posted
Whiles you speak of the Moon splitting think about how Muhammad said that the Sun set in a pool of muddy water and how Muhammad claimed thunder was made by angels and clouds from angles burning wood in the sky. I wish you could have seen that look on a muslims face who once also bragged about the moon split thingy.
Yet whiles you glorify Muhammad you forget the Koran itself already says the Koran did not come from God so you really are walking into the realms of your own fantasies.
Muhammad was never a Prophet from God no matter how much you believe.
quote:Originally posted by Sam on line: The Jahiliyyah (Pre-Islamic Arabia)
Even in the period of Jahiliyyah (or "the ignorance" of pre-Islamic Arabia500 -622) the Arabs also had a great cultural literary civilization. Its great classical belles letters could very easily be compared to the best literary treasures developed during the later golden age of the Arab/Islamic civilization of the Abbasids and Andalusia. The Jahiliyyah era witnessed a vibrant golden age of Arab poetry and odes. Among the top pre-Islamic Arab poets, whose poems are still studied in college and pre-college curricula throughout the Arab world, are the seven legendary poets of the Golden Odes, known as the Seven Mu'allaqat ("the Suspended Odes"). These seven pre-Islamic Arab poets who belonged to different Arab tribes included: Prince Imru' al-Qays of the Kindah Kingdom; Tarfah (by far the greatest pre-Islamic Arab poet); Zuhair; Labid (who became so overwhelmed by the power and elegance of the Qur'an that he refused to compose any poetry for the last thirty years of his life); Antar (the greatest cavalier warrior of pre-Islamic Arabia); Amru' Ibn Kalthoom; and al-Harith Ibn Hillizah. Each one of these seven great Arab poets wrote magnificent lengthy poems accentuated with passion, love, eloquence, courage, and sensuality. Their seven golden odes, considered to be the greatest literary treasure. http://wahdah.blogspot.com/2005/04/arabs-before-islam-educate-yourself.html
Art is good. Art of death and torture is not good, just like the old woman who Mohamad put between two camels and split her apart when she dared and told him he is not a messanger of God, he could have got rid of her in any way but to high light his talents in art, he chose to split her apart, artistic, right?
[This message has been edited by JOSHUA (edited 02 September 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by JOSHUA: Art is good. Art of death and torture is not good, just like the old woman who Mohamad put between two camels and split her apart when she dared and told him he is not a messanger of God, he could have got rid of her in any way but to high light his talents in art, he chose to split her apart, artistic, right?
[This message has been edited by JOSHUA (edited 02 September 2005).]
I wonder, what are the sources of these nice stories? Kafir sources or do you watch horror movies alot Any way you are making my day, it is not that bad to hear trash things for some time, it makes one appreciates other nice things.
Take that
The surrah is El-rahman (55.33). It says : You assembly of genie and mankind if you can go through the territories of skies and earth; Go through, but you can't not go through unless by sultan (powerful authority) (of God)(33). So of which (blessings-bounties) of God you belie (deny) (don't believe) (34). Sending on you shawaz (speedy fragments) of fire and copper, and you won't succeed (win) (35). So of which (blessings-bounties) of God you belie (deny) (don't believe) (36).
SHawaz = speedy fragments … It is more like that components of a bomb when exploded, so they speedily spread out and hit around.
These shawaz or fragments are the rocks, comets, asteroids, that are spread out in the space, some of which go through earth atmosphere as well, few of them reach earth.
[This message has been edited by Sam on line (edited 06 September 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by Sam on line: I wonder, what are the sources of these nice stories? Kafir sources or do you watch horror movies alot Any way you are making my day, it is not that bad to hear trash things for some time, it makes one appreciates other nice things.
Take that
The surrah is El-rahman (55.33). It says: You assembly of genie and mankind if you can go through the territories of skies and earth; Go through, but you can't not go through unless by powerful authority (of God)(33). So of which (blessings-bounties) of God you defy (don't believe) (34). Sending on you shawaz (speedy fragments) of fire and copper, and you won't succeed (win) (35). So of which (blessings-bounties) of god you defy (deny) (don't believe) (36).
SHawaz = speedy fragments … It is more like that components of a bomb when exploded, so they speedily spread out and hit around.
These shawaz or fragments are the rocks, comets, asteroids, that are spread out in the space, some of which go through earth atmosphere as well, few of them reach earth.
محمد يشق أم قرفة بين جملين
Tabari VIII:96 “A raiding party led by Zayd set out against Umm in Ramadan. During it, Umm suffered a cruel death. Zyad tied her legs with rope and then tied her between two camels until they split her in two. She was a very old woman. Then they brought Umm’s daughter and Abdallah to the Messenger. Umm’s daughter belonged to Salamah who had captured her. Muhammad asked Salamah for her, and Salamah gave her to him.
