Muslims will go and yack off or complain or beg for help of their imam. But trust me their Imams are too afraid to come online and face me.

---

Not all Muslims are the same, like not all Christians are the same. They all follow the same hateful doctrine and they have many denominations like the Christians (Sunni, Shia, Druze, Aliwisi etc.) but not all Muslim is the same.

The stronger they are in Islam the more dangerous they are. Actually to much surprise, the Muslim who wears Levi jeans, goes to Western concerts and likes to hang out but is extremely well versed in the Koran is more likely to cause damage than the gallabia-wearing Arab that screams as loud as he can in the local mall under normal circumstances.

Not everyone can pick out who is dangerous or not and should not be judged on the size of his beard or how badly he smells but his attitude and actions.

quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade

But trust me their Imams are too afraid to come online and face me.

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You’re still holding on to this idea of an Imam that would come online. You’re in an Egyptian forum so you have got hopes.

quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade

I wanted those Muslims who spoke to those imams to see that shirk also. Be sure Ben I know how to press all the right buttons to spark Muslims off. Just saysing Sura 4:82 raises their eyebrows and be sure I can back my mouth up all the way. But they do not realize in their brainwashed delusions that Islam just cannot be defended from my God given revelations. It does dawn on them eventually but often it takes a whiles for a penny to drop.

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You’re God given revelations is what the Kafirs of the Middle East have known for nearly a Millennium and a half.

quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade

I thought most Egyptians nowadays were in fact Arabs the descendants of Ishmael. It is the fault of the Arabs that the Koran came into being. It is the Arabs Golden Calf. That is why I used the Korans words and caused those Muslims to eat that Dust. Moses ground down the Golden Calf and caused those Hebrews to eat its dust. Well I cause Muslims to bite the Dust. It is to me a subtle joke that few realize when I say islam has bitten the Dust.

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You are incorrect, Egyptians are not the decendents of the Ishmael. Who told you this? The Egyptians are Egyptians from the ancient times where they used to worship Horis and the other 700+ gods. They then converted to Christianity through their own will then the Muslims came and eventually overtime they forced the Christians – the same ones from the Ancient Egypt – to convert to Islam, only the brave, rich and lucky were saved.

Today they are mixed but not descendants from the Arabs from the Arabic Peninsula and this is because of the mixture of Arab with Egyptian because of the Islamic ruling of Egypt throughout the times.

quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade

...is the fault of the Arabs that the Koran came into being.

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You are wrong again. It was Mohammed and most of these ‘Arabs’ did not want to convert. Look at when he was in Mecca for many years, only 70-80 people converted and it was only he started to force people to convert and robbing people that he Koran really started to become into being.

That’s why some of the Koran is cancelled with other parts. Because he used to teach people to never steal, never hurt but when he discovered that robbing people was much more profitable than being honest, then Allah changed his teachings to conform with Mohammed’s income when he needed it.

It wasn’t the Arab nationality that the Koran was brought into use but Mohammed only. He told everyone to join him even Jews so it’s not a nationalistic thing, but a religious brotherhood as it says in the Koran.

Koran 49.10: Believers are but brothers so set things right between your brothers and fear God so that you may find mercy

-It is 'believers' not Arabs.

quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade

Starjade says: I know imams off the Internet. The conversations were brief as I am not known for being a man with any patience and few Muslims dare to respond to the Challenge of the sura 4:82. Imams certainly cannot reply any more than an ordinary Muslim in the street. I do not theorise about religion. I point out religious laws and Prophecies and I stay with facts. All Muslims and Christians bite the Dust I am phenomenal. My attitude goads muslims to respond to the Sura 4:82. They just feel foolishly that they can defend their religion. They soon find out they cannot and then they go all bitter.

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Is this why you think you can beat Imams? Anyone can say that they are Imam’s on the internet but there is a difference in how they argue compared the normal Muslim. I can say that I am an Imam. You could beat them but how do you know that they are really Imams and not some guy?

They are much more knowledgeable and if you don’t speak Arabic then they will really play games with you. Since they don’t use Arabic translation as an excuse with you (maybe they have) then pretty much they are not Imams, Deens etc.

quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade

All Muslims and Christians bite the Dust I am phenomenal.

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I am Coptic Christian. Feel free to prove Coptic Christianity doctrines wrong.

quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade

Starjade says: Trust me Ben I do get about and I was taught the religion of islam by Islamic experts who knew exactly what I was about and intended to do. They taught me all about Islam and its history and also the way a Muslim mind thinks. They also taught me Islamic law as they knew I was going to be speaking with Muslims. This is why I always invoke Islamic law when I do speak with Muslims that give me a right to speak and them a right to reply. So save your assumptions.

