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Originally posted by Serendipity:
Snoozin, You truly give me hope that there are still good ppl in this world. thanks for that dear.

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Originally posted by Morgan:

ASSLICKER LOL

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Attack me all you want Morgan. But please leave nice people like Serendipity alone.

quote:

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Originally posted by Snoozin:
Oh, no horemheb it's not you at all we're talking about here. Not political discussions either. These are to the heart of the religion itself, people telling others that Islam is evil, the Qur'an is evil, that type of thing. Trying to convert them or something. I'm not sure.

I agree with you on separation of church and state. That's a *very* American idea that is *very* ingrained in me.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Snoozin:
Jada, try not to worry about them. The really *insulting* stuff is being thrown around by people who feel very insecure about something within themselves. You *can* learn a lot here about Islam and interfaith relationships. You have to wade through the weird crap, but the good stuff is definitely there. You will quickly find who's very helpful, like Newcomer, Pendarth, and Humanized. And you will quickly find out who's *not.*

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quote:

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Originally posted by ben_elias:
So by using Islamic sources to prove Islam wrong, I am insecure?

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sorry Ben, you havent used the islamic sources to show anything but hatred , you only copy/paste what ever you like from Quran/Hadith then you show your own explanation depending on your own ignorance of Quran/hadith , you are not understanding what/why and for the reasons behind the Quran verses nor the occasions of the Ahadith. You always claim to be aware of the the Tafsir and your extreme knowledge of Quran !!!
I have been a Muslim for 30 years and yet cant claim such a fraud lie.

And yes, your lack of security is the reason behind hating Islam and muslims , and dont answer me with your contradictory argument "i dont hate muslims but i hate their ideology" just read it to yourself before you write it and try to find any sense in it.
you just hate muslims or not!!
you just take the exceptions of the radicals and generalize your opinions against islam.
you take the verses of Quran out of context then you wage a war against Islam , and what is Islam! nothing but the people who believe in it.

you insult our Holy Book , you insult Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) , then you insult all muslims , then you claim to show all the lies about Islam , and that everyone is fooled by the ethics of Islam !!

And you are the only Messiah who is trying to rescue the entire world from the dangers of Islam....because you know Islam ,Quran and Mohamed better than any one else .
please try to get a life....

The Koran says: Sura 4:82 do they not consider the Koran with care for if it had come from any other than God then surley they would have found much discrepency therein

quote:

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Originally posted by ben_elias:
So by using Islamic sources to prove Islam wrong, I am insecure?

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Well, I'm beginning to think you are. ?? I answered you on this thread already that you had been very civil in *our* conversations, so I hadn't really been directing my thread to you. Remember, *truce?*

So I'm puzzled by your bringing this up.

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Originally posted by Humanized:
sorry Ben, you havent used the islamic sources to show anything but hatred , you only copy/paste what ever you like from Quran/Hadith then you show your own explanation depending on your own ignorance of Quran/hadith , you are not understanding what/why and for the reasons behind the Quran verses nor the occasions of the Ahadith.

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Humanized you make no sense. You write that we copy and paste parts from the Quran and then interpret them the way we like. But Ben and I use the Muslim scholars interpretation of the verses in question. Not OUR interpreation, but the Muslims scholars interpretation, the interpretation that has been agreed by Muslim scholars.

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Originally posted by Snoozin:
It's one thing to say, *I don't agree with such and such,* or *I prefer such and such about Christianity or some other religion.* It's entirely another thing to throw insults at the Prophet (pbuh) and call him a child molester for marrying Aiysha when she was nine.

I don't know if you are Christian or not, but to insult the Prophet (pbuh) I believe feels as bad as when artists here, in the name of art, desecrate the image of the Virgin Mary by doing something like spreading feces over her face, or showing Jesus Christ in a sexual manner. It's offensive, period. And generally people who have no legitimate basis for their arguments resort to insults.