أم قرفة هي فاطمة بنت ربيعة بن بدر بن عمرو الفزارية. أم قرفة تزوجت مالكا بن حذيفة بن بدر وولدت له ثلاثة عشر ولدا أولهم (قرفة وبه تكنى, وكل أولادها كانوا من الرؤساء في قومهم. كانت من أعز العرب, وفيها يضرب المثل في العزة والمنعة فيقال: أعز من أم قرفة وكانت إذا تشاجرت غطفان بعثت خمارها على رمح فينصب بينهم فيصطلحون. كانت تؤلب على رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فأرسل في السنة السادسة للهجرة زيد بن حارثة في سرية فقتلها قتلا عنيفا, فقد ربط برجليها حبلا, ثم ربطه بين بعيرين حتى شقها شقا. وكانت عجوزا كبيرة, وحمل رأسها إلى المدينة ونصب فيها ليعلم قتلها.
قال ابن إسحاق : فلما قدم زيد بن حارثة آلى أن لا يمس رأسه غسل من جنابة حتى يغزو بني فزارة ، فلما استبل من جراحته بعثه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم إلى بني فزارة في جيش فقتلهم بوادي القرى ، وأصاب فيهم وقتل قيس بن المسحر اليعمري مسعدة بن حكمة بن مالك بن حذيفة بن بدر ، وأسرت أم قرفة فاطمة بنت ربيعة بن بدر كانت عجوزا كبيرة عند مالك بن حذيفة بن بدر ، وبنت لها ، وعبد الله بن مسعدة ، فأمر زيد بن حارثة قيس بن المسحر أن يقتل أم قرفة فقتلها قتلا عنيفا ; ثم قدموا على رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم بابنة أم قرفة وبابن مسعدة .
ثم سرية زيد بن حارثة إلى أم قرفة بناحية بوادي القرى على سبع ليال من المدينة في شهر رمضان سنة ست من مهاجر رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قالوا خرج زيد بن حارثة في تجارة إلى الشام ومعه بضائع لأصحاب النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فلما كان دون وادي القرى لقيه ناس من فزارة من بني بدر فضربوه وضربوا أصحابه وأخذوا ما كان معهم ثم استبل زيد وقدم على رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فأخبره فبعثه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم إليهم فكمنوا النهار وساروا الليل ونذرت بهم بنو بدر ثم صبحهم زيد وأصحابه فكبروا وأحاطوا بالحاضر وأخذوا أم قرفة وهي فاطمة بنت ربيعة بن بدر وابنتها جارية بنت مالك بن حذيفة بن بدر فكان الذي أخذ الجارية مسلمة بن الأكوع فوهبها لرسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فوهبها رسول الله بعد ذلك لحزن بن أبي وهب وعمد قيس بن المحسر إلى أم قرفة وهي عجوز كبيرة فقتلها قتلا عنيفا ربط بين رجليها حبلا ثم ربطها بين بعيرين ثم زجرهما فذهبا فقطعاها وقتل النعمان وعبيد الله ابني مسعدة بن حكمة بن مالك بن بدر وقدم زيد بن حارثة من وجهه ذلك فقرع باب النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقام إليه عريانا يجر ثوبه حتى اعتنقه وقبله وسايله فأخبره بما ظفره الله به.
[This message has been edited by JOSHUA (edited 03 September 2005).]
The contents of this site do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the Ministry
That is a nice comment mentioned in every page of your source , which makes me ask does it belong to that ministry.
Even that Arabic written source is hard to understand, it is just full of killings and mutilating. I don’t trust your sources, and I would not look up for stories that would not make sense neither I would trust the tellers.
For those who don't speak Arabic, and even if you speak it, you will think you are reading another language, any way her post in short, saying that Muslims are professional in tormenting and killing their captives of war.
11. So Allah saved them from the evil of that Day, and gave them Nadratan (a light of beauty) and joy.
æóÌóÒóÇåõã ÈöãóÇ ÕóÈóÑõæÇ ÌóäøóÉð æóÍóÑöíÑðÇ
The point that sheds light in this regard is that Islam stipulates that captives should be treated well and that their human rights should be observed. Moreover, the Qur'an treats the captives on an equal footing with the weak categories of society that deserve sympathy and charity such as the orphans and the needy. Allah the Almighty describes the righteous who are worthy of His pleasure and entering Paradise:
quote:Originally posted by Sam on line: The contents of this site do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the Ministry
That is a nice comment mentioned in every page of your source , which makes me ask does it belong to that ministry.
Even that Arabic written source is hard to understand, it is just full of killings and mutilating. I don’t trust your sources, and I would not look up for stories that would not make sense neither I would trust the tellers.
For those who don't speak Arabic, and even if you speak it, you will think you are reading another language, any way her post in short, saying that Muslims are professional in tormenting and killing their captives of war.
