Is there any artwork of Black Moors of spain (Al-Andulas)?
I raise this question because I noticed the exchange taking place in a thread with one side claiming the moors were predominantly black and the other side refuting it. Additionally, paintings were provided in the thread. It was argued in the thread that the paintings presented by the Afrocentrists on the forum are post Moors of Al-Andulas.
Can any of the Afrocentrist brothers post up some paintings of black moors of the 8th to 10th century?
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posted
Can any of the Afrocentrist brothers post up some paintings of White or non-Black Moors of the 8th to 10th century?
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posted
The name Moor was never used in the 8-10th century for white Muslims so that is not going to be possible.
It simply meant the black man whether Christian Muslim or Jew.
I saw a very early depiction of "Moors" on a television documentary about the island of Corfou a Greek Island, but they were portayed dark brown.
I'm not an Afrocentrist, nor a brother but the Moors being mostly descendants of ancient Arabian or "Semitic" bedouin did not portray themselves in image. It is a well known fact that the human image was considered sacred among bedouin and thus the human portrait and especially the Prophet was rarely if ever artistically depicted.
Most of the early representations are by Europeans.
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posted
I would not necessarily call these moors "white" but they were definitly non black (Arab and Berber). Here is an example of one:
Tariq ibn Ziyad conquered Hispania in 711 CE
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Can any of the Afrocentrist brothers post up some paintings of White or non-Black Moors of the 8th to 10th century?
posted
I just posted a picture of a non-black moore - "Tariq". He was a top general that conquered Hispania.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The name Moor was never used in the 8-10th century for white Muslims so that is not going to be possible.
It simply meant the black man whether Christian Muslim or Jew.
I saw a very early depiction of "Moors" on a television documentary about the island of Corfou a Greek Island, but they were portayed dark brown.
I'm not an Afrocentrist, nor a brother but the Moors being mostly descendants of ancient Arabian or "Semitic" bedouin did not portray themselves in image. It is a well known fact that the human image was considered sacred among bedouin and thus the human portrait and especially the Prophet was rarely if ever artistically depicted.
Most of the early representations are by Europeans.
posted
I posted a picture of a non black moor dating back to 8th CE. I am asking my Afrocentrist brothers to post up some Black moors from that period. Can you please post some up?
-------------------- Seeking to understand Afrocentrism Posts: 101 | Registered: Jan 2010
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We're waiting, you can post in that thread instead of responding to me here.
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quote:Originally posted by Muhommed Abed: I posted a picture of a non black moor dating back to 8th CE. I am asking my Afrocentrist brothers to post up some Black moors from that period. Can you please post some up?
That would be an impossibility since the word Moor meant black in the 8th century and not Muslim. To say black black is redundant I would say.
Moors were black people who were Christians Jews and Muslims. Anyone who says otherwise does not know history.
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quote:Originally posted by Muhommed Abed: I just posted a picture of a non-black moore - "Tariq". He was a top general that conquered Hispania.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The name Moor was never used in the 8-10th century for white Muslims so that is not going to be possible.
It simply meant the black man whether Christian Muslim or Jew.
I saw a very early depiction of "Moors" on a television documentary about the island of Corfou a Greek Island, but they were portayed dark brown.
I'm not an Afrocentrist, nor a brother but the Moors being mostly descendants of ancient Arabian or "Semitic" bedouin did not portray themselves in image. It is a well known fact that the human image was considered sacred among bedouin and thus the human portrait and especially the Prophet was rarely if ever artistically depicted.
Most of the early representations are by Europeans.
Are you talking about "the Tariq". Tariq bin Ziyad of the Nafzawa Berbers who belonged to the unquestionably Zenata tribe originally from the deserts of Tripolitania, and known as Zenafej in the eastern desert of Sudan?!
Are you talking about that later sculpture of Tariq that shows some Gothic looking man on a horse?! What Tariq are you talking about - the one in some European's underactive imagination or are you talking about Tariq of the Nafusa.
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quote:Originally posted by Muhommed Abed: I would not necessarily call these moors "white" but they were definitly non black (Arab and Berber). Here is an example of one:
Tariq ibn Ziyad conquered Hispania in 711 CE
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Can any of the Afrocentrist brothers post up some paintings of White or non-Black Moors of the 8th to 10th century?
.
Muhommed Abed - You are either a very desperate or a very silly person. You wouldn't be one of those Amazin (or whatever they call themselves) so-called Berbers would you?
When you post a picture, it's always a good idea to authentic it. See below.
Your picture from Wiki:
Description
Drawing of Tariq ibn Ziyad Source self-made Author Koncise101Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Muhommed Abed: I would not necessarily call these moors "white" but they were definitly non black (Arab and Berber). Here is an example of one:
Tariq ibn Ziyad conquered Hispania in 711 CE
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Can any of the Afrocentrist brothers post up some paintings of White or non-Black Moors of the 8th to 10th century?
Oh the wickipedia version right. Like the Moorish rulers on Wickipedia. Just what I thought.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Muhommed Abed: Peace and greetings.
Is there any artwork of Black Moors of spain (Al-Andulas)?