People don't have to *like* Islam, but I would think they'd show a modicum of *respect* for Islam on a board that is predominately Muslim

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Snoozing be offended as much as you like.
But we respect the Muslims. Muslims are people like us, they are victims, but we respect them and love them nevertheless, because they are human beings like the rest of us. However we dont´t have to show respect for the Quran or for what Muhammad did. Muhammad was no good example, and by pointing that out to Muslims, we are doing them a favor ensuring they are not following his bad example. I have read the Quran many times and I am appaled by the things Muhammad did and said.
Why should I shut up and not speak my mind.
It’s like a Nazi saying you should not condemn Nazism because not all the Germans are bad people. Of course all the Germans were not bad people. But they were just guilty because the strength of the nazi machinery of death came from the average Germans who remained silent and supported it with their tax money. The guilt of Muslims is greater, the Germans could not overthrow their brutal government easily just as the Iranians are not able to overthrow the savage Mullahs, however Muslims in the west have the opportunity to criticize Islam and despite that they prefer to bury their hands in the sand.

quote:

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Originally posted by kafir4ever:
Snoozing be offended as much as you like.
But we respect the Muslims. Muslims are people like us, they are victims, but we respect them and love them nevertheless, because they are human beings like the rest of us. However we dont´t have to show respect for the Quran or for what Muhammad did. Muhammad was no good example, and by pointing that out to Muslims, we are doing them a favor ensuring they are not following his bad example. I have read the Quran many times and I am appaled by the things Muhammad did and said.
Why should I shut up and not speak my mind.
It’s like a Nazi saying you should not condemn Nazism because not all the Germans are bad people. Of course all the Germans were not bad people. But they were just guilty because the strength of the nazi machinery of death came from the average Germans who remained silent and supported it with their tax money. The guilt of Muslims is greater, the Germans could not overthrow their brutal government easily just as the Iranians are not able to overthrow the savage Mullahs, however Muslims in the west have the opportunity to criticize Islam and despite that they prefer to bury their hands in the sand.

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I never said you couldn't speak your mind. Evidently, you just aren't refined enough to do it in a polite manner.

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Originally posted by Snoozin:
I never said you couldn't speak your mind. Evidently, you just aren't refined enough to do it in a polite manner.

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Originally posted by kafir4ever:

If the Prophet slept with 9 year olds, it is not my fault. What is a polite way to call that act? I prefer to call things by their name.

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Maybe you should make people aware that he didn't consummate the marriage until she reached puberty, instead of merely posting inflamatory accusations.

Once the Prophet was asked, "Who are the chosen people of God?"

He replied, "The truthful and the pure-hearted."

"O Prophet of Allah," they said, "truthful we understand, but who are the pure-hearted?"

"Those who neither fall into sin, nor transgress, who neither deceivs nor bear malice. Such are the pure of heart."

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Originally posted by Snoozin:
Maybe you should make people aware that he didn't consummate the marriage until she reached puberty, instead of merely posting inflamatory accusations.

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No snoozin! Read your Quran again! I know it is difficult to accept but the holy Prophet married Aisha when she was 6 years old and consummated (read slept) his marriage with her when she was 9. He was then, 54 years old.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/008.smt.html#008.3310

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (ie till his death). http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.064

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.065

quote:

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Originally posted by kafir4ever:
Am I wrong or right? Did Muhammad sleep with a 9 year old or not ? If I am wrong, one Muslim should be able to prove me wrong. Where is that Muslim? If I am right, then why are you accusing me of calling Muhammad a pedophile, implying that I am lying?

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You are either lying or sorely misinformed. I don't feel gracious enough right now to assume the latter.

Karen Armstrong is an extraordinarily well-respected religious scholar, in case you didn't know.