11. So Allah saved them from the evil of that Day, and gave them Nadratan (a light of beauty) and joy.
æóÌóÒóÇåõã ÈöãóÇ ÕóÈóÑõæÇ ÌóäøóÉð æóÍóÑöíÑðÇ
The point that sheds light in this regard is that Islam stipulates that captives should be treated well and that their human rights should be observed. Moreover, the Qur'an treats the captives on an equal footing with the weak categories of society that deserve sympathy and charity such as the orphans and the needy. Allah the Almighty describes the righteous who are worthy of His pleasure and entering Paradise:
Instead of all this why don't you do yourself a favour, forget the websites and go buy the hard copies of these books and read it yourself, they teach these books in Azhar "The most respected Musilm University in the world" and include it's references in Muslim text books, it's no surprise.
راجع السيرة النبوية لابن هشام .. باب غزوة زيد بن حارثة بنى فزارة و مصاب أم قرفة
راجع الطبقات الكبرى لإبن سعد .. باب سرية زيد بن حارثة إلى أم قرفة بوادي القرى
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JOSHUA: [b] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Sam on line: [b][QUOTE]Originally posted by ben_elias: [B] [QUOTE][b]
(Qur'an 50:38) And verily We created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six Days, and naught of weariness touched Us. (Qur'an 50:38) What are these 6 days equals to? 6000 YEARS or (6 DAYS) (God is the All Knower) he says "Be!" and it is. So I would believe they are 6 days of our count. However, if we go to such a topic, we will exhaust our minds, because we are talking about something beyond our minds and ability to understand. so going after infidels will not make us any better. But let's consider some verses which infidels use to confuse Muslims. (Qur'an 50:38) And verily We created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six Days, and naught of weariness touched Us. (Qur'an 50:38) Not only Earth was created in 6 days, but also the skies and what in between the earth and Skies. Do skies here refer to the sky we know only (the atmosphere of earth), or + outer space, galaxies separated by millions of light years distance. There are 7 skies mentioned in the Qu'ran Of which human beings perceive the outer space as extending unlimited space. (2:29) åõæó ÇáøóÐöí ÎóáóÞó áóßõã ãøóÇ Ýöí ÇáÃóÑúÖö ÌóãöíÚÇð Ëõãøó ÇÓúÊóæóì Åöáóì ÇáÓøóãóÇÁ ÝóÓóæøóÇåõäøó ÓóÈúÚó ÓóãóÇæóÇÊò æóåõæó Èößõáøö ÔóíúÁò Úóáöíãñ He it is who created for you all that is on earth. Then He Istawa (rose over) towards the heaven (sky) and made them seven heavens (skies) and He is the All-Knower of everything. (2.29) (65.12) Çááøóåõ ÇáøóÐöí ÎóáóÞó ÓóÈúÚó ÓóãóÇæóÇÊò æóãöäó ÇáúÃóÑúÖö ãöËúáóåõäøó íóÊóäóÒøóáõ ÇáúÃóãúÑõ Èóíúäóåõäøó áöÊóÚúáóãõæÇ Ãóäøó Çááøóåó Úóáóì ßõáøö ÔóíúÁò ÞóÏöíÑñ æóÃóäøó Çááøóåó ÞóÏú ÃóÍóÇØó Èößõáøö ÔóíúÁò ÚöáúãðÇ It is Allah Who has created seven heavens and of the earth the like thereof (i.e. seven). His Command descends between them (heavens and earth), that you may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah surrounds (comprehends) all things in (His) Knowledge. Note: As I understand here, there are other seven planets like the earth exist in the 7 skies created. (32.4:6) Çááøóåõ ÇáøóÐöí ÎóáóÞó ÇáÓøóãóÇæóÇÊö æóÇáúÃóÑúÖó æóãóÇ ÈóíúäóåõãóÇ Ýöí ÓöÊøóÉö ÃóíøóÇãò Ëõãøó ÇÓúÊóæóì Úóáóì ÇáúÚóÑúÔö ãóÇ áóßõã ãøöä Ïõæäöåö ãöä æóáöíøò æóáóÇ ÔóÝöíÚò ÃóÝóáóÇ ÊóÊóÐóßøóÑõæäó
4. Allah it is He Who has created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in six Days. Then He Istawa (rose over) the Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). You have none, besides Him, as a protector or an intercessor. Will you not then remember (or be admonished)?
5. He arranges the affair (command) (referring to every matter concerning earth) from the heavens to the earth, then Ta3rog (ascend) to Him (referring to that affair or command), in a Day, weights a thousand years of your reckoning (i.e. reckoning of our present world's time).
Note -(The amount of time that would take the affair to ascend) I hope it is clear.