I raise this question because I noticed the exchange taking place in a thread with one side claiming the moors were predominantly black and the other side refuting it. Additionally, paintings were provided in the thread. It was argued in the thread that the paintings presented by the Afrocentrists on the forum are post Moors of Al-Andulas.
Can any of the Afrocentrist brothers post up some paintings of black moors of the 8th to 10th century?
See this is the problem, no one said the Moors were Predominantly Black. Our Argument is that the Moors was used to refer to a multi-racial Ethnic group that INCLUDED blacks?
How Hard is this to understand?
Fawal wanted to present it as if the Moors were White, which unless you are calling Berbers and Arabs white that is not true either. Of Course the Moors were not all black, Hell they did not even take wives from their native lands but had families WITH NATIVE EUROPEANS...for Gods sake. Of course the Moors would be presented as Light Skinned with very few Jet Black sterotypical Sub Sahrans.
Also the Population of Al-Andalucia would have varied from time to time. At one point the Native Iberians out nembered the Arabs and Berbers combined. Slavic Slaves were present, Yemini, Turks, Arabs, Egyptians, Syrians were present...
How hard is this to understand, the Moors were originally the Black populations of North Africa, During the occupation it was a multi-racial category.
^^^ On this one you can see Some mixed typed and some Black out numbered by Arabs.
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posted
Lol I noticed that as well (the self made wikipedia drawing ), Mohammed come on, you disappoint.
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quote:Originally posted by Muhommed Abed: I would not necessarily call these moors "white" but they were definitly non black (Arab and Berber). Here is an example of one:
Tariq ibn Ziyad conquered Hispania in 711 CE
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Can any of the Afrocentrist brothers post up some paintings of White or non-Black Moors of the 8th to 10th century?
That is an example of why Wikipedia is not a place to take authoritative works. All of the Moorish rulers on Wikipedia are shown as looking like Goths and Romans. This picture of Tariq according to the Wikipedia author was "self-made" LOL. Wickedpedia is not the place to go to get authentic pictures or history for that matter.
The Nafzawa could not have looked any different from a modern Tuareg of Mali who are a remnant of the Zenata. Of course there is also the possiblity that Tariq was not a Berber but the slave of a Berber which might make more sense.
Girl of Jebel Nafusa
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posted
Sorry this is the 2nd Image I meant to post... Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Muhommed Abed: Peace and greetings.
Is there any artwork of Black Moors of spain (Al-Andulas)?
I raise this question because I noticed the exchange taking place in a thread with one side claiming the moors were predominantly black and the other side refuting it. Additionally, paintings were provided in the thread. It was argued in the thread that the paintings presented by the Afrocentrists on the forum are post Moors of Al-Andulas.
Can any of the Afrocentrist brothers post up some paintings of black moors of the 8th to 10th century?
See this is the problem, no one said the Moors were Predominantly Black. Our Argument is that the Moors was used to refer to a multi-racial Ethnic group that INCLUDED blacks?
How Hard is this to understand?
Fawal wanted to present it as if the Moors were White, which unless you are calling Berbers and Arabs white that is not true either. Of Course the Moors were not all black, Hell they did not even take wives from their native lands but had families WITH NATIVE EUROPEANS...for Gods sake. Of course the Moors would be presented as Light Skinned with very few Jet Black sterotypical Sub Sahrans.
Also the Population of Al-Andalucia would have varied from time to time. At one point the Native Iberians out nembered the Arabs and Berbers combined. Slavic Slaves were present, Yemini, Turks, Arabs, Egyptians, Syrians were present...
How hard is this to understand, the Moors were originally the Black populations of North Africa, During the occupation it was a multi-racial category.
^^^ On this one you can see Some mixed typed and some Black out numbered by Arabs.
The word Moor was not used in early times for an ethnic group. It was used for black people who occupied the coasts of North Africa synonomously called Ethiopians. When the Arabians entered Spain the Spaniards and other Latins came to call to use the name Moro for them because of their color.
Ur statement about the Moors is tantamount to saying the Negros were predominantly black. I don't know what that means, neither would have early Europeans or Christian Spaniards until the 13th century.
Kurds, Syrians, Slaves, Turks and non-white people were not called Moro in Spain contrary to recent Eurocentric blogger assertions.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Quote: "It is a well known fact that the human image was considered sacred among bedouin and thus the human portrait and especially the Prophet was rarely if ever artistically depicted."
.
Don't bother, I'll tell you. Because the Turk masters of Islam told you so. .
Reason?
.
Because if pictures of the Prophet were published, they would have to look like this.
posted
Muslim in Spain was not a synonym for Moro or Mauri. Neither was Moroccan or maghrebin or Arab. The word "Moro" in all Latin dictionaries meant Negro. The term tawny Moor and white Moor came into use only in the time of the 14th century mainly in England to describe the fair skinned people Moors.
-------------------- D. Reynolds-Marniche Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: dana marniche - How do you know this?
Quote: "It is a well known fact that the human image was considered sacred among bedouin and thus the human portrait and especially the Prophet was rarely if ever artistically depicted."