Karen Armstrong's book Muhammad

Page 145:

Muhammad's harem of wives has excited a lot of lurid and prurient speculation in the West as well as a good deal of ill-concealed envy, as we saw in Chapter 1 when I showed that Muhammad was frequently accused of lust. Few people in Arabia at that time saw monogamy as a particularly desirable norm and in later years, when Muhammad was becoming a great Arab sayyid, his large harem was a mark of his status. In a tribal society, polygamy tends to be the norm. The Bible is not at all squeamish about the sexual exploits of King David or the enormouse harem of King Solomon, which makes Muhammad's look quite pathetic.

But it would be quite wrong to imagine Muhammad basking decadently in a garden of earlthy delights, indeed his many wives were sometimes rather a mixed blessing. We should simply notice two things. First, neither Sawdah nor Aisha were chosen for their sexual charms. Aisha was only a little girl, and at thirty Sawdah was past her first youth and was beginning to run to fat. We hear little more about her and this indicates that the marriage was more of a practical arrangement than a love-match.

Both marriages had a political dimension: Muhammad was forging important links of kinship. He still had hopes of Suhayl, who was a deeply religious man, and the marriage with Sawdah made him a relative by marriage. It was also important to establish a closer tie with Abu Bakr: Muhammad was beginning to form an alternative kind of clan, which was not based on kinship but on ideology, yet the blood-tie was still felt to be very important.

Page 156:

Muhammad was also accompanied by the last members of Abu Bakr's family to make the hijra, Abdallah, his son, Umm Ruman, his wife, and his daughters Asma and Aisha.

Finally, about a month after she had arrived in Mecca, it was decided that it was time for the wedding of Muhammad with Aisha. She was still only nine years old, so there was no wedding feast and the ceremonial was kept to a minimum. Indeed, it was so low-key that on the day itself Aisha had no idea that she was going to be married and was playing with her friends on a see-saw. Abu Bakr had bought some fine red-striped cloth from Bahrein and this had been made into a wedding dress for her. Then they took her to her little apartment beside the mosque. There Muhammad was waiting for her, and he laughed and smiled while they decked her with jewelery and ornaments and combed her long hair. Eventually a bowl of milk was brought in and Muhammad and Aisha both drank from it. The marriage made little difference to Aisha's life. Tabari says that she was so young that she stayed in her parents' home and the marriage was consummated there later when she had reached puberty.

______________________________
My comments:

The point of this is to put their marriage in context. She *may* have been 9, she *may* have been older. The point is, she reached puberty first. Which was the norm in society at that time. To merely run around saying the Prophet (pbuh) was a pedophile is wrong, slanderous, and just downright malicious. There is no true search for the truth when you misrepresent facts. And it's per se misrepresentation when you do not portray a controversial topic or situation within the proper context.

[This message has been edited by Snoozin (edited 20 August 2005).]

I am amazed that you find nothing wrong with Aisha´s age! Mrrying at the age of 6 and consummating the marriage at the age of 9 is clearly okay with you. How can you prohibit a Muslim not to assault sexually a 9 year old child by marrying her? What would you say to a Muslim who wishes to marry up to four wives and decides to punish them by beating them if they are disobedient, as the Prophet instructed him to do? If we use some peoples logic in picking the teachings that are best, we are saying that logic is superior to revelation and therefore you are subscribing to the freethinker’s way of thinking not Muhammad’s.

quote:

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Originally posted by Snoozin:
The point of this is to put their marriage in context. She *may* have been 9, she *may* have been older. The point is, she reached puberty first. Which was the norm in society at that time. To merely run around saying the Prophet (pbuh) was a pedophile is wrong, slanderous, and just downright malicious.

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How is it malicious? The fact remains, Muhammad had desires for a 6 year old child.
Sahih Bukhari 7.18
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry." http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.018

Arabs were a primitive lot but they had some code of ethics that they honored scrupulously. For example, although they fought all the year round, they abstained from hostilities during certain holy months of the year. They also considered Mecca to be a holy city and did not make war against it. A adopted son’s wife was deemed to be a daughter in law and they would not marry her. Also it was customary that close friends made a pact of brotherhood and considered each other as true brothers. The Prophet disregarded all of these rules anytime they stood between him and his interests or whims.