Ðóáößó ÚóÇáöãõ ÇáúÛóíúÈö æóÇáÔøóåóÇÏóÉö ÇáúÚóÒöíÒõ ÇáÑøóÍöíãõ 6. That is He, the All Knower of the unseen and the seen, the AllMighty, the Most Merciful.
(22:47) æóíóÓúÊóÚúÌöáõæäóßó ÈöÇáúÚóÐóÇÈö æóáóä íõÎúáöÝó Çááøóåõ æóÚúÏóåõ æóÅöäøó íóæúãðÇ ÚöäÏó ÑóÈøößó ßóÃóáúÝö ÓóäóÉò ãøöãøóÇ ÊóÚõÏøõæäó "And they ask you to hasten on the torment! And Allah fails not His Promise. And verily, a day with your Lord is as a thousand years of what you reckon" (22:47).
The disbelievers here asking the prophet(PBUH) to rush the time of torment(the time when they meet their judgment), (like mocking the prophet(PBUH),So God is saying , the time which disbelievers perceive far, is actually so near (comparing to how time is perceived to God comparing to our reckoning). It is clear here that a day with our God equals 1000 years of our reckoning.
(70.4) ÊóÚúÑõÌõ ÇáúãóáóÇÆößóÉõ æóÇáÑøõæÍõ Åöáóíúåö Ýöí íóæúãò ßóÇäó ãöÞúÏóÇÑõåõ ÎóãúÓöíäó ÃóáúÝó ÓóäóÉò The angels and the Spirit TA3ROG (ascend) to Him in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years [In a day weights fifty thousand years] (70:4). (TA3ROG- Means to ascend in a zigzag way (or not straight way-SCIENTIFIC TERM WHEN GOING IN THE OUTER SPACE, YOU CAN'T ASCEND OR DESCEND in a straight way)
Part of JOSHUA article: "The angels ascend to Him in a day, the measure of which is fifty thousand years." This verse actually seems to be discussing the speed of travel for angels. Possibly it is saying that the angels can travel in a day, the amount of space it would take others 50,000 years to cover. My goal is not to offer alternative interpretations to this myth. However, I dispute the claim that the this verse is saying a day equals 50,000 years because such a thing contradicts other parts of the Qur'an!
Till here the explanation in the article might seem fine, but not quite satisfying. It is clear that the 6 days of which earth and skies were created have nothing to do with measuring the speed of angels in ascending. The day here refers to"the 50000 years which are the amount of time (for us to understand) it would take the spirit and the angles to ascend. It is not a measure of speed comparing to others … And God knows best.
So what is the sequence of creation? In other words who was created first Adam&Eve or earth and skies and what between? Cause the earth took much time evolving,we need to consider carefully the coming verses. (2.28:39) ßóíúÝó ÊóßúÝõÑõæäó ÈöÇááøóåö æóßõäÊõãú ÃóãúæóÇÊÇð ÝóÃóÍúíóÇßõãú Ëõãøó íõãöíÊõßõãú Ëõãøó íõÍúíöíßõãú Ëõãøó Åöáóíúåö ÊõÑúÌóÚõæäó
28. How can you disbelieve in Allah? Seeing that you were dead and He gave you life. Then He will give you death, then again will bring you to life (on the Day of Resurrection) and then unto Him you will return.
29. He is Who created for you all that is on earth. Then He Istawa (rose over) towards the heaven and made them seven heavens and He is the All-Knower of everything.
30. And when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I'm placing a Khalifa(successor) on earth. They said: "Will You place who will make mischief(spoil-ruin) therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks and sanctify You." He (Allah) said: "I know that which you do not know."
33. He said: "O Adam! Inform them of their names," and when he had informed them of their names, He said: "Did I not tell you that I know the unseen of the heavens and the earth, and I know what you reveal and what you have been concealing?"
34. And when We said to the angels: "Prostrate (kneel down) yourselves to Adam." And they prostrated except Iblis (Satan), he refused and arrogated (defied arrogantly) and was one of the disbelievers (disobedient to Allah).
35. And We said: "O Adam! Dwell(reside) you and your wife in the Paradise and eat both of you freely with pleasure and delight of things therein as wherever you will, but come not near this tree or you both will be of the wrong-doers."
36. Then the Shaytan (Satan) made them slip therefrom (the Paradise), and got them out from that in which they were. We said: "Get down, groups of you are enemies for one another. For you on earth a dwelling place and an enjoyment for a time."
37. Then Adam received from his Lord Words. And his Lord pardoned him (accepted his repentance). Verily, He is the One Who forgives (accepts repentance), the Most Merciful.
38. We said: "Get down all of you from it (the Paradise), then whenever there comes to you Guidance from Me, and whoever follows My Guidance, there shall be no fear on them, nor shall they grieve.
