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Originally posted by Snoozin:
And you think I ever needed your *faith* why? Like somehow you matter? I wish I could say I was a good enough person to care for someone like you, but I'm not.

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You're out of context, don't take it personal, have you yet run out of answers?

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Originally posted by kafir4ever:
Originally posted by Snoozin:
Aren't you aware that is how it has been for women for all of recorded history, other than the past 200 years or so?

You sound so absurd. Suppose what you say was true..How do you rconcile with the fact that Muhammad was nearly 50 years older than Aisha? If Aisha had to marry she should be given to a 9, 10, or 15year old boy, and certainly not to a man that was 50 years older than her.

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quote:

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Originally posted by newcomer:
Up to your usual tricks again, trying to put your own inferences on matters and ignoring the full picture. Whatever!!

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One more thing: There are some 200 violent verses in the Quran, about slaying the infidels, choping off their hands and feet etc, that are full of hatred. I have read them all in context, and I still see the same thing. Frankly I don´t understand it when you say that Islam is a peaceful religion. What about these verses? Yes, yes they are out of context you say. But can you find me any violent verses from Jesus, even out of context? Please I would like to see them! Or try to quote one “out of context” sentence of mine such as these from my posts that make me look as hatemongering as Muhammad. Please try. You will see that you cannot quote me being hateful to any human being even "out of the context". I wonder when will Muslims get tired of their "out of the context" mania. The violence and hate is the context of Quran. Hate is the message of Islam. Can't you see? Please tell me why is it that those Muslims who dedicate years going to madresas and read sharia are more prone to become terrorists? Shouldn’t it be the reverse? Please tell me why all Islamic countries have barbaric practices such as stoning, maiming, child abuse, etc. are poor and uncivilized compared to the rest of the world? Shouldn’t it be the reverse? Why non muslim nations have all the science, technology and knowledge and the godly Islamic nations are so ignorant? Doesn't this raise the red flag that something is wrong with Islam?

You say that these verses are misunderstood, then let us change them so no one can misunderstand them. These are the very verses that the Taliban uses to commit their crimes. These are the verses that Khomeini kept quoting to murder hundreds of thousand of people in Iran. These are the verses that inspired the terrorists to destroy the WTC and the Pentagon. If they are misinterpreted and misunderstood by so many Muslims, let us delete them from the Quran. How can one say Islam is a religion of peace while there are so many verses in Quran that call for killing, maiming and crucifying the unbelievers? The average Muslim does not know these teachings. Most of them are very good people. But those who follow these teachings of Quran become Khomeinis and Bin Ladens. This is what we have to aviod.

Could someone put the above verse in “context” for me? what is the right context? It is sickening to hear Muslims keep repeating like a parrot “you take verses out of context” The whole Quran is full of verses like these. Why you insist to keep your head under the sand? Show me one Islamic country that follows Islamic Sharia and respects the human rights. Are all of them taking the verses out of context?

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Originally posted by kafir4ever:
It is sickening to hear Muslims keep repeating like a parrot “you take verses out of context”

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quote:

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Originally posted by kafir4ever:
Imagine if the West decided to apply the teachings of the Quran on the Muslims:

Qur’an (2:191): "And slay Muslims wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out………such is the reward of those who suppress democracy."

Qur’an-(9:5): "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Muslims wherever ye find them, And seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) ; but if they repent (accept reason) and establish regular elections and practice regular charity then open the way for them; for The Law is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

Qur’an(48:20): "….Parliament promises you much booty (spoils of war) that you will capture from the defeated Muslims…."

Qur’an-(8:65): "… Rouse the believers in democracy to the fight, if there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred; if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Muslims; for these are a people without understanding."

Quran-8:12: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Muslims: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

Qur’an-(9:29): "Fight those who believe not Parliament nor the constitution, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by parliament or it’s ministers, nor acknowledge democracy and reason, even if they are good Muslims, until they pay the Poll Tax with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Quran-9:73: Strive against the Muslims. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end.

Quran-8: 15,16: O ye who believe in democracy! when ye meet the Muslims in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Parliament, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed)!

Q.3: 118-120: "O you who believe in democracy! Take not Muslims as your advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, Since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made clear to you the constitution, if you understand. Lo! You are the ones who love them but they love you not, and you believe in all the Laws [i.e., you believe in the Democracy and the Freedom, while they disbelieve in Reason. And when they meet you, they say, ‘We believe.’ But when they are alone, they bite the tips of their fingers at you in rage…..

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quote:

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Originally posted by kafir4ever:
Am I wrong or right? Did Muhammad sleep with a 9 year old or not ? If I am wrong, one Muslim should be able to prove me wrong. Where is that Muslim? If I am right, then why are you accusing me of calling Muhammad a pedophile, implying that I am lying?