Abu Bakr and Muhammad had pledged to each other to be brothers. So according to their costoms Ayesha was supposed to be like a niece to the Prophet. Yet that did not stop him to ask her hand even when she was only six years old. But this moral relativist Prophet would use the same excuse to reject a woman he did not like.

quote:

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Originally posted by Snoozin:
The point is, she reached puberty first. Which was the norm in society at that time.

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At the age of 9 you do not reach puberty. This site also defends Muhammad for marrying Aisha at 9 claiming that girls reach puberty at that age and therefore are considered adult and having sex with them at such tender age is acceptable.http://bismikaallahuma.faithweb.com/aishah.html
I agree that morality is relative however Muhammad was supposed a Messenger of God. He followed the morality of his people, but that morality was ethically wrong. He claimed to be the best human and the last messenger of God. According to him God has said to people all he wanted to say in the Quran and his religion is complete. There is no more guidance to come and his examples and teachings are all we need to know and follow for eternity. Now we should realize that we cannot live by his examples any more, nor can we practice his teachings.
We would certainly put a man in jail if he wanted to follow the Sunnah of the prophet in this day and age and "marry" a 9 year old. We would not allow someone to take people as slaves or trade in slavery as Muhammad did.
If we cannot follow the morality of Muhammad any more, if what he said and did do not fit in this modern day, why we need Muhammad?

quote:

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Originally posted by kafir4ever:
How is it malicious? The fact remains, Muhammad had desires for a 6 year old child.

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It's malicious because you play on people's sensitivities toward pedophilia when *that* is not what was going on. You use the word *desire* in a way to make it seem like a sexual desire, when it wasn't. It was a *political* desire. You are blatently misrepresenting *why* the Prophet married Aisha to suit whatever twisted purposes you have.

And no, it does not bother me in the least if he had sex with a nine year old. Not in the least. The average life span back then was maybe 40 years old. Maybe. In Europe as late as the 1800s it was 30. Life was hard. People married very young so that they could procreate. Kids in Maryland, with parental permission, can get married as young as 13. That's 2005, and in this culture and this modern society, *that* is a crime.

The way you post what you do wouldn't pass the sniff test in a freshman history class. To quote something that occured without giving its historical context is outrageously irresponsible. And *that* is why I say you are disrespectful to Islam, to Muslims, and to intelligent people of other religions. You are playing with people's religion here, their belief system. You should be more careful.

And it's pointless what you do. Cruel even. And why would any normal human being want to be cruel? Your arguments will *never* persuade a Muslim that his faith is wrong, so your postings are futile in that regard. The only thing left is to insult people, so that is all you are doing. And if that's what you want to do, then fine. But don't lie and say you want to show people the *evils* of Islam, because you never will.

If you truly want to somehow get Muslims to *see the light* then you need to go about it in an entirely different way. What that is, I have no idea, but your childish, whiny rantings are totally ineffectual in changing anybody's mind. That only leads me to believe you are hear to hurt people, to anger them, to annoy them.

So I feel really sorry for you. There have got to be more productive things you could do with your life. Go be nice to somebody for a change. You might like it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Snoozin:
And no, it does not bother me in the least if he had sex with a nine year old. Not in the least. The average life span back then was maybe 40 years old. Maybe. In Europe as late as the 1800s it was 30. Life was hard. People married very young so that they could procreate.

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If we read the Hadiths we learn that Aisha was still playing with her dolls when Muhammad asked to marry her. 6 years old is an unnacceptable age for marriage even for that time. Muhammad was a 56 year old man and Aisha only 6, but you obviously see nothing wrong in that. It is tragic to read news reports of old men marrying children in some Islamic countries, because they believe they are following the example of Muhammad who married a child. Muhammad had an interest in fondling young girls, so he criticized the lawful marriage union of two grown adults.