39. But those who disbelieve and belie Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) such are the dwellers of the Fire, they shall abide therein forever.
It is clear from the verses that the earth, the skies, and what between were created before Adam and Eve. Earth first, then the heavens, then what between, then Adam&Eve. Then God was telling the angels that he is making a successor on earth, which makes us ask? To put a successor means that there has been a created thing on earth to be replaced by? Which are creatures that God created on earth long before Adam and Eve resided the earth? (Species that were dominating the earth before the succession of human beings) At that time angels did know nothing about Adam and Eve or how that specie behaves. They had only ideas about the species that dominated the earth which are characterized by spoiling the earth and shedding blood which are characteristics of creatures like dinosaurs' species that followed each other in dominating the earth before total extinction. So the angels expected the successor to be the same as previous. CAUSE THEY don’t know, but what God taught them . So they exclaimed why not us to be successors and we are who we glorify you with praises and thanks and sanctify you. From that we get that the earth was in the evolution eras long before Human kind was created and dwelled the earth, so earth and skies were already created but were going in an evolution process long before Adam and Eve created. I know there are other points of view regarding these verses, I will be glad to hear other explanations as well.
And for kafir and Ben elias and those alike check your end (22.51) æóÇáøóÐöíäó ÓóÚóæúÇ Ýöí ÂíóÇÊöäóÇ ãõÚóÇÌöÒöíäó ÃõæúáóÆößó ÃóÕúÍóÇÈõ ÇáúÌóÍöíãö But those who strive against Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), to frustrate and obstruct them, they will be dwellers of the Hell-fire.
[This message has been edited by Sam on line (edited 06 September 2005).]
The Qur'an is not giving human beings detailed information about facts around us which we can't see unless by continuous search or advanced science. For embryo part, regardless of claims of knowledge of such stages 450 years earlier which really would not make sense. The stages of the embryo mentioned in the Qu'ran are precise, but not detailed. Giving full details of such stages tears apart why people should look for truth, and struggle for knowledge. Regardless of Dr. Moor or whomever opinion, God is showing us that he is the one who created us and every thing around, so giving us hints to search and look to be certain.
The thing is that human beings are trying to comprehend and translate the Qur'an according to the level of knowledge they attained, but what if these stages mentioned in the Qur'an were upside down? Despite wrong translations, we still have the source to go back to.
A part of an attacking article:
The Koran says in16:4 "He has created man from a sperm-drop", but this was understood about 2000 years before the Koran, for the Bible says, "Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother." (Genesis 38:9) That man was created from dust is recorded in Gen 2.
ÎóáóÞó ÇáÅöäÓóÇäó ãöä äøõØúÝóÉò ÝóÅöÐóÇ åõæó ÎóÕöíãñ ãøõÈöíäñ (16.4) Created the human being from Nutfah, henceforth, becomes a clear opponent.
I believe that sperm part is known not only 2000 years ago but can go ever beginning of human beings who have noticed surely why a woman get pregnant? Seeds of the male. But Qur'an did not say sperm, nor mix of male and female drops, he said words which are unique in Arabic that leaves you to search, Nutfa, al'ka ,mod3.a ….these words are stages' hints which hold one characteristic for each stage. What ever added to translation are pure modifications.
Another part of that article Scientific errors related to embryology are contained in the Koran. In 86:6-7 the Koran says, "He is created from a drop emitted- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs". This echoes the scientific error of Hippocrates who believe semen originates from all the fluid in the body, starting from the brain down the spinal chord, before passing through the kidneys and finally the testicles into the penis. (Hippocratic Writings, Penguin Classics, 1983, p. 317)
(Actually the article verses translation is far from accuracy: Simply there are 2 words mentioned in that verse: el solb wa (and ) el tra'eb
(Qur'an 86:6-7) ÎõáöÞó ãöä ãøóÇÁ ÏóÇÝöÞò 6. Created from a gushing water
íóÎúÑõÌõ ãöä Èóíúäö ÇáÕøõáúÈö æóÇáÊøóÑóÇÆöÈö 7. Going out between el solb wa el tra'eb.
el solb ……. Means the hard eltra'eb…… Means the lenient or the soft as I understand, and God knows.
These 2 words are far from backbone and the ribs which are human understanding of that 2 words at that time; and whatever explanations comes after are pure human made sentences of understanding. Explanations are subject to hold mistakes, because they are made according to the understanding of human beings. I guess it is better if we have a translated Qu'ran which sticks to the original words, and then an explanation part should be added in the end of the page separate from the translation which holds Arabic words as well. Especially Arabic words that don't have exact synonyms in English, should not be translated, and hence should be explained apart so that people don't get confused.
