quote: You answering from of a position of ignorance. Your using your commons sense and logic that is lacking in Knowledge of Islam. You can not argue biology without knowledge of the subject. Islam is the words of God, Hindu is not. Study both religions, do your duty and then find out for yourself the truth. God will show you the way to his heavens if you commit yourself to his path.
Actually, you are the one talking from ignorance, you have the mentality of: “My way is the right way because I think it is, anyone who says differently just hasn’t done their research”. Hindus will say they have the word of god, not Islam. There are a few billion people in the world who, no matter their religion, will say they are the right way, and anyone else is just ignorant/closed their eyes to the truth/ and so on. People have died for their religions, people have claimed to have seen their god/s, people have dedicated their lives to serving what they think is the right answer, people have converted to and converted from all religions (and this includes people leaving islam, because they think elsewhere was actually the “truth”). You sound exactly like the Christian’s I have dealt with before. They told me: “You do not believe because you haven’t read the bible. If you read it, you will see the truth”. So I read it, I read it a few times, I read different translations of it. I became a strong atheist, and told them so, and so they turned around and told me I just read it wrong, my eyes had been closed to it. And you know what, if I read the quran (and I have read a lot of it, and read about it form PRO islam sources too, and spoken to muslims), and said I am now an even stronger atheist, you would just react the exact same way as the Christians did. Just because you see something as the obvious truth, doesn't mean everyone will, nor does it mean it is the truth. Jesus Christ, I’m now just waiting for someone to push the Iliad on me and tell me that once I read it I will have found the “truth”.
Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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sono is around, they are old 'friends', he 'morphs' into something new
he is not my friend and I loathe him, just ask the local vancouver office of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
Actually in my opinion he's getting on his high horse and needs to transform into a cyber warrior for God or something flaky like that.
Posts: 514 | Registered: Jul 2009
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quote: You answering from of a position of ignorance. Your using your commons sense and logic that is lacking in Knowledge of Islam. You can not argue biology without knowledge of the subject. Islam is the words of God, Hindu is not. Study both religions, do your duty and then find out for yourself the truth. God will show you the way to his heavens if you commit yourself to his path.
Actually, you are the one talking from ignorance, you have the mentality of: “My way is the right way because I think it is, anyone who says differently just hasn’t done their research”. Hindus will say they have the word of god, not Islam. There are a few billion people in the world who, no matter their religion, will say they are the right way, and anyone else is just ignorant/closed their eyes to the truth/ and so on. People have died for their religions, people have claimed to have seen their god/s, people have dedicated their lives to serving what they think is the right answer, people have converted to and converted from all religions (and this includes people leaving islam, because they think elsewhere was actually the “truth”). You sound exactly like the Christian’s I have dealt with before. They told me: “You do not believe because you haven’t read the bible. If you read it, you will see the truth”. So I read it, I read it a few times, I read different translations of it. I became a strong atheist, and told them so, and so they turned around and told me I just read it wrong, my eyes had been closed to it. And you know what, if I read the quran (and I have read a lot of it, and read about it form PRO islam sources too, and spoken to muslims), and said I am now an even stronger atheist, you would just react the exact same way as the Christians did. Just because you see something as the obvious truth, does mean everyone will, nor does it mean it is the truth. Jesus Christ, I’m now just waiting for someone to push the Iliad on me and tell me that once I read it I will have found the “truth”.
hey WK I read Quran, converted, and STILL get told I read it wrong Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote: You answering from of a position of ignorance. Your using your commons sense and logic that is lacking in Knowledge of Islam. You can not argue biology without knowledge of the subject. Islam is the words of God, Hindu is not. Study both religions, do your duty and then find out for yourself the truth. God will show you the way to his heavens if you commit yourself to his path.
Actually, you are the one talking from ignorance, you have the mentality of: “My way is the right way because I think it is, anyone who says differently just hasn’t done their research”. Hindus will say they have the word of god, not Islam. There are a few billion people in the world who, no matter their religion, will say they are the right way, and anyone else is just ignorant/closed their eyes to the truth/ and so on. People have died for their religions, people have claimed to have seen their god/s, people have dedicated their lives to serving what they think is the right answer, people have converted to and converted from all religions (and this includes people leaving islam, because they think elsewhere was actually the “truth”). You sound exactly like the Christian’s I have dealt with before. They told me: “You do not believe because you haven’t read the bible. If you read it, you will see the truth”. So I read it, I read it a few times, I read different translations of it. I became a strong atheist, and told them so, and so they turned around and told me I just read it wrong, my eyes had been closed to it. And you know what, if I read the quran (and I have read a lot of it, and read about it form PRO islam sources too, and spoken to muslims), and said I am now an even stronger atheist, you would just react the exact same way as the Christians did. Just because you see something as the obvious truth, does mean everyone will, nor does it mean it is the truth. Jesus Christ, I'm now just waiting for someone to push the Iliad on me and tell me that once I read it I will have found the “truth”.
