024.006 YUSUFALI: And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;
024.007 YUSUFALI: And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.
024.008 YUSUFALI: But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie;
024.009 YUSUFALI: And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.
the above 4 verses are to do with man and wife accusing each other that are unable to produce 4 witnesses they can swear 4 times themselves but be aware the 5th time invokes the wrath of Allah if there is lying going on.
'ugh' So a lie repeated four times becomes the truth?
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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5. excepting [from this interdict] only those who afterwards repent and made amends: (8) for, behold, God is much forgiving, a dispenser of grace. Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
But Shah that does not negate the previous verse. It simple gives an exception to those who have made amends.
Can you imagine a jealous husband suspects his wife and accuses her of adultery? Do you not think such a man would go ahead and say it four times?
-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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posted
This is saying if he does not have four witnesses he can repeat it four times.
"024.006 YUSUFALI: And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;"
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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024.006 YUSUFALI: And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;
024.007 YUSUFALI: And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.
024.008 YUSUFALI: But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie;
024.009 YUSUFALI: And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.
the above 4 verses are to do with man and wife accusing each other that are unable to produce 4 witnesses they can swear 4 times themselves but be aware the 5th time invokes the wrath of Allah if there is lying going on.
'ugh' So a lie repeated four times becomes the truth?
of course not! A muslim swearing BY ALLAH knows damn well if he is swearing BY ALLAH and telling a lie, he knows the punishment will come eventually FROM ALLAH, as the last verse says. Swearing by Allah 4 times does NOT make it true if it is a lie, but if it is a lie then it WILL invoke the wrath of God. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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024.002 YUSUFALI: The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
adultery and fornication the punishment is 100 stripes for BOTH man and woman BUT adultery and fornication are WILLING ACTS, not rape.
My problem with the above verse. "Let not compassion move you"
its advice only. If you choose to let your husband/wife/daughter/son commit adultery and fornication without punishment then we know the consequences will be that everyone chooses to do it also = single mums, kids with no dad, AIDS, VD, everyone bonking whoever they fall into bed with. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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024.002 YUSUFALI: The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
adultery and fornication the punishment is 100 stripes for BOTH man and woman BUT adultery and fornication are WILLING ACTS, not rape.
My problem with the above verse. "Let not compassion move you"
its advice only. If you choose to let your husband/wife/daughter/son commit adultery and fornication without punishment then we know the consequences will be that everyone chooses to do it also = single mums, kids with no dad, AIDS, VD, everyone bonking whoever they fall into bed with.
Your discreption sounds like an ordenary christmas party in a danish compagny Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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024.006 YUSUFALI: And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;
024.007 YUSUFALI: And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.
024.008 YUSUFALI: But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie;
024.009 YUSUFALI: And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.
the above 4 verses are to do with man and wife accusing each other that are unable to produce 4 witnesses they can swear 4 times themselves but be aware the 5th time invokes the wrath of Allah if there is lying going on.
'ugh' So a lie repeated four times becomes the truth?
of course not! A muslim swearing BY ALLAH knows damn well if he is swearing BY ALLAH and telling a lie, he knows the punishment will come eventually FROM ALLAH, as the last verse says. Swearing by Allah 4 times does NOT make it true if it is a lie, but if it is a lie then it WILL invoke the wrath of God.
Give me a break. A liar will lie, once, twice, four times. One lie is just as bad as four. Sin is sin. If they are not concerned about the wrath of Allah to tell one lie then they will not be concerned to tell four. Also, a man (or woman) may think they are telling the truth and it just be his/her own jealously.
This is not justice, no matter which way you look at it.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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024.002 YUSUFALI: The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
adultery and fornication the punishment is 100 stripes for BOTH man and woman BUT adultery and fornication are WILLING ACTS, not rape.
My problem with the above verse. "Let not compassion move you"
its advice only. If you choose to let your husband/wife/daughter/son commit adultery and fornication without punishment then we know the consequences will be that everyone chooses to do it also = single mums, kids with no dad, AIDS, VD, everyone bonking whoever they fall into bed with.
Choose to let? Are you understanding what you are saying? Ayisha, I'm shocked.
edited to include: I also don't understand why you say that it is advice only.
It clearly says: "flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case..."
Does not sound like advice to me. It sounds like it is telling you what to do.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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posted
ayisha is saying that flogging is cool allah wants adulterers to be flogged and ayisha is cool with that as it is in the holy quran to ayisha stoning is bad as it is from hadith. it isnt in the quran allah doesnt want adulterers to be stoned just flogged lots flogging good stoning bad now what about hands being cut off? is ayisha cool with that?