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Muhammad married a 6 yrs old child and had sex it is said when that child was nine years old.

That of course makes Muhammad a Paedophile. Muhammad was an Arab and therefore a descendant of Abraham and so a Jew.

For the Jews the Legal age for sex and marraige was 12 years old. So even in those days he was breaking the civil law religious law and moral laws.

Oh and the Sura 4:82 of the Koran does prove the Koran is not the word of God and that makes Muhammad a liar and a fraud.

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Originally posted by Humanized

sorry Ben, you havent used the islamic sources to show anything but hatred , you only copy/paste what ever you like from Quran/Hadith then you show your own explanation depending on your own ignorance of Quran/hadith ,

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Hi,

Saying that I haven’t used the Islamic sources to show nothing but hate and my anger towards Muslims is a big statement. What verses exactly did I use to show my hatred? The ones about killing all Islamic kafirs when at war, but I already explained the Dar el Harb/Dar el Salaam concept, so it couldn’t be that. Was it the history of Egypt when the Muslims can into power? Remember the other arguments you made which we subjective and had little or deceitful proof?

This is a forum, people can flow through these arguments at will and hundreds if not thousands do each day. I ask them in the arguments to make their own decision and to do their own research. I am arguing with Egyptian Muslims whom are very familiar with the Koran, culture and the same Islamic sources that I use to make the point. If I wasn’t sure of what I am saying why would I ask people to look up what I say? To have the debate open or to answer as many posts as I can concerning my argument? That is because I am sure 100% of my arguments and I have your exact Islamic sources in Arabic to prove it.

No one needs your opinion on how I take the Koran verses and Hadis out of context when others can do it for themselves. People are free to study my arguments make their objections objectively against mine, this has been the policy from day one. Let the people who read this make their own opinions.

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Originally posted by Humanized

you are not understanding what/why and for the reasons behind the Quran verses nor the occasions of the Ahadith. You always claim to be aware of the the Tafsir and your extreme knowledge of Quran !!!

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I guess I was too ignorant to understand 15.19 in Arabic and you are not, so feel free to teach me the truth.

I never claimed anything about the Koran and Hadis, take me as a laity. As for you to judge me which means you know Islam correctly and I do not. Actions speak louder than words so people can see through your finger pointing and see your arguments.

I am ignorant remember? After all you have been a Muslim for 30 years, so you can start with the Dar el Salaam/Dar el Harb concept after 15.19 that I wrote about and prove me wrong.

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Originally posted by Humanized

And yes, your lack of security is the reason behind hating Islam and muslims , and dont answer me with your contradictory argument "i dont hate muslims but i hate their ideology" just read it to yourself before you write it and try to find any sense in it.

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Yes, I am extremely worried people are going to prove Christianity wrong so I decided to join up this forum to constantly bash Islam so just incase someone has any logical arguments against Christianity I can bash Islam some more and forget about the obvious holes in Christianity. Great work!

Concerning the hating of Muslims and Islam, for about the third time I don’t hate Muslims but I hate your ideology. LIKE I DO NOT HATE RUSSIANS BUT I HATE COMMUNISM. It is a very basic concept.

After all the good and generous things that Muslims have done to the Christians since conquering it in the 8th century like not letting us in any state universities, forcing us to have Arabic spoken in OUR WORSHIP service (can you imagine if the Bush government forced the Muslims there to pray in English?), not to mention the gizya tax placed for being a Christian, kidnapping and raping of Christian woman on the streets are all justified in Islam (and I can prove this). So tell me, why shouldn’t I hate Islam?

quote:

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Originally posted by Humanized

you insult our Holy Book , you insult Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) , then you insult all muslims , then you claim to show all the lies about Islam , and that everyone is fooled by the ethics of Islam !!

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If your holy book and your holy prophet gives the followers permission to do the above plus repress every religion minority in the controlled country, yet you turn around and tell me that Islam is the most tolerant and nicest religion in the world, what am I going to believe? You or your religious holy book and prophet?

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Originally posted by Humanized

And you are the only Messiah who is trying to rescue the entire world from the dangers of Islam....because you know Islam ,Quran and Mohamed better than any one else .

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I never said that, you did. I never claimed to be the Messiah, nor know Islam or the Quran better than you but the thing you forgot, that I ask people to go through my argument and to see what I have to say and why then make their own decisions. People can see my argument vs. yours on various points and they can see who makes more sense.

I don’t care for your personal opinion of me so do you think anyone else will? Prove your point theologically not personally.

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Originally posted by Humanized

please try to get a life....