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron' He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?' Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17. http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.017

According to Islam, Muhammad is the perfection of humanity and the prototype of the most wonderful human conduct. He married a nine year-old and leaves an enduring legacy for old Muslim men to fulfill their carnal desires contrary to natural law and to the life-long devastation of young girls.

quote:

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Originally posted by Snoozin:
It's malicious because you play on people's sensitivities toward pedophilia when *that* is not what was going on. You use the word *desire* in a way to make it seem like a sexual desire, when it wasn't. It was a *political* desire. You are blatently misrepresenting *why* the Prophet married Aisha to suit whatever twisted purposes you have.

And no, it does not bother me in the least if he had sex with a nine year old. Not in the least. The average life span back then was maybe 40 years old. Maybe. In Europe as late as the 1800s it was 30. Life was hard. People married very young so that they could procreate. Kids in Maryland, with parental permission, can get married as young as 13. That's 2005, and in this culture and this modern society, *that* is a crime.

The way you post what you do wouldn't pass the sniff test in a freshman history class. To quote something that occured without giving its historical context is outrageously irresponsible. And *that* is why I say you are disrespectful to Islam, to Muslims, and to intelligent people of other religions. You are playing with people's religion here, their belief system. You should be more careful.

And it's pointless what you do. Cruel even. And why would any normal human being want to be cruel? Your arguments will *never* persuade a Muslim that his faith is wrong, so your postings are futile in that regard. The only thing left is to insult people, so that is all you are doing. And if that's what you want to do, then fine. But don't lie and say you want to show people the *evils* of Islam, because you never will.

If you truly want to somehow get Muslims to *see the light* then you need to go about it in an entirely different way. What that is, I have no idea, but your childish, whiny rantings are totally ineffectual in changing anybody's mind. That only leads me to believe you are hear to hurt people, to anger them, to annoy them.

So I feel really sorry for you. There have got to be more productive things you could do with your life. Go be nice to somebody for a change. You might like it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by JOSHUA:
You want to sound convincing, but you are not...you're fooling yourself. Would you give your nine years old girl to a 54 years old man...leave them together in one room....???

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quote:

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Originally posted by JOSHUA:
You want to sound convincing, but you are not...you're fooling yourself. Would you give your nine years old girl to a 54 years old man...leave them together in one room....???

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You miss my point entirely. People here who want to slander Islam in any attempt to change people's minds about it are doing so in vain. I don't see a bunch of Muslims running around on these boards, saying *Thank you Kafir! I'm so glad you showed me the truth!* Not one.

NOT ONE.

So that leaves me with nothing other than people like Kafir enjoy being mean. I have no respect for behavior like that.

And why do you even care what I think about the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? I am intelligent enough to understand that there are thousands of variables going on that influenced his life vs. what influences my modern life in the US. You won't change my mind on anything, just like I won't change your mind on anything. So how about neither of us even try?

quote:

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Originally posted by kafir4ever:
Muhammad was a 56 year old man and Aisha only 6, but you obviously see nothing wrong in that. It is tragic to read news reports of old men marrying children in some Islamic countries, because they believe they are following the example of Muhammad who married a child.

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You know, you'd have a lot more credibility if you mentioned Islam's potential effect on modern day activities dealing with older men marry younger girls, rather than just running around inflaming people over the Prophet (pbuh) being a pedophile. Because yes, marrying underage girls is a problem in some countries and some *do* blame it on Islam. Because nobody here seems to mention the Hindu practice of child brides. Nobody seems upset with that. ??

But *my* personal approach to this wouldn't be to slander the Prophet (pbuh); instead, it would be to educate people *today* about the problems and improprieties of doing something like this. You would have a *lot* more impact on modifying current behavior by doing what I suggest than you would trying to debunk an entire religion.

And if you really care about child rape, you should be more worried about Sub-saharan African countries where AIDS-infected men rape young virgins, ignorantly believing this is a cure for AIDS. There is a *lot* more trouble there today than anywhere.

quote:

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Originally posted by kafir4ever:
At the age of 9 you do not reach puberty.