Posts: 82 | Registered: Aug 2009
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024.002 YUSUFALI: The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
adultery and fornication the punishment is 100 stripes for BOTH man and woman BUT adultery and fornication are WILLING ACTS, not rape.
My problem with the above verse. "Let not compassion move you"
its advice only. If you choose to let your husband/wife/daughter/son commit adultery and fornication without punishment then we know the consequences will be that everyone chooses to do it also = single mums, kids with no dad, AIDS, VD, everyone bonking whoever they fall into bed with.
Choose to let? Are you understanding what you are saying? Ayisha, I'm shocked.
without punishment of_gold.
quote:edited to include: I also don't understand why you say that it is advice only.
It clearly says: "flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case..."
Does not sound like advice to me. It sounds like it is telling you what to do.
It is telling you what Allah has decided is better for you The Quran AND the previous Books are all this is the rule, this is the punishment for not doing it, this is the punishment man can inflict for some things, this is the punishment God will inflict and this is the rewards obviously we have free will to choose to do it or not, but we know the rewards and punishments.
The above you quoted is the punishment for committing adultery or fornication, which in ALL the Books is wrong and in Torah it is actually stoning. Muslims know that they are accountable for their own crimes with God, they would have a different way of looking at things if they also thought someone else had died so they can commit any sin they choose to without punishment. The way you are looking at it is from that angle as you believe Jesus died for your sins and the sins of the world, muslims dont believe that and believe we are all accountable to God for our own sins so the Quran is telling them there IS punishment and there ARE rules OR you CHOOSE to ignore that and do as you please anyway.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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024.006 YUSUFALI: And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth;
024.007 YUSUFALI: And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.
024.008 YUSUFALI: But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie;
024.009 YUSUFALI: And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth.
the above 4 verses are to do with man and wife accusing each other that are unable to produce 4 witnesses they can swear 4 times themselves but be aware the 5th time invokes the wrath of Allah if there is lying going on.
'ugh' So a lie repeated four times becomes the truth?
of course not! A muslim swearing BY ALLAH knows damn well if he is swearing BY ALLAH and telling a lie, he knows the punishment will come eventually FROM ALLAH, as the last verse says. Swearing by Allah 4 times does NOT make it true if it is a lie, but if it is a lie then it WILL invoke the wrath of God.
Give me a break. A liar will lie, once, twice, four times. One lie is just as bad as four. Sin is sin. If they are not concerned about the wrath of Allah to tell one lie then they will not be concerned to tell four. Also, a man (or woman) may think they are telling the truth and it just be his/her own jealously.
This is not justice, no matter which way you look at it.
No man or woman will think they are telling the truth and it just be their own jealousy , if they are jealous then they KNOW they are lying.
I agree if they are going to lie once or twice they will continue to lie but it is irrelavant that they are not concerned about the wrath of God. Thats like saying an atheist wont meet their maker on judgement day because they dont believe it.
With respect of_gold, as I said in my previous post you cannot possibly look at any of this from the perspective of a muslim who does believe in Quran. of course it will all seem totally obscure to you as you prefer to follow Christianity because its 'more peaceful' according to the writings of Paul. From my perspective the idea that a man died for me to commit as many sins as I wish as long as I believe in him, is also just as obscure.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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024.002 YUSUFALI: The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
adultery and fornication the punishment is 100 stripes for BOTH man and woman BUT adultery and fornication are WILLING ACTS, not rape.
My problem with the above verse. "Let not compassion move you"
its advice only. If you choose to let your husband/wife/daughter/son commit adultery and fornication without punishment then we know the consequences will be that everyone chooses to do it also = single mums, kids with no dad, AIDS, VD, everyone bonking whoever they fall into bed with.
Choose to let? Are you understanding what you are saying? Ayisha, I'm shocked.
without punishment of_gold.
quote:edited to include: I also don't understand why you say that it is advice only.
It clearly says: "flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case..."
Does not sound like advice to me. It sounds like it is telling you what to do.
It is telling you what Allah has decided is better for you The Quran AND the previous Books are all this is the rule, this is the punishment for not doing it, this is the punishment man can inflict for some things, this is the punishment God will inflict and this is the rewards obviously we have free will to choose to do it or not, but we know the rewards and punishments.
The above you quoted is the punishment for committing adultery or fornication, which in ALL the Books is wrong and in Torah it is actually stoning. Muslims know that they are accountable for their own crimes with God, they would have a different way of looking at things if they also thought someone else had died so they can commit any sin they choose to without punishment. The way you are looking at it is from that angle as you believe Jesus died for your sins and the sins of the world, muslims dont believe that and believe we are all accountable to God for our own sins so the Quran is telling them there IS punishment and there ARE rules OR you CHOOSE to ignore that and do as you please anyway.