You obviously did not read my post. As I wrote before, you can not discuss biology without knowledge of the subject. You are free to discuss it of course, and you will gain some knowledge through discussion but that doesn't eliminate the need for serious study. Like biology, the subject of Islam is complex and need serious effort.
Your judgment of the bible has no effect on Quran. The fact that you did not believe in one does not mean that the other is also false. That defies logic! Same goes for other people who tell you this and tell you that. The bottom line is, you have to find out for yourself and that is done by study and research.
Posts: 406 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote: You obviously did not read my post. As I wrote before, you can not discuss biology without knowledge of the subject. You are free to discuss it of course, and you will gain some knowledge through discussion but that doesn't eliminate the need for serious study. Like biology, the subject of Islam is complex and need serious effort.
Your judgment of the bible has no effect on Quran. The fact that you did not believe in one does not mean that the other is also false. That defies logic! Same goes for other people who tell you this and tell you that. The bottom line is, you have to find out for yourself and that is done by study and research.
You have totally missed my point. The point is, that having great knowledge in islam is not a guarantee I will believe, there are MANY people who know the quran/islam extremely well, but do not believe, or have once believed, but converted to Christianity/atheism, etc. So far, through my year of studying it (I admit still not much time) I have not even come close to thinking: “hang on, there might be something here”. So far, it has had as much effect on me as any religious text I have explored. Mainly boredom, and lots of: “Really though, I mean, really, oh come on!” Not everyone will have the same reaction, religious books will always effect different people differently. And no, I clearly wasn’t saying that as I didn’t believe in the bible, I wont believe in the quran. My point was that you are thinking with the same mentality as those christian’s did. You think the only reason why someone doesn’t believe in your religion is down to ignorance, just like they thought. I could dedicate my life to studying the quran, but if on my death bed I said I still do not believe, you will just turn around and say: “Clearly you haven’t researched enough”. So fine, the only reason why you do not believe in the Norse religion, is because you haven’t studied and researched it enough. Open your heart to Odin, he desperately wants to save your soul and allow you into Valhalla!
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by messenger: The bottom line is, you have to find out for yourself and that is done by study and research.
then when you've done that you get told you're supposed to follow scholars and not do your own study and research or use your own mind Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Weird kitty - All that science has done is clone human cells, it has yet to create one from scratch. All of the time that science tries to 'play God' it will ultimately fail.
Everything cannot be explained by science, try as they might to explain the 'big bang theory' and they fail because the chances of the earth being in the exact same spot at the right time to produce the right conditions to foster life, and for that life to continue and evolve into many species are about 100000000000000000 to 1.
First of all, we are reasonably certain that the universe had a beginning.
Well we are certain that there was a beginning to Einstein
Second, galaxies appear to be moving away from us at speeds proportional to their distance. This observation supports the expansion of the universe and suggests that the universe was once compacted.
This is a mere suggestion, and in no way proves that God did not create the universe.
Third, if the universe was initially very, very hot as the Big Bang suggests, we should be able to find some remnant of this heat. In 1965, Radioastronomers Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson discovered a 2.725 degree Kelvin (-454.765 degree Fahrenheit, -270.425 degree Celsius) Cosmic Microwave Background radiation (CMB) which pervades the observable universe. This is thought to be the remnant which scientists were looking for.
Still just thoughts, nothing concrete.
Finally, the abundance of the "light elements" Hydrogen and Helium found in the observable universe are thought to support the Big Bang model of origins.
Vague, at best
So you see in reality the theory that is the best we humans can come up with is in fact barely a theory at all and more like clutching at straws. Yet for you and many others, this 'science' is more believable than 'God creating the universe'...Why is that?