The other verse I mentioned describing how it is in the outer space and was predicting human kind to go through space and sky. And that was surely confusing for Muslims 1400 years ago. The surrah is El-rahman (55.33). It says : You assembly of genie and mankind if you can go through the territories of skies and earth; Go through, but you can't not go through unless by sultan (powerful authority) (of God)(33). So of which (blessings-bounties) of God you belie (deny) (don't believe) (34). Sending on you shawaz (speedy fragments) of fire and copper, and you won't succeed (win) (35). So of which (blessings-bounties) of god you belie (deny) (don't believe) (36).
Let's see my point here….. The Qor'an has foretold that human beings will go not only through territories of earth but also through boundaries and territories of the sky and space as well. The Qur'an mentioned (shawaz ) (which means speedy fragments)which now known as asteroids which are just known for us recently.
These verses are nowadays enough for some people to believe in God and Islam. People 1400 years ago would not expect that one day humankind will have airplanes and spacecrafts, to go through territories of skies, but still they believed in Islam; because surely they had other aspects that they understood well, from which they found the right path. I really don't know how they understood that verses by that time.
If Qur'an is a false thing (man created), why it would state such verses (which would definitely encourage people to disbelieve rather than to believe at that time). It would have been logical for people at that time to believe it, if the verses were directed only to the genie; Cause it was quite impossible for humankind to go through skies.
These verses are not only scientific facts in their essence; they are ways, hints of knowledge to make people seek knowledge.
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Do you think if you prove that the Quran is miraculous (which clearly it is not- and I can prove that to you) but fail to disprove the charges of murder, assassination, pedophilia, genocide, theft, etc against Muhammad he is still a prophet of God? Let us suppose you prove the Quran is miraculous but Muhammad is a villain. Who do you think the author of the Quran would be? Don’t you think may be then the Quran is the work of Satan? I believe the character of Muhammad is crucial. Right becomes wrong with Muhammad and wrong becomes right. Would you follow a murderer if he can impress you with a few tricks?
Posts: 597 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by JOSHUA: Instead of all this why don't you do yourself a favour, forget the websites and go buy the hard copies of these books and read it yourself, they teach these books in Azhar "The most respected Musilm University in the world" and include it's references in Muslim text books, it's no surprise.
quote:Originally posted by Troubles101: Now we are suppose to say "Impressive"?
What did your post add to the context, if you agree with me then fine, if you could prove me wrong go ahead ...here is the cyberspace ready blank, if you don't do neither of the above then you should........you know the rest.....
quote:Originally posted by JOSHUA: What did your post add to the context, if you agree with me then fine, if you could prove me wrong go ahead ...here is the cyberspace ready blank, if you don't do neither of the above then you should........you know the rest.....
go to hell, no? tsk tsk tsk! Am I not in the right track to there anyway? Prove you wrong? Will that make any difference? I don't even think you even touched the books you're quoting from. you probably did the same job of your fellow Christians copying sllected texts from Anti Islam web sites.
I will only respond this time as I got some time to waste over this, first the story mentioned was told by Sa'd through Muhammad Ibn Ishaq who in return narrated it without Isnad which makes it not reliable , the origin of the story is Al Waqidi who according to Scholars of Hadith is not trusted, Al Bukhary didn't accept his Hadith, Imam Ahmad said he is a liar, Al Nisa'e said there are four people who lied about the prophet and between them was Al waqidi. Imam Al Zahabi said there is an Ijma' between scholars about rejecting Hadiths of Al waqidi...If you want to quote our sources you got to learn how it was written, for example Tabari in his history said he didn't check behind the stories he was told but only narrated them and left them for others to come and check the Isnad of those narrations...finally why would that be any problem to someone who believe that Jesus commanded his prophets to kill young babies with swords? ...Enough Said
quote:Originally posted by Troubles101: go to hell, no? tsk tsk tsk! Am I not in the right track to there anyway? Prove you wrong? Will that make any difference? I don't even think you even touched the books you're quoting from. you probably did the same job of your fellow Christians copying sllected texts from Anti Islam web sites.
I will only respond this time as I got some time to waste over this, first the story mentioned was told by Sa'd through Muhammad Ibn Ishaq who in return narrated it without Isnad which makes it not reliable , the origin of the story is Al Waqidi who according to Scholars of Hadith is not trusted, Al Bukhary didn't accept his Hadith, Imam Ahmad said he is a liar, Al Nisa'e said there are four people who lied about the prophet and between them was Al waqidi. Imam Al Zahabi said there is an Ijma' between scholars about rejecting Hadiths of Al waqidi...If you want to quote our sources you got to learn how it was written, for example Tabari in his history said he didn't check behind the stories he was told but only narrated them and left them for others to come and check the Isnad of those narrations...finally why would that be any problem to someone who believe that Jesus commanded his prophets to kill young babies with swords? ...Enough Said
So basically you're saying that the books they teach AT THIS MOMENT in AZHAR by Muslim Schoolars are NOT trusted, Thank you very much that's ever worse....