.
[b]Don't bother, I'll tell you. Because the Turk masters of Islam told you so. .
Reason?
.
Because if pictures of the Prophet were published, they would have to look like this.
[
You need to ask an Arabian bedouin Michael - like people interested in research and not just black nationalist rhetoric have done.
Why don't u ask these people below of the lineage Kha'tham (Gatam) and Azd while ur at it ask them if they appreciate you putting up a picture of what their Prophet looked like. At least respect ur own people! Since u can't respect anybody else.
quote:Originally posted by Muhommed Abed: Peace and greetings.
Is there any artwork of Black Moors of spain (Al-Andulas)?
I raise this question because I noticed the exchange taking place in a thread with one side claiming the moors were predominantly black and the other side refuting it. Additionally, paintings were provided in the thread. It was argued in the thread that the paintings presented by the Afrocentrists on the forum are post Moors of Al-Andulas.
Can any of the Afrocentrist brothers post up some paintings of black moors of the 8th to 10th century?
See this is the problem, no one said the Moors were Predominantly Black. Our Argument is that the Moors was used to refer to a multi-racial Ethnic group that INCLUDED blacks?
How Hard is this to understand?
Fawal wanted to present it as if the Moors were White, which unless you are calling Berbers and Arabs white that is not true either. Of Course the Moors were not all black, Hell they did not even take wives from their native lands but had families WITH NATIVE EUROPEANS...for Gods sake. Of course the Moors would be presented as Light Skinned with very few Jet Black sterotypical Sub Sahrans.
Also the Population of Al-Andalucia would have varied from time to time. At one point the Native Iberians out nembered the Arabs and Berbers combined. Slavic Slaves were present, Yemini, Turks, Arabs, Egyptians, Syrians were present...
How hard is this to understand, the Moors were originally the Black populations of North Africa, During the occupation it was a multi-racial category.
^^^ On this one you can see Some mixed typed and some Black out numbered by Arabs.
The word Moor was not used in early times for an ethnic group. It was used for black people who occupied the coasts of North Africa synonomously called Ethiopians. When the Arabians entered Spain the Spaniards and other Latins came to call to use the name Moro for them because of their color.
Ur statement about the Moors is tantamount to saying the Negros were predominantly black. I don't know what that means, neither would have early Europeans or Christian Spaniards until the 13th century.
When we talk about Al-Andalus and its history as a whole we call the Muslim inhabitants Moors. This is similar to "American" "Australian" and so forth regardless of the original meaning. Now you are right if we get technical(and sadly we should more often) We would break the "Moors" into different Ethnic groups the Muwalludun, Mozarabs, the Tafias, Saqiliba, Almoravids, Almohads etc. You are right though the word Moor: Greek word Mauros for the aboriginal inhabitants of North Africa. In english its usage is often used for the inhabitants of Muslim Spain be they african, Near Eastern or Mixed.
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Muhommed Abed: [qb] Peace and greetings.
[ Also the Population of Al-Andalucia would have varied from time to time. At one point the Native Iberians out nembered the Arabs and Berbers combined. Slavic Slaves were present, Yemini, Turks, Arabs, Egyptians, Syrians were present...
How hard is this to understand, the Moors were originally the Black populations of North Africa, During the occupation it was a multi-racial category.
When we talk about Al-Andalus and its history as a whole we call the Muslim inhabitants Moors. This is similar to "American" "Australian" and so forth regardless of the original meaning. Now you are right if we get technical(and sadly we should more often) We would break the "Moors" into different Ethnic groups the Muwalludun, Mozarabs, the Tafias, Saqiliba, Almoravids, Almohads etc. You are right though the word Moor: Greek word Mauros for the aboriginal inhabitants of North Africa. In english its usage is often used for the inhabitants of Muslim Spain be they african, Near Eastern or Mixed.
I'm not really arguing with u Jari but to play devil's advocate whose "we"? The word Moor was not originally used for all of Muslim Spaniards by the English. And when "we" say "Moorish" Spain that refers to the culture that was brought into Spain by the people that were called Moors.
Muslims elsewhere did not necessarily have "Moorish" culture. When one says "Moorish" they are talking of a particular brand of Muslim culture that was brought their mainly by the Almoravide and the original Yemenite Arabians. When one says the Moorish wail or the Moorish architecture that refers to something unique to African and Afro-Arabian culture which was the dominant culture of Muslim Spain. These people had a different culture than the Syrians, Iranians, Kurds and Turks that the Middle East.
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posted
dana marniche have you ever heard of a "Black-A-Moor"? There is a tawny moor and a Black-a-moor. Do you know the difference between a tawny moor and a black a moor?
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: That would be an impossibility since the word Moor meant black in the 8th century and not Muslim. To say black black is redundant I would say.
Moors were black people who were Christians Jews and Muslims. Anyone who says otherwise does not know history. [/QB]
posted
I'm referring to Tariq bin Ziyad. I put up a picture made of him in the 8th century. Did you not see the image? It is quite a popular one.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Are you talking about "the Tariq". Tariq bin Ziyad of the Nafzawa Berbers who belonged to the unquestionably Zenata tribe originally from the deserts of Tripolitania, and known as Zenafej in the eastern desert of Sudan?!
