posted
ausar posted this in an old thread; thought I might dig it up for our benefit.
quote:""....Nose form is function largely of climatic factors,such as temperature and mositure content of the air,rather then a simple result of racial affinities. The nose serves moisten the inspired air,so in the drier regions of thwe world people have noses which pocess the greatest surface area of the moucous membrane,a condition achieved by the longer ,more narrow nose form;so among desert and mountain peoples the narrow nose is predominant.[7] Even in cold and drier climates the Eskimos have a narrow nasal aperature,which provides an effiecent mechanism for warming as well as moistening the inspired air. It is simple matter of fact that a high narrow nasal opening can warm and mositen air more effeciently than a short borad one,and in climates where the moisture content of the air is very low ,selective forces act on this particular nose form ,wheather the dryness is due to intense heat or intense cold[Table 3-8] Since face form is due to the interaction of the growth processes of several facial bones,and single feature is interacting forces. This is especially true of nose form,whose width is correlated with climate,as noted above ,but also with the size and proportion of the upper dental arch.As the palate gets wider,the nasal aperature becomes broader. The case of the Austrlian Aboriginees is a good example;though they live in a very dry area of the world,their noses are extremely broad ,and this dimension is related to the chewing process exerted on the velop. Also,prongnathism tends to be associated with a short borad nose,and significant correlation is found between the length of the skull base and nasal width. These factors of climatic influence and structural interrelationship suggest that human face form is extremely complex,numerous varible being invovled in growth and development. Conclusions should not be drawn about relationships between two populations on the basis of a similairty in structure ,because face form[like the small statue in pgymies and Negritos discussed above] develops according to local factors of natural selction. It is not ncessary to postulate migrations and intermixtures to explain similairites between populations,as once was done for the Nilotic face form found in groups like the Nuer,Shilluk,and others in Eastern Africa. At one time their long striaght noses were believed to be due to contact and interbreeding with caucasoid groups form Western Asia. subsequent genetic studies donot borne this theory out . No doubt,over a period of thousand years,contact with Western Asia populations has taken place and some interbreeding has resulted,but people with Nilotic face are the result of local selective forces acting on the population;it is not merely a matter of interbreeding between races......."""""
Page 63-64
Race,Types,and Ethnic Groups the problem with human variation Stephen Molnar
This could be why not all African groups have significant prognathism; those without it are better adapted to a dry climate.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Pure speculation--since the correlation between prognathism and nasal breadth has not been established.
The extent of prognathism in Africans is approximately the same as with East Asians, yet the nasal height(bridges) of Africans is significantly higher than for East Asians.
Furthermore the nasal width of South East Asians is statistically on par with Africans and for a significant percentage of East Asians, greater.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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If true this might help explain the relatively wide nasal breadth of km.t rm.tyw in comparison to that of most Euros including even ancient of Greece and Rome for the most part.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006
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T. Rex Quote: This could be why not all African groups have significant prognathism; those without it are better adapted to a dry climate.
I see that you are trying to perpetuate the racist propaganda that Blacks are prognathic. Well then, if not all Black groups are prognathic, which ones are?? You are clearly inferring that some are, so who are they?? I'll make it easy for you, King has posted pictures of many different types of Blacks. Just pick out the prognathic ones and repost them here.
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^^^On the OTHER hand, it seems quite COMMON in WHITE people!!!!!!!
So put that little piece of White Mans BULLSH1T in the toilet where it belongs!!!
Mandibular prognathism (progenism)
Pathologic mandibular prognathism is a potentially disfiguring, genetic disorder where the lower jaw outgrows the upper, resulting in an extended chin. A young King Alfonso XIII of Spain, son of the Habsburg Archduchess Maria Christina, displays the prominent Habsburg lip and jaw.
Alfonso XIII King of Spain[/b]
The condition colloquially is known as Habsburg jaw, Habsburg lip or Austrian Lip (see Habsburg) due to its prevalence in that bloodline.[4] The trait is easily traceable in portraits of Habsburg family members.[5] This has provided tools for people interested in studying genetics and pedigree analysis. Most instances are considered polygenetic.[6]
It is alleged to have been derived through a female from the princely Polish family of Piasts, its Masovian branch. The deformation of lips is clearly visible on tomb sculptures of Mazovian Piasts in the St. John's Cathedral in Warsaw. However this may be, there exists evidence that the trait is longstanding. It is perhaps first observed in Maximilian I (1459-1519).
