quote:

---

some people say some how that hijaab is only a tradtion of some arabian culutue, and it not fard....and so on...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:
"And say to the female believers to cast down their be holdings, and preserve their private parts, and not display their adornment except such as is outward, and let them fix (Literally: strike) closely their veils over their bosoms, and not display their adornment except to their husbands, or…" (TMQ, 24:31).

---

bos·om ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bzm, bzm)
n.

The chest of a human: He held the sleepy child to his bosom. A woman's breast or breasts.
___________

How or where does it say a woman should cover her head?
 

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Posted by Dalia (Member # 1230) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snoozin:

How or where does it say a woman should cover her head?

---

It doesn't say that anywhere in the Qur'an, it's from the Sunna.

If you want to read a heated discussion about all different views on covering the head I suggest this link:
http://www.egyptmad.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4006



 

---

Posted by Snoozin (Member # 6244) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia:
It doesn't say that anywhere in the Qur'an, it's from the Sunna.

If you want to read a heated discussion about all different views on covering the head I suggest this link:
http://www.egyptmad.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4006

---

Thanks!
 

---

Posted by minry80 (Member # 8287) on :
 
Ok maybe this is a really stupid question but I am still new to this stuff. Can you be muslim and just follow the qur'an?
 

---

Posted by redmarrakesh (Member # 8201) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Morgan:
z z z z z ur so interestinggggg grr z z z z z z z

---

lol
 

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Posted by bold (Member # 9492) on :
 
lol
 

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Posted by sonomod (Member # 3864) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:
some people say some how that hijaab is only a tradtion of some arabian culutue, and it not fard....and so on...

here is sumthing from amr khaled stuff [on eposide 22]

It also has the values of Hijab; Allah says what can be translated as, "And say to the female believers to cast down their be holdings, and preserve their private parts, and not display their adornment except such as is outward, and let them fix (Literally: strike) closely their veils over their bosoms, and not display their adornment except to their husbands, or…" (TMQ, 24:31).





it a long series, but it really interseting, it got me glued,,,all 28 episode can be read from:
http://www.amrkhaled.net/acategories/categories161.html

bye

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by minry80:
Ok maybe this is a really stupid question but I am still new to this stuff. Can you be muslim and just follow the qur'an?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by newcomer:
However, if they actually read the Qur'an properly they would see that on many occasions Allah says in the Qur'an that Muslims should follow what is in the Qur'an and also what Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) also told us.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snoozin:

How or where does it say a woman should cover her head?

---

It doesn't say that anywhere in the Qur'an, it's from the Sunna.

If you want to read a heated discussion about all different views on covering the head I suggest this link:
http://www.egyptmad.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4006

---

Hey Snoozin,

I'm sorry to disagree with you, Dalia (hi, btw. - don't think we've met ). Snoozin, I would have expected you to know better, by now

The knowledge of deen (way of life) of Islam cannot be gained by reading books alone - even if, it is the Holy Quraan. That is why, in His wisdom, Allah s.w.t. sent not only the Prophet s.a.w. but also 124,000 of his companions to show us how to interpret the Quraan. Just because a person can speak (read, understand) arabic doesn't mean they can "understand" and "interpret" the Quraan (as many on this board do and thus fall into major mistakes). In Virtues of the Quraan, one of the books I suggested to you, the 14 fields of knowledge that one must be competent in in-order to even begin to interpret the Quraan are mentioned briefly.

For a defence on covering of the head not being necessary the basic outline is mentioned here:
http://www.submission.org/teenagers/dress-teens.html
For the classical view of how the Quraan has ordered women to cover their head see:
http://www.muhajabah.com/sunna-yes.htm

While the sahaba r.a. were alive the mistake of mis-interpreting the Quraan and taking it's apparent meanining (out of context) arose when some people interpreted the verse which mentions not to put yourself into harms way by your own hands. The newcomers applied it to those who, in a battle, charged into the thick of battle heedless of the consequences. The older sahaba r.a. mentioned that this verse was revealed about them when they wanted to stay at home and excuse themselves of not going out and stiving in the path of Allah s.w.t. - staying home is what is meant by putting yourself into harms way by your own hands !

Thus to interpret passages of the Quraan - we must look at how the prophet s.a.w. and his companions r.a. interpreted and applied them practically.

Was salaam,
 

---

Posted by Pendarth (Member # 8592) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia:
Here's an interesting link on this subject ...

http://www.free-minds.org/

---

Just browsing the "Free-Minds" site - I am hit by the impression that it is yet another site re-inventing Islam, remoulding, and reshaping it "to suit the present day environment."

Either we accept Islam as the final message and the prophet s.a.w. as the final messenger and take is a deen (way of life) which Allah s.w.t. perfected and completed (as is stated in the Quraan) - or discard it (or parts thereof), and try to make our own religion based our own understandings of what is applicable and pertinent in the modern day and go down the road of all the other "religions" that are around today.
 

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Posted by Kamal211 (Member # 7854) on :
 
Hi,

What is sunnah?

I would be confused why a women with islamic enlightment, morals and teaching, would even wanna show her hair and reject convering?

Please dont try to clear your guilt of your desires, i.e. rejecting hijaab, by making this desire acceptable/permissible.

If you dont wear it, I dont think you should misguide others,
Thanks

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snoozin:

How or where does it say a woman should cover her head?

---

It doesn't say that anywhere in the Qur'an, it's from the Sunna.

If you want to read a heated discussion about all different views on covering the head I suggest this link:
http://www.egyptmad.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4006

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pendarth:

I'm sorry to disagree with you, Dalia (hi, btw. - don't think we've met ).

---

Hi Pendarth,

could you clarify what exactly you disagree on? Although I can relate to some of the things written in the link I posted it does not necessarily reflect my personal opinion, if that's what you mean ...
 

---

Posted by Pendarth (Member # 8592) on :
 
k, then ... I don't disagree with you

take care,
 

---

Posted by Kamal211 (Member # 7854) on :
 
O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft­Forgiving, Most Merciful.

[Surah al-Ahzaab 33:59]
 

---

Posted by Dalia (Member # 1230) on :
 
Hi Kamal,

you should add for non-Arabic speakers that this is not an exact translation but an interpretation of the verse.

I assume you know very well that "juyubihunna" is not translated as "the whole body" but rather a specific part of it, namely the chest area.
 

---

Posted by Kamal211 (Member # 7854) on :
 
What is your Opinion on Ibn Abbas?
I heard that Ibn Abbas was blessed, in particular, with the knowledge and ability to say the meaning of the Quran? would you agree....
so therefore he is the best person to know what an ayah may mean.....
if you read on you will find out that in the Quran it does actually say that women are suppose to cover, so therefore it is a commandment from God.
I dont know if you wear it ir not, neither do you need to say, but you are defiently opposing hijaab, if you do get any enlightment from the following, the website is below, and also help others to understand the importance of hijaab, as i think this is one thing many muslim women try go around.
Refering to Amr Khaled again, in his Seerha during ramadhan, he mentioned how women played an important role in establishing Islam.
Even to this day, i do beleive women will play an important role in the revival of islam.
so it important for them to be educated and not fooled.


[يأَيُّهَا النَّبِىُّ قُل لاًّزْوَجِكَ وَبَنَـتِكَ وَنِسَآءِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلَـبِيبِهِنَّ ذلِكَ أَدْنَى أَن يُعْرَفْنَ فَلاَ يُؤْذَيْنَ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ غَفُوراً رَّحِيماً - لَّئِن لَّمْ يَنتَهِ الْمُنَـفِقُونَ وَالَّذِينَ فِى قُلُوبِهِمْ مَّرَضٌ وَالْمُرْجِفُونَ فِى الْمَدِينَةِ لَنُغْرِيَنَّكَ بِهِمْ ثُمَّ لاَ يُجَاوِرُونَكَ فِيهَآ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً - مَّلْعُونِينَ أَيْنَمَا ثُقِفُواْ أُخِذُواْ وَقُتِّلُواْ تَقْتِيلاً - سُنَّةَ اللَّهِ فِى الَّذِينَ خَلَوْاْ مِن قَبْلُ وَلَن تَجِدَ لِسُنَّةِ اللَّهِ تَبْدِيلاً ]


(59. O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their Jalabib over their bodies. That will be better that they should be known so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.) (60. If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who spread false news among the people in Al-Madinah stop not, We shall certainly let you overpower them, then they will not be able to stay in it as your neighbors but a little while.) (61. Accursed, they shall be seized wherever found, and killed with a (terrible) slaughter.) (62. That was the way of Allah in the case of those who passed away of old, and you will not find any change in the way of Allah.)

=========================
The Command of Hijab


Here Allah tells His Messenger to command the believing women -- especially his wives and daughters, because of their position of honor -- to draw their Jilbabs over their bodies, so that they will be distinct in their appearance from the women of the Jahiliyyah and from slave women. The Jilbab is a Rida', worn over the Khimar. This was the view of Ibn Mas`ud, `Ubaydah, Qatadah, Al-Hasan Al-Basri, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Ibrahim An-Nakha`i, `Ata' Al-Khurasani and others. It is like the Izar used today. Al-Jawhari said: "The Jilbab is the outer wrapper.

`Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said that Allah commanded the believing women, when they went out of their houses for some need, to cover their faces from above their heads with the Jilbab, leaving only one eye showing.
Muhammad bin Sirin said, "I asked `Ubaydah As-Salmani about the Ayah:


[يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلَـبِيبِهِنَّ]


(to draw their Jalabib over their bodies.) He covered his face and head, with just his left eye showing.''


[ذلِكَ أَدْنَى أَن يُعْرَفْنَ فَلاَ يُؤْذَيْنَ]


(That will be better that they should be known so as not to be annoyed. ) means, if they do that, it will be known that they are free, and that they are not servants or whores.


[وَكَانَ اللَّهُ غَفُوراً رَّحِيماً]


(And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.) means, with regard to what happened previously during the days of Jahiliyyah, when they did not have any knowledge about this.


=========================
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=33&tid=42155
 

---

Posted by Dalia (Member # 1230) on :
 
Hi Kamal

My objection regarding your post was that the interpretation of the verse, which is derived from ahadith, is slipped in to make it look like it's a direct translation.

My personal opinion - in short - is that Muslim women (and men) are asked to dress modestly, nothing more. I also think women should be free to decide how they interpret the verse and act accordingly. Nobody should be forced to cover or not to cover.

Regarding Amr Khaled - I wish he would put as much emphasis on the first part of the aya which asks men to lower their gaze. From what I observe in Egypt the problem is not the covering or non-covering of women but the overall behaviour of the men!
 

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Posted by Kamal211 (Member # 7854) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia:
I also think women should be free to decide how they interpret the verse and act accordingly. Nobody should be forced to cover or not to cover.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:
likewise, how some men disrespect their deen and do not lower gaze, as like women who also disrespect their deen and disregard hijaab.

---

quote:

---

I quoted the above, cos i'm in 101% disagreement, that i do think that mere muslim who only spend a few hours, if not minutes, of their day studying their religion, are given the authority to interept ayas/issues them selves, is ludicurous!

---

quote:

---

Its total disrespect to the ulema who give the
effort of their whole life to the teaching and understanding of islam, to have some women coming from the blue and saying this means that.

---

quote:

---

anyhow, i think the reference to Ibn Abbas, [ maybe you dont know who he is, he is a companion of SAWS, his uncles too] is sufficent and strong enough to back the hijaab.

---

That's fine with me. My point of view is different, but as I said, everyone should be entitled to their own conclusions ...

quote:

---

but generally i find egyptian [i think u are] straight in religion, and not grouping themselves with these or that kinda innovation.

---

I'm not sure I understand this statement, but FYI, I'm not Egyptian.


Oh, and I think you should remove your Kalashnikow when talking to a lady.

 

---

Posted by Kamal211 (Member # 7854) on :
 
Hi Dalia,

Ok I think you are typing without thinking.....I will point out a few things, and inshaAllah it will make it clear to you what you are really saying...

1) Our prophets SAW has taught and concluded Islam for us....If you want to make up your own conclusion, then you might of well just make up ur own religion

quote:

---

My point of view is different, but as I said, everyone should be entitled to their own conclusions ...

---

quote:

---

I know lots of Muslim women who take their religion extremely seriously and are very knowledgeable and chose not to cover because they don't see it as a requirement

---

Knowlegable? from where? Obviouly not from the Prophet SAW or his companion.

I know it almost mandotary in ES that every thread is treating like an argument or sumthing...but here I am only trying to emphasis a point [obligation of hijaab], and [b] help [b] you, so dont see it as an attack.

Infact through out this thread, subhanaAllah, those ayah and tafsir and hadith I never seen before, and they just came up as I was researching at the time of writing.
I did once think that hijaab was obligatory, then when I heard the point of views from others, I thought it was only culture of arabia [but was doubtful], and now, subhanAllah, I realise that Hijaab is even more so obligotory, and those evidence above, I will use for sure in the future, becuase they are as clear as daylight, that hijaab is so compulsory.

Of course you might think otherwise, which ir your right, and i'm willing to talk/debate as much needed, or as long as you are willing, to spread this sunnah

ma salama
 

---

Posted by Dalia (Member # 1230) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:
Ok I think you are typing without thinking....

---

quote:

---

Infact through out this thread, subhanaAllah, those ayah and tafsir and hadith I never seen before, and they just came up as I was researching at the time of writing.

---

quote:

---

I dont mean to be rude but it makes you wonder why the muslims are in the state they are today...

---

I don't mean to be rude either but I think part of the problem might be that many Muslims waste a lot of their time debating over a piece of fabric or whether it's haram or halal to pluck your eyebrows or not, sleep on your stomach or not etc. pp. instead of focussing on the things that really matter.


Take yourself, for example. You started this thread about the hijab. Why didn't you start a thread on the importance of prayer or any other thing that's fundamental in Islam? Or – as I mentioned before – why didn't you start a thread on the importance of lowering your gaze, asking Muslim men to behave modestly? I still feel men's overall behaviour in some Muslim countries is a far bigger problem for the overall morality of society than women's behaviour or dress.

There are so many issues to tackle, yet you chose to start a topic trying to convince women to cover their head. I'd really be interested in knowing why you personally think this issue is more important than so many others ...
 

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Posted by Kamal211 (Member # 7854) on :
 
Sure I would be more than happy to explain why I chose this.