One thing that always amazes me is that people are more proud to announce they believe in Aliens than in God. I wonder who created the aliens? Posts: 140 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2009
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quote:Originally posted by weirdkitty: You have totally missed my point. The point is, that having great knowledge in islam is not a guarantee I will believe, there are MANY people who know the quran/islam extremely well, but do not believe, or have once believed, but converted to Christianity/atheism, etc.
I'm not sure why you always refer to other people's belief or their experience. Firstly, you do not know what was in their heart and weather they were genuinely searching for the good path. You also do not know how knowledgeable they were if you yourself did not possess the knowledge. You just took their word for it. Some people are devious and were put on earth to mislead us but I believe that they did not completely cause you to lose your way as you are still discussing your belief and there still is hope that you will find God and the way to Islam.
quote:Originally posted by weirdkitty:
And no, I clearly wasn’t saying that as I didn’t believe in the bible, I wont believe in the quran. My point was that you are thinking with the same mentality as those christian’s did. You think the only reason why someone doesn’t believe in your religion is down to ignorance, just like they thought. I could dedicate my life to studying the quran, but if on my death bed I said I still do not believe, you will just turn around and say: “Clearly you haven’t researched enough”. So fine, the only reason why you do not believe in the Norse religion, is because you haven’t studied and researched it enough. Open your heart to Odin, he desperately wants to save your soul and allow you into Valhalla!
I understand what you're saying and I know that each will believe in their views and defend their position. But you have to agree, that this applies right across the board and some things are wrong no matter how many people believed in them. The only way for you to decide is to know more about the subject.
Let's not discuss other people and allow me to try to understand your position clearly. I understand from your posts that after reading and researching the bible you were not convinced and turned to atheism. Is that the only reason, your disbelief in the bible or do you have other reasons?
Another questions, do you have an inclination one way or another, do you prefer that there is a God or not? Do you prefer that there's a Religion or not? And why (to both questions)?
Posts: 406 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by messenger: The bottom line is, you have to find out for yourself and that is done by study and research.
then when you've done that you get told you're supposed to follow scholars and not do your own study and research or use your own mind
What is study and research?
I thought you of all people were a bit more intelligent than to ask that mags, drink more water seems your brain is needing it during ramadan.
study - plural studies, verb, studied, studying. –noun 1. application of the mind to the acquisition of knowledge, as by reading, investigation, or reflection: long hours of study.
research –noun 1. diligent and systematic inquiry or investigation into a subject in order to discover or revise facts, theories, applications, etc.: recent research in medicine. 2. a particular instance or piece of research.
–verb (used without object) 3. to make researches; investigate carefully.
–verb (used with object) 4. to make an extensive investigation into: to research a matter thoroughly.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I don't worship science, so arguing about things science cannot do, and does not know, is a bit pointless. It isn't an all-knowing thing, as much as mathematics isn't. All science is, is something that tries to find the answers to the questions, no matter what the answer is (be it even god, as despite what some people assume, it isn't science Vs religion). Just because we cannot create something that nature has, doesn't imply to me there must be a higher power, why would it? Since when did humans have to be able to do everything? After all, we really haven't been around long, compared to the universe. We haven't even come close to the dinosaurs rule of the world yet (over 160 millions years I believe). Do I think we will one day have all the answers? No. Just like I don't think we will one day be able to make a spaceship that can go light speed and take us to other galaxies, but just because we cannot do that, doesn't mean there has to be a god. Just because we cannot make a human being from nothing, doesn't mean (to me) there has to be a god.
As for my stance. I'm an atheist, not because I read the bible, that just made me a stronger atheist. I have never believed in a god, in the same way I bet most people here have never believed in the easter bunny. I have absolutely zero belief in any deity. But I find religion fascinating (all religions, including ones now known as mythologies), not because I have questions that need answering, but because I have a weakness for fantasy. And I’m afraid that is how I view it. I couldn't care less if someone wants to believe in Allah, or any other god possibility. Each to their own. People look at things, and get different answers from them. Do I prefer if there was a god? Hmmm, depends on the god. I'm not a fan of the bible god, at least not the one in the OT. However, the deist idea of a god is fine. There are tooo many god possibilities to answer that question properly. However, I would rather no heaven/hell. I'd prefer oblivion, living for eternity, nah thanks. Do I prefer there to not be religion? Each to their own. People find great peace in it, and as long as they don't use it to justify evil actions or try to push it onto me, than I don’t care what religion people wish to follow.