Apparently the Quran allows sinful men to make judgment and give punishment. While the Bible puts it in Gods hand. Jesus said for him who is without sin to cast the first stone.
Ayisha, you cannot believe in both the Bible and the Quran. It is impossible because they contradict each other. Muslims have told you this and Christians have told you this. So for you to continue to say that the message is the same in all the books is completely wrong. It is NOT the same message. On this issue the Muslims who say that the text of the other books were changed have the stronger argument because again I am telling you that you cannot believe in both.
If you were to believe the Bible, you will believe that there are no prophets of God to follow Jesus. You would know that that there will be prophets that come after Jesus who have a form of Godliness but deny the powers there in and that these prophets will take the power out of Gods hands and put it into mans. You would also understand that Paul did not write the Bible. You contridict yourself saying that the Bible is from God and that Paul wrote it.
The Bible was inspired by God. The ten commandments were written with Gods hand. It fits together from beginning to end even though many different holy men were used to write it. The Quran was recited by Muhammad(pbuh) for other men to write down. It contains bits of the Bible and the Torah but is not a continuation of them. If it were, the Quran would also contain both the Torah and the Bible. It does not be cause Muslims believe that they were corrupted and God had to make a redo.
We both know that Jesus was without sin and in heaven with God. Where is Muhammad(pbuh)?
Jesus dying for our sins does not give one license to sin as you continue to say. We all sin. Even the Quran says that Jesus was the only one without sin. Under the law the punishment for sin is death. Without the covering of the blood of Jesus we all go to hell.
It is the grace of God that teaches us to say no to unrighteous. The law punishes for wrong acts committed. Graces teaches us to do better.
A runner who wants to win a race will get up and run daily to train for the race. If he falls he gets up and tries to improve. It is his desire to win that makes him run. This is how grace works. Contrary to the law which would punish each time the runner fell and makes the motivation to run the fear of punishment rather than the desire to win.
If you believe that the Bible is Gods word, then read it and see for yourself. I recomend you begin here:
quote:Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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posted
Jesus is from the lineage of Isaac. Isaac is the promised child. God told Abraham that Sarah would conceive and bare a son. Everyone laughed when she conceived, because Sarah was too old to have children. They named the child Isaac, which means laughter. Isaac
Muhammad(pbuh) was from the lineage of Ishmael. The child of the bonds woman. Sarah's slave. God promised Abraham that he would make a great nation from Ishmael. Which he has done.
But, God told Abraham, "In Isaac shall your seed be called".
To this very day the children from the seed of Ishmael are under bondage. They consider themselves slaves of God. Islam is submission to God.
While the children of the promise child, consider themselves "Children of God".
I know you will notice that Christians are not from the seed of Isaac, at least most of them. so how can they be considered "Gods children". This is because the gentiles were grafted in, adopted.
quote:Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God.
1Cr 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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People have to realize that they cannot believe in the Bible and the Quran at the same time.
It's clear what Jesus says in the Bible:
Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Jesus spoke of love and forgiveness. He told us that we should turn the other cheek and to bless those who are our enemies. I doubt that the Quran says anything similar. The Quran speaks about what you would get in Heaven if you submit to Allah and follow Muhammad. If there is verses in the Quran similar to what Jesus said in the Gospels, then someone needs to post them.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
She can. A person is free to believe. It is very well possible that somebody has studied the books, thought them over, and came to the conclusion that in every book there is a part of truth. For them. When I take my own religion as an example, there are parts where I agree with, and parts where I disagree with. Suppose that in the parts where I disagree with, a more reasonable explantion has been given in the other books? That's how new religions are made...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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024.002 YUSUFALI: The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
adultery and fornication the punishment is 100 stripes for BOTH man and woman BUT adultery and fornication are WILLING ACTS, not rape.
My problem with the above verse. "Let not compassion move you"
its advice only. If you choose to let your husband/wife/daughter/son commit adultery and fornication without punishment then we know the consequences will be that everyone chooses to do it also = single mums, kids with no dad, AIDS, VD, everyone bonking whoever they fall into bed with.
Good one Just wondering where Dalia is now Posts: 406 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: She can. A person is free to believe. It is very well possible that somebody has studied the books, thought them over, and came to the conclusion that in every book there is a part of truth. For them.
quote:Originally posted by 'Shahrazat: As Prof.Noah Feldman from Harvard says 'One reason for the divergence between Western and Muslim views of Shariah is that we are not all using the word to mean the same thing. Although it is commonplace to use the word "Shariah" and the phrase "Islamic law" interchangeably, this prosaic English translation does not capture the full set of associations that the term "Shariah" conjures for the believer. Shariah, properly understood, is not just a set of legal rules. To believing Muslims, it is something deeper and higher, infused with moral and metaphysical purpose. At its core, Shariah represents the idea that all human beings — and all human governments — are subject to justice under the law.'