But firslt, I want to point out that you completely missed out the main point of this thread, and rather replied to the petty points. also that any points/matters in Islaam is not a waste of time wethere it how you sleep, or how you eat, or how you pray.

**It would be interesting for me, to know how you came to the conclusion that hijaab is not obliged in deen.**
Was this based on your complete mind? I mean not based on anything, not even a weak hadith???

It alright, if you dont personally wear it, but it is important for you and the like fo you to know that it is obliged.

Now, why I picked this, I have read in thie forum [i think], and i have heard numerous times, that people say hijaab is not obligotroy,
This is something that was in my mind, they argue that it not written in the quran to wear it.
Infact I asked my friends if it was true that it doesnt say that to cover your hair, rather it says to cover urself.
It wasnt only a few days ago, that I was browsing somewhere, and I saw the above how it was written, and it made me think that those people who say "it not written in the quran", that ayah is a very good one t present to them, and see what they say.

So it was very interesting to know what you think, and honestly [being judgemental here], there are only two types of women here, I think you represent half of how women think here quite well.
If not, unforntunaly, most common muslimah around the globe.

Women make a certain difference in any civilisation, as I said before, no wonder why we in the state we are as muslim, among many other things:)

wa salam
 

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Posted by Morgan (Member # 6662) on :
 
Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 741

...The Prophet passed his hands over my head and blessed me. Then he performed ablution and I drank the remaining water, and standing behind him. A saw the SEAL in between his shoulders."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/056.sbt.html#004.056.741

Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 4, Number 189

...I stood behind him and saw the SEAL OF PROPHETHOOD between his shoulders, and it was like the "Zir-al-Hijla" (means the button of a small tent, but some said 'egg of a partridge.' etc.)

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/004.sbt.html#001.004.189

I gOt It To i'm a prOfET UPIIIIIIIIII )
 

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Posted by Morgan (Member # 6662) on :
 
----------------------------------------
Muslim, Book 024, Number 5279

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The bell is the musical instrument of the Satan.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/024.smt.html#024.5279

FuNnY IS'NT iT LOL BLA BLA BLA
Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 1, Number 2

Narrated 'Aisha: (...) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah's Apostle "O Allah's Apostle! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?" Allah's Apostle replied, "Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, ...

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/001.sbt.html#001.001.002
 

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Posted by Kamal211 (Member # 7854) on :
 
many Thanks for your input
 

---

Posted by Kamal211 (Member # 7854) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sonomod:
Not a man of theological knowledge.

It might just be me, but as a Lutheran we don't have Televangelists, our Pasters have Bachelors and more often masters or Phds in theology, not accounting. [/QB]

---

I missed you post there.
Are you german? I done a search to what a Luthern is, and it is a place in German?
I didnt really understand what you said there

where did Dalia disappear off to
 

---

Posted by Dalia (Member # 1230) on :
 
Working. No time for long posts.
 

---

Posted by Dalia (Member # 1230) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:

Now, why I picked this, I have read in thie forum [i think], and i have heard numerous times, that people say hijaab is not obligotroy,

---

You've also read in this forum that harrassment of women is a big problem in Egypt, yet you chose not to address this but address the covering of women instead.

I think that's a bit weird.
 

---

Posted by Kamal211 (Member # 7854) on :
 

Are you going to just critise why I picked this subject, rather than actually talk about it?

I honestly want to know why some women think it not fard

Maybe they have some good reasoning or evidence, but I have not seen any from you or anyone else yet!

quote:

---

for me, to know how you came to the conclusion that hijaab is not obliged in deen.**

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:
I honestly want to know why some women think it not fard

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:

Are you going to just critise why I picked this subject, rather than actually talk about it?

---

quote:

---

A minority view, however, argued that the 'awrah of men is limited to the groin and buttocks only; the thighs are not 'awrah. The 'awrah of women was a more complex matter. As noted below, the majority argued that all of a woman's body except the hands and face is 'awrah. Abü Hanifa held that the feet are not 'awrah, and some argued that half the arm up to the elbow, or the full arm, is not a 'awrah.A minority view held that even the face and hands are 'awrah and therefore, must be covered as well. An early minority view held that the hair and calves are not 'awrah. In addition, some argued that women must cover their hair at prayer, but not outside of prayer. Importantly, the jurists disgreed

---

quote:

---

Qur'ân 33:58-60. Reportedly these verses were revealed in response to several incidents in which the hypocrites of Medina harassed and molested Muslim women. Al-Râzî, al-Tafsîr al-Kabîr (1999), 9:183-184; al-Tabarî, Tafsîr al-Tabarî 6:199-200; al-Qurtubî, al-Jâmi' (1993), 14:157-158; Ibn Kathîr Mukhtasar Tafsîr Ibn Kathîr, 3:114-115.

---

quote:

---

Some of the late jurists argued that if a slave-girl will cause a fitnah she must cover her breasts or hair. Al-Hattâb relates that although a slave woman's 'awrah is the same as a man's, some have said that it is reprehensible

Al-Marghînânî, al-Hidâya, 1:44, mentions that slave-girls were not required to wear the veil because they need to work and requiring the veil would cause hardship (daf 'an li al-haraj).

---

Are you a slave women,,,,?


Finally, I think maybe you posted all that because you had enough .... or maybe you angry or sumthing...

I dont think there any point in going any further becuase there is no way you can support your argument, and you just strenghed my views that hijaab is 100% fard.
as i said before, it really is disrespect to God not to follow His commandment....
[yea and for men too, for whatever they dont follow].

hmm, anyone else with any other radical views
 

---

Posted by Automatic For The People (Member # 7160) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:
A very valid point indeed....

do you think this "behaviour" of men will

a)increase
or

b)decrease,

if more women covered their hair?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:
A very valid point indeed....

do you think this "behaviour" of men will

a)increase
or

b)decrease,

if more women covered their hair?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:

Finally, I think maybe you posted all that because you had enough .... or maybe you angry or sumthing...

---

As I said above, I posted this text not because I agree with everything written in there but to show you that there used to be way more diversity in the debate about covering or non-covering.


Besides, I doubt you even took a look at the links I posted.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:
I dont think there any point in going any further becuase there is no way you can support your argument, and you just strenghed my views that hijaab is 100% fard.

---

I am not trying to convince you of my point of view, I wrote in one of my earlier posts that I think debates with people like you lead nowhere. I was simply showing that the matter is not as black and white as you make it out to be.

 

---

Posted by Kamal211 (Member # 7854) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia:
I wrote in one of my earlier posts that I think debates with people like you lead nowhere. I was simply showing that the matter is not as black and white as you make it out to be.
[/QB]

---

Of course it aint going to go anywhere.
Cos the evidience I provided is un-debatable....
and actually, your post showed even more so that the matter is black and white.

I dont know you very well to say that u seeem a bit un-intelligent...or maybe your havein a stressful time at work

 

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Posted by Dalia (Member # 1230) on :
 
I leave the judgement as to who is exposing limited intellectual abilities in this debate to the readers of this thread.

 

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Posted by Kamal211 (Member # 7854) on :
 
ok

so are you muslim
 

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Posted by bibo1978 (Member # 9287) on :
 
Dalia,

you said you should not obey only but quran, ok so let us see what quran said:
"Say (i.e Mohamed) if you do love god then follow me so may god love you"
"You have had in your prophet (Mohamed) an idol"

if we didn't follow sunnah , then please dalia tell me where in quran do we get to know how to pray and when just tell me the versus, or how to fast where is it in the quran.

I believe that we should follow the sunnah 'cause simply it shows what was meant in quran, as we have followed it in praying, fasting and many other things, then i believe that women should also follow it in hijab "because simply hijab is what those versus above meant".
and if you don't believe in Mohamed's sunnah then why should you believe in the quran because the quran come through him, if you don't believe in him then why should you stick with the quran...
I only wanna demonstrate what you are saying. I don't mean that you don't believe in'em .. I only want to show the meaning that lies beneath.
 

---

Posted by Dalia (Member # 1230) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by bibo1978:
you said you should not obey only but quran

---

If you read my posts carefully you will see that I did say no such thing.

My personal opinion is that ahadith are important in order to determine and clarify the circumstances of things written in the Qur'an. I'm getting the impression, though, that many Muslims are putting the ahadith above the Qur'an. There are so many fatwas that are solely based on ahadith, some of them even contradicting what's written in the book.

I also think there is a reason why some verses in the Qur'an are clear and others are not and that reason might be that human beings are supposed to think, learn, question and then decide according to their best knowledge and consciousness.

I think God speaks to us directly through our heart and we have to learn to listen. If people stick to fatwas word by word without examining their own heart and consciousness they ignore this fact and put their fate in the hands of others whom they deem more authorized to make moral decisions.

Again, that's my personal opinion, I hope it makes sense to you.
 

---

Posted by bibo1978 (Member # 9287) on :
 
yes you didn't said so.. I am sorry.
but I believe that you believe so, do you ?
 

---

Posted by Kamal211 (Member # 7854) on :
 
so ur not a muslim after all...
that is a releif in some ways...
i was getting shocked, to think that this is how muslim women think these days.....phew..

cos alot of the time u were just contradicting urself and wondering if u even knew wat u talking about, but it all makes sense now...

well, mashaAllah, u seem to know quite a bit about islam....
sometimes it seems you trying to give the wrong image about Islaam, by acting as a muslim, especually with that name "Dalia" [ I guess it an arabic name for christain and muslim]...

p.s. do happen to have any relations with Morgan and/or kafir4ever

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia:
I also think there is a reason why some verses in the Qur'an are clear and others are not and that reason might be that human beings are supposed to think, learn, question and then decide according to their best knowledge and consciousness.
[/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:

i was getting shocked, to think that this is how muslim women think these days.....phew..

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:
p.s. do happen to have any relations with Morgan and/or kafir4ever

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bibo1978:
there are women who says so but they don't know a lot of islam they wanna obey themselves

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:
so ur not a muslim after all...
that is a releif in some ways...
i was getting shocked, to think that this is how muslim women think these days.....phew..

cos alot of the time u were just contradicting urself and wondering if u even knew wat u talking about, but it all makes sense now...

well, mashaAllah, u seem to know quite a bit about islam....
sometimes it seems you trying to give the wrong image about Islaam, by acting as a muslim, especually with that name "Dalia" [ I guess it an arabic name for christain and muslim]...

p.s. do happen to have any relations with Morgan and/or kafir4ever

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snoozin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:

p.s. do happen to have any relations with Morgan and/or kafir4ever

---

Kamal,

Dalia's questions are very legitimate and I'm sure you believe, as I do, that Islam is strong enough to stand up to the most harsh criticisms.

Please don't lump Dalia in with Kafir and Morgan.
Susan

---

I wernt lumpin anyone with anyone else jsut making sure...
If i never made sure she was/not muslim, i wud have never know...


and u r right, Islam sure is strong enough to hold anything, cos it the truth, and only truth
elhamduliah!
 

---

Posted by Snoozin (Member # 6244) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:
I wernt lumpin anyone with anyone else jsut making sure...
If i never made sure she was/not muslim, i wud have never know...


and u r right, Islam sure is strong enough to hold anything, cos it the truth, and only truth
elhamduliah!

---

Thanks!
 

---

Posted by Kamal211 (Member # 7854) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia:
First of all there are lots of Muslim women who share the same convictions I do. How do I know? Because I've talked to them.

---

I think ur right, very unfortunaly they do


maybe you can enlighten them with some of the things we discussed here...


oh you never told me what "Kalashnikow " means
 

---

Posted by Snoozin (Member # 6244) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:

oh you never told me what "Kalashnikow " means

---

Russian-made automatic assault rifle in your old profile picture, next to the Qur'an.
 

---

Posted by Kamal211 (Member # 7854) on :
 
why the

and that sammy took my pic away.....
 

---

Posted by Kamal211 (Member # 7854) on :
 
oh my pic is back

quote:

---

Oh, and I think you should remove your Kalashnikow when talking to a lady

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snoozin:
Please don't take respectful criticism of Islam personally. Dalia's questions are very legitimate and I'm sure you believe, as I do, that Islam is strong enough to stand up to the most harsh criticisms.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:
A very valid point indeed....

do you think this "behaviour" of men will

a)increase
or

b)decrease,

if more women covered their hair?

---

Hi Kamal,

My (and many other women's) personal experience in different countries shows that the more women are covered the worse the behaviour of the men.

---

Maybe, you and your fellow women should start from tomorrow taking off everything on you while walking around? this will bring the best men ever...I like the theory
 

---

Posted by Snoozin (Member # 6244) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:
why the

and that sammy took my pic away.....

---

WHY DO YOU HAVE A PICTURE OF AN ASSAULT RIFLE AND QUR'AN????

Makes you look like a terrorist.
 

---

Posted by kafir 4ever (Member # 9556) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snoozin:
Makes you look like a terrorist.

---

You have a dirty mind Snoozin
 

---

Posted by Troubles101 (Member # 4543) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snoozin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:
why the

and that sammy took my pic away.....

---

WHY DO YOU HAVE A PICTURE OF AN ASSAULT RIFLE AND QUR'AN????

Makes you look like a terrorist.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troubles101:
In the eyes of who?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snoozin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troubles101:
In the eyes of who?

---

In the eyes of me. Why mix religion with a weapon that kills people? A weapon that blows a head apart like a pumpkin? A weapon that orphans little children?

I'd say the same thing to a person who had a picture of an assult rifle with a Bible next to it. Or the Torah. I *hate* violence. I hate it. Makes me ill.

---

This is similar to the "TV is evil, it promotes violence and nuidty "and that stuff...those are only tools, they are not evil or good by themselves but the way we use them determine the kind of action. Do you think soldiers in every country are terrorists even those defending their countries?
 

---

Posted by Snoozin (Member # 6244) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troubles101:
This is similar to the "TV is evil, it promotes violence and nuidty "and that stuff...those are only tools, they are not evil or good by themselves but the way we use them determine the kind of action. Do you think soldiers in every country are terrorists even those defending their countries?

---

Of course not, Troubles. But do we have to mix religion with war, with violence, with killing? I fight and fight and fight and argue with my friends here in the US that Islam has nothing to do with violence, that those who commit unconscionable acts are not truly Muslim. For what? Only to see that picture on a religious man's profile page? Breaks my heart.

I have seen first hand what an automatic assault weapon does to a man's head. TEC-9 in my case. I've been in the crossfire myself. Brains bursting out of a cracked skull. Intestines on the sidewalk. The inner city streets of the US are a warzone in and of themselves.