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This is like saying you know how to drive a bus, you know how the bus works, you might even know everything about the Bus in great detail. But there is a difference between knowing how a bus works and actually driving it. The atmosphere completely changes from when you describing how the bus works to actually driving it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade

No I have no interest in Islam. It is the Arabs the descendants of Ishmael that I had an interest in and as many converted foolishly to Islam then it was inevitable I would learn about that religion and as can be plainly seen by the Sura 4:82 I learn well don’t I. Now I can convert Muslims specifically Arabic Muslims. Islamic law does that conversion of course and the words of the Koran Sura 4:82.

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You are wrong again. Most of the people didn’t want to convert to Islam but they were forced to do so through either pressure or by the sword. Another thing is that they already knew Islam is wrong but they have no choice because of the Muslims that apply the Gizya. This can be from not letting the non-believer getting the university place, the job, proper education to actually kidnapping the woman on the streets and raping them to convert to Islam.

The Arabic Muslims would be the hardest to convert because they have been so ingrained with the Koran since they were born. Their latest national identiy is Islamic so to leave Islam is to leave every thing that they had ever known.

Secondly, they speak Arabic, you don’t and since the official language of God is in Arabic you have the disadvantage. Don’t forget they can lie to us to help support their claim, if you don’t know the Arabic then you can’t argue.

I am not saying that Arabs aren’t converting out of Islam, they are, but what I am saying is that you have the disadvantage.

quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade

Ben Elias you think an Imam is all that. Well then go find one get them online. Then we shall see Starjade shine like a Star and we shall see islam bite the Dust. My Email is on the End of Times web site if I got barred and so there is always a point of contact. I already have challenged the whole of islam and I sure as Hell have no intention of backing down. So in my deserved confidence I am challenging the whole of Islam and chicken legged imams belong in that assortment of lost souls don’t they.

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An Imam is very dangerous, not all that. Why didn’t your Islamic expert tell you that?

quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade

No Muslim and I mean no Muslim can defend the Koran or the religion of islam or the word of Muhammad against the God given revelations of the much loved Doomsday prophet Starjade. That proof of that is already sitting on these pages and many others like them around the world.

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You mean logic? Don’t you use logic in your arguments? If you can beat them that means you do, so hence it’s not your ‘god given revelations’ it’s simple research with simple logic, simple enough?

quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade

Poor fing it must have been a shock to see how easy I could prove jesus was a fraud. But that is another story. Trust me Ben Elias I have had conversations with some very hard core religiously expert people and they could not dispute my words and neither can you or any Muslim Imam or not.

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I am disputing your words. Feel free to prove what I am saying about you is wrong. Show me that Jesus was not the Son of God. Also, didn’t you say that the mother word of Islam is ‘deceit’ but I said it was ‘fear’ and didn’t you agree with me?
So I can dispute your own words, so you are wrong again. Simple logic.

quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade

If I was in a court of Islamic law I would still walk free not guilty of any crime of Blasphemy because Islamic law does give me that right to speak and forces all Muslims to reject the Koran and the word of Muhammad no matter how deeply a Muslim may believe.

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You have no idea what you are saying.

quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade

There will be no death penalty placed on me but Muslims worship two false prophets jesus and Muhammad and they all worship a false God of a false prophets imagination and that makes them guilty of Blasphemy so I am the one who will be warning of death penalties and I can stone entire continents to death.

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Jesus never claimed to be a simple prophet but the Son of God (Don’t bring up St. Mat 13.57). It was only Mohammed and Islam who said 3ssa was a prophet. Not even the Orthodox Jews think he was a prophet. So if you can prove that Mohammed was not the prophet of God then you have proven that Jesus is not a prophet.

Secondly, they don’t pray to Mohammed like they pray to Allah but they pray on the prophet. IE: People say ‘Sali 3lla el Nabi.’

quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade

Starjade says: I must have missed this post you speak of Ben. Can you link me to it. I promise I will respond. I know my words are true and I know my own power over islam is strong and that I can and always do and I am able to back up my mouth and all who do stand against me always bite the Dust. I can tell you things about Arabic that will shut that imams face.

