posted
No, this isn't celebrity death match.. My question is, who was more influential to modern culture and consciousness?
Sundiata:
*Sundiata started Mali and everything that came as a result of this empire can be traced back to him.
*Indigenous mud cloth fabrics as are indigenous to west Africa among the Bambara of Mali, Guinea, etc, was identified as the most frequently imported "ethnic" fabric of the 1990s.
*The origin of the Balafon (predecessor to the western Xilophone) is associated with the epic of Sundiata. The Sosso Bala is considered a UNESCO "Masterpiece of the Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity"...
*The Kora is also associated with Sundiata and has global impacts in pop culture thanx to people such as Tounami Diabate.
*Sundiata is ranked the 46th greatest African of all time by Robin Walker.
*The "Epic of Sundiata", as translated by D.T. Niane, is a required text in many classroom ciricula here in the U.S.
*"Keita: The Heritage of the Griot", is a classic piece of cinema distributed among film enthusiasts and by extension has a notable impact on film culture.
.......................................
Musa:
*Mansa Musa is probably the primary reason why Mali is known worldwide and his name is probably the most associated with medieval west Africa.
*Of him, we probably have the only non-African depiction of a west African ruler in the middle ages.
*Musa established the mud brick architecture most commonly associated with Mali. He commissioned to have built the Sankore Madrasah which is a UNESCO world heritage site. By extension, Timbuktu is his legacy.
*Mansa Musa is featured in "Civilization IV", probably one of the (if not THE) most popular PC game of all time and ranked #2 by IGN.
*Musa was ranked the 38th greatest African of all time by Robin Walker.
*Mansa Musa's pilgrimage gave west Africans more respect and notoriety than ever before and is what attracted scholars and students to the later legendary city of Timbuktu.
*Mansa Musa was likely the richest man in the world at the time and likely the richest (in terms of having control over trade commodity) emperor in the history of the world. Who else has sent an entire economy into recession with gifts?
.................
If you give an opinion, please don't be influenced by my user name or Robin Walker's rankings.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Sundiata ushered the Malian complex, and *ultimately* passed the mantle onto Mansa Musa, who would take it to another level, which deserves to be recognized in its own right...pretty much akin to a father starting a phenomenon and then passing it onto the son, then the grandson, with *each contributing to*, if not taking that business to the next or another level. As such, the Malian complex and its impact on future development cannot be placed into its proper historical context by placing its ruling elites in isolation of one another and in competition against one another in any shape or form...unless of course, these were contemporaneous factions ideologically battling one another.
Ps, the keywords: "factions ideologically battling one another"
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
@ The Explorer,looking @ it that way well yes,without a Sundiata there would not be a Mansa Musa perhaps.but if Sundiata was push back into the dim past,into the relm of legend and folk hero as most first founders often are,then Mansa Musa would certainly stand alone imo.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Not trying to pit one against the other, just thought this would be a fun exercise. I see your point though as they are inextricably linked regardless.
As far as Mansa Musa, It's weird to compare in another sense because we seem to know a lot more about the life of Sundiata than we do of Kankou Musa. Ironic given Musa's name (and this observation may be inaccurate) seems to be exalted more so amongst the non-African recollections while Sundiata's fame is of indigenous creation, radiating outward from west African memory.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Sunjata, you posted awhile back that you needed a Jstor article. Unfortunately, that thread was moved and ultimately lost. I will gladly get the Jstor article for you and send it to your email.
If you could please send me a private message with your information.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
^Thanx so much ausar for answering my request. It's definitely appreciated, but your inbox seems to be full.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: Not trying to pit one against the other, just thought this would be a fun exercise. I see your point though as they are inextricably linked regardless.
My point is, that Mansa Musa derives from the same social layer as Sundiata, who started this complex, and so, presents a continuation and a further development of what was started. Unless, one can demonstrate that Mansa Musa's ideological approach was *radically* different from that of his "Malian" predecessors, to the point of antagonizing the pre-existing social interests of that social layer, then what is perceived as being a "comparison" here, should really be perceived as a "progression" of the state. In other words, Mansa Musa made decisions that Sundiata would have likely taken under the same set of circumstances.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
That architecture originated in Djenne well before Musa. Abu Ishaq Ibrahim only repaired an already existing building to which he added a minaret.
quote: Djenne merchants settled in Tombouctou introducing baked brick housing when it was still little more than a watering place for transhumant Twareg pastor[alist]s.(hotlink)
quote: Originally from the threads parent post: *Musa established the mud brick architecture most commonly associated with Mali. He commissioned to have built the Sankore Madrasah which is a UNESCO world heritage site. By extension, Timbuktu is his legacy.