I am greatly biased against violence for these reasons. If this is insulting to someone, that is not what I mean to do. But that picture is offensive to me. I just wanted Kamal to explain it, but he didn't.
 

---

Posted by Serendipity (Member # 7211) on :
 
troubles, its a matter of symbol.. rifle this day represent death. and to put it beside the quran, i think actually is a big insult. The quran is a guide for the living, while the rifle is the sentence to death.
Its not as old times when they used to have the sword as symbol of islam, Sword used to represent power. the rifle doesnt!
 

---

Posted by kafir 4ever (Member # 9556) on :
 
'' I *hate* violence. I hate it. Makes me ill.''

Well Muhammad was a very violent man, and Muslims are ordained to emulate his example, n'est-ce pas?
 

---

Posted by Serendipity (Member # 7211) on :
 
hello kafir .. we missed you
 

---

Posted by kafir 4ever (Member # 9556) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troubles101:
Do you think soldiers in every country are terrorists even those defending their countries?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snoozin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troubles101:
This is similar to the "TV is evil, it promotes violence and nuidty "and that stuff...those are only tools, they are not evil or good by themselves but the way we use them determine the kind of action. Do you think soldiers in every country are terrorists even those defending their countries?

---

Of course not, Troubles. But do we have to mix religion with war, with violence, with killing? I fight and fight and fight and argue with my friends here in the US that Islam has nothing to do with violence, that those who commit unconscionable acts are not truly Muslim. For what? Only to see that picture on a religious man's profile page? Breaks my heart.

I have seen first hand what an automatic assault weapon does to a man's head. TEC-9 in my case. I've been in the crossfire myself. Brains bursting out of a cracked skull. Intestines on the sidewalk. The inner city streets of the US are a warzone in and of themselves.

I am greatly biased against violence for these reasons. If this is insulting to someone, that is not what I mean to do. But that picture is offensive to me. I just wanted Kamal to explain it, but he didn't.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Serendipity:
troubles, its a matter of symbol.. rifle this day represent death. and to put it beside the quran, i think actually is a big insult. The quran is a guide for the living, while the rifle is the sentence to death.
Its not as old times when they used to have the sword as symbol of islam, Sword used to represent power. the rifle doesnt!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troubles101:
The picture doesn't make Kamal looks like terrorist to me, we simply don't know his intention, but I do find it inappropriate. weapons certainly bring a bad feeling.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia:

quote:

---

Originally posted by bibo1978:
there are women who says so but they don't know a lot of islam they wanna obey themselves

---

Most importantly, the historical setting and the complexity of the early context do suggest that the inquiries into the juristic basis of the hijab cannot be considered heretical. In this sense, labeling the hijab as a part of the usul [the foundations of the faith upon which disagreement is not tolerated], and using that label as an excuse to end the discussion in the matter, is obscenely despotic. It might very well be that this is yet another legal issue where the law of God is pursuant to the convictions of the pious adherent.

(Khaled Abu el Fadl)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by kafir 4ever:
The claim that Muslims act only in defence is patently untrue. What were the Muslims defending in Spain, France, India, Persia or at the very gates of Vienna? The fact that people were not prepared to become Muslims by choice does not constitute aggression toward the Muslims. The repeated claim that booty could not have been a motive because the holy war must have pure religious motives is insincere, for if it were so booty would surely not have been made an incentive.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snoozin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:
"And say to the female believers to cast down their be holdings, and preserve their private parts, and not display their adornment except such as is outward, and let them fix (Literally: strike) closely their veils over their bosoms, and not display their adornment except to their husbands, or…" (TMQ, 24:31).

---

bos·om ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bzm, bzm)
n.

The chest of a human: He held the sleepy child to his bosom. A woman's breast or breasts.
___________

How or where does it say a woman should cover her head?

---

Haw can u revert to an religion u don't nothing abaut
 

---

Posted by Snoozin (Member # 6244) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Morgan:
Haw

---

ROFL!


Morgan, a lawyer *never* asks a question s/he doesn't know the answer to. Think about it....you'll get it...
 

---

Posted by Morgan (Member # 6662) on :
 
Makes you look like a terrorist. [/QB][/QUOTE]


Interpretation of the Koran.

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, (which is Islam that abolishes all other religions) of the people of the Book, (meaning the Jews and Christians) until they pay the Jizya (the tax imposed upon them) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. (with humiliation and submission to the government of Islam)” 9:29

A final reference for this verse from the classic manual of Islamic sacred law (the “Reliance of the Traveler”):

The Caliph makes war upon the Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians, provided he has first invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, then invited them to enter the social order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax Jizya…in accordance with the word of Allah Most High:

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and His messenger have forbidden - who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book - until they pay the poll tax out of hand and are humbled." 9:29

The Caliph fights all other peoples until they become Muslim….

It is evident: the order to fight and kill Christians and Jews seems forever justified by verse 9:29. It is also clear that Muhammad ordered his followers to fight those Christians and Jews to convert them or pay the Jizya, and if they don't convert or pay, they were to be killed. The options are limited and crystal-clear: convert, …pay in a state of humiliated submission, …or die.
 

---

Posted by Morgan (Member # 6662) on :
 
Muhammad’s Actions, Speaking Louder than Words
Now, from the Muslim perspective using their own writings, let us examine in more detail some actions that Muhammad ordered. There are more incidents we could reference, but for the sake of time and space we have to limit the amount of detailed information (see Appendix B). This additional material is presented to facilitate honest evaluation and judgment of Muhammad himself, because it is only by his actions that he can and should be judged.

While reading the incidents below, we should continue to ask ourselves if real Islam, i.e. Muhammad’s Islam, allows aggressive violence and terrorism. The following 13 events and incidents (occurring in the last years of Muhammad’s life) will be examined:

1) The killing of Abu Afak.

2) The killing of Asma Marwan.

3) Attack upon the Banu Qaynuqa Jews.

4) The killing of Kab Ashraf.

5) The killing of Ibn Sunayna.

6) Attack against the Banu Nadir Jews.

7) The killing of the Shepherd.

8) Massacre of the Qurayza Jews.

9) The torture killing of Kinana.

10) The killing of a slave Wife and Mother.

11) The slaying of an old woman from Fazara.

12) The killing of Abdullah Khatal and his Daughter.

13) The attack upon Tabuk.
 

---

Posted by Morgan (Member # 6662) on :
 
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/stoning.htm
 

---

Posted by ibr (Member # 7492) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snoozin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troubles101:
The picture doesn't make Kamal looks like terrorist to me, we simply don't know his intention, but I do find it inappropriate. weapons certainly bring a bad feeling.

---

I am sorry if I offended you or anyone else. And
I understand your point about violence. As far as I know, there has never been a time in history that has been free from violence, and we are not evolved enough, apparently, to settle disputes with words rather than weapons. So in that respect, violence will sometimes be justifiable, but does it have to be glorified? To me, war is a failure of human intellect to solve a problem through civilized means.

So even in the context of a justified war, that picture bothers me.

Right now my country is at war, 2 wars we started, which I hate. But one of the things that goes along with this - is the cultural and societal justification of the violence committed by our troops. And it is disgusting to me to see this, because we are rationalizing the murder of innocent people in the name of the *war on terror.* Movie after movie (by liberal Hollywood) shows how we brainwash our troops to fill them with the desire to kill. We have to do that, for what normal human being is going to want to kill someone? We have to make sure we *dehumanize* the enemy, because it's a lot easier to kill someone we think of as a dog than a human with children at home. Our songs glorify war. One of the most popular country songs of the moment talks about a soldier getting letters from home. It mixes all these beautiful images of his mother and father loving and missing him, his wife waiting faithfully at home for him to return -- mixes these family-oriented, love-oriented themes with this phrase:

I fold it up and put it in my shirt,
Pick up my gun and get back to work
And it keeps me driving me on,
Waiting on letters from home.

http://www.hit-country-music-lyrics.com/letters-from-home-lyrics.html

HIS WORK IS KILLING PEOPLE. Love is good. Moms and dads are good. Wives are good. Killing must be good. All these images mixed together. I would not let my child listen to this song.

-------

Because every single human life is a miracle to me. Precious. Extraordinary. A gift from God. Every single human being has value. Where is *this* message in the picture or the song or the possession of a gun?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snoozin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troubles101:
The picture doesn't make Kamal looks like terrorist to me, we simply don't know his intention, but I do find it inappropriate. weapons certainly bring a bad feeling.

---

I am sorry if I offended you or anyone else. And
I understand your point about violence. As far as I know, there has never been a time in history that has been free from violence, and we are not evolved enough, apparently, to settle disputes with words rather than weapons. So in that respect, violence will sometimes be justifiable, but does it have to be glorified? To me, war is a failure of human intellect to solve a problem through civilized means.

So even in the context of a justified war, that picture bothers me.

Right now my country is at war, 2 wars we started, which I hate. But one of the things that goes along with this - is the cultural and societal justification of the violence committed by our troops. And it is disgusting to me to see this, because we are rationalizing the murder of innocent people in the name of the *war on terror.* Movie after movie (by liberal Hollywood) shows how we brainwash our troops to fill them with the desire to kill. We have to do that, for what normal human being is going to want to kill someone? We have to make sure we *dehumanize* the enemy, because it's a lot easier to kill someone we think of as a dog than a human with children at home. Our songs glorify war. One of the most popular country songs of the moment talks about a soldier getting letters from home. It mixes all these beautiful images of his mother and father loving and missing him, his wife waiting faithfully at home for him to return -- mixes these family-oriented, love-oriented themes with this phrase:

I fold it up and put it in my shirt,
Pick up my gun and get back to work
And it keeps me driving me on,
Waiting on letters from home.

http://www.hit-country-music-lyrics.com/letters-from-home-lyrics.html

HIS WORK IS KILLING PEOPLE. Love is good. Moms and dads are good. Wives are good. Killing must be good. All these images mixed together. I would not let my child listen to this song.

-------

Because every single human life is a miracle to me. Precious. Extraordinary. A gift from God. Every single human being has value. Where is *this* message in the picture or the song or the possession of a gun?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Morgan:
Muhammad’s Actions, Speaking Louder than Words
Now, from the Muslim perspective using their own writings, let us examine in more detail some actions that Muhammad ordered. There are more incidents we could reference, but for the sake of time and space we have to limit the amount of detailed information (see Appendix B). This additional material is presented to facilitate honest evaluation and judgment of Muhammad himself, because it is only by his actions that he can and should be judged.

While reading the incidents below, we should continue to ask ourselves if real Islam, i.e. Muhammad’s Islam, allows aggressive violence and terrorism. The following 13 events and incidents (occurring in the last years of Muhammad’s life) will be examined:

1) The killing of Abu Afak.

2) The killing of Asma Marwan.

3) Attack upon the Banu Qaynuqa Jews.

4) The killing of Kab Ashraf.

5) The killing of Ibn Sunayna.

6) Attack against the Banu Nadir Jews.

7) The killing of the Shepherd.

8) Massacre of the Qurayza Jews.

9) The torture killing of Kinana.

10) The killing of a slave Wife and Mother.

11) The slaying of an old woman from Fazara.

12) The killing of Abdullah Khatal and his Daughter.

13) The attack upon Tabuk.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bibo1978:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Morgan:
Muhammad’s Actions, Speaking Louder than Words
Now, from the Muslim perspective using their own writings, let us examine in more detail some actions that Muhammad ordered. There are more incidents we could reference, but for the sake of time and space we have to limit the amount of detailed information (see Appendix B). This additional material is presented to facilitate honest evaluation and judgment of Muhammad himself, because it is only by his actions that he can and should be judged.

While reading the incidents below, we should continue to ask ourselves if real Islam, i.e. Muhammad’s Islam, allows aggressive violence and terrorism. The following 13 events and incidents (occurring in the last years of Muhammad’s life) will be examined:

1) The killing of Abu Afak.

2) The killing of Asma Marwan.

3) Attack upon the Banu Qaynuqa Jews.

4) The killing of Kab Ashraf.

5) The killing of Ibn Sunayna.

6) Attack against the Banu Nadir Jews.

7) The killing of the Shepherd.

8) Massacre of the Qurayza Jews.

9) The torture killing of Kinana.

10) The killing of a slave Wife and Mother.

11) The slaying of an old woman from Fazara.

12) The killing of Abdullah Khatal and his Daughter.

13) The attack upon Tabuk.

---

Morgan,
1,2 and 9, all are fake stories there is no isnad for that where ever we can argue about it for ever it, this is as usual a jews fake stroies.
3,6 and 8 we all know the stories, it is all there fault for example banu enadeer they were making an allie with muslims and when the madina was threatened they were going to fight against the muslims from behind while they are still under the allie .. this would have ended islam forever.. same comes for the rest but with different stories they always never keep there word or they have tried to killed Mohammed (PBUH)
4,Kab ibn al-Ashraf was one of those who were consumed with hatred against the Prophet and the Muslims. Kab had become a real danger to the state of peace and mutual trust, which Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) was struggling to achieve in Madinah, fitnah if you know what does this mean I dunno if he was excused or not but he was killed.


12, Abdullah b. Khatal was sent by the Prophetsa to collect zakat, accompanied by an Ansar who served him. When they stopped, he ordered his companion to kill a goat for him and prepare some food before going to sleep. When he awoke the man had done nothing, so he killed him in anger and then recanted and defected to the Meccan Quraish.17 He was executed for the murder of an Ansari Muslim by Said b. Hurayth al-Makhzumi and Abu Barzh al-Aslami
One of Ibn Khatal’s two singing girls was killed for creating unrest against islam by singing satirical songs; the other was pardoned.

5,7,10 and 11. I never read about that in any sunnah book I assume for my current knowledge that these are fake stories as well,
we can fake forever "jews work", they don't fake in there religion but wow they fake in other's as well.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troubles101:
Ah you're a new member

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snoozin:
Dalia's questions are very legitimate and I'm sure you believe, as I do, that Islam is strong enough to stand up to the most harsh criticisms. I'm western too, and reconciling Islam with western mentality can be very difficult at times. It helps *me* to see these types of debates. I'm sure it helps others. Please don't lump Dalia in with Kafir and Morgan. I've never seen Dalia be anything but respectful. She's a strong personality, no doubt, but that doesn't mean she's disrespectful.