-------------------- Another one.... Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by weirdkitty: I don't worship science, so arguing about things science cannot do, and does not know, is a bit pointless. It isn't an all-knowing thing, as much as mathematics isn't. All science is, is something that tries to find the answers to the questions, no matter what the answer is (be it even god, as despite what some people assume, it isn't science Vs religion). Just because we cannot create something that nature has, doesn't imply to me there must be a higher power, why would it? Since when did humans have to be able to do everything? After all, we really haven't been around long, compared to the universe. We haven't even come close to the dinosaurs rule of the world yet (over 160 millions years I believe). Do I think we will one day have all the answers? No. Just like I don't think we will one day be able to make a spaceship that can go light speed and take us to other galaxies, but just because we cannot do that, doesn't mean there has to be a god. Just because we cannot make a human being from nothing, doesn't mean (to me) there has to be a god.
As for my stance. I'm an atheist, not because I read the bible, that just made me a stronger atheist. I have never believed in a god, in the same way I bet most people here have never believed in the easter bunny. I have absolutely zero belief in any deity. But I find religion fascinating (all religions, including ones now known as mythologies), not because I have questions that need answering, but because I have a weakness for fantasy. And I’m afraid that is how I view it. I couldn't care less if someone wants to believe in Allah, or any other god possibility. Each to their own. People look at things, and get different answers from them. Do I prefer if there was a god? Hmmm, depends on the god. I'm not a fan of the bible god, at least not the one in the OT. However, the deist idea of a god is fine. There are tooo many god possibilities to answer that question properly. However, I would rather no heaven/hell. I'd prefer oblivion, living for eternity, nah thanks. Do I prefer there to not be religion? Each to their own. People find great peace in it, and as long as they don't use it to justify evil actions or try to push it onto me, than I don’t care what religion people wish to follow.
.
It sounds like you're an accidental atheist. You can not put forward a valid argument.
The idea of my questions was for you to understand your own biases. We all have them. If you want a world with no God, all your research will be colored by that face.
Posts: 406 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by messenger: The bottom line is, you have to find out for yourself and that is done by study and research.
then when you've done that you get told you're supposed to follow scholars and not do your own study and research or use your own mind
What is study and research?
I thought you of all people were a bit more intelligent than to ask that mags, drink more water seems your brain is needing it during ramadan.
study - plural studies, verb, studied, studying. –noun 1. application of the mind to the acquisition of knowledge, as by reading, investigation, or reflection: long hours of study.
research –noun 1. diligent and systematic inquiry or investigation into a subject in order to discover or revise facts, theories, applications, etc.: recent research in medicine. 2. a particular instance or piece of research.
–verb (used without object) 3. to make researches; investigate carefully.
–verb (used with object) 4. to make an extensive investigation into: to research a matter thoroughly.
And when you investigate carefully, do you include other people's work in the investigation? Do you look at other theories and consider them carefully? None said "follow" scholars but their work is essential in any serious research.
Posts: 406 | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
I will post A hadith for the prophet to summarize the way Islam look at this Question "What's more important:believing or behaving?"
the prophet Muhammad said when someone ask him for advice,the prophet phuh said "Say I beleive in Allah then Behave " after that the man asked the prophet phuh what else ,the prophet replied"your tongue "
I think this summarizes thw whole viewpoint Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by messenger: The bottom line is, you have to find out for yourself and that is done by study and research.
then when you've done that you get told you're supposed to follow scholars and not do your own study and research or use your own mind
What is study and research?
I thought you of all people were a bit more intelligent than to ask that mags, drink more water seems your brain is needing it during ramadan.
study - plural studies, verb, studied, studying. –noun 1. application of the mind to the acquisition of knowledge, as by reading, investigation, or reflection: long hours of study.
research –noun 1. diligent and systematic inquiry or investigation into a subject in order to discover or revise facts, theories, applications, etc.: recent research in medicine. 2. a particular instance or piece of research.
–verb (used without object) 3. to make researches; investigate carefully.
–verb (used with object) 4. to make an extensive investigation into: to research a matter thoroughly.