Are you talking about that later sculpture of Tariq that shows some Gothic looking man on a horse?! What Tariq are you talking about - the one in some European's underactive imagination or are you talking about Tariq of the Nafusa.
quote:Originally posted by Muhommed Abed: Peace and greetings.
Is there any artwork of Black Moors of spain (Al-Andulas)?
I raise this question because I noticed the exchange taking place in a thread with one side claiming the moors were predominantly black and the other side refuting it. Additionally, paintings were provided in the thread. It was argued in the thread that the paintings presented by the Afrocentrists on the forum are post Moors of Al-Andulas.
Can any of the Afrocentrist brothers post up some paintings of black moors of the 8th to 10th century?
See this is the problem, no one said the Moors were Predominantly Black. Our Argument is that the Moors was used to refer to a multi-racial Ethnic group that INCLUDED blacks?
How Hard is this to understand?
Fawal wanted to present it as if the Moors were White, which unless you are calling Berbers and Arabs white that is not true either. Of Course the Moors were not all black, Hell they did not even take wives from their native lands but had families WITH NATIVE EUROPEANS...for Gods sake. Of course the Moors would be presented as Light Skinned with very few Jet Black sterotypical Sub Sahrans.
Also the Population of Al-Andalucia would have varied from time to time. At one point the Native Iberians out nembered the Arabs and Berbers combined. Slavic Slaves were present, Yemini, Turks, Arabs, Egyptians, Syrians were present...
How hard is this to understand, the Moors were originally the Black populations of North Africa, During the occupation it was a multi-racial category.
^^^ On this one you can see Some mixed typed and some Black out numbered by Arabs.
The word Moor was not used in early times for an ethnic group. It was used for black people who occupied the coasts of North Africa synonomously called Ethiopians. When the Arabians entered Spain the Spaniards and other Latins came to call to use the name Moro for them because of their color.
Ur statement about the Moors is tantamount to saying the Negros were predominantly black. I don't know what that means, neither would have early Europeans or Christian Spaniards until the 13th century.
When we talk about Al-Andalus and its history as a whole we call the Muslim inhabitants Moors. This is similar to "American" "Australian" and so forth regardless of the original meaning. Now you are right if we get technical(and sadly we should more often) We would break the "Moors" into different Ethnic groups the Muwalludun, Mozarabs, the Tafias, Saqiliba, Almoravids, Almohads etc. You are right though the word Moor: Greek word Mauros for the aboriginal inhabitants of North Africa. In english its usage is often used for the inhabitants of Muslim Spain be they african, Near Eastern or Mixed.
Whose "we"? The word Moor was not originally used for all of Muslim Spaniards by the English. And when "we" say "Moorish" Spain that refers to the culture that was brought into Spain by the people that were called Moors.
Muslims elsewhere did not necessarily have "Moorish" culture. When one says "Moorish" they are talking of a particular brand of Muslim culture that was brought their mainly by the Almoravide and the original Yemenite Arabians. When one says the Moorish wail or the Moorish architecture that refers to something unique to African and Afro-Arabian culture which was the dominant culture of Muslim Spain. These people had a different culture than the Syrians, Iranians, Kurds and Turks that the Middle East.
Dana when I research the Moor the presenter usually classifies all the different tribes into one group "Moors". If you r implying that during its time the inhabitants distiqueshed themselves, well O.K, that is very likely but the fact is now a days "Moor" is a blanket term.
Yes Dana the dominant culture was Afro-Arabian
Dana you would'nt be able to translate that you tube clip???
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quote:Originally posted by Muhommed Abed: dana marniche have you ever heard of a "Black-A-Moor"? There is a tawny moor, Black-a-moor. Do you know the difference between a tawny moor and a black a moor?
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: That would be an impossibility since the word Moor meant black in the 8th century and not Muslim. To say black black is redundant I would say.
Moors were black people who were Christians Jews and Muslims. Anyone who says otherwise does not know history.
[/QB]
Do you mean black - a -Moor as in Haydyn "the blackaMoor" so called because he was like a Moor in color as J. A Rogers rightly wrote.. Or do u mean the Stormfront brand of blackaMoor.
Black as a Moor = Black -a -Moor! Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
jari-Ankhamun I was not referring to you if you do not subscribe to this view that the majority of the moors were Black.
I already know the moorish movement included Blacks. The blacks for the most part were conscripts. Also, blacks were the minority in moorish spain, as well as moorish north Africa.
Here is a 10th century depiction of moors. As you can see there is one black moor amongst the majority Berber and Arab moors:
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: See this is the problem, no one said the Moors were Predominantly Black. Our Argument is that the Moors was used to refer to a multi-racial Ethnic group that INCLUDED blacks?
How Hard is this to understand?
Fawal wanted to present it as if the Moors were White, which unless you are calling Berbers and Arabs white that is not true either. Of Course the Moors were not all black, Hell they did not even take wives from their native lands but had families WITH NATIVE EUROPEANS...for Gods sake. Of course the Moors would be presented as Light Skinned with very few Jet Black sterotypical Sub Sahrans.