---

Thanks, snoozin. I think if Kamal wasn't so busy judging, labelling and insulting me and actually stopped to think for a while before posting he might have noticed a few things:

• I've been on this board for a bit more than three years and most people who have been around for a while know that I'm a German living in Egypt, it's been mentioned countless times. As for me chosing my username in order to "deceive" people – dahlia is used as a name in several languages since it's the name of a flower, named after the Swedish botanist Anders Dahl, it's also the name of a character from a P.G. Wodehouse novel (Dahlia Travers).
It's also not uncommon for people on Egypt-related messageboards to chose Arabic sounding names – for very obvious reasons.


• As for lumping me in with Kafir and Morgan, this statement speaks for itself and doesn't bode very well for the author's ability to read and comprehend. I don't think anyone carefully reading my posts would accuse me of Islam-bashing which is what those two are trying to do.

There's a huge difference between questioning particular interpretations and bashing a faith, and if you take a look at Islamic history it's obvious that during the prophet's time people were not afraid to ask questions and debate things, so I find it strange that people like Kamal think questioning a scholar's verdict is a sign of "disobedience" and lack of faith. I personally think that God speaks to us directly through our heart and our consciousness, not only through words. I also believe that in Islam people are asked to educate themselves, to become responsible, morally conscientious human beings that use not only their theoretical knowledge but also this "direct line" to their creator in order to make decisions.

My personal view is that Islam is way more flexible than many people make it out to be. I also think that critical thinking and being responsible for your own actions is an integral part of it, thus I can't relate to people who think an "authority's" verdict is not to be questioned and there is only one correct way, one correct interpretation for everything. Scholars are very knowledgeable human beings but they are not infallible; history and common sense tell us that not all of them are free of prejudice and / or personal agendas. They are important to help you gain knowledge but I find it very questionable if people completely rely on someone else to take decisions for them and blindly follow whatever they say.

I find it outright dangerous when people get to the point that they accept a scholar's opinion on everything. For example, if you look at the homosexuality thread, you will see that Kamal not only took the sheikh's religious verdict for granted but also assumed that, since he studied religion, his opinion on medical and societal facts had more weight than independent secular studies and he even accepted statements that were downright wrong, simply because they came from a scholar.


If a religion is supposed to be for all people and all times there has to be room for diversity and I think that might be part of the creator's plan.

("O humankind, God has created you from male and female and made you into diverse nations and tribes so that you may come to know each other. Verily, the most honored of you in the sight of God is he who is the most righteous." / "If thy Lord had willed, He would have made humankind into a single nation, but they will not cease to be diverse. . . . And, for this God created them [humankind].")
 

---

Posted by Kamal211 (Member # 7854) on :
 
Nice article....

Are you having second thoughts about being so anti-islamic?

quote:

---

Originally posted by kafir 4ever:
The Etiquettes of Women walking on the Streets

Women should refrain from wearing such adornments which may attract the men's attention on the streets, like bangles, anklets, etc. that make noise and make known the presence of a women.

During Jahiliyyah, when women walked in the streets wearing anklets and no one could hear them, they would stamp their feet so that men could hear their anklets ringing. Allah forbade the believing women to do this.

By the same token, if there is any kind of adornment that is hidden, women are forbidden to make any movements that would reveal what is hidden. Allah says in the Qur'aan: "And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornments." [Soorah an-Nur (24): 31]

We should also remind the sisters, that women are prohibited from wearing scent and perfume when they leave their houses, lest men should smell their perfume. Abu Musa (radhiyallahu anhu) said that the Prophet (sallallahu alaihe wa-sallam) said: "Every eye commits fornication and adultery, and when a woman puts on perfume and passes through a gathering, she is such and such meaning an adulteress." [At-Tirmidhee, similar Hadeeth is also reported by Abu Hurayrah with a Hasan isnad in Tuhfat al-Ahwadhi (8/70)]

It is also worth mentioning that women should try to walk to the sides of the road and not in the middle. Perhaps, this is to avoid mixing with men on the street etc. Abu Usayd al-Ansari said that he heard the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu alaihe wa-sallam) as he was coming out of the Masjid and men and women were mixing in the street, telling the women: "… You should keep to the sides of the road."

The women used to cling to the walls so much that their clothes would catch walls.

[Abu Dawood (this is a weak narration but there are other narrations to support its meaning, which would classify it as Hasan. See Saheeh al-Jamee as-Sageer)]

Edited By IslamWay Sisters
Taken From
www.alhaya.org

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quote:

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Originally posted by Snoozin:


Makes you look like a terrorist. [/QB]

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Me a terrorist

..noooooo.... I aint a [certian type] of American or Westerner...


I hate violence aswell
Our prophet SAWs always avoided war when possible...
but as we all know sumtimes it not always possible but have to resort tosome sort of violence...

so let strive for Jannah, InshaAllah, where there are no violence

quote:

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rifle this day represent death. and to put it beside the quran, i think actually is a big insult. The quran is a guide for the living, while the rifle is the sentence to death.
Its not as old times when they used to have the sword as symbol of islam, Sword used to represent power. the rifle doesnt!

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sorry seren,
IT depend who is holding the rifle, and who where....
I think the rifle in present day can also mean, protection, even peace:)

the rifle and Quran goes in [some-what] perfect harmony,,,
cos... the user of the rifle is someone who will abide by the quran, with moral, dignity, and with a good concious....

not to shoot children and women, and make prisoners starve in prision, or make prisoners do all sort of immoral acts [for thier self pleasure], just cos the holder of the rifle, has certain power.
 

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Posted by Dalia (Member # 1230) on :
 
Get real, people!

Pictures in the media influence our perception to a great deal. Something that has no or no negative connotation can become a negative symbol depending on the context in which it is often used. The Kalashnikow, particularly in combination with a Qur'an or suras from the Qur'an, has indeed become a symbol of terrorism and the terrorists themselves have been playing with this symbolism a lot.

I could just as well wear a swastika around my neck or on my clothes and argue that the swastika was used by many cultures for thousands of years as a symbol of power, life and good luck but I doubt it would be perceived in this way because its original meaning has been replaced with another, very negative one in the heads of most of us ...
 

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Posted by bibo1978 (Member # 9287) on :
 
Troubles101,

Is it that obvious

Dalia,

I totally agree with you but there are facts in islam that can't be reverted it doesn't come from us, these facts are the quran and Mohammed's (PBUH) sunnah, for example homosexuality is forbidden for men and women and this is stated in the quran:
Surah An-Nisaa> Verse 15,16
"
If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them (I believe this means life time prison), or Allah ordain for them some (other) way. If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
"
We can't talk about it from islam point of view it is totally forbidden.
I think discussion is well for mind when mind want to get to the truth, not the mind that don't want to open just arguing and that's it and also not the mind seeking for what it likes (el hawa once again). I mean that there are many things that might not be likelyfull for you or any of us (hijab for example) so usually we seek for other way around just to get a way around it, if we are not seeking the truth this will end to the wrong way, however if we are seeking the truth and we ask god to show us the right way the way will just follow, we do this asking for god guidance in every pray more than once (el fat7ah), for me I don't want to tailor the religion just that it might follow my willingness I wanna follow the truth hopefully I could, I have searched for the right religion and I have found it and ISA I don't wanna lose it ever. So may that happen ISA.
 

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Posted by kafir 4ever (Member # 9556) on :
 
''Our prophet SAWs always avoided war when possible...
but as we all know sumtimes it not always possible but have to resort tosome sort of violence...''

Kamal, would it be okay if, say for example, Hindus give ultimatums to Muslims to convert and if they fail “as a last resort” take arms against them?

Because of the example of abuse set by Muhammad, Muslims felt it is their religious duty to destroy thousands of temples belonging to Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists and other religions. What Muhammad did was barbarous and Muslims follow the example of this rogue wild eyed lunatic and this is why we have so much killing and so much war that will never end until Islam is not slain.

“Fight them to eliminate oppression”? What oppression? The very existence of people of other beliefs for Muslims is considered to be oppression. I received an e-mail from a terrorist organization in Nigeria complaining that the Christians are scholars and they are converting everyone to Christianity. They were seeking funds and the help of other terrorist organization such as Aq Qaida and Hamas to start a Jiahd and end this “oppression”.

A couple of days ago a humanitarian organization in Pakistan financed by a Christians was raided that left 6 people dead and many others injured. What did those volunteers serving the community do to deserve this death? They were doing humanitarian work. But the Islamic terrorist considered that as oppression. If people preach their religion this is for you Muslims regarded as oppression. A couple of Months ago also in Pakistan a Christian run school was attacked and many children were massacred.

Did the Jews and the Christians of Arabia oppress the Muslims? Why Muhammad raided their towns massacred them and banished them? Why he ordered the ethnic cleansing of Arabia from the Jews and the Christians in his deathbed? Why he attacked Yemen? Were Yemenis oppressing the Muslims? Were Persians oppressing the Muslims? What about Egypt, Syria, Spain, India or Europe?

Muslim’s aggressive wars, are about violently raiding the unbelievers and killing those who resist. Those who “resist” or “any move they make” must be "punished". Only those who "surrender" and pay the obligatory Zakat can be forgiven. Oh yeah, and God is “merciful”! What a mockery of God and his mercy! Even the very name of Islam which mean surrender is sickening!

In in the case of the Jews Muhammad would break his own treaties at will anytime he felt there is not fear of retribution.

Furthermore "treaties" demanded by Muslims were anything but fair. The Muslim army would demand its prospect victims to "surrender" to Islam and pay Zikat, or keep their religion and pay Jizya, which was a higher penalty tax accompanied with humiliation, or face war. These were the conditions of the "treaties" such as the one offered to Persia prior to the invasion of that country. So much for the "treaties" In the 30s Chicago was infested by gangsters who would also offer similar "treaties" to the business owners. They would offer them the choice of paying the "protection fee" or face retribution.
 

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Posted by bibo1978 (Member # 9287) on :
 
As usual kafir4ever is mistaken in many things let us see:

1- Zakat is not gijyah and zakat comes from muslims and goes to muslims and non-muslims, zakat is on all muslims including Mohammed (PBUH) .. strange huh
2- Gizyah was made for non-muslims, such that they don not participate in war yet the muslims defends there land and property in islamic country, however today gijyah is not used because there is the civilization law, which means that they don't pay jizyah but they participate in wars with muslim.. don't believe it go and check www.elazhar.com
Jizyah for non muslim country serves two purpose, a- it doesn't make the other country fight prepare warriors for fight against islam
b- also muslim will fight anyone who would try to invade the countries, so it is some kind of treaty also
taking jizyah from countries was never done in Mohammed's (PBUH) life yet it makes no difference because it was mentioned in Quran.
3- about Mohammed killing jews, well after Mohammed death there were still jews in el madina, this is where he leave .. that's not true try and read history a bit .. bani quynee and bani el nadeer and bani qurayzah were punished upon there cheating and traitory, I won't go to details you have read or you won't even listen to. Yemen never fought against islam, because simply islam went Yemen with no fight at all, islam war and most were done after Mohammed's (PBUH) death all of these wars were just to make people listen to the islam's rules and religion, and this had happened before islam with jews, jews have fought for religion before.
One other thing and it is true but you won't listen, all the wars were Mohammed (PBUH) has fought all of them there were only 500 people killed (in all the wars) and non of them were civilian, for example in badr there were only 30 killed .. while in the crusades more the one million people were killed (innocent million people) plus what was killed in war.. well if this makes u think that he (PBUH) was fighting for death then sure numbers shows the truth ..!!
Kafir4ever your proves are fake and your claims are wrong all your delimma are back at you are you obessessed with islam hatard
 

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Posted by bibo1978 (Member # 9287) on :
 
One other thing kafir if Mohammed (PBUH) was obessessed with money as you claim, so tell me where is his castles and were is his gold and where is his throne, crown, and why days had passed on 'em (PBUH) while he never eat but dates, he never let anyone who asks'em anything down even if he had no money he would say go and buy on me. his houses were very small that you can't live at, have some reason kafir, or else you would say he had thrown the money in the sea.
Kafir4ever your proves are fake and your claims are wrong all your delimma are back at you are you obessessed with islam hatard
 

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Posted by Snoozin (Member # 6244) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Troubles101:
You offended me NOT!

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I'm glad, because I respect you a lot.

quote:

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Originally posted by Troubles101:

We all are innocent till proven guilty.

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You are right.
 

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Posted by kafir 4ever (Member # 9556) on :
 
b- also muslim will fight anyone who would try to invade the countries, so it is some kind of treaty also
taking jizyah from countries was never done in Mohammed's (PBUH) life yet it makes no difference because it was mentioned in Quran.

However, as the facts stands the non-believers did not attack the Muslims. It were Muslims who attacked Mecca, Kheibar, and the Jewish quarters of Medina. Was it the Persians who raided the Muslims? Was it India that was preventing the Arabs from worshiping Allah? Did Spain come to fight against the Muslims? If Allah was God, one would expect a grain of honesty from his messenger and his followers.

''Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness (qilzat) in you.'' verse

Muhammad said anyone who does not believe in him must be killed. But he spared the lives of the Christians and the Jews provided they pay a penalty tax. In Keibar he exacted 50% of all the crops produced by the Jews from their own lands that he confiscated to be given to him. Is this not oppression? Of course when Muhammad died Omar banished all those poor Jews from Keibar altogether. The Quran is unequivocal when it comes to oppressing the non believers.

"Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior"

Muslims who claim that Islam is a religion of peace and quote the Quranic verses where Muhammad keeps reminding that Allah is the Merciful and Forgiving, when shown these verses of Quran and the bloody legacy of the Prophet's wars and plunders, change their tactic and boast that “Yes, Islam allows the use of violence under certain defined circumstances”

What are those “defined conditions”? Let us make it clear that we are not talking about using force against common criminals, murderers or rapists. We are talking about violence against innocent people who do not accept Muhammad’s claim of prophethood and prefer to worship their own God, in their own way or worship none if they choose so.

Capital punishment by death has been eliminated in most of the civilized world. But even those countries that still practice it kill the convicts by lethal injection or another painless and humane way. They never torture them or maim them. Yet Muhammad prescribed the worst tortures for those who do not accept his religion.