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I am clearly challenging your views on Muslims and the Muslim mind. So as you quoted I should bite the dust because I opposed you and so according to you it should be easy. Unless you prove me wrong, I am right and you are wrong and thus you cannot be person that God reveled anything too.

quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade

I have seen all the Islamic tricks as I have been speaking with Muslims since 1997/98 and well beyond the year 2000. They are a Deja View to me. Go get one and I shall show you how easily I can eat him for breakfast and you can watch that Imam make excuses and then shirk away. They always do. Go get one online. Tell them what Starjade says and how Starjade is challenging Islam and Islam keeps on biting the Dust.

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Anyone who really studies the religion of Islam not from Politically correct sources such as John Episeto or ‘Dr.’ Zakir Naik but really get into the Hadis and Koran it will be beyond obvious what the real Islam is and why Muslims in the Western countries are so nice. You should encourage people to study the real sources of Islam not just say how you learned it, that way more people can be aware of the evil hidden agenda of Islam and beware of the truth.

Here I say for them to study Islam for themselves and don’t rely on what others say because I am sure people will not miss the real Islam. More and more people are doing this so the ‘tolerant and peaceful’ religion of Islam is becoming more and more of a lie as they understand the real Islam that Mohammed set forth.

quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade

Starjade says: yes I also agree with you they must follow and believe Islam or die. I know all the horror stories also.

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Again you are wrong. It’s not live or die, there are two other options and that is the Gizya tax (9.29) and the Gizya tax without the tax. That’s why there is a small minority of non believers in Muslim countries but as long as they have no say, power, respect or prospects as Muslims do simply because they are non Muslims, it is fine.

quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade

All Arabs are descendants of Ishmael and are the first born of Abraham and so they are bound by the Deuteronomy laws of Moses. It was the Arabs who fabricated the Koran just as the descendants of Israel fabricated a Golden Calf. I can convert Arabic Muslims using Islamic law and so I find this whole converting of islam most easy. It may create a great gnashing of teeth but I do have my reasons and God given agendas.

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According to the Bible, it was Isaac not Ismail that was sacrificed and so here is the catch 22. The Muslims are bound by the laws of Deuteronomy because of 10.95 if it doesn’t not conflict with the Koran, Hadis, Sharia law, Ibn Ishak etc.

quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade

Starjade says: I have been reading some of your writings Ben and I liked the way you presented your arguments.

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From the Saints only. Christ has risen!

quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade

Very true Islam needs a good shake up and it all comes in the unexpected name of Starjade. It is not that I think you do not know the topic of your subject. But that you could never have foreseen the arrival of Starjade. I come from a new angle and Muslims themselves dared to challenge me to challenge them.

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Incorrect view about the ‘shake up of Islam.’ If I understand you right, you are saying that Islam needs to be reformed? There is no such thing as reformation in Islam. It is the same back in Mohammed’s time and it will be the same in the future, the only difference is when how much they follow that same doctrine. By saying they need a shake up means you get rid of the core of Islam and thus it will be less Islam, which is unacceptable in the Muslim’s eyes.

The only way to ‘shake up’ Islam is to beat the doctrine not the people. Like a murder boasts about keeping the gun that was used to kill in perfect condition, likewise the Muslims are condemned by the same sources they so proudly boast they have kept uncorrupted since Mohammed’s time.

My question to you (if I understood you right) If you want to shake up Islam, what then will you reform without losing the Islamic identity?

quote:

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Originally posted by Starjade

Before you had heard of me did you know of the Islamic law and the sura 4:82 that forces Muslims to debate the Koran and Mad Muhammad and forces all muslims to convert and proves that the Koran does not come from God showing Muhammad is a liar and a fraud. Well you know those Muslims did not expect that either. They created a whole range of shirk deceptions to escape this and that question but when Islamic law is quoted and Sura 4:82 is quoted and a whole list of errors in the Koran are shown. Trust me Muslims cannot respond. They are powerless.

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Yes I did. People back then started to doubt Mohammed, however they were really fearing of ‘god’ and the punishment of god. Surat 4.82 is a famous verse that used by Mohammed to cull people into believing the Koran even against their own logical disbeliefs, so hence because the Arabs back then god fearing they chose the Koran because they didn’t want God to punish them. This verse goes hand in hand with the hell verses of non believers.

So here is nearly everything summarized:

-Muslim minds are different but non follow logic not because they are stupid, far from it, but because Islam does not allow logic.
-You’ve got hopes Egyptians are going to get an Imam online, but you never know!
-Egyptians are not the decedents of Ismail
-Not everyone ‘foolishly converted’ to Islam
-It’s not the Arab’s fault that the Koran become powerful but Mohammed and everyone underneath him from all backgrounds
-Arabic is a very vital point to argue with Muslims, because they can feed you anything and blame the translation
-Feel free to prove Coptic Christianity wrong
-When mentioning ‘Islam or die’ You forgot to mention the Giyza and Giyza without the tax.
-My point about Deuteronomy because of 10.95
-If I understood you correctly, Islam cannot be reformed
-Not a point of argument but I did know about 4.82 previously.