This summarizes my whole problem in this forum,I can not express myself in English clearly because there is no one-one correspondence between Arabic and any other language although I had courses in English from British council in Egypt and as a self study.
quote: The problem of the recent shairah countries is using the Islam as the a cover of their sick minds and they never ever represent the whole Islam world and the real sharia
Saudi Arabia think they are doing the right thing by strictly applying their old outdated method of thinking,and what drives me nuts that some muslims really think that Saudis are doing the right thing!!!! This Is DISASTER!!
quote: by of_gold ...but Shah, It still says to "fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer the, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem..."
so basically unless the person "repent, establish regular prayer and practice regular charity" they have to be killed.
I don't see how this is different than what is practiced.
the whole verses are talking about Pgans who is continously breaching the treaties with the prophet Muhammad phuh and they tried to hijack a lot of Muslim Caravans and this lead that the Arabic penisula to convert into an erna between pagans and Muslims,so Actually pagans started it not Muslims,and as a proof to this we are not ordered to fight antone unless he fights us here is the verse verse 2:190"And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors." so muslims do not have the right to fight those who do not fight them
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: She can. A person is free to believe. It is very well possible that somebody has studied the books, thought them over, and came to the conclusion that in every book there is a part of truth. For them.
Thank you QM!!
Now, if you're going to invent the new religion, p e r h a p s I will follow you. When it's intriguing, convincing, fascinating, believable enough... Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by 'Shahrazat: As Prof.Noah Feldman from Harvard says 'One reason for the divergence between Western and Muslim views of Shariah is that we are not all using the word to mean the same thing. Although it is commonplace to use the word "Shariah" and the phrase "Islamic law" interchangeably, this prosaic English translation does not capture the full set of associations that the term "Shariah" conjures for the believer. Shariah, properly understood, is not just a set of legal rules. To believing Muslims, it is something deeper and higher, infused with moral and metaphysical purpose. At its core, Shariah represents the idea that all human beings — and all human governments — are subject to justice under the law.'
This summarizes my whole problem in this forum,I can not express myself in English clearly because there is no one-one correspondence between Arabic and any other language although I had courses in English from British council in Egypt and as a self study.
quote: The problem of the recent shairah countries is using the Islam as the a cover of their sick minds and they never ever represent the whole Islam world and the real sharia
Saudi Arabia think they are doing the right thing by strictly applying their old outdated method of thinking,and what drives me nuts that some muslims really think that Saudis are doing the right thing!!!! This Is DISASTER!!
quote: by of_gold ...but Shah, It still says to "fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer the, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem..."
so basically unless the person "repent, establish regular prayer and practice regular charity" they have to be killed.
I don't see how this is different than what is practiced.
the whole verses are talking about Pgans who is continously breaching the treaties with the prophet Muhammad phuh and they tried to hijack a lot of Muslim Caravans and this lead that the Arabic penisula to convert into an erna between pagans and Muslims,so Actually pagans started it not Muslims,and as a proof to this we are not ordered to fight antone unless he fights us here is the verse verse 2:190"And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors." so muslims do not have the right to fight those who do not fight them
at last! a verse that means exactly what it says and approved by Akmad. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: She can. A person is free to believe. It is very well possible that somebody has studied the books, thought them over, and came to the conclusion that in every book there is a part of truth. For them. When I take my own religion as an example, there are parts where I agree with, and parts where I disagree with. Suppose that in the parts where I disagree with, a more reasonable explantion has been given in the other books? That's how new religions are made...
But QM that is not what she is doing. She is not taking parts that she agrees with. She is saying that the two books say the same thing.
For instance if you have one books that says that the Earth is flat and one that says the Earth is round how can you possibly say that they have the same message?
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote: by of_gold ...but Shah, It still says to "fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer the, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem..."
so basically unless the person "repent, establish regular prayer and practice regular charity" they have to be killed.
I don't see how this is different than what is practiced.
the whole verses are talking about Pgans who is continously breaching the treaties with the prophet Muhammad phuh and they tried to hijack a lot of Muslim Caravans and this lead that the Arabic penisula to convert into an erna between pagans and Muslims,so Actually pagans started it not Muslims,and as a proof to this we are not ordered to fight antone unless he fights us here is the verse verse 2:190"And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors." so muslims do not have the right to fight those who do not fight them
ok Ahmad now I understand that it is talking about pagans who began the fight, but it still basically says unless they convert to Islam to kill them.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by KING: I doubt that the Quran says anything similar. The Quran speaks about what you would get in Heaven if you submit to Allah and follow Muhammad. If there is verses in the Quran similar to what Jesus said in the Gospels, then someone needs to post them.