Traits such as these that were common to royal families are believed to have been passed on and exaggerated over time through royal intermarriage which caused acute inbreeding. Due to the large amount of politically motivated intermarriage among Habsburgs, the dynasty was virtually unparalleled in the degree of its inbreeding. Charles II of Spain is said to have had the most pronounced case of the Habsburg jaw on record. His jaw was so deformed that he was unable to chew.
quote:Originally posted by T. Rex: ausar posted this in an old thread; thought I might dig it up for our benefit.
quote:""....Nose form is function largely of climatic factors,such as temperature and mositure content of the air,rather then a simple result of racial affinities. The nose serves moisten the inspired air,so in the drier regions of thwe world people have noses which pocess the greatest surface area of the moucous membrane,a condition achieved by the longer ,more narrow nose form;so among desert and mountain peoples the narrow nose is predominant.[7] Even in cold and drier climates the Eskimos have a narrow nasal aperature,which provides an effiecent mechanism for warming as well as moistening the inspired air. It is simple matter of fact that a high narrow nasal opening can warm and mositen air more effeciently than a short borad one,and in climates where the moisture content of the air is very low ,selective forces act on this particular nose form ,wheather the dryness is due to intense heat or intense cold[Table 3-8] Since face form is due to the interaction of the growth processes of several facial bones,and single feature is interacting forces. This is especially true of nose form,whose width is correlated with climate,as noted above ,but also with the size and proportion of the upper dental arch.As the palate gets wider,the nasal aperature becomes broader. The case of the Austrlian Aboriginees is a good example;though they live in a very dry area of the world,their noses are extremely broad ,and this dimension is related to the chewing process exerted on the develop. Also,prongnathism tends to be associated with a short borad nose,and significant correlation is found between the length of the skull base and nasal width. These factors of climatic influence and structural interrelationship suggest that human face form is extremely complex,numerous varible being invovled in growth and development. Conclusions should not be drawn about relationships between two populations on the basis of a similairty in structure ,because face form[like the small statue in pgymies and Negritos discussed above] develops according to local factors of natural selction. It is not ncessary to postulate migrations and intermixtures to explain similairites between populations,as once was done for the Nilotic face form found in groups like the Nuer,Shilluk,and others in Eastern Africa. At one time their long striaght noses were believed to be due to contact and interbreeding with caucasoid groups form Western Asia. subsequent genetic studies donot borne this theory out . No doubt,over a period of thousand years,contact with Western Asia populations has taken place and some interbreeding has resulted,but people with Nilotic face are the result of local selective forces acting on the population;it is not merely a matter of interbreeding between races......."""""
Page 63-64
Race,Types,and Ethnic Groups: the problem with human variation Stephen Molnar
This could be why not all African groups have significant prognathism; those without it are better adapted to a dry climate.
Your referenced study is a valuable reminder than narrow noses are a routine part of how Africans look and that narrow noses do not need any "mix" with any other "race" to explain them. But your assertion linking prognathism and climate appears shaky. The article more associated NOSES with climate, not prognathism. You made a shaky logical leap between the two points it seems to me.
In Africa, broad nosed people live in the high cool altitudes of East Africa or in the hot dry air of the Sahara, alongside narrow nosed people in the same environments. Assuming the author is accurate in saying "prognathism tends to be associated with a short boroad nose" - when it comes to Africa, this is only so for SOME Africans on the continent. In East and West Africa people who are narrow nosed ALSO show prognathism. In fact this is one of the things that researchers keep seeing in studies of the Nile Valley, which is one of the big cranio-facial factors in how they initially identified many specimens as "negroid".
African diversity is such that broad speculations like yours don't hold up. Climate is only one significant factor in varying how african people look. Groups WITH heavy prognathism are well represented in dry climates throughout Africa.
The Molnar book is a general text, which one reviewer says:
"Explores origins of human diversity and criticizes the reliance on racial labels, showing how new data on genetic markers points to the weaknesses of "classic" race divisions. Subjects include the biological basis for human variation, hemoglobin variants and DNA markers, traits of simple and complex inheritance, and changing dimensions of the human species. This fourth edition is reorganized to incorporate new records of DNA polymorphisms and to place these data in a frame of reference that does not depend on race categories. Although explanations start with the basics and are sometimes lively and interesting, this important material has not been predigested for general readers."
It has some value in showing how the standard "race" claims break down in Africa. Keep on posting new excerpts of interest as you see them.
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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zarahan - I would place the same burden on you. You have made the statement: "Groups WITH heavy prognathism are well represented in dry climates throughout Africa."
I know of no such group or groups: Tell me the people and show me the pictures.Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Check out Keita 92, 93, 2004. In his study of ancient crania from North Africa and the Sahara, prognathism is one of the markers that indicates the presence of a tropical African variant. It is not the only marker but it is an important one. This is old news in antrhopology and forensics. This does not mean tha to be "truly" balck or African that you HAVE to have prognathism. The peoples of Africa are so diverse in looks, particularly East Africa, that sometimes they do, or do not, have the marker- but they still remain black Africans. You earlier said that whites had more prognathism than blacks. What scientifc source do you use to back up this claim?
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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