And when you investigate carefully, do you include other people's work in the investigation? Do you look at other theories and consider them carefully? None said "follow" scholars but their work is essential in any serious research.
would it be careful investigation if I just picked up any book and read that and nothing else? Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: I will post A hadith for the prophet to summarize the way Islam look at this Question "What's more important:believing or behaving?"
the prophet Muhammad said when someone ask him for advice,the prophet phuh said "Say I beleive in Allah then Behave " after that the man asked the prophet phuh what else ,the prophet replied"your tongue "
I think this summarizes thw whole viewpoint
certainly does Akmad, thank you so much for taking the time to give us your profound wisdom and undoubted knowledge but what is it about 'your tongue'? it does seem to have been left hanging or do we have to use another 10 volumes of Tafsir to be enlightened on that also? Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: I will post A hadith for the prophet to summarize the way Islam look at this Question "What's more important:believing or behaving?"
the prophet Muhammad said when someone ask him for advice,the prophet phuh said "Say I beleive in Allah then Behave " after that the man asked the prophet phuh what else ,the prophet replied"your tongue "
I think this summarizes thw whole viewpoint
certainly does Akmad, thank you so much for taking the time to give us your profound wisdom and undoubted knowledge but what is it about 'your tongue'? it does seem to have been left hanging or do we have to use another 10 volumes of Tafsir to be enlightened on that also?
actually the man asked the prophet "what else you fear most for me" the prophet said"your tongue "
i searched a translation but this hadith is not in Al-Bukhary it is in Mosnad Ahmad and i did not found any ready translation for that mosnad
do you need the arabic version ?
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
no thanks Akmad I dont need the Arabic, the English is fine. It would have made more sense if you had understood the English enough to put the rest of the question "what else you fear most for me" instead of "what else" then an English speaker would have understood it.
Anyway its good that you trawled all the hadith you could find in order to prove your point, whatever that point was, but it also proves that you are wrong as your tongue prove your disbelief and inability to behave on a daily basis, so does that mean, according to the logic in your hadith, that you are not a believer??
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by messenger: The bottom line is, you have to find out for yourself and that is done by study and research.
then when you've done that you get told you're supposed to follow scholars and not do your own study and research or use your own mind
What is study and research?
I thought you of all people were a bit more intelligent than to ask that mags, drink more water seems your brain is needing it during ramadan.
study - plural studies, verb, studied, studying. –noun 1. application of the mind to the acquisition of knowledge, as by reading, investigation, or reflection: long hours of study.
research –noun 1. diligent and systematic inquiry or investigation into a subject in order to discover or revise facts, theories, applications, etc.: recent research in medicine. 2. a particular instance or piece of research.
–verb (used without object) 3. to make researches; investigate carefully.
–verb (used with object) 4. to make an extensive investigation into: to research a matter thoroughly.
And when you investigate carefully, do you include other people's work in the investigation? Do you look at other theories and consider them carefully? None said "follow" scholars but their work is essential in any serious research.
would it be careful investigation if I just picked up any book and read that and nothing else?
Of course not, that would be reading.
Posts: 406 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: no thanks Akmad I dont need the Arabic, the English is fine. It would have made more sense if you had understood the English enough to put the rest of the question "what else you fear most for me" instead of "what else" then an English speaker would have understood it.
Anyway its good that you trawled all the hadith you could find in order to prove your point, whatever that point was, but it also proves that you are wrong as your tongue prove your disbelief and inability to behave on a daily basis, so does that mean, according to the logic in your hadith, that you are not a believer??
anyone is prone to sins and satan
and i just provided a quick translation to what i understand
when we say tongue in arabic it means "be warned from your tongue" it is a very famous structure
I of course was mistaken not to consider the differences in the language between arabic and english but after all i am not a translator
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: no thanks Akmad I dont need the Arabic, the English is fine. It would have made more sense if you had understood the English enough to put the rest of the question "what else you fear most for me" instead of "what else" then an English speaker would have understood it.
Anyway its good that you trawled all the hadith you could find in order to prove your point, whatever that point was, but it also proves that you are wrong as your tongue prove your disbelief and inability to behave on a daily basis, so does that mean, according to the logic in your hadith, that you are not a believer??
anyone is prone to sins and satan
and i just provided a quick translation to what i understand
when we say tongue in arabic it means "be warned from your tongue" it is a very famous structure
I of course was mistaken not to consider the differences in the language between arabic and english but after all i am not a translator
So tongue doesnt mean tongue in Arabic but means 'be warned from your tongue'?? interesting.
you say you are not a translator yet you have spent numerous hours here telling us English speakers that all the translations are wrong and giving your own translations to verses and hadith, now are you saying they are also wrong translations because you are not a translator? Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by messenger: The bottom line is, you have to find out for yourself and that is done by study and research.
then when you've done that you get told you're supposed to follow scholars and not do your own study and research or use your own mind
What is study and research?