If you give an opinion, ...
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Not sure if this is what you're hinting at but some factions in Mali were quite displeased with Gonga Musa, and his hajj brought that feeling to a head.
Iirc, because of the hajj's drain on the economy and Musa's preferential treatment of the architect/poet Ibrahim and of a desert chieftan el Mamer, non-Maliens Musa picked up on his return from Hajj.
Apparently the grumblers overlooked Musa's military feats that expanded Mali's dominion to within just three days march from Morocco's border making Mali complete master of the western Sahara, perhaps prompting Abu el Hassen Ali (aka the Black Sultan) to present a royal gift to Mali's potentate.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: Not trying to pit one against the other, just thought this would be a fun exercise. I see your point though as they are inextricably linked regardless.
My point is, that Mansa Musa derives from the same social layer as Sundiata, who started this complex, and so, presents a continuation and a further development of what was started. Unless, one can demonstrate that Mansa Musa's ideological approach was *radically* different from that of his "Malian" predecessors, to the point of antagonizing the pre-existing social interests of that social layer, then what is perceived as being a "comparison" here, should really be perceived as a "progression" of the state. In other words, Mansa Musa made decisions that Sundiata would have likely taken under the same set of circumstances.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
@ The Explorer. OK, I can appreciate that. It could be however, like comparing Washington to Lincoln. Albeit one has built and expanded from the gains of the other, but their approach to things and their respective philosophies were likely different, if only slightly. They are also received disproportionately by certain interests depending on orientation. As mentioned, Musa's status seems to be skewed more towards Muslim favor. I'm sure most will not hesitate to point out as well for example, that Sundiata was a much stronger and more influential ruler than Mansa Maghan, so there are sets of criteria one can apply. I'd agree though, that the comparative distinction between Musa and Mari Djata may be more along the lines of apples and oranges since Musa indeed seemed to pick up where his predecessors left off while utilizing his maximum potential, the same as Sundiata. So as you say, it's like comparing each man's ability to adapt to the cards that he was dealt.
quote:That architecture originated in Djenne well before Musa. Abu Ishaq Ibrahim only repaired an already existing building to which he added a minaret.
Thanx for the correction alTakuri; way to keep me sharp. Though I have ran with that misconception more than once, I must suffer from some form of habitual parroting of wherever I've read that initially because I clearly remember noting what you write here several times before, including in this thread, again where I initially contradict myself by implying that Musa started it. Weird. Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Not sure if this is what you're hinting at but some factions in Mali were quite displeased with Gonga Musa, and his hajj brought that feeling to a head.
Iirc, because of the hajj's drain on the economy and Musa's preferential treatment of the architect/poet Ibrahim and of a desert chieftan el Mamer, non-Maliens Musa picked up on his return from Hajj.
Interesting. Given my own perception I'd expect such a reaction. Someone else brought up the same intriguing question as to why he'd hire a foreign architect to simply supplement an already indigenous frame work established by the engineering conventions of the Djennereans. Indeed, this has been discussed before [including by you] and apparently Musa had more faith in his ability than was obviously warranted. The hajj was extravagant but I think most would be hard pressed to point out its practical value, other than making Mali known. Which goes to question if that was his motivation to begin with (not behind the hajj its self, but the nature of it).
-------------------- mr.writer.asa@gmail.com Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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@ The Explorer. OK, I can appreciate that. It could be however, like comparing Washington to Lincoln. Albeit one has built and expanded from the gains of the other, but their approach to things and their respective philosophies were likely different, if only slightly.
The keyword here, is "slightly", which is not the same as making a case that the socio-political philosophical base of Mansa Musa was radically different from his ancient Malian predecessors. And no, I'm not alluding to tactical differences in the successive administrations to securing the interests of the ruling class at hand, but the fundamental social class interests and related political dogma that they represented.
quote: I'd agree though, that the comparative distinction between Musa and Mari Djata may be more along the lines of apples and oranges since Musa indeed seemed to pick up where his predecessors left off while utilizing his maximum potential, the same as Sundiata. So as you say, it's like comparing each man's ability to adapt to the cards that he was dealt.