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quote:

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Originally posted by ben_elias:
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Humanized
[b]
sorry Ben, you havent used the islamic sources to show anything but hatred , you only copy/paste what ever you like from Quran/Hadith then you show your own explanation depending on your own ignorance of Quran/hadith ,

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Hi,

Saying that I haven’t used the Islamic sources to show nothing but hate and my anger towards Muslims is a big statement. What verses exactly did I use to show my hatred? The ones about killing all Islamic kafirs when at war, but I already explained the Dar el Harb/Dar el Salaam concept, so it couldn’t be that. Was it the history of Egypt when the Muslims can into power? Remember the other arguments you made which we subjective and had little or deceitful proof?

This is a forum, people can flow through these arguments at will and hundreds if not thousands do each day. I ask them in the arguments to make their own decision and to do their own research. I am arguing with Egyptian Muslims whom are very familiar with the Koran, culture and the same Islamic sources that I use to make the point. If I wasn’t sure of what I am saying then why would I ask people to look up what I say? Why would I have the debate open to everyone or to answer as many posts as I can concerning my argument? That is because I am sure 100% of my arguments and I have your exact Islamic sources in Arabic to prove it.

No one needs your opinion on how I take the Koran verses and Hadis out of context when others can do it for themselves. People are free to study my arguments make their objections objectively against mine, this has been the policy from day one. Let the people who read this make their own opinions.

quote:

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Originally posted by Humanized

you are not understanding what/why and for the reasons behind the Quran verses nor the occasions of the Ahadith. You always claim to be aware of the the Tafsir and your extreme knowledge of Quran !!!

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I guess I was too ignorant to understand 15.19 in Arabic and you are not, so feel free to teach me the truth.

I never claimed anything about the Koran and Hadis, take me as a laity. As for you to judge me which means you know Islam correctly and I do not. Actions speak louder than words so people can see through your finger pointing and see your arguments.

I am ignorant remember? After all you have been a Muslim for 30 years, so you can start with the Dar el Salaam/Dar el Harb concept after 15.19 that I wrote about and prove me wrong.

quote:

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Originally posted by Humanized

And yes, your lack of security is the reason behind hating Islam and muslims , and dont answer me with your contradictory argument "i dont hate muslims but i hate their ideology" just read it to yourself before you write it and try to find any sense in it.

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Yes, I am extremely worried people are going to prove Christianity wrong so I decided to join up this forum to constantly bash Islam so just incase someone has any logical arguments against Christianity I can bash Islam some more and forget about the obvious holes in Christianity. Great work!

Concerning the hating of Muslims and Islam, for about the third time I don’t hate Muslims but I hate your ideology. LIKE I DO NOT HATE RUSSIANS BUT I HATE COMMUNISM. It is a very basic concept.

After all the good and generous things that Muslims have done to the Christians since conquering it in the 8th century like not letting us in any state universities, forcing us to have Arabic spoken in OUR WORSHIP service (can you imagine if the Bush government forced the Muslims there to pray in English?), not to mention the gizya tax placed for being a Christian, kidnapping and raping of Christian woman on the streets are all justified in Islam (and I can prove this). So tell me, why shouldn’t I hate Islam?

quote:

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Originally posted by Humanized

you insult our Holy Book , you insult Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) , then you insult all muslims , then you claim to show all the lies about Islam , and that everyone is fooled by the ethics of Islam !!

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If your holy book and your holy prophet gives the followers permission to do the above plus repress every religion minority in the controlled country, yet you turn around and tell me that Islam is the most tolerant and nicest religion in the world, what am I going to believe? You or your religious holy book and prophet?

quote:

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Originally posted by Humanized

And you are the only Messiah who is trying to rescue the entire world from the dangers of Islam....because you know Islam ,Quran and Mohamed better than any one else .

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I never said that, you did. I never claimed to be the Messiah, nor know Islam or the Quran better than you but the thing you forgot, that I ask people to go through my argument and to see what I have to say and why then make their own decisions. People can see my argument vs. yours on various points and they can see who makes more sense.

I don’t care for your personal opinion of me so do you think anyone else will? Prove your point theologically not personally.

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Originally posted by Humanized

please try to get a life....

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I am not the one throwing a personal tantrum.[/B][/QUOTE]

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Originally posted by ben_elias:

I am not the one throwing a personal tantrum.

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hi Ben

nothing is personal around here , you dont know me and i dont know you to throw any personal tantrum.
but im just critisizing your style of showing your point ; and i know you dont need it but im just saying my opinion ,it's a public forums after all isn't it?

But i guess it's very clear to everyone that you hate Islam ; muslims as well , and if you really mean it when you say you don't hate muslims then at least you could respect their feelings when you insult their Quran and Prophet and beliefs .

You haven't provided anything new , tell me about a prophet who wasn't attacked ,insulted and ppl called him a liar?