I thought you of all people were a bit more intelligent than to ask that mags, drink more water seems your brain is needing it during ramadan.
study - plural studies, verb, studied, studying. –noun 1. application of the mind to the acquisition of knowledge, as by reading, investigation, or reflection: long hours of study.
research –noun 1. diligent and systematic inquiry or investigation into a subject in order to discover or revise facts, theories, applications, etc.: recent research in medicine. 2. a particular instance or piece of research.
–verb (used without object) 3. to make researches; investigate carefully.
–verb (used with object) 4. to make an extensive investigation into: to research a matter thoroughly.
And when you investigate carefully, do you include other people's work in the investigation? Do you look at other theories and consider them carefully? None said "follow" scholars but their work is essential in any serious research.
would it be careful investigation if I just picked up any book and read that and nothing else?
Of course not, that would be reading.
Which is one of the ways to 'study and research' isnt it?
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: no thanks Akmad I dont need the Arabic, the English is fine. It would have made more sense if you had understood the English enough to put the rest of the question "what else you fear most for me" instead of "what else" then an English speaker would have understood it.
Anyway its good that you trawled all the hadith you could find in order to prove your point, whatever that point was, but it also proves that you are wrong as your tongue prove your disbelief and inability to behave on a daily basis, so does that mean, according to the logic in your hadith, that you are not a believer??
anyone is prone to sins and satan
and i just provided a quick translation to what i understand
when we say tongue in arabic it means "be warned from your tongue" it is a very famous structure
I of course was mistaken not to consider the differences in the language between arabic and english but after all i am not a translator
So tongue doesnt mean tongue in Arabic but means 'be warned from your tongue'?? interesting.
you say you are not a translator yet you have spent numerous hours here telling us English speakers that all the translations are wrong and giving your own translations to verses and hadith, now are you saying they are also wrong translations because you are not a translator?
I really do not know what exactly is going on in your mind ,i said I see Yusif ali as a translation with no soul ,he just translates the verse with no aim at explainig the historic context he or others that is why I love khan translation
I do not take translation as a career and i will not
for the part you comment about tongue it is called Esloob targheb wa tarheeb and of course it is in Arabic Al-fosha as in the prophet hadith and can be understood from the context in every day life in egypt
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote: It sounds like you're an accidental atheist. You can not put forward a valid argument.
That doesn’t even make sense. No one asked me to try to justify my atheism, so I wasn’t attempting to, nor do I feel the need to justify it. Do you feel the need to justify your disbelief in the easter bunny or hobbits? Are you that narrow minded that you can’t possible accept that people do genuinely think what you believe is just not true? Well considering you have the worlds majority against you, perhaps you should rethink that stance. Oh wait, let me guess, they just haven’t researched enough. I just do not believe in gods, and lets pretend there were a million possibility of gods (there are actually far more than that), well guess what, we agree on nine hundred and ninety nine thousand nine hundred and ninety nine of them, we just disagree on this one, out of all those others. So why don’t you believe in all those other ones? Did you research personally into each and every one of them? Or did you merely discard them as farfetched and silly, well that’s what I done with yours too.
quote: The idea of my questions was for you to understand your own biases. We all have them. If you want a world with no God, all your research will be colored by that face.
I didn’t say I wanted a world with no god, I said it depended on the god/s. I argue on the stance of a non-believer, however, although I do believe I am right 100% (otherwise I would call myself agnostic) I don’t believe that my disbelief is any stronger than the next person’s belief. However, for some reason, you think your belief is somehow stronger than the next person, that somehow they know deep inside they are wrong. Well they don’t, they believe they are right just as much as you do, just as much as I do. Believing you are right doesn’t make you right, that’s the same for you, me, of_gold, Ayisha, everyone, whatever their belief.
Posts: 2573 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: [qb] no thanks Akmad I dont need the Arabic, the English is fine. It would have made more sense if you had understood the English enough to put the rest of the question "what else you fear most for me" instead of "what else" then an English speaker would have understood it.