Peace
Ok ,this is one of my posts in Islam QnA
There are tons and tons of these in Quran and Hadith
I will just give you the simple ones coresponding to yours and will give you higher than those
Note that in Islam the prophet Muhammad was not God nor Jesus.In Islam Allah only Had one Nature not the 3 in your faith
1-verse 3:31"Say (0 Muhammad mankind): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me (Le. accept IslAmic Monotheism, follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
2-verse 2:165 "And of mankind are some who take (for worship) others besides Allah as rivals (to Allah). They love them as they love Allah. But those who believe, love Allah more (than anything else) "
3- 3:76 "Yes, whoever fulfils his pledge and fears Allah much; verily, then Allah loves those who are AI-Muttaqim (the pious )."
4- 3:134 "Those who spend (in Allah's Cause) in prosperity and in adversity, who repress anger, and who pardon men; verily, Allah loves AI-Muhsinunr (the good-doers)"
5- 60:8 "Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity" this specific verse is the reply to those who says Islam is ordering war against non-Mislims,this verse states clearly we do not have right in war unless they attack us first otherwise Allah will not love us
I will give the commandment of prophet loqman to his son,these Commandments were directed at Muslims too
1- 31:13 "And (remember) when Luqman said to his son when he was advising him: "0 my son! Join not in worship others with Allah. Verily joining others in worship with Allah is a great Zulm (wrong) indeed"
2- 31:14 "And We have enjoined on man (to be dutiful and good) to his parents. His mother bore him in weakness and hardship upon weakness and hardship, and his weaning is in two years - give thanks to Me and to your parents. Unto Me is the final destination"
there is another verse which is much more stronger than this verse 17:23 "And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him. And that you be dutiful to your parents. If one of them or both of them attain old age in your life, say not to them a word of disrespect, nor shout at them but address them in terms of honour" this specific verse is not so accurate translation in all the translations I read since in the Arabic text Allah told us not to tell our parents "offf" which consists of 2 letters in Arabic and there is no shorter than it as a way to express annoyance
3- 31:15 "But if they (both) strive with you to make you join in worship with Me others that of which you have no knowledge, then obey them not" if your parents even order you not to beleive then you just do not say no but deal with them kindly
4-The prophet said in His hadith Book 32, Number 6180: Abu Huraira reported that a person came to Allah,'s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said : Who among the people is most deserving of a fine treatment from my hand ? He said : Your mother. He again said : Then who (is the next one) ? He said: Again it is your mother (who deserves the best treatment from you). He said: Then who (is the next one) ? He (the Holy Prophet) said : Again, it is your mother. He (again) said: Then who? Thereupon he said: Then it is your father. In the hadith transmitted on the authority of Qutalba, there is no mention of the word "the people".
5- Book 32, Number 6354: 'A'isha reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Gabriel impressed upon me (kind treatment) towards the neighbour (so much) that I thought as if he would confer upon him the (right) of inheritance.
6- Book 32, Number 6357: Abu Dharr reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Abu Dharr, when you prepare the broth, add water to that and give that (as a present) to your neighbour.
7- Book 32, Number 6358: Abu Dharr reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) commanded me thus: Whenever you prepare a broth, add water to it, and have in your mind the members of the household of your neighbours and then give them out of this with courtesy
8-verse 31:17 ""0 my son! Aqim-As-Saldt (perform the prayer), enjoin (on people) Al-Ma 'ruj - (Islamic Monotheism and all that is good), and forbid (people) from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief in the Oneness of Allah, polytheism of all kinds and all that is evil and bad), and bear with patience whatever befalls you. Verily, these are some of the important commandments (ordered by Allah with no exemption)."
9-verse 31:18 ""And turn not your face away from men with pride, nor walk in insolence through the earth. Verily, Allah likes not any arrogant boaster."
10-verse 31:19 "And be moderate (or show no insolence) in your walking, and lower your voice. Verily, the harshest of all voices is the braying of the asses" asses are donkeys
Sorry to tell you this,but I can go more and give you thousands and thousands of commandments
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote: by of_gold ...but Shah, It still says to "fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer the, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem..."
so basically unless the person "repent, establish regular prayer and practice regular charity" they have to be killed.
I don't see how this is different than what is practiced.
the whole verses are talking about Pgans who is continously breaching the treaties with the prophet Muhammad phuh and they tried to hijack a lot of Muslim Caravans and this lead that the Arabic penisula to convert into an erna between pagans and Muslims,so Actually pagans started it not Muslims,and as a proof to this we are not ordered to fight antone unless he fights us here is the verse verse 2:190"And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors." so muslims do not have the right to fight those who do not fight them
ok Ahmad now I understand that it is talking about pagans who began the fight, but it still basically says unless they convert to Islam to kill them.