Leave Jesus out of it, I'm here with you from scratch trying to teach your ISLAM first, when we are done doing that, we could move on and talk about Jesus...
[This message has been edited by JOSHUA (edited 10 September 2005).]
quote:Originally posted by ben_elias: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Sam on line [b]
Hi,
Thank you for your post.
You say I basically go around bashing Islam mindlessly, without understanding or without learning what the real Islam is because pretty much I just want to prove Islam wrong. That’s an interesting comment because if you actually read my articles you will see that I ask people to go through them and to show me where I have erred, never refusing anyone to enter the debate and you call this Islam bashing?
We are on the religious forum of Egyptsearch.com so what do you want to talk about? Korat el Kadem? The weather? What colour underwear you are wearing? Of course we want to discuss religion! Right now I have accepted someone’s challenge to Christianity, is this Islamic bashing? I will accept any question on Christianity if I can answer it and if it is not apart of a vis-à-vis response to my Islamic inquiry. You call this is this Islamic bashing?
I have never forced anyone to leave any religion nor have I forced anyone into my religion. I have I questioned the religion with cause and proof and not to prove that I am the best and sophisticated, but Mohammed has made the statement that he is the final and greatest profit so don’t I have the right to question him and his beliefs? What if I have contradictory beliefs using Islamic sources, am I allowed to voice them? What if I was right or is that Islam bashing too?
Why don’t you actually read what I write and see that I ask people to see what I have to say and why I have to say it? No where do I mindless bash Islam but I voice my opinions (take me as a laity) against Islam or do you want me to mindless accept it? If you actually read my posts I have never made any personal comment without proof. If you had actually read my articles you wouldn’t have the embarrassment of starting this thread.
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Sam on line [b] Well Islam doesn't need censorship or to defend itself ; neither does Christianity or Judaism , cause we have our minds to decide , we have lots of sources to read, people who are here can read and write otherwise they would not be here. So please give us a break ,and show some respect.
I don’t believe what you have written is correct so I will voice my opinion objectively and I hope you don’t see this as bashing Islam.
You say that Islam does not need censorship but Saudi Arabia and Pakistan which are the most Islamic countries in the world are the most heavily censored countries in the world. Why would Saudi Arabia censor anything if it has nothing to hide? Why would you get killed if you criticize (not insult) the self proclaimed prophet of God if Islam has no problems with other people’s objective responses.
I assume that you are Egyptian or Arabic as you used the word ‘kafir’ correctly so you should tell me, what would happen to me if I read out what I write on the streets of Cairo? The same would not happen if you publicly criticized Christianity in Melbourne, Australia. Period. Isn’t killing someone or threatening to kill or imprison someone who dares question the prophet’s claims publicly a form of censorship?
What about apostasy? If someone leaves a religion it will obviously because he/she finds problems with it. By killing them as soon as a follower has the chance is a form of censorship, true? What if your Koran calls for the killing of Apostates (2.27, 2.39, 9.66, 9.74 and this one – Sahih Hadis Vol. 9, Book 83, #17)? What about the Sharia which is based on the Sahih Hadis calls for the killing or imprisonment of Apostates? Ol’li, How then does Islam not advocate censorship?
God bless, Benjamin Elias Zaki_boxing@yahoo.com
[This message has been edited by ben_elias (edited 24 August 2005).][/B][/QUOTE]
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So when you wanna lie , try to change your style..... you are the teacher here, so train more So you were trying to prove muslims are liars , while you are the leader of lies
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Topic: Before 2016 the following things will happen (unbelievable) MaliG18 Member Posts: 85 Registered: Jul 2005 posted 28 October 2005 10:40 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -wellto me anyway. But apparently, these prophecies have an Islamic-basis. The following things are apparently qadr according to an Islamic scholar: 1) Somalia will become a rich and prosperous country and all the Somalis all over the world will return there (in 5 to 10 years time). It will be an oil-rich state, with uranium, gold etc among its assets. It will be the only counrty in the arab league which will not be at the mercy of the West (whom will be fighting with muslims in Yemen, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon ......etc. Muslim refugees from all over the arab world will travel to Somalia to reside therein. Somalia will provide provisions for the muslim soldiers fighting against the Kafirun. The world at this this time eill be Muslims against non-muslims (there is a hadith to actually prove that muslims will fight against non-muslims on arab land). This major jihad will apparently be started by goings-on in the Bosnian-chechen region (eastern-europe).
2) America will be completely destroyed by a shooting star. Geologists have actually confirmed that a meteorite will fall somewhere in or neal the atlantic.