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A recent study shows that African American girls begin puberty between ages 8 and 9 on average, while white girls begin by age 10. At age 8, about 48 percent of blacks and almost 15 percent of whites in the study had started puberty, which the researchers defined as beginning development of breasts and/or pubic hair…

Herman-Giddens became concerned while she was practicing as a physician's assistant and noticed more and more girls who showed signs of puberty before the age of eight. According to the textbooks, these girls were "abnormal," and many doctors would feel compelled to refer them to an endocrinologist, Herman-Giddens says. But since no adequate studies had been done of development in girls younger than twelve, Herman-Giddens and some colleagues decided to find out if these girls really were "abnormal."

The study included data from 17,077 girls ages 3 through 12 seen for physical exams in doctors' offices nationwide. Ninety percent of the subjects were white, and ten percent were black.

The researchers aren't sure why racial differences exist. Past studies seem to indicate that there are inherent differences between races in the average age for beginning puberty, Herman-Giddens says. But many other things influence puberty, such as environment, diet, even latitude. "It's well known that girls nearer the equator begin puberty earlier than girls farther away," presumably because of increased light exposure, she says...

quote:

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Originally posted by JOSHUA:
You want to sound convincing, but you are not...you're fooling yourself. Would you give your nine years old girl to a 54 years old man...leave them together in one room....???

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Originally posted by newcomer:
"Aisha herself never objected."

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Listen to yourself talking...what a 9 years old know to object or not to object newcomer, and for you Snoozin, I addressed a single event not how valid or not valid this dialouge is.

quote:

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Originally posted by Snoozin:
Because nobody here seems to mention the Hindu practice of child brides. Nobody seems upset with that. ??

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Originally posted by JOSHUA:
Listen to yourself talking...what a 9 years old know to object or not to object newcomer,

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Originally posted by newcomer:
"Never" means: at the time or at any time thereafter.

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Is that your logic?....so her mental capacity was able to make this decision at age 9 or not?

Her mental capacity knew what a 56 years old man was about to do in that room at the time?

This is what you have upthere:
"Aisha herself never objected"
"Never" means: at the time or at any time thereafter"

So basically you are saying "She didn't complain later in time"

Therefore intercourse at age of 9 was perfectly ok in her case.

quote:

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Originally posted by newcomer:
Her father did, and no one in the community, not even the Prophet's enemies, objected at the time or subsequently, and they were always looking for things to criticize him over as he was challenging their social status and authority by his mission. Aisha herself never objected.

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Read my previous post. At first his father was reluctant. Abu Bakr and Muhammad had pledged to each other to be brothers. So according to their costoms Ayesha was supposed to be like a niece to the Prophet. Yet that did not stop him to ask her hand even when she was only six. The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage.

Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry." http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.018

Islamic law has codified this principle of non-consent for under-age women based on Muhammad’s precedent:

“A father may give consent to have his young virgin daughter married without obtaining her permission, for she does not have a choice, exactly as Abu Bakr El Sadiq did to his daughter Aisha, when she was six years old. He married her to the prophet Muhammad without her permission.”

quote:

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Originally posted by kafir4ever:
Suppose the Hindu practice is as bad, does this make you feel good? Just because others are misguided you are happy that Muslims are misguided too? Honestly, I can´t understand your logic snoozin.

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I mentioned underage Hindu weddings because you just seem hell-bent on dogging Islam only. I was trying to highlight your obvious bias. That's all.

quote:

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Originally posted by JOSHUA:

Tragedy!!!

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quote:

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Originally posted by JOSHUA:
Is that your logic?....so her mental capacity was able to make this decision at age 9 or not?

Her mental capacity knew what a 56 years old man was about to do in that room at the time?

This is what you have upthere:
"Aisha herself never objected"
"Never" means: at the time or at any time thereafter"

So basically you are saying "She didn't complain later in time"

Therefore intercourse at age of 9 was perfectly ok in her case.