Would you please point me where it says kill them unless they convert to Islam and would you please explain what you mean a bit?
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote: 009.005 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Here is says: "fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them,"
Then it goes on to say: but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them
By saying this I take it as meaning if they convert to Islam you can spare their life. Do you see another meaning?
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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posted
I copied this verse from Shah's post. I think the verse number is 009.005.
-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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posted
Again at king ,there is also holly Hadith (Allah's revealations ,non Quranic verse said by the prophet)
1- Hadith Qudsi 15:
On the authority of Abu Harayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Prophet (PBUH) said: Allah the Almighty said: I am as My servant thinks I am (1). I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.
2- this one is my favourite
Hadith Qudsi 17:
On the authority of Abu Dharr al-Ghifari (may Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (PBUH) is that among the sayings he relates from his Lord (may He be glorified) is that He said: O My servants, I have forbidden oppression for Myself and have made it forbidden amongst you, so do not oppress one another. O My servants, all of you are astray except for those I have guided, so seek guidance of Me and I shall guide you, O My servants, all of you are hungry except for those I have fed, so seek food of Me and I shall feed you. O My servants, all of you are naked except for those I have clothed, so seek clothing of Me and I shall clothe you. O My servants, you sin by night and by day, and I forgive all sins, so seek forgiveness of Me and I shall forgive you. O My servants, you will not attain harming Me so as to harm Me, and will not attain benefitting Me so as to benefit Me. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as pious as the most pious heart of any one man of you, that would not increase My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as wicked as the most wicked heart of any one man of you, that would not decrease My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to rise up in one place and make a request of Me, and were I to give everyone what he requested, that would not decrease what I have, any more that a needle decreases the sea if put into it. O My servants, it is but your deeds that I reckon up for you and then recompense you for, so let him finds good praise Allah and let him who finds other that blame no one but himself.
3- Hadith Qudsi 18:
On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: Allah (mighty and sublime be He) will say on the Day of Resurrection: O son of Adam, I fell ill and you visited Me not. He will say: O Lord, and how should I visit You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant So-and-so had fallen ill and you visited him not? Did you not know that had you visited him you would have found Me with him? O son of Adam, I asked you for food and you fed Me not. He will say: O Lord, and how should I feed You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant So-and-so asked you for food and you fed him not? Did you not know that had you fed him you would surely have found that (the reward for doing so) with Me? O son of Adam, I asked you to give Me to drink and you gave Me not to drink. He will say: O Lord, how should I give You to drink whin You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: My servant So-and-so asked you to give him to drink and you gave him not to drink. Had you given him to drink you would have surely found that with Me.
4- On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said: If Allah has loved a servant [of His] He calls Gabriel (on whom be peace) and says: I love So-and-so, therefore love him. He (the Prophet pbuh) said: So Gabriel loves him. Then he (Gabriel) calls out in heaven, saying: Allah loves So-and-so, therefore love him. And the inhabitants of heaven love him. He (the Prophet pbuh) said: Then acceptance is established for him on earth. And if Allah has abhorred a servant [of His], He calls Gabriel and says: I abhor So-and-so, therefore abhor him. So Gabriel abhors him. Then Gabriel calls out to the inhabitants of heaven: Allah abhors So-and-so, therefore abhor him. He (the Prophet pbuh) said: So they abhor him, and abhorrence is established for him on earth.
King I can give you more and more commandments which urges love and ......all good manners
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
ok ! Now I understand which verse it is 9:5 the word "repent" means that the pagans will promise not to attack Muslims again ,or Muslims must keep then in captivity till they convert or promise not to attack again
look at the verse 9:4 which is the one immediately before it "Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfill their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
that is it,it does not mean to force them
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: Again at king ,there is also holly Hadith (Allah's revealations ,non Quranic verse said by the prophet)
Are you on drugs?
no!!! why?! holly hadith=Hadith Qudsi
Hadith Qudsi are the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him) as revealed to him by the Almighty Allah. Hadith Qudsi (or Sacred Hadith) are so named because, unlike the majority of Hadith which are Prophetic Hadith, their authority (Sanad) is traced back not to the Prophet but to the Almighty.
