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By Senator John McCain (former prisoner of war in Vietnam)
An Iraqi detainee screams "Allah" while tied down in a "humane restraint chair" at the maximum security section of th e Abu Ghraib Prison on Oct. 28, 2005. U.S. Army military police said that he had been given two hours in the chair as punishment. The suspected insurgent, a juvenile, had earlier been moved to the maximum-security section of the prison for 30 days for attacking a guard in another section of the facility.
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That's what the military allowed NEWSWEEK to take a picture of. Imagine what they don't let a news magazine see.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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Susan, Normally unacceptable torture would include anything that does permanent damage. In other words, you cannot pull out someones fingernails with a pair of pliers. Anything else is one the table. You guys are just trying to bash the administration with anything you can find. You don't really care all that much if its a valid point or not.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: You guys are just trying to bash the administration with anything you can find. You don't really care all that much if its a valid point or not.
There's none so blind as those who will not see!!!! You really are the most blinkered being I have ever had the misfortune to come across, and what makes it even worse is that you actually claim to be "educated"! Your "administration" is so blinded these days by their own arrogance that they have forgotten what the truth, decency, and honesty means!!!! And you just fall for all their lies hook line and sinker, without putting your brain in gear!
I'd like to see you change places with that guy and then tell me if that was acceptable torture or not!
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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newcomer, If we did what I favored you would think Geroge Bush and Hillary Clinton were Sunday school teachers. Depending on the circumstances I might have had the guy in the picture shot off the fantail of an American warship. I don't fall for lies, I know what they are doing and I approve of it.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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lets say Susie that you are the CIA agent in charge. You have reliable reason to believe that this guy has information about a terrorist attack that could , probably would , bring down an American Airliner. Do you use tourture or let the people in the plane die?
My point is, its not always that simple. Its not just black and white.
If in 1935 you had a gun in hand and were alone with Hitler would you have shot him? Think about it.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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Jimmy Carter: Bush not in line with American Values Tess Koppelman Fox 4 News
"In the last 5 years there's been a dramatic and disturbing and radical change in the values of this country," Carter said. For example, he says peace is an American value, not pre-emptive war. He says another American value is human rights. For decades the US has supported the Geneva convention saying we won't torture prisoners, but he says now "our senators are voting to keep torture. It's inconceivable this would happen in the United States of America."
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Hummm, That is creative.
lets say Susie that you are the CIA agent in charge. You have reliable reason to believe that this guy has information about a terrorist attack that could , probably would , bring down an American Airliner. Do you use tourture or let the people in the plane die?
My point is, its not always that simple. Its not just black and white.
If in 1935 you had a gun in hand and were alone with Hitler would you have shot him? Think about it.
No, it's not always black and white. But I've never really read anything that says torture is particularly effective. I'd prefer mind games myself, getting the guy to believe all his buddies sold him out. It works well with local police here -- could work there. And even bribes with cold hard cash and/or gold.
Plus, you have a bunch of grunts over there who *like* causing other people pain. So if you don't have strict policies in place *against* torture, and strict supervision, you are going to end up with Abu Grahaib redux.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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Well, Abu Graib should have never been made public. Crap like that hurts the United states and the liberals who used it for political purposes should be placed naked in a cage with a very horny gorilla. We are dealing with people who blow up weddings and kill people at random. Hell, they even kill people aho agree with them. Why some of you think we can deal with them like rational human beings is beyond me. I'll tell you this, let me have control of them and I promise you we would get the information we need. I have no sympathy for this pond scum. They blew up a cafe in Baghdad the other day and killed a bunch of cops and restaurant workers whose biggest crime was trying to support their families.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Well, Abu Graib should have never been made public. Crap like that hurts the United states and the liberals who used it for political purposes should be placed naked in a cage with a very horny gorilla. We are dealing with people who blow up weddings and kill people at random. Hell, they even kill people aho agree with them. Why some of you think we can deal with them like rational human beings is beyond me. I'll tell you this, let me have control of them and I promise you we would get the information we need. I have no sympathy for this pond scum. They blew up a cafe in Baghdad the other day and killed a bunch of cops and restaurant workers whose biggest crime was trying to support their families.
I know. I hate *them* as much as you do, and by them I mean pointless terrorists. BUT, it still comes down to the fact you have no proof when you round up a bunch of *suspects,* that any particular person is guilty of a crime. I would guess that most of the people we have in jail over there are either innocent or small time players who are more interested in making a dime to feed their family. Not necessarily anyone linked with or knowledgable of al Zarqawi's folks.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: I know. I hate *them* as much as you do, and by them I mean pointless terrorists. BUT, it still comes down to the fact you have no proof when you round up a bunch of *suspects,* that any particular person is guilty of a crime. I would guess that most of the people we have in jail over there are either innocent or small time players who are more interested in making a dime to feed their family. Not necessarily anyone linked with or knowledgable of al Zarqawi's folks.
Horemheb also agrees with locking up suspects ad infinitum, as long as they are not. 1. American, British or Australian Citizens. 2. Himself, he being an American Citizen.