"Retribution of those, who wage war against ALLAH and HIS Messenger and strive to create disorder in the land, is that they be slain or crucified or their hands and feet be cut off on account of their enmity, or they be expelled from the land. That shall be a disgrace for them in this world, and in the Hereafter they shall have a great punishment.” verse

One question that I was never able to get an answer for is: if Allah wants to kill the unbelievers, why he does not do it himself? It should be easy for him to kill them, maim them, burn them, and strike them with all sorts of disasters and calamities to satisfy his vengeful nature and bloodthirsty mood. Why instead he asks his messenger and his zealots to do his dirty work? Is it perhaps that he is incapable to do it on his own? Or is it that he is no god at all but the figment of Muhammad’s mind, a convenient scarecrow that would give the self acclaimed prophet unlimited power to plunder, rape and govern the lives and minds of those ignorant barbarians who believed in the concoction of his lies?

Muhammad claimed that the disbelief in Allah was the greatest crime punishable by death. Who benefited from this? He was the only contact between Allah and his foolish followers. Disobedience to him meant disobedience to God. Would really God care if people believed in Him or not? What does he get out it? Would really God’s self esteem be hurt if these primates of the Earth did not recognize and praised him? Would he really be so offended that he would burn people eternally? That is an absurd preposition. But it gave Muhammad the same power as God to do anything he wished with no one to question him. He got the cart blanch to kill anyone, to demand his followers to go and fight even their own allies, relatives and friends and bring 20% of the booty to him. It gave him right to sleep with any number of women and choose the youngest and the prettiest of the captive women. The more he exalted Allah the more his power grew. Allah was an excuse that empowered a power hungry man to rise from poverty to absolute dominance and make him even dream of conquering the great kingdoms of Persia and Byzantine.
 

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Posted by kafir 4ever (Member # 9556) on :
 
1,2 and 9, all are fake stories there is no isnad for that where ever we can argue about it for ever it, this is as usual a jews fake stroies.

In this hadith we read that Muhammad complained of Ka’b for badmouthing him in his poetries and asked his followers "Who is willing to kill Ka`b bin al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His apostle?"
web page
The quoted hadiths are the Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. These books are considered authentic by the majority of the Muslims.
 

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Posted by Snoozin (Member # 6244) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Dalia:
My personal view is that Islam is way more flexible than many people make it out to be.

....If a religion is supposed to be for all people and all times there has to be room for diversity and I think that might be part of the creator's plan.

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I grew up outside of DC, in a fairly affluent county suburb. When I was in high school, college, and in my neighborhood now -- many Muslim teens engage in what is called *halal dating.* They can go out in groups of teens, or supervised by family members. There are teenaged girls playing high school sports. They wear loose sweat pants instead of the shorts. These are the accommodations they made to balance their American culture with their beloved religion.

This behavior is considered outrageously strict by American standards. Even backwards. And these kids are acting extremely modest by American standards. But they are kind to others; their parents bring them up participating in charities, giving to the needy, and I admire them greatly. They seem to grow much less self-centered than a lot of American youth. They are mindful of their religion and God, and they are decent, happy young people.

Is there not room in Islam for this?
 

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Posted by kafir 4ever (Member # 9556) on :
 
3- about Mohammed killing jews, well after Mohammed death there were still jews in el madina, this is where he leave .. that's not true try and read history a bit .. bani quynee and bani el nadeer and bani qurayzah were punished upon there cheating and traitory,

The history written by the victor is highly biased. We can never learn about the truth of what happened in Medina to the Jews. But even by examining the very biased story written by the Muslims it becomes clear that it was Muhammad who broke the treaty with the Jews and not the other way round. (but that's another thread)

Now let us assume that actually it was the Banu Qurayza what broke the treaty. Would this justify Muhammad massacring all of them and selling as slaves their women and children? This mentality is extremely troublesome. Usually the people who decide on behalf of a nation are their leaders, if the leaders do something wrong, should the entire population be punished? Milosovic is a war criminal, does that allow us to go and massacre the entire Yugoslav population? Saddam Hussein is a criminal too; should we massacre all the Iraqis, enslave their wives and children?

When Banu Quraiza was besieged by Muhammad’s men the army of Allah shut the water supply to them. Imagine the hardship that the children had to go through. Finally they decided to surrender. No fight ever took place. Now they are prisoners of war. What would the merciful messenger of Allah do to his prisoners of war? He would order the massacre of all the men and enslavement of all the woman and children. To separate men from the boys he ordered the youngsters to take off their pants for him to inspect and see if they had grown any pubic hair. If they had he ordered killing them, if not he sold them to serve as slaves. Is growing pubic hair a crime punishable by death? What was the guilt of a 12-year old boy who just happened to have grown pubic hair?

''Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:
I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined us, and those who had begun to grow hair (pubes) were killed, and those who had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair.'' verse

The fact of the genocide of the Jews and the Christians ordered by Muhammad is clear from this hadith

''The Prophet on his death-bed, gave three orders one of them was to Expel the pagans from the Arabian Peninsula.''


Go ahead and deny the authenticity of this hadith. It is classified as Sahis but you are a Muslims and lying in defense of Islam is good.

And the fact the Muhammad enslaved free people is clear from this hadith

''Sa'd's (the man chosen by the Prophet to decide the fate of the Bani Quriaza) verdict was "that all the able-bodied male persons belonging to the tribe should be killed, women and children taken prisoners and their wealth divided among the Muslim fighters."

What does "take their women and children as prisoners" mean. What did those women and children do? What was the purpose of keeping them as prisoners? They became slaves to the captors and since no Muslim fought in this war, they all went to the estate of the Prophet and he sold them. He kept Rayhana for his own sexual pleasures.

The fact that this war enriched Muhammad is also clear from the following hadith

Narrated Anas bin Malik:
''People used to give some of their datepalms to the Prophet (as a gift), till he conquered Bani Quraiza and Bani An-Nadir, whereupon he started returning their favors''

Now I hope there is a grain of humanity in you and you come to your senses.

"The truths of religion are never so well understood as by those who have lost the power of reasoning."...Voltaire
 

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Posted by Troubles101 (Member # 4543) on :
 
bibo, you got our friends Kafir and Morgan very excited
 

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Posted by kafir 4ever (Member # 9556) on :
 
I already quoted the hadith were Muhammad enslaved the women and children of banu Quriaza. Then he moved to Kheibar and did the same in that town.

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) offered the Fajr prayer when it was still dark, then he rode and said, 'Allah Akbar! Khaibar is ruined. When we approach near to a nation, the most unfortunate is the morning of those who have been warned." The people came out into the streets saying, "Muhammad and his army." Allah's Apostle vanquished them by force and their warriors were killed; the children and women were taken as captives. Safiya was taken by Dihya Al-Kalbi and later she belonged to Allah's Apostle go who married her and her Mahr was her manumission.

Muhammad had so many slaves that only Ayesha who was just one of his many wives manumitted 40 of them in one occasion when she broke an oath as expiation. Now one can just imagine how many slaves did she actually have and how many slaves Muhammad's other wives had. Where did they get these slaves, except through capturing them is several wars? see

He got these people by raiding their homes and sold them for profit. However there is indication that he also considered beating them is okay. In Hadith Sahli Bukhari he advised his followers not to beat their wives like a stallion or a slave and then sleep with them.

In the hadith
Muhammad orders "every male or female, free man or slave, the payment of one Sa' of dates or barley as Sadaqat-ul-Fitr" This shows also that slavery was accepted in Islam.

Raiding without warning, killing the men and enslaving the women had become a trademark of Muhammad. If fact the word Qazvah means sudden attack.

Narrated Ibn Aun:

I wrote a letter to Nafi and Nafi wrote in reply to my letter that the Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives; the Prophet got Juwairiya on that day. Nafi said that Ibn 'Umar had told him the above narration and that Ibn 'Umar was in that army.
 

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Posted by bibo1978 (Member # 9287) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by kafir 4ever:
1,2 and 9, all are fake stories there is no isnad for that where ever we can argue about it for ever it, this is as usual a jews fake stroies.

In this hadith we read that Muhammad complained of Ka’b for badmouthing him in his poetries and asked his followers "Who is willing to kill Ka`b bin al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His apostle?"
web page
The quoted hadiths are the Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. These books are considered authentic by the majority of the Muslims.

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quote:

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Originally posted by kafir 4ever:
b- also muslim will fight anyone who would try to invade the countries, so it is some kind of treaty also
taking jizyah from countries was never done in Mohammed's (PBUH) life yet it makes no difference because it was mentioned in Quran.

However, as the facts stands the non-believers did not attack the Muslims. It were Muslims who attacked Mecca, Kheibar, and the Jewish quarters of Medina. Was it the Persians who raided the Muslims? Was it India that was preventing the Arabs from worshiping Allah? Did Spain come to fight against the Muslims? If Allah was God, one would expect a grain of honesty from his messenger and his followers.

''Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness (qilzat) in you.'' verse

Muhammad said anyone who does not believe in him must be killed. But he spared the lives of the Christians and the Jews provided they pay a penalty tax. In Keibar he exacted 50% of all the crops produced by the Jews from their own lands that he confiscated to be given to him. Is this not oppression? Of course when Muhammad died Omar banished all those poor Jews from Keibar altogether. The Quran is unequivocal when it comes to oppressing the non believers.

"Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior"

Muslims who claim that Islam is a religion of peace and quote the Quranic verses where Muhammad keeps reminding that Allah is the Merciful and Forgiving, when shown these verses of Quran and the bloody legacy of the Prophet's wars and plunders, change their tactic and boast that “Yes, Islam allows the use of violence under certain defined circumstances”

What are those “defined conditions”? Let us make it clear that we are not talking about using force against common criminals, murderers or rapists. We are talking about violence against innocent people who do not accept Muhammad’s claim of prophethood and prefer to worship their own God, in their own way or worship none if they choose so.

Capital punishment by death has been eliminated in most of the civilized world. But even those countries that still practice it kill the convicts by lethal injection or another painless and humane way. They never torture them or maim them. Yet Muhammad prescribed the worst tortures for those who do not accept his religion.

"Retribution of those, who wage war against ALLAH and HIS Messenger and strive to create disorder in the land, is that they be slain or crucified or their hands and feet be cut off on account of their enmity, or they be expelled from the land. That shall be a disgrace for them in this world, and in the Hereafter they shall have a great punishment.” verse

One question that I was never able to get an answer for is: if Allah wants to kill the unbelievers, why he does not do it himself? It should be easy for him to kill them, maim them, burn them, and strike them with all sorts of disasters and calamities to satisfy his vengeful nature and bloodthirsty mood. Why instead he asks his messenger and his zealots to do his dirty work? Is it perhaps that he is incapable to do it on his own? Or is it that he is no god at all but the figment of Muhammad’s mind, a convenient scarecrow that would give the self acclaimed prophet unlimited power to plunder, rape and govern the lives and minds of those ignorant barbarians who believed in the concoction of his lies?

Muhammad claimed that the disbelief in Allah was the greatest crime punishable by death. Who benefited from this? He was the only contact between Allah and his foolish followers. Disobedience to him meant disobedience to God. Would really God care if people believed in Him or not? What does he get out it? Would really God’s self esteem be hurt if these primates of the Earth did not recognize and praised him? Would he really be so offended that he would burn people eternally? That is an absurd preposition. But it gave Muhammad the same power as God to do anything he wished with no one to question him. He got the cart blanch to kill anyone, to demand his followers to go and fight even their own allies, relatives and friends and bring 20% of the booty to him. It gave him right to sleep with any number of women and choose the youngest and the prettiest of the captive women. The more he exalted Allah the more his power grew. Allah was an excuse that empowered a power hungry man to rise from poverty to absolute dominance and make him even dream of conquering the great kingdoms of Persia and Byzantine.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Troubles101:
bibo, you got our friends Kafir and Morgan very excited

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quote:

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Originally posted by bibo1978:

quote:

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Originally posted by Troubles101:
bibo, you got our friends Kafir and Morgan very excited

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well good discussion will never hurt unless we don't disgrace each others believes. I hope they might see some reason. and I hope all get benefit of this

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With Kafir and Morgan, it's hardly called discussion. I'm like should I tell you or let you find by yourself. Have you been to yahoo chat rooms before? I was there few yrs ago and had a talk for like 5 minutes with someone and I thought I was having dialogue until this person sounded very mechanical and that was when I found out it was not a human being I'm talking to but some programmed bot. Kafir is exactly the same, he makes me wonder sometimes if he/she is real human being or just a bot since not a single post of his, is coming from him, he is no more than an internet search tool. As for Morgan , this is a retard human being or perhaps an older version of our bot Kafir with too much deficiencies, I bet the company that created it went broke. but for sure your words will reach some ears but don't rely much on kafir or morgan's ears
 

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Posted by kafir 4ever (Member # 9556) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Troubles101:
I was there few yrs ago and had a talk for like 5 minutes with someone and I thought I was having dialogue until this person sounded very mechanical and that was when I found out it was not a human being I'm talking to but some programmed bot.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Troubles101:

quote:

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Originally posted by bibo1978:

quote:

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Originally posted by Troubles101:
bibo, you got our friends Kafir and Morgan very excited

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well good discussion will never hurt unless we don't disgrace each others believes. I hope they might see some reason. and I hope all get benefit of this

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With Kafir and Morgan, it's hardly called discussion. I'm like should I tell you or let you find by yourself. Have you been to yahoo chat rooms before? I was there few yrs ago and had a talk for like 5 minutes with someone and I thought I was having dialogue until this person sounded very mechanical and that was when I found out it was not a human being I'm talking to but some programmed bot. Kafir is exactly the same, he makes me wonder sometimes if he/she is real human being or just a bot since not a single post of his, is coming from him, he is no more than an internet search tool. As for Morgan , this is a retard human being or perhaps an older version of our bot Kafir with too much deficiencies, I bet the company that created it went broke. but for sure your words will reach some ears but don't rely much on kafir or morgan's ears

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Troubles101, well may be what you said is true this don't listen but until now I don't have anything against them and I don't want to, and may be they will finally hear some words at least you never know ..
kafir and morgan,
I don't mean any insult to you,these discussions are very helpful for me
 

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Posted by Dalia (Member # 1230) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by bibo1978:
I only said that they follow thereselves "el hawa", we all sometimes follow it but there is a difference betweem following it while knowing that it is wrong or if you want god to follow you. i.e. you want to tailor the religion, and this is wrong in islam you can't do it.

---

You did close the discussion because stating that women who chose not to cover are either consciously "disobeying" a rule or don't have enough knowledge is a discriminating statement that leaves no room for further discussion.