Yes!
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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The hajj was extravagant but I think most would be hard pressed to point out its practical value, other than making Mali known. Which goes to question if that was his motivation to begin with (not behind the hajj its self, but the nature of it). But if his predecesssor,Abubakari the 2nd,was intrested in exploration,and possibly new markets,then maybe that was his purpose, after all didn't trade increased after his hajj to Mecca?
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Ah, but what was the route of the hajj? One need not go westward and then north to get to Mecca, even via Egypt.
Nor need one have an accompanying entourage of more than 12,000 either, if pilgrimage is all one has in mind.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Already posted this before but Ibn Khaldun:
quote:Mansa Musa, on his return, conceived the idea of building himself a fine palace. Abu Ishak showed him a model, and erected the edifice, with plaster and all kinds of ornaments, for which he received 12,000 mithkals of gold. Mansa Musa maintained an intimate and friendly correspondence with Sultan Abu-l-Hasan, of Al-Maghreb, and reigned twenty-five years.
posted
@ Altakuri,now i am almost certain he was out to imperess,the amount of people according to one wiki source a figure of 60,000 people made the trip,sounds a bit high,but his travels reminds me of Chen Ho. of Ming dynasty China,only his was a mix of commerce,deplomacy and religious obligations.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
I haven't come across the primary documents yet but Ibrahim was supposed to erected a couple of buildings using cut stone instead of "Djenne bricks."
I have it that the ruins aren't even around any more and that one site is now a butcher shop.
More later.
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata:
quote:Not sure if this is what you're hinting at but some factions in Mali were quite displeased with Gonga Musa, and his hajj brought that feeling to a head.
Iirc, because of the hajj's drain on the economy and Musa's preferential treatment of the architect/poet Ibrahim and of a desert chieftan el Mamer, non-Maliens Musa picked up on his return from Hajj.
Interesting. Given my own perception I'd expect such a reaction. Someone else brought up the same intriguing question as to why he'd hire a foreign architect to simply supplement an already indigenous frame work established by the engineering conventions of the Djennereans. Indeed, this has been discussed before [including by you] and apparently Musa had more faith in his ability than was obviously warranted. The hajj was extravagant but I think most would be hard pressed to point out its practical value, other than making Mali known. Which goes to question if that was his motivation to begin with (not behind the hajj its self, but the nature of it).
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Interesting take as Mali had always seemed relatively isolated from outside threats and Musa's pillage being seen as a preventative measure would make sense. This would seem more plausible as well given his flaunting of both Black AND Turkish slaves, as to send a message that the potential dominance of Mali is not necessarily limited or confined to the Bilad al-Sudan.
quote:I haven't come across the primary documents yet but Ibrahim was supposed to erected a couple of buildings using cut stone instead of "Djenne bricks."
I have it that the ruins aren't even around any more and that one site is now a butcher shop.
More later.
Ironically I was just reading about this. It's mentioned in chapter three of the Tarikh al-Sudan. Al-Sadi identified the main structure as a madugu i. e, "emperor's palace" and indeed (as if speaking like these events took place in antiquity) states that by his time it had become a "slaughtering place for butchers".
I'd like to know more about the matierals they used as well. By "Jenne bricks" I assume you mean mud brick brought in from Djenne? The transport of such quantities would have been a grand achievement to say the least. I'll see what I can find on that as well. .......................
@ Evergreen.. Most definitely.. Ancient Egypt is fine and dandy but there's obviously a lack of emphasis placed on the study of other African societies not only in broader academia but even here, which is certainly the case for the Sahelian kingdoms (which is why I wish that the nile valley site had more traffic).
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
I just mean Djennereans "invented" that particular adobe clay building material. Academia has their official terminology for the bricks but I prefer a term that without doubt gives Djenne its propers.
A brick factory in Djenne photo by Vytenis Benetis
About transport; there were regular merchant fleets along the Joliba. Can't remember if I posted anything on them here (or more likely on TNV).
Freehand?
quote:Sundjata wrote:
By "Jenne bricks" I assume you mean mud brick brought in from Djenne?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Evergreen Writes: Interesting stuff. As a west coast native I have allways been interested in the similarities between the SW/Mexican style of architecture and the saheilian styles.
-------------------- Black Roots. Posts: 2007 | From: Washington State | Registered: Oct 2006
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