3) An Egyptian president will make the whole of Egypt soldiers (practically) and send them into Israel. the soldiers will kill the jews. If a jew attempts to hide behine a rock, the rock will yell " There's a jew hiding behind me". Do you guys know the great big wall that Israel has built, they've built it as a preparation for their forthcoming war with Egypt. They know that it's coming.
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posted 28 October 2005 10:40 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -wellto me anyway. But apparently, these prophecies have an Islamic-basis. The following things are apparently qadr according to an Islamic scholar: 1) Somalia will become a rich and prosperous country and all the Somalis all over the world will return there (in 5 to 10 years time). It will be an oil-rich state, with uranium, gold etc among its assets. It will be the only counrty in the arab league which will not be at the mercy of the West (whom will be fighting with muslims in Yemen, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon ......etc. Muslim refugees from all over the arab world will travel to Somalia to reside therein. Somalia will provide provisions for the muslim soldiers fighting against the Kafirun. The world at this this time eill be Muslims against non-muslims (there is a hadith to actually prove that muslims will fight against non-muslims on arab land). This major jihad will apparently be started by goings-on in the Bosnian-chechen region (eastern-europe).
2) America will be completely destroyed by a shooting star. Geologists have actually confirmed that a meteorite will fall somewhere in or neal the atlantic.
3) An Egyptian president will make the whole of Egypt soldiers (practically) and send them into Israel. the soldiers will kill the jews. If a jew attempts to hide behine a rock, the rock will yell " There's a jew hiding behind me". Do you guys know the great big wall that Israel has built, they've built it as a preparation for their forthcoming war with Egypt. They know that it's coming.
I really hope all of this happens. Inshaalaah!
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Nooralhaq20055 Member Posts: 605 Registered: Oct 2005 posted 28 October 2005 10:45 AM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by MaliG18: -wellto me anyway. But apparently, these prophecies have an Islamic-basis. The following things are apparently qadr according to an Islamic scholar: 1) Somalia will become a rich and prosperous country and all the Somalis all over the world will return there (in 5 to 10 years time). It will be an oil-rich state, with uranium, gold etc among its assets. It will be the only counrty in the arab league which will not be at the mercy of the West (whom will be fighting with muslims in Yemen, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon ......etc. Muslim refugees from all over the arab world will travel to Somalia to reside therein. Somalia will provide provisions for the muslim soldiers fighting against the Kafirun. The world at this this time eill be Muslims against non-muslims (there is a hadith to actually prove that muslims will fight against non-muslims on arab land). This major jihad will apparently be started by goings-on in the Bosnian-chechen region (eastern-europe).
2) America will be completely destroyed by a shooting star. Geologists have actually confirmed that a meteorite will fall somewhere in or neal the atlantic.
3) An Egyptian president will make the whole of Egypt soldiers (practically) and send them into Israel. the soldiers will kill the jews. If a jew attempts to hide behine a rock, the rock will yell " There's a jew hiding behind me". Do you guys know the great big wall that Israel has built, they've built it as a preparation for their forthcoming war with Egypt. They know that it's coming.
I read there is a type of tree grown in Israel, that will not sell the Jews out. All other trees will proclaim the Jew is hiding behind it, because the Jews do not fight face to face, except for one type of tree. This one type of tree will not sell them out, and since the Jews came back to this land, they have been planting these trees all over...gosh I can't remember what type of tree it is....
quote:Originally posted by kafir4ever: If you take away that prejudice from your eyes you would see that there many hate messages laden in Quran that any decent human being would want to get rid of them. Would you call those who fight against bigotry and hate hateful people? If so i am guilty as charged. I am against those violent teachings in Islam, not against the muslims, these teachings of Quran are like disease where muslims are the patients.
[This message has been edited by kafir4ever (edited 22 August 2005).]
you got to make your mind since I just finished reading one of your peacful posts where you said you hate muslims but you like Egyptians.. WHY DO NOT YOU JUST SAY IT ..YOU HATE ISLAM ,MUSLIMS,ARABS,EGYPTIANS AND EVEN HATE YOURSELF...WE WILL UNDERSTAND..WE MAY EVEN CONTRIBUTE IN PAYING FOR PSYCHIC THEREPY...IT IS TIME FOR ZAKAT EL FETER.
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وبه تكنى, وكل أولادها كانوا من الرؤساء في قومهم. كانت من أعز العرب, وفيها يضرب المثل في العزة والمنعة فيقال: أعز من أم قرفة وكانت إذا تشاجرت غطفان بعثت خمارها على رمح فينصب بينهم فيصطلحون. كانت تؤلب على رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فأرسل في السنة السادسة للهجرة زيد بن حارثة في سرية فقتلها قتلا عنيفا, فقد ربط برجليها حبلا, ثم ربطه بين بعيرين حتى شقها شقا. وكانت عجوزا كبيرة, وحمل رأسها إلى المدينة ونصب فيها ليعلم قتلها.
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