Also the Population of Al-Andalucia would have varied from time to time. At one point the Native Iberians out nembered the Arabs and Berbers combined. Slavic Slaves were present, Yemini, Turks, Arabs, Egyptians, Syrians were present...
How hard is this to understand, the Moors were originally the Black populations of North Africa, During the occupation it was a multi-racial category.
^^^ On this one you can see Some mixed typed and some Black out numbered by Arabs. The word Moor was not used in early times for an ethnic group. It was used for black people who occupied the coasts of North Africa synonomously called Ethiopians. When the Arabians entered Spain the Spaniards and other Latins came to call to use the name Moro for them because of their color.
Ur statement about the Moors is tantamount to saying the Negros were predominantly black. I don't know what that means, neither would have early Europeans or Christian Spaniards until the 13th century. When we talk about Al-Andalus and its history as a whole we call the Muslim inhabitants Moors. This is similar to "American" "Australian" and so forth regardless of the original meaning. Now you are right if we get technical(and sadly we should more often) We would break the "Moors" into different Ethnic groups the Muwalludun, Mozarabs, the Tafias, Saqiliba, Almoravids, Almohads etc. You are right though the word Moor: Greek word Mauros for the aboriginal inhabitants of North Africa. In english its usage is often used for the inhabitants of Muslim Spain be they african, Near Eastern or Mixed.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Muhommed Abed: [qb] Peace and greetings.
[ Also the Population of Al-Andalucia would have varied from time to time. At one point the Native Iberians out nembered the Arabs and Berbers combined. Slavic Slaves were present, Yemini, Turks, Arabs, Egyptians, Syrians were present...
How hard is this to understand, the Moors were originally the Black populations of North Africa, During the occupation it was a multi-racial category.
When we talk about Al-Andalus and its history as a whole we call the Muslim inhabitants Moors. This is similar to "American" "Australian" and so forth regardless of the original meaning. Now you are right if we get technical(and sadly we should more often) We would break the "Moors" into different Ethnic groups the Muwalludun, Mozarabs, the Tafias, Saqiliba, Almoravids, Almohads etc. You are right though the word Moor: Greek word Mauros for the aboriginal inhabitants of North Africa. In english its usage is often used for the inhabitants of Muslim Spain be they african, Near Eastern or Mixed.
I'm not really arguing with u Jari but to play devil's advocate whose "we"? The word Moor was not originally used for all of Muslim Spaniards by the English. And when "we" say "Moorish" Spain that refers to the culture that was brought into Spain by the people that were called Moors.
Muslims elsewhere did not necessarily have "Moorish" culture. When one says "Moorish" they are talking of a particular brand of Muslim culture that was brought their mainly by the Almoravide and the original Yemenite Arabians. When one says the Moorish wail or the Moorish architecture that refers to something unique to African and Afro-Arabian culture which was the dominant culture of Muslim Spain. These people had a different culture than the Syrians, Iranians, Kurds and Turks that the Middle East.
Trust me Dana I don't want to argue, I value opinions. If you respect me I will respect you adn you seem to be rather respectful.
I think we should be able to talk amoungst each other as true Intellegencia with out insults and boast of Racial superiority.
Dana you say it was mainly Yemite and Almoravids who brought the culture. My research says that Abd Rachman a Half Berber half(I think) Syrian brought the Near Easter culture to Al-Andalucia. Of course the Almoravids and Almohads brought their share. Don't you think it was multicultural??
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: ...If you r implying that during its time the inhabitants distiqueshed themselves, well O.K, that is very likely but the fact is now a days "Moor" is a blanket term.
Yes Dana the dominant culture was Afro-Arabian
Dana you would'nt be able to translate that you tube clip???
Jari - if u look at history books before the the recent rise of anti-Arab founded Berber nationalism and Zionist history which makes all ancient Semitic and Berber people into some mythical European people influenced by "the Negro" you will not find scholars classifying all people in Muslim Spain as Moors because a lot of them knew "Moro" for the Mozarabs meant "a black man". The word Moorish generally refered to the culture that was in the Iberian peninsula and not generically a reference to different groups in Spain. Their were Moorish Jews, Moorish Arabs and then there were other people.
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posted
And what about "Tawny moor"? According to your logic, that would mean - "Tawny as a Moor." I think you should reconsider your exegesis on Black-a-moor.
Just incase you've never heard of a tawnymoor:
quote: Tawny \Taw"ny\, a. [Compar. Tawnier; superl. Tawniest.]
[F. tann['e], p. p. of tanner to tan. See Tan, v. t. & n. Cf. Tenn['e].]
Of a dull yellowish brown color, like things tanned, or persons who are sunburnt; as, tawny Moor or Spaniard; the tawny lion. "A leopard's tawny and spotted hide." --Longfellow. [1913 Webster]
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Do you mean black - a -Moor as in Haydyn "the blackaMoor" so called because he was like a Moor in color as J. A Rogers rightly wrote.. Or do u mean the Stormfront brand of blackaMoor.