Anyway its good that you trawled all the hadith you could find in order to prove your point, whatever that point was, but it also proves that you are wrong as your tongue prove your disbelief and inability to behave on a daily basis, so does that mean, according to the logic in your hadith, that you are not a believer??
anyone is prone to sins and satan
and i just provided a quick translation to what i understand
when we say tongue in arabic it means "be warned from your tongue" it is a very famous structure
I of course was mistaken not to consider the differences in the language between arabic and english but after all i am not a translator
So tongue doesnt mean tongue in Arabic but means 'be warned from your tongue'?? interesting.
you say you are not a translator yet you have spent numerous hours here telling us English speakers that all the translations are wrong and giving your own translations to verses and hadith, now are you saying they are also wrong translations because you are not a translator?
I really do not know what exactly is going on in your mind ,i said I see Yusif ali as a translation with no soul ,he just translates the verse with no aim at explainig the historic context he or others that is why I love khan translation
Yusef Ali translations do have commentary which gives the historical, hadith and tafsir, the difference between Ali and Khan is that Khan adds these into the verse translations, Ali leaves the Quran as Quran and puts the commentary separate where it should be.
quote:I do not take translation as a career and i will not
Thats good to know!
quote:for the part you comment about tongue it is called Esloob targheb wa tarheeb and of course it is in Arabic Al-fosha as in the prophet hadith and can be understood from the context in every day life in egypt
I do understand it Akmad, in English we have 'mind your tongue' for a similar meaning but we dont say the word 'tongue' means this without adding the rest.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Yusef Ali translations do have commentary which gives the historical, hadith and tafsir
excuse me!!! what version do you have ?! my version (downloaded from yusuf estes site)does not have any translation!
quote: I do understand it Akmad, in English we have 'mind your tongue' for a similar meaning but we dont say the word 'tongue' means this without adding the rest
guess what ?this is arabic the most structured language in the world(this is not my invention ,ask any professor in liguistics and he will assure you that)
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
I'm agnostic, that means -for me- there is no certainty in the largest meaning of the definition. A religion is just an ethical system, developed and connected to the time in which it has been active. At a certain moment the religion- or better said: the ethics - are outdated and impossible to live with, so then it changes... Christianity as it is right now, doesn't look like the Christianity from 600 years ago, and 600 years are peanuts in the timeline of history. Our values have changed and so has our religion. Not one well-thinking mind would use the literally text of the old script as a manual to live today, in 2009, because it doesn't fit anymore... That's why a salafist never can survive, the only way to do so is by using power, force and keeping people in a position that they are unable to develope. That doesn't work either, history has already proved that...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Yusef Ali translations do have commentary which gives the historical, hadith and tafsir
excuse me!!! what version do you have ?! my version (downloaded from yusuf estes site)does not have any translation!
your Yusef Ali does not have any 'translation'?? If you mean commentary and historical blurb, I have the Book, not a website download
quote:
quote: I do understand it Akmad, in English we have 'mind your tongue' for a similar meaning but we dont say the word 'tongue' means this without adding the rest
guess what ?this is arabic the most structured language in the world(this is not my invention ,ask any professor in liguistics and he will assure you that)
what is your problem! all I said was that we have a similar expression in English! I wasnt disputing your bloody language, shows you hve NO understanding of anything you read in English!
you are excused! Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by messenger: The bottom line is, you have to find out for yourself and that is done by study and research.
then when you've done that you get told you're supposed to follow scholars and not do your own study and research or use your own mind
What is study and research?
I thought you of all people were a bit more intelligent than to ask that mags, drink more water seems your brain is needing it during ramadan.
study - plural studies, verb, studied, studying. –noun 1. application of the mind to the acquisition of knowledge, as by reading, investigation, or reflection: long hours of study.
research –noun 1. diligent and systematic inquiry or investigation into a subject in order to discover or revise facts, theories, applications, etc.: recent research in medicine. 2. a particular instance or piece of research.
–verb (used without object) 3. to make researches; investigate carefully.
–verb (used with object) 4. to make an extensive investigation into: to research a matter thoroughly.
And when you investigate carefully, do you include other people's work in the investigation? Do you look at other theories and consider them carefully? None said "follow" scholars but their work is essential in any serious research.
would it be careful investigation if I just picked up any book and read that and nothing else?
Of course not, that would be reading.
It is one of the methods to do research. Reading one book and nothing else is being closed minded.
Posts: 406 | Registered: Mar 2008
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