I'm aware of all the arguments for covering and I respect every woman who choses to wear hijab. I couldn't care less what people wear on their head or not because I judge them according to what's inside. But I don't automatically assume that an opinion is more valid than the other just because it is supported by the majority of scholars. The mere fact that the majority follows an opinion doesn't necessarily make it right – at a certain point in history the majority agreed on the fact that the earth was flat, for example ...

My main point throughout this whole discussion was not mainly whether covering is obligatory or not but that it bothers me big time when people are trying to force their personal opinions and convictions on others. I think we should first focus on ourselves and on becoming better persons before trying to tell others what to do and how to live.
And it bothers me that some people think the moral state of a society is dependent on if and how much women cover themselves, while it's obvious that there are way more important subjects to tackle! Also – as I stated before – it annoys me big time that people always focus on the second part of the aya which speaks about covering and completely ignore the first part which, in my opinion, is way more important. They even go as far as claiming that the first part might be neglected because if women covered enough, there would be no need for men to lower their gaze. That's a very faulty logic in my opinion and quite outrageous, btw, because again all the responsibility is assigned to women!

I might also add that, according to my personal experience living in different countries, it's the other way around. If men learn that women are not sexual objects but have to be respected and that staring at women and harrassing them is something completely unacceptable it hardly matters what you wear. I'm very sorry to say, but men in Western countries mostly do lower their gaze, in all Muslim countries I've been to it's the opposite.

 

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Posted by Troubles101 (Member # 4543) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bibo1978:
[qb] ... I'm very sorry to say, but men in Western countries mostly do lower their gaze, in all Muslim countries I've been to it's the opposite.

---

I'm sure this Egyptian guy I met recently in Egypt who I don't see him staring at girls even western ones will be happy with your words above..He doesn't follow the Egyptian way but he sleeps around with as many women as he gets in the way. He has much respect for women for sue yeah!

You have been giving us some interesting theories lately! First the more women are covered the worse are the men in this country, and now, Western men don't stare therefore they have more respect and don't view women as sex object! What's next?
 

---

Posted by Dalia (Member # 1230) on :
 
Hi Troubles,

I haven't given you any theories but spoken about my personal obervations. If you browse this board and read the threads about harrassment you will find that most European women who first come to Egypt are shocked about the harrassment they have to face here because they are not used to that kind of treatment from their homecountries. The same goes for other Muslim countries, unfortunately.

In regards to your comment about the Egyptian guy – I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make. Are you saying that men who behave decently on the street might not be decent at all in their private life? Of course that's not unlikely, but that doesn't make my argument invalid.

Please clarify.
 

---

Posted by kafir 4ever (Member # 9556) on :
 
And it bothers me that some people think the moral state of a society is dependent on if and how much women cover themselves, while it's obvious that there are way more important subjects to tackle! Also – as I stated before – it annoys me big time that people always focus on the second part of the aya which speaks about covering and completely ignore the first part which, in my opinion, is way more important. They even go as far as claiming that the first part might be neglected because if women covered enough, there would be no need for men to lower their gaze. That's a very faulty logic in my opinion and quite outrageous, btw, because again all the responsibility is assigned to women!

Muslim men lack self control and restrain- because
they view women as sexual objects- just like their prophet Muhammad viewed women. Read the story of Muhammad's marriage to Zainab, he became horny when he saw her unveiled. He was unable to see women as anything else than sexual objects. Men in western countries are better than the most "pious" among Muslim men, because many Kafir men can look at women in bikini without having the thought of raping them.

They even go as far as claiming that the first part might be neglected because if women covered enough, there would be no need for men to lower their gaze. That's a very faulty logic in my opinion and quite outrageous, btw, because again all the responsibility is assigned to women!

Everything about Muhammad's logic is ''faulty''. Islam doesn't teach morality. In the face of the worlds temptations it tries to remove all the temtptations so personal morality is not tested. That just doesn't work because there are too many things in this world that could be considered tempting to someone or other. at what lowest common denominator is islam satisfied?


The leader of Malaysia's Islamist opposition party, the Pan Malaysian Islamic Party, even argued that wearing perfume and lipstick could arouse men and provoke rape.

''In his speech last weekend, Mr Nik Aziz declared that wearing a headscarf was not enough to avoid arousing men.

Even a very modestly dressed woman could stir up desires in the opposite sex by applying glossy lipstick or perfume, he said.''
web page

''They even go as far as claiming that the first part might be neglected because if women covered enough, there would be no need for men to lower their gaze.''

That is because women in Islam are viewed as awrah, as something shameful. The Prophet of Allah even compared women to devil.

''Jabir reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) saw a woman, and so he came to his wife, Zainab, as she was tanning a leather and had sexual intercourse with her. He then went to his Companions and told them: THE WOMAN ADVANCES AND RETIRES IN THE SHAPE OF A DEVIL, so when one of you sees a woman, he should come to his wife, for that will repel what he feels in his heart.''
Bukhari Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301:

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3466:

AbuHuraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Woman is like a rib. When you attempt to straighten it, you would break it. And if you leave her alone you would benefit by her, and crookedness will remain in her.

How can a society (ummah) truly respect their women when their prophet was so scornful of them?

"To find a good woman among women is similar to finding a white crow among a hundred crows."

"If the body of the husband is covered with pus and his wife licks it with her tongue, she still will not be able to pay her debt to him."
 

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Posted by Dalia (Member # 1230) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by kafir 4ever:
Everything about Muhammad's logic is ''faulty''. Islam doesn't teach morality. In the face of the worlds temptations it tries to remove all the temtptations so personal morality is not tested.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia:
Hi Troubles,

I haven't given you any theories but spoken about my personal obervations. If you browse this board and read the threads about harrassment you will find that most European women who first come to Egypt are shocked about the harrassment they have to face here because they are not used to that kind of treatment from their homecountries. The same goes for other Muslim countries, unfortunately.

In regards to your comment about the Egyptian guy – I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make. Are you saying that men who behave decently on the street might not be decent at all in their private life? Of course that's not unlikely, but that doesn't make my argument invalid.

Please clarify.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troubles101:
]What I'm saying is , get those western men to live the Egyptian way awhile exposing them with same media and culture without allowing them the free sex cultural aspect of the west, then let's see, and hopefully we wont see too many suicides going around!

The guy I spoke about lived most of his life in the west and according to him, he is more western than Egyptian,and by your criteria he is someone who lower gaze and is morally better than those staring but what Isee is that he simply don't have to stare when he gets all chicks he want at the end of the night. to me I would rather live in a community where staring is all men can do than being in a free sex community and face all its consequences. Your theories are biased and have less to do with understanding the cultural aspects of the world you live in, Sorry.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troubles101:
]What I'm saying is , get those western men to live the Egyptian way awhile exposing them with same media and culture without allowing them the free sex cultural aspect of the west, then let's see, and hopefully we wont see too many suicides going around!

The guy I spoke about lived most of his life in the west and according to him, he is more western than Egyptian,and by your criteria he is someone who lower gaze and is morally better than those staring but what Isee is that he simply don't have to stare when he gets all chicks he want at the end of the night. to me I would rather live in a community where staring is all men can do than being in a free sex community and face all its consequences. Your theories are biased and have less to do with understanding the cultural aspects of the world you live in, Sorry.

---

I'm not ignorant, Troubles, I'm well aware of the aspects you're describing. But I think those facts alone are not sufficient to explain why men harrass women the way they do.

First of all – if sexual frustration would be the main reason behind harrassment, then how come married men and little boys as young as eight or nine years engage in it as well?

Secondly, I'm sure there are just as many sexually frustrated women as men in Egypt, if not more. How come women don't harrass men? Because it would socially unacceptable. And that's the point. If men were tought to respect women more, if they grew up with the perception that it's utterly unacceptable to harras a woman no amount of sexual frustration would lead to the above described behaviour.

---

Dalia, You missed my point, I wasn't trying to justify sexual harassment. I'm single myself, I don't go out and hassle women and there are many guys like me. I was only addressing your comparison between western men and Muslim men or Western countries and Muslim countries treatment of women by showing you an example that less staring or hassling (since it does exist everywhere) isn't enough element to compare between the decency and social behaviour here and there. I do know many guys who used to stare in Egypt and now they live in the west and don't stare that much but they do make different relationships and their treatment of the women they go with is very low, how many of those men exist in the west? I'm sure many as far as we hear from western women themselves and as far my experience goes. The sexual object thing is very needed to be treated in the west as much in the east, unless you can't see how women are being used as sexual tools for advertising many things out there and sadly recently we absorbed the habit alongside all bad western habits and ignored anything good about the west. Egypt was not much like that in the past and although it was always more acceptable for men but it wasn't a big problem as there was social counter acts through easy marriages, less media possession with sex and more opportunities for work, that all helped minimize the absence of moral restriction and commitment in the past. Also referring to Muslim and western is not even accurate as this has got nothing to do with Islam. You may find some Muslim countries where staring is much less than some non Muslim countries .

As for my personal opinion, I believe Islam requires a balance, each has their own responsibility towards the moral behaviour of society, we can't just put all cards on men and leave women wear half naked, we are human beings ya nas after all and same time we can't put all cards on women and expect that once women wear modest, there wont be any problems. We can't ignore the natural impulses of men and women and we can't eliminate them that's why they should be understood and treated accordingly not just through some mere ideal principles which ignore nature.
 

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Posted by Kamal211 (Member # 7854) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia:
most European women who first come to Egypt are shocked about the harrassment they have to face here because they are not used to that kind of treatment from their homecountries. The same goes for other Muslim countries, unfortunately.
[/B]

---

Hi Dalia:)
How are you doing?

Do you think this problem can be resolved by womein wearing hijaab or even niqaaab [ i,e Just follow and obey God's Commandment]???



By the way do u know Ibn Abbas?
 

---

Posted by bibo1978 (Member # 9287) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia:

quote:

---

Originally posted by bibo1978:
I only said that they follow thereselves "el hawa", we all sometimes follow it but there is a difference betweem following it while knowing that it is wrong or if you want god to follow you. i.e. you want to tailor the religion, and this is wrong in islam you can't do it.

---

You did close the discussion because stating that women who chose not to cover are either consciously "disobeying" a rule or don't have enough knowledge is a discriminating statement that leaves no room for further discussion.

I'm aware of all the arguments for covering and I respect every woman who choses to wear hijab. I couldn't care less what people wear on their head or not because I judge them according to what's inside. But I don't automatically assume that an opinion is more valid than the other just because it is supported by the majority of scholars. The mere fact that the majority follows an opinion doesn't necessarily make it right – at a certain point in history the majority agreed on the fact that the earth was flat, for example ...

My main point throughout this whole discussion was not mainly whether covering is obligatory or not but that it bothers me big time when people are trying to force their personal opinions and convictions on others. I think we should first focus on ourselves and on becoming better persons before trying to tell others what to do and how to live.
And it bothers me that some people think the moral state of a society is dependent on if and how much women cover themselves, while it's obvious that there are way more important subjects to tackle! Also – as I stated before – it annoys me big time that people always focus on the second part of the aya which speaks about covering and completely ignore the first part which, in my opinion, is way more important. They even go as far as claiming that the first part might be neglected because if women covered enough, there would be no need for men to lower their gaze. That's a very faulty logic in my opinion and quite outrageous, btw, because again all the responsibility is assigned to women!

I might also add that, according to my personal experience living in different countries, it's the other way around. If men learn that women are not sexual objects but have to be respected and that staring at women and harrassing them is something completely unacceptable it hardly matters what you wear. I'm very sorry to say, but men in Western countries mostly do lower their gaze, in all Muslim countries I've been to it's the opposite.

---

I didn't closed the discussion and I don't wanna force you or anyone to anything I am only stating my thinking if it doesn't fit for you, truely it is all yours I am only showing u some point of veiw may be you haven't seen before. if you don't wanna read it just skip it , you also can't force me not to write my opnion or do u ?
Anyhow, btw your objection on the veil "the hijab", does it comes only from logical thinking or does it have 'a bit of' I don't like it .. or it is very hard on me to do .. well if it comes from purely logic thinking .. then it is all your thoughts no one can force you unless you aare willing to listen and you think he is right.
From my point of view a well good minded people (just an opnion) should know that they are not always right and they should accept this if they know they are wrong, they should also accept others thought even if they think that the other is wrong unless it is totally unaccepted. also they should know that they can do the wrong while they even know that it is wrong, also they should know that no one is perfect, there are others just don't wanna hear they are only argueing, for sure you are not one of those.
 

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Posted by Dalia (Member # 1230) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia:
most European women who first come to Egypt are shocked about the harrassment they have to face here because they are not used to that kind of treatment from their homecountries. The same goes for other Muslim countries, unfortunately.

---

Hi Dalia:)
How are you doing?

Do you think this problem can be resolved by womein wearing hijaab or even niqaaab [ i,e Just follow and obey God's Commandment]???

---

Frankly, Kamal, I find it a bit frustating debating with you because you don't seem to completely read people's posts.

Throughout this thread you'll find several opinions on the question you just asked:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Automatic For The People

quote:

---

do you think this "behaviour" of men will

a)increase
or

b)decrease,

if more women covered their hair?

---

It won't change.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia
That's a very faulty logic in my opinion and quite outrageous, btw, because again all the responsibility is assigned to women!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troubles101
I believe Islam requires a balance, each has their own responsibility towards the moral behaviour of society, we can't just put all cards on men and leave women wear half naked, we are human beings ya nas after all and same time we can't put all cards on women and expect that once women wear modest, there wont be any problems.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troubles101:
Dalia, You missed my point, I wasn't trying to justify sexual harassment. I'm single myself, I don't go out and hassle women and there are many guys like me.

---

Thanks for clarifying. And, no, I didn't think you're going out harassing women.

quote:

---

The sexual object thing is very needed to be treated in the west as much in the east, unless you can't see how women are being used as sexual tools for advertising many things out there

---

quote:

---

You may find some Muslim countries where staring is much less than some non Muslim countries .

---

quote:

---

As for my personal opinion, I believe Islam requires a balance, each has their own responsibility towards the moral behaviour of society, we can't just put all cards on men and leave women wear half naked, we are human beings ya nas after all and same time we can't put all cards on women and expect that once women wear modest, there wont be any problems. We can't ignore the natural impulses of men and women and we can't eliminate them that's why they should be understood and treated accordingly not just through some mere ideal principles which ignore nature.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:
"And say to the female believers to cast down their be holdings, and preserve their private parts, and not display their adornment except such as is outward, and let them fix (Literally: strike) closely their veils over their bosoms, and not display their adornment except to their husbands, or…" (TMQ, 24:31).