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Muhommed Abed: [QB] jari-Ankhamun I was not referring to you if you do not subscribe to this view that the majority of the moors were Black.
I already know the moorish movement included Blacks. The blacks for the most part were conscripts. Also, blacks were the minority in moorish spain, as well as moorish north Africa.
Here is a 10th century depiction of moors. As you can see there is one black moor amongst the majority Berber and Arab moors:
My beief is that there was a nice sized populations of Blacks they just became absorbed into the society. Lets say if alot of Black Berbers and other African came, The Moors took no wives from Africa so in time much of the population would have been mixed.
There were also large populations of Blacks in places like Mauritania and Morocco during this time.
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quote:Originally posted by Muhommed Abed: And what about "Tawny moor"? According to your logic, that would mean - "Tawny as a Moor." I think you should reconsider the exegesis on Black-a-moor.
Just incase you've never heard of a tawnymoor:
Tawny \Taw"ny\, a. [Compar. Tawnier; superl. Tawniest.]
[F. tann['e], p. p. of tanner to tan. See Tan, v. t. & n. Cf. Tenn['e].]
Of a dull yellowish brown color, like things tanned, or persons who are sunburnt; as, tawny Moor or Spaniard; the tawny lion. "A leopard's tawny and spotted hide." --Longfellow. [1913 Webster]
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Do you mean black - a -Moor as in Haydyn "the blackaMoor" so called because he was like a Moor in color as J. A Rogers rightly wrote.. Or do u mean the Stormfront brand of blackaMoor.
Black as a Moor = Black -a -Moor!
That is not my logic - Abed. That is what it meant black -a - moor is also different than tawny Moor i.e. "tawny Negro". And yes the term white moor came to be used as well after 1000 years of the word Moor meaning Negro. Also I submit to you one should not just make up things without showing the proof of it outside of Wikipedia or Stormfront or else one runs into problems.
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quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: My beief is that there was a nice sized populations of Blacks they just became absorbed into the society. Lets say if alot of Black Berbers and other African came, The Moors took no wives from Africa so in time much of the population would have been mixed.
There were also large populations of Blacks in places like Mauritania and Morocco during this time.
quote:Originally posted by Muhommed Abed: And what about "Tawny moor"? According to your logic, that would mean - "Tawny as a Moor." I think you should reconsider the exegesis on Black-a-moor.
Just incase you've never heard of a tawnymoor:
Tawny \Taw"ny\, a. [Compar. Tawnier; superl. Tawniest.]
[F. tann['e], p. p. of tanner to tan. See Tan, v. t. & n. Cf. Tenn['e].]
Of a dull yellowish brown color, like things tanned, or persons who are sunburnt; as, tawny Moor or Spaniard; the tawny lion. "A leopard's tawny and spotted hide." --Longfellow. [1913 Webster]
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Do you mean black - a -Moor as in Haydyn "the blackaMoor" so called because he was like a Moor in color as J. A Rogers rightly wrote.. Or do u mean the Stormfront brand of blackaMoor.
Black as a Moor = Black -a -Moor!
That is not my logic - Abed. That is what it meant black -a - moor is also different than tawny Moor i.e. "tawny Negro". And yes the term white moor came to be used as well after 1000 years of the word Moor meaning Negro. Also I submit to you one should not just make up things without showing the proof of it outside of Wikipedia or Stormfront or else one runs into problems.
According to your logic Haydn the composer and other Europeans were called blackaMoors because they were black Moors. Now how much sense does that make?
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: That is not my logic - Abed. That is what it meant black -a - moor
You did not cite the lexicon where you got your meaning. That is why I am ascribing the logic to you. Can you cite your source to Black-A-Moor meaning Black as a Moor. That definition presents a problem since the term "tawny moor" also exists. I am sure you can see the contradiction (moor cannot mean both Black and Tawny).
quote: is also different than tawny Moor i.e. "tawny Negro"
Can you provide a literature that uses the term "Tawny Negro"?
quote: And yes the term white moor came to be used as well
I have never seen the term "White moor." Can you produce the document that uses it?
quote: Also I submit to you one should not just make up things without showing the proof of it outside of Wikipedia or Stormfront or else one runs into problems.
I did not make up anything. I referenced wikipedia, which is fine for this particular scholarhsip. Wiki provides the scholarly work at the end in the bibliography section. Also, you did not provide any scholarship on your part. Can you cite your source for the definition you supplied for "Black-A-moor"? Please explain "Stormfront."
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posted
dana, there were three kinds of moors in literature; Black-a-moor, tawny-moor, and moor.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: According to your logic Haydn the composer and other Europeans were called blackaMoors because they were black Moors. Now how much sense does that make?
posted
Muhommed Abed Quote: - "I already know the moorish movement included Blacks. The blacks for the most part were conscripts. Also, blacks were the minority in moorish spain, as well as moorish north Africa."
YOU LET THIS IDIOT GET AWAY WITH THIS?? AFRICA - THE BIRTHPLACE OF THE BLACK MAN!!!
What a sad bunch you are.