Your point of view of Islam is dramatically different from mine. I have presented my side and if you want more evidence or proof I will give you more at your request. The views are listed here are in contrast with yours so who knows, I could be wrong.

God bless,
Benjamin Elias
zaki_boxing@yahoo.com

[This message has been edited by ben_elias (edited 20 August 2005).]

Starjade says: Well hello again Ben and you are welcome.

Ben Elias you said:
As you have answered my post I shall answer yours. I am not doubting your understanding of the Koran and Islam. You don’t however have an understanding of the background, culture and laws of the same Arabs you condemn.

Starjade says: s a matter of fact ben the very people who taught me the religion of Islam are people who came from that background and from those cultures and they did teach me the laws of those Arabs. I came to this very forum Quoting Islamic law and the words of the Koran. I used Islamic law and the words of the Koran to prove the Koran did not come from God and that Muhammad is a liar and a fraud.

The Islamic law I invoked gives those Muslims the right to reply and discuss those normally taboo matters and those same laws force them to convert because they are the very Arabs and people from those backgrounds and cultures that we both speak of and as a matter of fact it was the fabrication of their religion and the blasphemy it represents to the Living God that I have condemned.

Ben Elias you said:
We both agree logically that the Koran is full of fallacies but my beef is not with people believing a different doctrine full of mistakes but people (including the followers) getting hurt because of that doctrine. Islam is a cult that woos people from all over the world from whatever their previous backgrounds and ideals to then fit with the Arab so that why it is important to understand the Arab and to a lesser degree the Arabic language spoken.

Starjade says: The fabricated religion of Islam is the Golden Calf of the Arabs. I have no real interest in Muslims only in those Arabs and then only because they are the descendants of Ishmael the first born of Abraham. So they are my real targets in those who follow the fabricated religion of Islam.

You speak of the atrocities that the followers of Islam commit. Not about the atrocities that had been committed against them. The fabricated religion of Islam is universal in that anyone can join up and become a Muslim not just an Arab. So whiles you condemn a single race of Arabs I condemn the religion that binds all races internationally. It would be very hard for Islamic extremists to enrol suicide bombers into a religion that can outright be proven to be a fraud and not the word of God. That then puts a big spanner in their works.

Ben Elias you said:
As your knowledge of Muslims and Middle East you are very wrong in many instances where it is obvious to any Arab Christian you don’t understand the Middle Eastern country’s culture let alone ever been there. Let me prove it to you…

Starjade says: I have no interest in their cultures I only have an interest in the Arabs and their religion. I do understand how a human mind works in any culture. In my own views by the way it is not what they want or believe that counts. It is what I want and what I know that causes me to have an agenda with those Arabs. Yet all along be sure it is all do with only what the Living God wants. So those Arabs had better grow more wise and hearken to me no matter what else is on their minds because the wrath of the Living God is well known to bring mankind sorrow.
quote:
Originally posted by Starjade

Starjade says: I never assume anything. A Muslim is a Muslim is a Muslim in my eyes. Be sure their imams are watching and be sure some Muslims will go and yack off or complain or beg for help of their imam. But trust me their Imams are too afraid to come online and face me.

Ben Elias you said:
Not all Muslims are the same, like not all Christians are the same. They all follow the same hateful doctrine and they have many denominations like the Christians (Sunni, Shia, Druze, Aliwisi etc.) but not all Muslim is the same.

Starjade says: Thankyou for you Input ben. I agree not all Muslims are the same and they do have factions which in my view should have stemmed from the many Tribes of Ishmael. I think their should be 13 factions but Time may have changed that by now. It all to my view should be down to what tribe they have descended from.

However no matter what kind of Muslim it is they all follow one Koran. That religion guides and controls the mass Populace. Religion is a powerful thing. Of course Christian and Muslim and Jew Arabs will intertwine. However I use the law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 a law that determines matters of the truth especially regarding matters of crimes of iniquity and sin and by that law I can easily prove the false Prophet Jesus is a fabricated fraud. Muhammad is found to be a liar and a fraud also by that same law of Moses. So then in a religious debate Christian and Muslims Arabs would then be shown how easy Jesus and Muhammad are frauds and that then brings it all down to a conversation to all Arab Jews as the Old Testament has been fulfilled by my very own arrival.