I hope he doesn't travel overseas and gets kidnapped by the family of one of those victims in prison without a trial. And I also hope he doesn't appeal to the right of trial or to be treated humanely by his captors.
Posts: 134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Big Mix, Keeping people for the duration of the war has been the policy of most nations in most wars. The problem with this war is that it is unlike any we have ever had. In past wars you had a clearly defined, uniformed enemy. I would not agree with torture that leaves lasting damage. If the guy is that bad then go ahead and shoot him. There is a middle ground on this policy.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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>Why are there "terrorist" in the first place? >Why is US attacking Iraq, Afghanistain, soon-to-be, iran, syria, etc....???
>Why do these "terrorist" or goverment have "WMD"? >Why is Bin laden "terrorising" the west, and giving threats? what is his cause? Does he and the like of him, want oil ??
Keep asking your self why, why, why, then you will find the cuase of the problem, when you eradicate the root, the problem is solved InshaAllah
-------------------- -- here... [url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0955020700/qid%3D1133898517/026-7853042-0414807= Recommended...![/url] Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
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You covered a lot of ground there kamal. The problem is radical Jihadst Islam and world terror. The problem is rouge outlaw states like Iran and Syria who want to conduct terrorist activity around the world. We have oil, all we can use over here in the western hemisphere. We will not , however, all the oil wealth of the middle east to be used by people who wish us ill.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote: The problem is radical Jihadst Islam and world terror....Iran and Syria who want to conduct terrorist activity around the world
What are their cause, and why are they doing this? Why would countries wanna do that when they know US will come and kill their people?
Think of Bin laden and his cause..... he is more frank than others, but all these "terrorist" or we might of well just say mulims... have a reason or a cause to be "terrorizing"?
but why??
-------------------- -- here... [url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0955020700/qid%3D1133898517/026-7853042-0414807= Recommended...![/url] Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
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because they feel their way of like is threatened by modernity, by western values. Truth is, I agree , it is. The United States simply represents the most obvious aspect of the global economy , or what Bush I called 'the new world order.' the Islamic nations are going to be forced to secularize, they have no choice. that is the current thrust of a historical process that has been going on since 1216 on the fields of Runnymeade in England. They use terror because they lack the military assets to win a regular war and they very fact that they lack those assets shows that they have no chance to win. Susan and Noor will tell you that if nothing else, right or wrong, I do not mince words. They will have to change or cease to exist. Simply put, we have no choice but to kill them until they stop.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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The Americans and the west are located on the other side of the Atlantic....north of the med sea...and the rest of Europe...
so how are Muslims threatened by this "modernity"....when the Muslim are mainly located central-north Africa, and central-west Asia....
If this is the "cause" of "terrorism"... that the Muslim are "threatened by modernity".....why is the West...trying to "modernize" the Muslim/east...
Quite simply, if the West stops "moderniszing" the east, terrorism will stop ....??? Why don’t you write to Mr Bush and tell him to keep his "modernisation" to himself.....and to his countrymen and not to poke his business elsewhere?
So, it seems that the West brought the "terrorism" to themselves....
That is one way to look at it.... But I don’t feel the reason of "modernizing" is too sufficient.... There is another reason for this "terrorism", the reason may not be so obvious to you, because the media in particular the West, is in the money-making business, not the truth-telling business, unfortunately
So think a lil harder, and you might just hit the jackpot Posts: 2457 | From: U | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: because they feel their way of like is threatened by modernity, by western values.
No the truth is that Western 'values' are threatened by the inability for some soceities to adapt and accept capitolism so easily.
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: They use terror because they lack the military assets to win a regular war and they very fact that they lack those assets shows that they have no chance to win.
That's what the English said about the American Revolutionists Horemheb, aren't you a professor, you should know this already
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Susan and Noor will tell you that if nothing else, right or wrong, I do not mince words. They will have to change or cease to exist. Simply put, we have no choice but to kill them until they stop.
These are the rantings of a raving looney who has convinced himself that the only reaction to those who don't agree is neutralization, even while he condemns some of their reactions of the same thinking. We call this ridicousness and insanity.
Posts: 1074 | From: Menufia, Egypt | Registered: Oct 2005
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Well what about all this rendition stuff then? I am under the impression that many european countries are actually the place where the Us will take these suspects and give them rendition. Neatly off Us soil/jurisdiction. At least the us openly doesnt sign ay eu non-torture pacts, or the kyoto agreement for that matter.What I mean is this torture goes on in more places than we could ever know about. How do you think Soeharto kept Indonesia free of all the JI for so long?He tortured anyone or anything and they were sent packing to Phillipines /Malaysia etc etc. And what about Guantanamo Bay? I mean to say, I dont think this is a particularly west aginst arab thing, I think its a universal thing in absolutely all countries Sad but true.But I do think its about money/oil/power at the end of the day, never ever about rights or freedom.
Posts: 872 | From: Sydney | Registered: Nov 2005
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