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quote:Originally posted by Muhommed Abed: dana, there were three kinds of moors in literature; Black-a-moor, tawny-moor, and moor.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: According to your logic Haydn the composer and other Europeans were called blackaMoors because they were black Moors. Now how much sense does that make?
Maybe in the literature of th 14th century onwards yes. And moor mean Negro in Mozarabic Spain. LOOK IT UP!!!
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Muhommed Abed Quote: - "I already know the moorish movement included Blacks. The blacks for the most part were conscripts. Also, blacks were the minority in moorish spain, as well as moorish north Africa."
YOU LET THIS IDIOT GET AWAY WITH THIS?? AFRICA - THE BIRTHPLACE OF THE BLACK MAN!!!
What a sad bunch you are.
I guess he said that on another posting. He basically said I already know the Negro movement included blacks who were mostly conscripts.
Hopefully he's leearned something since then, or else must be one of those nationalists of some sort that use the name black for slaves. He can't conceive of the fact that early and pure Arabs were just Negroes of various types - not much different from the original Berbers, taking white slaves. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
dana you are the one making the claim and you are asking me to look it up?
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Maybe in the literature of th 14th century onwards yes. And moor mean Negro in Mozarabic Spain. LOOK IT UP!!!
quote:Originally posted by Muhommed Abed: I agree.
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: My beief is that there was a nice sized populations of Blacks they just became absorbed into the society. Lets say if alot of Black Berbers and other African came, The Moors took no wives from Africa so in time much of the population would have been mixed.
There were also large populations of Blacks in places like Mauritania and Morocco during this time.
My problem is racist like Fawal who think they are better than blacks and makes comments like: Yes I will agree with you on that definition of "Moor." But I do hope that you come to the realization that the "black" elements in Moorish society was negligible, outside of your odd slave or mercenary. ^^^ So according to him Blacks were only Slaves??
I want you are Fawal to prove Blacks were only Slaves...
This just proves to me that you're the typical low IQ black
I want to know where I insulted this dude for him to respond like that. This is the problem Afrocentrist are lebeled as the bad guys and yet almost every troll on here can not debate without resorting to Racial insults and induendos. I could care less what some Arab **** thinks about me I just bring it up becuase you nor your cohorts never seem to have a problem with White Racists only us Evil "Afrocentrics"(I don't consider myself Afrocentric although I appreach history from an African perspective).
This is why I have a problem with Islam. These Muslims here will in one breath say they are brothers to the Africans that adhere to their non-sense in the next breath claim blacks are savage, etc. At least the White Christian Racists are honest.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: My problem is racist like Fawal who think they are better than blacks and makes comments like: Yes I will agree with you on that definition of "Moor." But I do hope that you come to the realization that the "black" elements in Moorish society was negligible, outside of your odd slave or mercenary. ^^^ So according to him Blacks were only Slaves??
I want you are Fawal to prove Blacks were only Slaves...
This just proves to me that you're the typical low IQ black
I want to know where I insulted this dude for him to respond like that. This is the problem Afrocentrist are lebeled as the bad guys and yet almost every troll on here can not debate without resorting to Racial insults and induendos. I could care less what some Arab **** thinks about me I just bring it up becuase you nor your cohorts never seem to have a problem with White Racists only us Evil "Afrocentrics"(I don't consider myself Afrocentric although I appreach history from an African perspective).
This is why I have a problem with Islam. These Muslims here will in one breath say they are brothers to the Africans that adhere to their non-sense in the next breath claim blacks are savage, etc. At least the White Christian Racists are honest.
posted
Ivan Van Sertima in "Golden age of the Moor" page 55 mentioned primary sources that say some of the first Moors in Spain as being "Sudanese"
At the bottom of the same page like everything else I think Ivan Van Sertima was going off mistranslations when he got an exaggerated impression of the extent of "Arab" color prejudiced
posted
Islam itself was and is multi ethnic in composition. Therefore it should not be surprising that some of the oldest mosques in the world are not only found in Syria and Iraq, but also Europe, Africa and China. With that in mind, trying to pretend that Islam EVER was a single ethnic group is NON SENSE.
The Islamic invasion of Spain was led by officers of the Umayyad dynasty leading local Berber troops. Once they conquered Spain, they were joined by more officers of the Umayyad court and due to squabbles between the Berbers and their officers, there was much disunity. There were also allies of the Muslims in Spain as well, which included factions of the Visigoths who some say invited the Muslims to invade Spain.
The disunity in the Muslim camp caused Tariq, the leader of the Berbers and the Musa ibn Nasair, Leading officer of the Umayyads in North Africa, to be called back to Damascus. Musa was eventually disgraced while in Syria and his rank taken along with his booty. Back in Andalus, the disunity continued between the Berbers and the Umayyad officers.
After the Abbassid overthrow of the Umayyads, Andalus became nominally independent. And of course we know the rest of the story. In the early days of Islam, each dynasty was known for its distinct architectural and artistic traditions that many historians and archaeologists recognize. The Umayyads provided Islamic Spain with their stamp of artistic and decorative styles, including repeated palmiform stucco decoration the horseshoe arch and so forth. These styles were then modified with a touch of African and European innovation which made it unique to Al andalus. This was followed by traditions that were inherited probably from the Abbassids, including the multilobed arch, fortresses featuring rounded towers and other forms of artistic and stylistic convention.