I see no Muslims trying to defend that so it is clear they must be happy worshipping a false prophet and a Flase God of that false Prophets imagination. Idolisers and glorifiers of false Prophets you just have no defence and you stand on shaky ground.

So shaky that Muslims here dare not attempt to give account in the Sura 4:82 challenge. That is how week Islam is.

I was goaded by Muslims to challenge islam and they invited me to their forum to speak where over 1000 muslims were waiting to defend islam against my God given revelations.

So to their cost I did challenge islam and went to that islamic forum to take on that challenge. In front of that entire forum of over 1000 Muslims Islam bit the Dust. On that very day Islam bit the Dust. So easy that it was embarrising for Islam.

So you Muslims do not have a sound religion or a true religion and it is clear you do not worship the Livingh God and you worship[ a God of that false prophets imagination.

That is not something to brag about when you should bow your head ashamed.

quote:

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Originally posted by Humanized:
[B
nothing is personal around here , you dont know me and i dont know you to throw any personal tantrum.
but im just critisizing your style of showing your point ; and i know you dont need it but im just saying my opinion ,it's a public forums after all isn't it?

[/B]

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You can prove your point anytime. But only using authentic Islamic sources, show me that I am wrong, it shouldn’t hard since you have the right religion, true?

That shouldn’t be hard. You say for example that I take the Hadis out of context or I use the wrong Hadis. Shouldn’t you then show us what Hadis I really should have used instead?

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Originally posted by Humanized:

But i guess it's very clear to everyone that you hate Islam ; muslims as well , and if you really mean it when you say you don't hate muslims then at least you could respect their feelings when you insult their Quran and Prophet and beliefs .

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Lets settle it this way: I don’t hate you because you are a Muslim.

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Originally posted by Humanized:
[B

You haven't provided anything new , tell me about a prophet who wasn't attacked ,insulted and ppl called him a liar?

[/B]

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So you have heard my arguments before, if you have disproved what they say how come you can’t disprove my points? I said things like 52.24 (which is not properly translated in English) causes headaches and contradictions for you – the Muslim male, 15.19 says the world is flat, Alexander the Great in the Koran is wrong, the Sun does not revolve around the earth like what it says in the Koran and much more, instead of showing me where I have erred you have only stated it.

If Jesus said even half of those things like what Mohammed did then I believe that you have no qualms about pointing it out to me. None what so ever, but because they came out of Mohammed’s mouth then it must be true? What is holding you back to accept the truth? Or am I wrong? Where?

On a more positive note, here's what I suggest you do:

-- give to a charity that helps others
-- put in some volunteer time at a soup kitchen or homeless shelter. this is a particularly good idea for Americans on the morning of Thanksgiving. Makes you see for real the difference between your very comfortable life and the lives of people who have nothing.
-- go visit an elderly person in the local nursing home. they are lonely and would love the company
-- sign up for *meals on wheels* and deliver food to home-bound people. again, they are lonely and would love the company.
-- foster a pet from an animal shelter until it can be adopted out.
-- join the *adopt a road* program (here in the US) and go clean up the garbage on the side of a particular road every couple of months.
-- recycle
-- get rid of your SUV and buy a hybrid
-- give your children a big hug today, tell them you love them
-- contribute (again) to the tsunami victim relief fund(s)
-- send some money to Niger
-- send some money to the Gaza strip
-- *adopt* a Palestinian orphan buy sending as little as $300 USD a year

And most importantly:

If you are in the US, vote Democratic next time, will ya????

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Originally posted by Snoozin:
I understand being scared of something that is very different from anything you've ever known. I do.

But I don't understand your need to bash Islam here on a site whose membership is predominately Muslim. What is it you are trying to accomplish?

Because if you think spewing evil and cruel things about a person's religion is somehow going to make them *leave* that religion, you are only fooling yourselves. They will only entrench themselves further in their love for Islam. There are a lot of things I hate about my country (US), and I'm trying to fix them, but if someone comes out of left field excoriating my nation without trying to offer constructive criticism, it just makes me defend the US even more (even if I somehow agree with them!).

Do you *enjoy* being mean and cruel and insulting? Then you are no better than the evil you claim exists in Islam, as you denounce an entire religion.

So my real question to you is, what are you doing to make this world a better place? What, if anything, are you doing to reduce poverty? To increase health care and education? To reach out to your neighbor in peace? How much food have you given to your local food bank recently? Have you taken in a foster child? Have you even taken in a foster *pet?* What charities do you contribute to? What charities do you volunteer with? What have you done to improve race relations? What have you done to help abused children? How many times have you merely *smiled* at someone today who looks like he needs a smile?

If you do these types of things, and do them consistently, I promise that you will change the world to a better place much more quickly than if you spend your time denigrating those things you do not agree with.

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