---

bos·om ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bzm, bzm)
n.

The chest of a human: He held the sleepy child to his bosom. A woman's breast or breasts.
___________

How or where does it say a woman should cover her head?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:


oh you never told me what "Kalashnikow " means [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pendarth:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia:
Here's an interesting link on this subject ...

http://www.free-minds.org/

---

Just browsing the "Free-Minds" site - I am hit by the impression that it is yet another site re-inventing Islam, remoulding, and reshaping it "to suit the present day environment."

Either we accept Islam as the final message and the prophet s.a.w. as the final messenger and take is a deen (way of life) which Allah s.w.t. perfected and completed (as is stated in the Quraan) - or discard it (or parts thereof), and try to make our own religion based our own understandings of what is applicable and pertinent in the modern day and go down the road of all the other "religions" that are around today.

---

just seen this thread and the above quote pendarth, the site you yourself quoted as an islamic site (submission.org) is not an islamic site, if you look into it properly rashad khalifa has his own Quran with the last 2 verses missing from sura 9. (this had to be done to come to the conclusion there was a number 19 miracle in Quran) he says the 2 verses should not be there!!!

I am in a little dispute with someone as to whether khalifa was indeed a muslim! I am still convinced he was a copt, but a great mathematician

He also thought HE was the messenger of the covenant.
 

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Posted by Snoozin (Member # 6244) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Melati:
I worked in an Islamic school and I found that the men were most polite and behaved normally, it was the women who were much more judgemental and would comment about tight clothes etc.

---

That is the norm here, too. It is said that women dress in a particular way not to impress men around them, but other women!
 

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Posted by Kamal211 (Member # 7854) on :
 

A THIRD OF Britons believe women who act flirtatiously are partly to blame if they get raped, a study has revealed.....

A similar proportion think those who wear revealing clothes or get drunk have only themselves to blame, an Amnesty International study found.


[source: http://www.metro.co.uk/metro/standard/article.html?in_article_id=32012&in_page_id=1 ]

one third....thats like approx. 30 million people who just woke up.....
When muslim knew how to make a civilsed society 1500 years


And they wanna make hijaab illegal

These "man-made" will never be perfect...
I wouldnt be suprise in the next century France make it illegal NOT to hear hijaab....


I just want to make it clear that:

God's LAw is most perfect, and always will be till the end/and beyond of time...

You/we may debate as much as we like, but the fact will remain that
God commanded the hijaab...
moderate dressing for man and woman...
and both sexes to lower the gazes....

In this ayah it mentions sumthing lile
you will not be held accountable for another's soul .

so where men/women dont want to follow the commandment of God, it's upto them
they may debate it, or manipulate it....but the truth still exist, which they will be accountable for....
Infact whoever doubts the obligation of the hijaab, reading this thread will surely put any doubts out of their head

Cos we have discussed the "other side" of not wearing hijaab.....and there are no sound evidence for it, excepts one's opinion


starjade:

quote:

---

I mean come on, a 6 year old child should not have to cover her "adornments".

---

Yea, to keep pervs like you getting cheap thrills
 

---

Posted by Dalia (Member # 1230) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:

A THIRD OF Britons believe women who act flirtatiously are partly to blame if they get raped, a study has revealed.....

A similar proportion think those who wear revealing clothes or get drunk have only themselves to blame, an Amnesty International study found.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia:

quote:

---

The sexual object thing is very needed to be treated in the west as much in the east, unless you can't see how women are being used as sexual tools for advertising many things out there

---

I agree. I've been bothered by that for most of my life.
Besides, I wasn't suggesting that all Western men are morally superior to all Middle Eastern men, but at least they have learned that it's not acceptable to openly stare at and comment on women.

---

quote:

---

I'd be curious as to which ones these are.

---

quote:

---

I completely agree. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Kamal211:
[qb] Yes, Kamal, and in some Muslim countries women who get raped are actually killed by their families because ...]

---

quote:

---

go away and learn about the differnce between Islamic principles, and a nation's culuture...
then come back and reply...

Thanks:)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kamal211:
go away and learn about the differnce between Islamic principles, and a nation's culuture...
then come back and reply...

Thanks:)

---

I know the difference between Islamic principles and a nation's culture very well, so do you mind clarifying what your point is? We were arguing about reality in different countries, not religious principles.
Thanks.
 

---

Posted by kafir 4ever (Member # 9556) on :
 
Originally posted by Kamal211:

I just want to make it clear that:

God's LAw is most perfect, and always will be till the end/and beyond of time...

Wake up!

why is it so difficult to see that Islam is not from God? Don’t you see the result? What did you get out of Islam so far? Nothing but misery, savagery, wars, poverty, mass killings, stupidity and backwardness! How can this be from God? Use your brain for the sake of heavens! Muhammad lied. He lied, he enriched himself, he looted and murdered innocent people. And you follow this criminal and believe in his lies about 72 virgins and his hell? How much stupidity is enough?

Here are some of Muhammad's pearls of wisdom:

''In the seventh heaven where the souls of the just resided was an angel larger than the entire world, with 70,000 heads; each head had 70,000 mouths, each mouth had 70,000 tongues and each tongue spoke in 70,000 different idioms singing endlessly the praises of the Most High''. web page

There are seven heavens. (This is ludicrous)

In the seventh heaven there is an angle “larger than the entire world” (Now isn’t this something? The contained is larger than the container. Only Muhammad could have come with this absurdity and only Muslims can believe in this idiocy.)

This creature has 70,000 heads; each head has 70,000 faces (It has 4,900,000,000 faces)

Each face has 70,000 mouths (It has 343,000,000,000,000 mouths)

Each mouth has 70,000 tongues (It has 24,010,000,000,000,000,000 tongues)

Each tongue speaks 70,000 idioms (He speaks 1,680,700,000,000,000,000,000,000 different idioms. i.e. 1.68 trillion trillion idioms)

Isn't that stupid?

All this to do what? To praise Allah!

Why would Allah need to create an angel so monstrous that part of his body falls out of the world that he created, just doing nothing but praising him endlessly in that many languages? (For those who know CAD it would be a good idea to draw a picture of this angel. I don't know even if it is possible) Methinks Allah is insecure and has a severe complex of inferiority to need this much praise. This is the most acute form of narcissistic pathology that I have heard of. Isn’t this enough to see that this man was nuts and those who believe in him are fools?

Allah is an alter ego of Muhammad. Muhammad's name was Kotham a.k.a Halabi. He changed his name to Muhammad (the praiseworthy) at the age of 53 when he migrated to Medina because he was desperate to be praised. His Allah also has his psychological pathology because it is forged at his image. When you worship Allah you are actually worshipping Muhammad. When he worshiped Allah, he also worshipped himself. He could not tell people worship me. So he invented this imaginary deity and asked the stupid people who followed him to worship Allah and obey his messenger. Allah was his own fabrication. To see how stupid were the people who followed Muhammad it is enough to read the above story. Only very stupid people can believe in such absurdity.

There must be a limit to stupidity. At one point one must stop and say, 'beyond this point I won’t go. i am willing to be fooled but not to this extent. This is getting too crazy.' But obviously there is no limit to Muslims’ stupidity. It is a bottomless pit. They are so damn fools that they are ready to believe in anything that MuHamMad said.

Here is another pearl of MuhamMad's wisdom that should be written in gold:

''The Prophet said, 'The (people of) Bani Israel used to take bath naked (all together) looking at each other. The Prophet Moses used to take a bath alone. They said, 'By Allah! Nothing prevents Moses from taking a bath with us except that he has a scrotal hernia.' So once Moses went out to take a bath and put his clothes over a stone and then that stone ran away with his clothes. Moses followed that stone saying, "My clothes, O stone! My clothes, O stone! till the people of Bani Israel saw him and said, 'By Allah, Moses has got no defect in his body. Moses took his clothes and began to beat the stone." Abu Huraira added, "By Allah! There are still six or seven marks present on the stone from that excessive beating." Bukhari 1:5:277

Ahh! How could Moses be so cruel to a stone? The poor boulder was just being playful. It meant no harm.

-Here is another good one:

''Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews Muslim 41:69

Now don't think the Quran is any better. The stories in that book are just as stupid as those of ahadith. Islam is a religion made by a mad man for stupid people.

The difference between humans and animals is that humans are capable of rational thoughts; animals are not. If Muslims are not capable of rational thought what that makes them? You are willing to behead, to burn, to bomb, to riot, and to even use atomic bomb and kill millions but are not willing to think? Isn't this the biggest tragedy? Some of the terrorists had their dick wrapped in aluminum foil so it can be preserved intact in the blast, obviously because they thought they will have to put it in use in the other word. Now how much stupid one can become?
 

---

Posted by Pendarth (Member # 8592) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ayisha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pendarth:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dalia:
Here's an interesting link on this subject ...

http://www.free-minds.org/

---

Just browsing the "Free-Minds" site - I am hit by the impression that it is yet another site re-inventing Islam, remoulding, and reshaping it "to suit the present day environment."

• also in another post: For a defence on covering of the head not being necessary the basic outline is mentioned here:
  http://www.submission.org/teenagers/dress-teens.html
  For the classical view of how the Quraan has ordered women to cover their head see:
  http://www.muhajabah.com/sunna-yes.htm

Either we accept Islam as the final message and the prophet s.a.w. as the final messenger and take is a deen (way of life) which Allah s.w.t. perfected and completed (as is stated in the Quraan) - or discard it (or parts thereof), and try to make our own religion based our own understandings of what is applicable and pertinent in the modern day and go down the road of all the other "religions" that are around today.

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just seen this thread and the above quote pendarth, the site you yourself quoted as an islamic site (submission.org) is not an islamic site, if you look into it properly rashad khalifa has his own Quran with the last 2 verses missing from sura 9. (this had to be done to come to the conclusion there was a number 19 miracle in Quran) he says the 2 verses should not be there!!!

I am in a little dispute with someone as to whether khalifa was indeed a muslim! I am still convinced he was a copt, but a great mathematician

He also thought HE was the messenger of the covenant.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pendarth:
To Dalia and others who find certain aspects of the classical interpretation according to the four madhahib of Islam difficult to reconcile please see the post I have made under the Basics of Islam

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Posted by Snapdragon (Member # 9036) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kamal211:
[b]
[

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Yea, to keep pervs like you getting cheap thrills

quote:

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Originally posted by kafir 4ever:
Originally posted by Kamal211:

Some of the terrorists had their dick wrapped in aluminum foil so it can be preserved intact in the blast, obviously because they thought they will have to put it in use in the other word. Now how much stupid one can become?

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quote:

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You are so quick to agree that a 6 year old girl needs to cover her hair because if you see her without it, you might be afraid you will get a hard on and then have dreams about molesting her. You disgusting middle eastern piece of ****. Have respect for yourself!

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and you are so quick to think that i be afraid that get hard...blah blah blah...
where u get all this from...

only a perv comes up with such stuff

quote:

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Some of the terrorists had their dick wrapped in aluminum foil so it can be preserved intact in the blast, obviously because they thought they will have to put it in use in the other word. Now how much stupid one can become?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LOL - Pervs before and after death!! LOL I think I will laugh about this the rest of the night. That is really really funny.

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I hope that was posted by kafir [ i cant be bothered to read all his long posts...], cos you making it seem it was said by me..



thats some humour you get there
i guess it something all perv find funny....


I have no idea why i'm even wasting a post to reply to a useless-perv...

if you do see me replying to you, then know that you have accomplished a great achievement by saying sumthing useful - if not keep on practising

Well enjoy the rest of your night
 

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Posted by bibo1978 (Member # 9287) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by kafir 4ever:
Originally posted by Kamal211:

I just want to make it clear that:

God's LAw is most perfect, and always will be till the end/and beyond of time...

Wake up!

why is it so difficult to see that Islam is not from God? Don’t you see the result? What did you get out of Islam so far? Nothing but misery, savagery, wars, poverty, mass killings, stupidity and backwardness! How can this be from God? Use your brain for the sake of heavens! Muhammad lied. He lied, he enriched himself, he looted and murdered innocent people. And you follow this criminal and believe in his lies about 72 virgins and his hell? How much stupidity is enough?

Here are some of Muhammad's pearls of wisdom:

''In the seventh heaven where the souls of the just resided was an angel larger than the entire world, with 70,000 heads; each head had 70,000 mouths, each mouth had 70,000 tongues and each tongue spoke in 70,000 different idioms singing endlessly the praises of the Most High''. web page

There are seven heavens. (This is ludicrous)

In the seventh heaven there is an angle “larger than the entire world” (Now isn’t this something? The contained is larger than the container. Only Muhammad could have come with this absurdity and only Muslims can believe in this idiocy.)

This creature has 70,000 heads; each head has 70,000 faces (It has 4,900,000,000 faces)

Each face has 70,000 mouths (It has 343,000,000,000,000 mouths)

Each mouth has 70,000 tongues (It has 24,010,000,000,000,000,000 tongues)

Each tongue speaks 70,000 idioms (He speaks 1,680,700,000,000,000,000,000,000 different idioms. i.e. 1.68 trillion trillion idioms)

Isn't that stupid?

All this to do what? To praise Allah!

Why would Allah need to create an angel so monstrous that part of his body falls out of the world that he created, just doing nothing but praising him endlessly in that many languages? (For those who know CAD it would be a good idea to draw a picture of this angel. I don't know even if it is possible) Methinks Allah is insecure and has a severe complex of inferiority to need this much praise. This is the most acute form of narcissistic pathology that I have heard of. Isn’t this enough to see that this man was nuts and those who believe in him are fools?

Allah is an alter ego of Muhammad. Muhammad's name was Kotham a.k.a Halabi. He changed his name to Muhammad (the praiseworthy) at the age of 53 when he migrated to Medina because he was desperate to be praised. His Allah also has his psychological pathology because it is forged at his image. When you worship Allah you are actually worshipping Muhammad. When he worshiped Allah, he also worshipped himself. He could not tell people worship me. So he invented this imaginary deity and asked the stupid people who followed him to worship Allah and obey his messenger. Allah was his own fabrication. To see how stupid were the people who followed Muhammad it is enough to read the above story. Only very stupid people can believe in such absurdity.

There must be a limit to stupidity. At one point one must stop and say, 'beyond this point I won’t go. i am willing to be fooled but not to this extent. This is getting too crazy.' But obviously there is no limit to Muslims’ stupidity. It is a bottomless pit. They are so damn fools that they are ready to believe in anything that MuHamMad said.