Tragedy!!!

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9 is young by our standards today. But a court today can legally determine a child's mental capacity for a variety of situations, be it criminal issues such as intent to commit a crime, or civil issues such as which parent that child would like to live with in the midst of divorce. We do it by the standards we have put in place today.

Same back then. I believe that the Qur'an speaks to the age a woman may marry and that she must be mature and make her own decision (as to spouse). Therefore, I believe that Aisha was deemed mature enough by her community and her family and the Prophet (pbuh) to make this decision to enter freely into a marriage.

quote:

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Originally posted by Snoozin:
In addition, I think his later marriages were more of a political arrangement than a love arrangement.

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That is another "tragedy" >>>(marriages were more of a political arrangement)
The funny thing that I'm not really saying anything....I take the words out of your mouth and show it to you in a mirror. Is that the purpose marriage is made for...political reasons? so in other words he proposes for a woman to marry to only have a better approach to her properties/her family's properties as cattle, camels and lands right?? Is that what is a holy prophet is suppose to do to spread the word of God? Is that our role model to love?

quote:

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Originally posted by Snoozin:

I believe that Aisha was deemed mature enough by her community and her family and the Prophet (pbuh) to make this decision to enter freely into a marriage.

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So she was deemed mature enough at age 9 years old...by her community... and her family... and the 56 years old man to take this decision ....at age 9 ....so in behalf of her they took the decision that she could as you say freely>>>> have an intercourse<<<I would rather rephrase for you in plain language...

She did fully understand that this man will put his old penis into her "a not developed yet vagina" in other words if you would excuse my language....
Is that it? think again, I still have some little faith in your IQ...

quote:

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Originally posted by Snoozin:
I mentioned underage Hindu weddings because you just seem hell-bent on dogging Islam only. I was trying to highlight your obvious bias. That's all.

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Hindow and other religions are not from the "THREE heavenly religions>>> Judaism, Christianity and Islam excatly like the way you teach little kids in your muslim schools....

Although of the above:

Not only Hindu..there are many other terrible habbits and weddings in many other religions, but not our topic...we are talking about this in Islam... here... right now....

quote:

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Originally posted by JOSHUA:
That is another "tragedy" >>>(marriages were more of a political arrangement)
The funny thing that I'm not really saying anything....I take the words out of your mouth and show it to you in a mirror. Is that the purpose marriage is made for...political reasons? so in other words he proposes for a woman to marry to only have a better approach to her properties/her family's properties as cattle, camels and lands right?? Is that what is a holy prophet is suppose to do to spread the word of God? Is that our role model to love?

[This message has been edited by JOSHUA (edited 21 August 2005).]

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Aren't you aware that is how it has been for women for all of recorded history, other than the past 200 years or so?

quote:

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Originally posted by JOSHUA:
So she was deemed mature enough at age 9 years old...by her community... and her family... and the 56 years old man to take this decision ....at age 9 ....so in behalf of her they took the decision that she could as you say freely>>>> have an intercourse<<<I would rather rephrase for you in plain language...

She did fully understand that this man will put his old penis into her "a not developed yet vagina" in other words if you would excuse my language....
Is that it? think again, I still have some little faith in your IQ...

[This message has been edited by JOSHUA (edited 21 August 2005).]

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That's exactly it. What needs clarification?

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Originally posted by newcomer:
Up to your usual tricks again, trying to put your own inferences on matters and ignoring the full picture. Whatever!!

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Tell me you are afraid to call it a tragedy.

What full picture...
the full picture that I see a 56 years old man on top of a 9 years old girl...not our concern you see evil things happen in life this is not the tragedy yet...

The tragedy is that this man is the messanger of God...

quote:

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Originally posted by Snoozin:
Aren't you aware that is how it has been for women for all of recorded history, other than the past 200 years or so?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Snoozin:
That's exactly it. What needs clarification?

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quote:

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Originally posted by JOSHUA:
Only now I lost faith in your IQ ...

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