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: ok ! Now I understand which verse it is 9:5 the word "repent" means that the pagans will promise not to attack Muslims again ,or Muslims must keep then in captivity till they convert or promise not to attack again
look at the verse 9:4 which is the one immediately before it "Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfill their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
that is it,it does not mean to force them
cant you see a slight contradiction here? Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: Again at king ,there is also holly Hadith (Allah's revealations ,non Quranic verse said by the prophet)
WHAT?
edit: the word is Holy Akmad, Holly is a tree
excuse me the past 2 weeks were horrible to me,bye the way Ramadan Kareem it is on saturday kol sana we ento taybeen ya e7'wanna
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: ok ! Now I understand which verse it is 9:5 the word "repent" means that the pagans will promise not to attack Muslims again ,or Muslims must keep then in captivity till they convert or promise not to attack again
look at the verse 9:4 which is the one immediately before it "Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfill their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
that is it,it does not mean to force them
cant you see a slight contradiction here?
I do not see any contradiction! the pagans have to promise that they will never attack islam and as long as they promise they will be set free or they will remain in captivity !! what contradiction!!!
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: ok ! Now I understand which verse it is 9:5 the word "repent" means that the pagans will promise not to attack Muslims again ,or Muslims must keep then in captivity till they convert or promise not to attack again
look at the verse 9:4 which is the one immediately before it "Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfill their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
that is it,it does not mean to force them
cant you see a slight contradiction here?
I do not see any contradiction! the pagans have to promise that they will never attack islam and as long as they promise they will be set free or they will remain in captivity !! what contradiction!!!
or they will remain in captivity till they convert
quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: She can. A person is free to believe. It is very well possible that somebody has studied the books, thought them over, and came to the conclusion that in every book there is a part of truth. For them. When I take my own religion as an example, there are parts where I agree with, and parts where I disagree with. Suppose that in the parts where I disagree with, a more reasonable explantion has been given in the other books? That's how new religions are made...
But QM that is not what she is doing. She is not taking parts that she agrees with. She is saying that the two books say the same thing.
For instance if you have one books that says that the Earth is flat and one that says the Earth is round how can you possibly say that they have the same message?
In fact there are more then two books the same. The same intentions, the same backlaying thoughts, only the details differ. You know, a lot of religions have things in common. They were/are based on already existing beliefs and scripts. Christianity and Islam are influenced by religions that were there earlier. I've read about influences from Zoroastrianism, there are influences from Judaism, and on their turn Islam and Christianity have influenced newer religions. That's not strange, because all religions are based on values that we all share, as human beings, no matter where you live, no matter what race you have. When you enlarge the spectrum you are looking through then you can recognise clear patterns; the 'invention' of a new religion, growth, changes, and on time they have to make place for something new. Christianity exists 2.000 yrs, which is not really a long time when you compare it with for instance that Zoroastrianism. Islam is even younger. In fact Zoroastrianism is very special because it influenced Eastern and Western religions...
The basic beliefs are alike. In that aspect the books also are alike...
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Enquirer: ayisha is saying that flogging is cool allah wants adulterers to be flogged and ayisha is cool with that as it is in the holy quran to ayisha stoning is bad as it is from hadith. it isnt in the quran allah doesnt want adulterers to be stoned just flogged lots flogging good stoning bad now what about hands being cut off? is ayisha cool with that?
ayisha is always accusing ahmad of failing to answer questions. perhaps you missed the above? how does your western, liberal rationalization of Islam deal with cutting off hands for theft? that is in the holy quran allah wants that? you really think that allah wants all adulterers and fornictors to be flogged? how many lashes? have you earned lashes for fornication in your life? your friends only have sex with those they are married to? you would be happy to see them flogged? quran flogging and hand severing good? hadith all bad? this makes sense to you?
Posts: 82 | Registered: Aug 2009
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quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: ok ! Now I understand which verse it is 9:5 the word "repent" means that the pagans will promise not to attack Muslims again ,or Muslims must keep then in captivity till they convert or promise not to attack again
look at the verse 9:4 which is the one immediately before it "Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfill their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
that is it,it does not mean to force them
cant you see a slight contradiction here?
I do not see any contradiction! the pagans have to promise that they will never attack islam and as long as they promise they will be set free or they will remain in captivity !! what contradiction!!!
or they will remain in captivity till they convert
that is force
Happy Ramadan
they will remain in captivity till they convert or promise not to attack islam and they will be set free! there is no contradiction!
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: She can. A person is free to believe. It is very well possible that somebody has studied the books, thought them over, and came to the conclusion that in every book there is a part of truth. For them. When I take my own religion as an example, there are parts where I agree with, and parts where I disagree with. Suppose that in the parts where I disagree with, a more reasonable explantion has been given in the other books? That's how new religions are made...
But QM that is not what she is doing. She is not taking parts that she agrees with. She is saying that the two books say the same thing.
For instance if you have one books that says that the Earth is flat and one that says the Earth is round how can you possibly say that they have the same message?