Here is another pearl of MuhamMad's wisdom that should be written in gold:

''The Prophet said, 'The (people of) Bani Israel used to take bath naked (all together) looking at each other. The Prophet Moses used to take a bath alone. They said, 'By Allah! Nothing prevents Moses from taking a bath with us except that he has a scrotal hernia.' So once Moses went out to take a bath and put his clothes over a stone and then that stone ran away with his clothes. Moses followed that stone saying, "My clothes, O stone! My clothes, O stone! till the people of Bani Israel saw him and said, 'By Allah, Moses has got no defect in his body. Moses took his clothes and began to beat the stone." Abu Huraira added, "By Allah! There are still six or seven marks present on the stone from that excessive beating." Bukhari 1:5:277

Ahh! How could Moses be so cruel to a stone? The poor boulder was just being playful. It meant no harm.

-Here is another good one:

''Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews Muslim 41:69

Now don't think the Quran is any better. The stories in that book are just as stupid as those of ahadith. Islam is a religion made by a mad man for stupid people.

The difference between humans and animals is that humans are capable of rational thoughts; animals are not. If Muslims are not capable of rational thought what that makes them? You are willing to behead, to burn, to bomb, to riot, and to even use atomic bomb and kill millions but are not willing to think? Isn't this the biggest tragedy? Some of the terrorists had their dick wrapped in aluminum foil so it can be preserved intact in the blast, obviously because they thought they will have to put it in use in the other word. Now how much stupid one can become?

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quote:

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Originally posted by bibo1978:
Why do u think god has made all this life, the earth, the moon, the sun, the galaxies, the physics, the stars, the blackholes, animals and men ... Can you answer this, you may think it is for fun well it is not .. all of this just to praise God, God says : " I have not made people and jins rather than that to worship me".

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quote:

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Originally posted by Humanized:
From The Devil's Dictionary:

After his Ignoble Disgrace, Satan was being expelled from Heaven.
As he passed through the Gates, he paused a moment in thought,
and turned to God and said, "A new creature called Man, I hear,
is soon to be created."
"This is true," He replied.
"He will need laws," said the Demon slyly.
"What! You, his appointed Enemy for all Time!
You ask for the right to make his laws?"
"Oh, no!" Satan replied, "I ask only that
he be allowed to make his own."
It was so granted.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dalia:

quote:

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Originally posted by Pendarth:
To Dalia and others who find certain aspects of the classical interpretation according to the four madhahib of Islam difficult to reconcile please see the post I have made under the Basics of Islam

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quote:

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Originally posted by kafir 4ever:

quote:

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Originally posted by bibo1978:
Why do u think god has made all this life, the earth, the moon, the sun, the galaxies, the physics, the stars, the blackholes, animals and men ... Can you answer this, you may think it is for fun well it is not .. all of this just to praise God, God says : " I have not made people and jins rather than that to worship me".

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It does not make sense for a perfect God to create such vast universe in order to put in a tiniest of its planets a semi intelligent primate just to know him and to worship him. This idea becomes even less plausible especially when we see that he never presented himself to his creatures and plays hide and seek. If knowing him and worshipping him was so important to him as his messengers want to make us believe, and that this was the main purpose of the creation, then it is logical to expect that he would take this matter a little bit more seriously. Hiding behind the clouds of secrecy and communicating to his creatures through another person of dubious intention is a lame way of making himself known and worshipped.
No wonder he has failed so miserably to make his wish known by everyone. There are so many religions and so many sects. All those who follow these religions are sincere. But certainly not all those ways are from God. At most only one of these ways are the right way that he has prescribed for his people. But when you see that only a tiniest fraction of people follow any one of these myriads of religions and sects you know that God has failed to guide people clearly enough so they do not go astray.

It is a pity that God create such a vast universe and then only in a very tiny planet called Earth, he implants the humans, and of these humans only a tiniest fraction knows him and worships him. The rest who fail, do so not out of contempt but because of the amount of the confusion that there is in the religions. If the purpose of the creation of this universe was to create intelligent beings so that they may know God and worship him, I can say for certainly that God has failed in his purpose. Something is wrong with the design of this universe, which is certainly his own fault.

This universe is about 15 billion years old. Humans have come to the scene very recently but Adam who was the first man and prophet according to Quran is only 6000 years old. What was god doing for these billions of years when there was no one to know him and to worship him? Must have been very lonely.

One may question why God NEEDS to be known and worshiped anyway? Any need is a sign of a defect. This characteristic is more befitting of a narcissist dictator who craves for recognition and adulation, who orders his executioners to punish anyone who dares not to bow in front of him. It is not befitting of an almighty God.
If God was so desperate to be known and worshiped, why he did not make himself more manifest? Does it make sense for a supper wise god to cover himself behind the clouds of secrecy, them send an illiterate man to call humanity towards him, failing to arm him with proper miracles for the benefit of those to whom he directly spoke and any rational arguments for the benefit of those who have to read his writings hundreds of years later?

Muhammad, as is demonstrated in many verses of Quran, always refused to perform miracles. In fact one would expect that a person who knows everything and has seen the next world, as he claimed, would at least be able to read and understand what is written in his own language. Yet Muhammad remained illiterate all his life and he bragged about it claiming it as the proof that his knowledge is of divine origin and not leaned from the books written by men. This is a clear indication that he performed no miracle at all. He rouse as an illiterate man, ignorant of the world around him and died illiterate just as ignorant as before he made his claim. There is no proof for us to believe that he was a messenger of God on the basis of what is left of him in writing. The only book that he left, and boasted to be a “miracle” is full of errors. Quran is a book, which is scientifically, historically, logically, and grammatically wrong. It is amazing that despite all the evidence, Muslims still rehash the nonsense claim of Quran’s miraculous nature. If there is any miracle is in the mind of people who are so eager to fool themselves.

Another question is, if the only propose of creation is to know God, why God’s message is not logical? Why it goes against human reason? Why should he give us a brain and expect us to forgo its use when it comes to such an important thing, as knowing him? Isn't this what his messengers told us to be the very raison d'etre of our creation?
Okey, I hear you say, let us give you the benefit of the doubt and let us assume you are right and the purpose of the creation is not to know God and to worship Him. So can you please tell us what you think it is?
In response I am afraid, as I said before; it is easier to know what the truth is not than what it is. We don’t know why the universe has come to be, and we may never know. Yet because we are humans, we like to find out; and when we cannot find out, we like to speculate. Primitive people thought that since everything has a maker, this universe must be the handiwork of a deity too. That is an speculation and cannot be proven logically. What I will tell you here is also my speculation. It may not be right, or at best it may be partially right. You may have a better understanding. But since neither you nor me can prove what we say, you may also be as much wrong as I am.

I believe that this universe is the natural manifestation of a higher reality. That reality is underlying the creation. Love is one of the aspects of that Principle. There may not be a purpose to the creation at all. It is there. Things in universe don’t happen for a purpose. What is the purpose of rain falling on the ocean? What is the purpose of billions of pollens carried by the wind that do not fall to fertilize the female flower? What is the purpose of the planets that are uninhabited, ie. do not support life? What is the purpose of the moon? Why some planets have more moons and some none? As you see things happen apparently without a reason. If God was the designer and the creator of this universe, then he is a sloppy creator. If a chimp sit behind a typewriter pushing the keys his rate of success in writing words that make sense are better than God’s rate of success in creating life. Billions of sperms go to waste for one of them to fertilize an egg. Thousands of small turtles die or are eaten by predators for one of them make it into adulthood. Scientists believe that less than one in a million of the planets in our galaxy and other galaxies may be able to support life. Look at our own solar system; out of the nine planets only one is habitable. This is a poor performance by an almighty god. If the ultimate purpose of creation was to have a two-legged creature to prostrate in front of him and satiate his self-aggrandizing ego, why he failed to populate other planets?

There are many indications that point to the fact that the evolution is not teleological. There is no one sitting up there deciding on everything. But everything happen governed by a principle. There is order in the universe. This Order, this Cosmic Law, is undeniable. We see the order, but we cannot understand the nature of it. It is the Principle underlying the creation. Love is a manifestation of this Principle. May be all that there is, is the natural expression of love. May be that is how the universe has come to be. But who knows?

I believe this world, i.e. the physical world that you and I see and live in it, is the womb for our soul. Just as the fetus grows in the womb of it’s mother acquiring a physical body that may not be even useful to him while still in the womb, but it would be disastrous if he is born without a well developed organ or limb, so is our soul acquiring a spiritual body that will serve us when we depart from this world and are born into the next. Love may be the purpose of life. We have to grow in love. Express our love to all members of human family, to all animals and plants and to all living beings. May be this is the meaning and the purpose of life. To help someone in distress, to alleviate someone’s burden, to sooth someone’s pain and to put a smile in someone’s face. I cannot see any purpose loftier in life, than loving my fellow human beings. Can you?

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Well this means that god love creation and we are left for nothin, this reminds me of the verse [75.36] Does man think that he is to be left to wander without an aim?
Anyhow it is not you whom can decide why god made it niether would I, but we can wonder.
This universe comes from nothin and this can be proven scientifically, the whole universe was made from a space time singulrity according to the big bang theory, actually the first micro seconds of the universe where the one that made it how it is, time afterwards is systematic of the evolution of the new forces (mainly the garvititional force that masters universe now, other forces like weak interaction and strong interaction forces doesn't master the universe no more). This doesn't mean it is nothin, it is only god that can make nothing a thing
Anyhow my point is that time is not relevent, you brought with your idea that the universe is 15 billion years old, well you know there are some kind of flies that never lives for more than 2 days, there are elements (rather than liptons) that half there life time is less than 10^-23 second, our lives is only a few years (I belive no one on earth now think he might live more than 200 yrs).
Anyhow time is related to us, for example before you come to earth would you ever consider time. so there is no point of bringing time as your justification of that god is just made us as his game. If we are his game then he would never made us of control on ourselves choices, you can choose many things in your life can't you.
The difference between you and me is that I think and I get this from things around me, for every cause there is a reason, and our existance is a cause and there is a reason for that, this reason is to glorify and worshipping.
1- Glorification includes wondering about his creation and includes obeying his rules, it is for our best, god didn't set the rules except when we abused our choices, for example there was no rule to forbid killing, adultry, .. etc from god, there where some that comes from human's pure nature, yet people started abusing there freedom to choose that at some point god started to interfere, through messengers and this is for the human grace.
2- Worshipping, worshipping is like believeing in him and for us worshipping is different, we are free to decide wether, and we didn't put the rules so because god made us a free willing it is rational that we don't see 'em just to decide wether we worship'em or not.
You stated that nothin happens for a pupose, like water falls on the see, well if it doesn't seem to have a purpose for you this doesn't mean that it has no purpose, truely you and I don't know everything, for example there might be some poeple in the see that seeks a pure water, some creatures that only lives for the rain time, "do you know that there is some kind of fish that lives in the desert with no sea they only live for two weeks through which they live mate and gave birth", not knowing but wondering and looking is what we are here to, we just have to look gaze wonder and think, for me those things are just more proof for god existance. God didn't want us to reach'em easily so there are some kind of vake illusions "including other persons we are to each other an illusion" yet there might be a big wisedom in it, for example it is the beautiful flower pollen that makes us witness the spring season, it is someones misery "he don't see god" that makes us think of our happeness.
You have stated that million of sperm is lost before someone enters .. etc. this doesn't mean imperfection it merely means that he is in control, we have choices "yes" but he is in control, and we don't judge'em, we are not gods we are only here to study and learn for god's sake the rules can be different "he chooses the rules", no one can claim else.

I agree that love is the purpose of life, but if you love choose whom you love, choose someone never dies so s/he won't left you, choose someone loves you back so s/he won't break your heart, choose someone who will appreciate your love, choose someone whom always with you anywhere so you won't ever mess'em. It is god that had said in hadeeth:" Niether does my heavens nor earth can contaiminate me it is my servants heart that can"! I read this and I am not sure how far this hadeeth is valid.
U said Quran is grammer faulty, in whom's grammer, I would like to introduce to you the langauge as it in computer science there are many langauges each langauge has its enumeration, and characteristics for example some langauge are object oriented others are not "they all can deal with the same processor usaually" however there is no one-one mapping between them.
you said god should take this life seriously well he is it is you that takes it unseriously, man if we are here and tomorrow we will die and only time and physics that control us then this means we have no soul we come from nothin and we are going to nothin and will be nothin and living in nothin, so why bothering yourself introducing the idea to others (nothins) "hey people you are nothin and going to be nothin" if truely you believe then why should this matter to you, or it is the devil that is behind the idea.
if you are true why should be there any arguement if it is so why should be there love if it is so why should we care for each other .. sorry man I can't agree
Do you see any wisedom ?! please think kafir you still have time Please read my post
 

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Posted by Ki$$7eaven (Member # 7854) on :
 
dalia, this site comes in dutch, for your information
and english...


it is a platform for women to express thier view,..maybe u wud be interested in expresin urs
 

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Posted by Dalia (Member # 1230) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ki$$7eaven:
dalia, this site comes in dutch, for your information
and english...


it is a platform for women to express thier view,..maybe u wud be interested in expresin urs

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Don't know where you're getting the idea from that I speak Dutch ...


And why do you think I would be interested in a site devoted to promoting headscarfes?

 

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Posted by Ki$$7eaven (Member # 7854) on :
 
I thought most european speak most other european lang

you were , maybe, the only woman, replying to this topic about hijaab...seemed to be you had quite an interest....
if you would like, you can discuss your agenda on hijaab further there....
but maybe not...

it was just a thought.
 

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Posted by Dalia (Member # 1230) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ki$$7eaven:
I thought most european speak most other european lang

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Not at all.

Some nations' citizens are very good with languages, others are well-known for refusing to speak anything but their native language. Germans are among the latter although we have to learn one to three languages depending on the kind of highschool. The languages most commonly taught in schools are Latin, English and French, followed by Spanish and Italian.

Dutch people and people from Scandinavian countries usually speak excellent English (and often German). French, Italian and Spanish people rather not.

I'm generalizing here, of course ...
 

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Posted by TheWesternDebt2Islam aka Ki$$ aka K (Member # 7854) on :
 
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/womens/niqaab.htm
 

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Posted by Dalia (Member # 1230) on :
 
This site is horrible!!!
 

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