In fact there are more then two books the same. The same intentions, the same backlaying thoughts, only the details differ. You know, a lot of religions have things in common. They were/are based on already existing beliefs and scripts. Christianity and Islam are influenced by religions that were there earlier. I've read about influences from Zoroastrianism, there are influences from Judaism, and on their turn Islam and Christianity have influenced newer religions. That's not strange, because all religions are based on values that we all share, as human beings, no matter where you live, no matter what race you have. When you enlarge the spectrum you are looking through then you can recognise clear patterns; the 'invention' of a new religion, growth, changes, and on time they have to make place for something new. Christianity exists 2.000 yrs, which is not really a long time when you compare it with for instance that Zoroastrianism. Islam is even younger. In fact Zoroastrianism is very special because it influenced Eastern and Western religions...
The basic beliefs are alike. In that aspect the books also are alike...
Great! So we both agree. I have no argument with your statement. You are speaking in abstract.
We in this thread on the other hand are speaking about the details.
Originally posted by Questionmarks: "The same intentions, the same backlaying thoughts, only the details differ ." Although when I think about it I don't think that the underlying thought is the same. I looked up grace and submission. They are not the same underlying thought.
Either way my point is made, Thanks!
quote: Bible Dictionary Grace
(1.) Of form or person (Prov. 1:9; 3:22; Ps. 45:2). (2.) Favour, kindness, friendship (Gen. 6:8; 18:3; 19:19; 2 Tim. 1:9). (3.) God's forgiving mercy (Rom. 11:6; Eph. 2:5). (4.) The gospel as distinguished from the law (John 1:17; Rom. 6:14; 1 Pet. 5:12). (5.) Gifts freely bestowed by God; as miracles, prophecy, tongues (Rom. 15:15; 1 Cor. 15:10; Eph. 3:8). (6.) Christian virtues (2 Cor. 8:7; 2 Pet. 3:18). (7.) The glory hereafter to be revealed (1 Pet. 1:13).
Word Origin & History
submission
1411, "act of referring to a third party for judgment or decision," from O.Fr. submission, from L. submissionem (nom. submissio) "a lowering, sinking, yielding," from submissus, pp. of submittere "lower, reduce, yield" (see submit). Sense of "humble obedience" is first recorded 1449. Mod.Fr. submission has been replaced by doublet soumission. Submissive "inclined to submit" is recorded from 1586.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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posted
When I should have to classify the subject 'grace'and 'submission', I would classify them as 'details', but that's a personal interpretation. When I think about basic shared values, I should think about the rule " You shall not kill, you shall not steal, etc." Not everybody agrees in that, a few years ago there was a big commotion here, when a bisshop stated that stealing a bread by someone who is poor, should not be a sin. That's subjective, because what is 'poor'? When is someone poor enough to be legalised to steal? And what about the baker? Maybe he is poor too...
So, much unclearness in this.
But, what I wanted to add: It's an interesting subject to discuss, as long as the people are showing respect and are open to other points of view. Often this is not the case. In my expierence a lot of people are suffering a kind of tunnel-view and they are simply not open to look at a subject from another side, but that's not only in religion...
Have a nice weekend... Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Enquirer: ayisha is saying that flogging is cool allah wants adulterers to be flogged and ayisha is cool with that as it is in the holy quran to ayisha stoning is bad as it is from hadith. it isnt in the quran allah doesnt want adulterers to be stoned just flogged lots flogging good stoning bad now what about hands being cut off? is ayisha cool with that?
ayisha is always accusing ahmad of failing to answer questions. perhaps you missed the above? how does your western, liberal rationalization of Islam deal with cutting off hands for theft? that is in the holy quran allah wants that? you really think that allah wants all adulterers and fornictors to be flogged? how many lashes? have you earned lashes for fornication in your life? your friends only have sex with those they are married to? you would be happy to see them flogged? quran flogging and hand severing good? hadith all bad? this makes sense to you?
quote:Originally posted by Enquirer: ayisha is saying that flogging is cool allah wants adulterers to be flogged and ayisha is cool with that as it is in the holy quran to ayisha stoning is bad as it is from hadith. it isnt in the quran allah doesnt want adulterers to be stoned just flogged lots flogging good stoning bad now what about hands being cut off? is ayisha cool with that?
ayisha is always accusing ahmad of failing to answer questions. perhaps you missed the above? how does your western, liberal rationalization of Islam deal with cutting off hands for theft? that is in the holy quran allah wants that? you really think that allah wants all adulterers and fornictors to be flogged? how many lashes? have you earned lashes for fornication in your life? your friends only have sex with those they are married to? you would be happy to see them flogged? quran flogging and hand severing good? hadith all bad? this makes sense to you?
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