Likewise, much of the intellectual scholarship of the time was centered in either Damascus or Baghdad either under the Umayyads or Abbassids. Eventually with the demise of these dynasties, the intellectual tradition was passed to Andalus. All of these traditions borrowed heavily from pre-existing traditions in Africa, Southern Europe, the Levant and Mesopotamia which enriched it considerably. In Al andalus, this included heavy influence from Africa with many various traditions in arts and trade that were fused to become the mark of AlAndalus.
Throughout the history of Al Andalus, Africans played a major role as soldiers. However, it was one that was marked by conflicts. Various sects within the Muslim community were constantly at odds for control. There were constant revolts and uprisings by Berbers in Spain and across North Africa due to their feeling of being treated as second class citizens under their Arab overlords. It is within this context that the Almoravid and Almohad periods are signifigant in that they represent undeniably African power and rule over large swaths of both Spain and North Africa.
The history of North Africa and Spain in the Medieval period is undeniably complex, full of treachery, deceit and intrigue. There are many terms that were used at the time to identify the various ethnic groups at play in the time. In Spain there were terms for Arabs, Berbers, mixed Arab Berbers, Mixed European Arab Berbers and various degrees of mixture in between. In fact, this idea of labeling people by mixture may have given rise to the Spanish and Portuguese tradition of labeling people by "mixture" in the areas they conquered throughout the world. Within this complex tapestry, the word Moor was a European term that was simply a reference to the skin color of those within the population of Muslim invaders that invaded Spain. It is NOT one of the terms used by the Muslims themselves and as such it originated as SIMPLY A SUPERFICIAL REFERENCE TO SKIN COLOR. Reading Islamic texts one will not find such a term used to refer to the various populations within the Islamic community of North Africa and Spain.
Therefore, being that the term originated among Europeans and was an unambiguous reference to skin color, the fact that some dispute it is a sure sign of denial and an attempt to deceive rather than educate. Not only is it an attempt to deny the obvious presence of blacks among the Islamic invaders, but it also tries to deny the presence of blacks in North Africa as natives in its most extreme form. Both of which are simply deceitful attempts to change history.
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posted
Islam forbade depictions of the human form and therefore there are not a lot of drawings of Muslims from the Islamic period in Spain. Those that do survive are only fragmentary and do not provide the evidence needed to confirm the ethnic make up of the Islamic population. The secure way to identify these populations is by the remains and through genetic testing, which has confirmed the large number of Africans among the Islamic populations of Spain.
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quote:Originally posted by Muhommed Abed: Where did I say Black moors were slaves?
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: My problem is racist like Fawal who think they are better than blacks and makes comments like: Yes I will agree with you on that definition of "Moor." But I do hope that you come to the realization that the "black" elements in Moorish society was negligible, outside of your odd slave or mercenary. ^^^ So according to him Blacks were only Slaves??
I want you are Fawal to prove Blacks were only Slaves...
This just proves to me that you're the typical low IQ black
I want to know where I insulted this dude for him to respond like that. This is the problem Afrocentrist are lebeled as the bad guys and yet almost every troll on here can not debate without resorting to Racial insults and induendos. I could care less what some Arab **** thinks about me I just bring it up becuase you nor your cohorts never seem to have a problem with White Racists only us Evil "Afrocentrics"(I don't consider myself Afrocentric although I appreach history from an African perspective).
This is why I have a problem with Islam. These Muslims here will in one breath say they are brothers to the Africans that adhere to their non-sense in the next breath claim blacks are savage, etc. At least the White Christian Racists are honest.
From my encounter with Muslims it seems that all blacks get credit for is being slaves?? It seems to me Blacks are rather insignifigant in Islamic society..which is why I expect Fawal's total disrespect toward me and other members on this board. Fawal is not the 1st and not the last. What is even more confusing is that alot of these Muslims spew racism and then in the next breath they seem more sympathetic and understanding...They will say blacks are Abed this and Abed that..Low I.Q this, Poke fun at African Adobe Mosques, then in the next breath say: "Blacks are generally well Liked In the Muslim World"-Peace be upon you my Brother.. Or my fav. "You Were Muslims before The White Man Enslaved You-Turn to your Roots my Brother- Sorry if I sound like Im putting words in your mouth but I honestly don't know what you Muslims feel
From my research there was a large role of Black Moors and they became absorbed into the population and part of Al Andalucian society..Mixed Race now. In some of the pics alot of the moors can arguably look Mixed Race-which according to the History, remember The Moors took wives from Iberia-would make sense
Also from my research the Moors were darker in Places like Mauritaunia and Morrocco and their decendants are still there...
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Islam forbade depictions of the human form and therefore there are not a lot of drawings of Muslims from the Islamic period in Spain. Those that do survive are only fragmentary and do not provide the evidence needed to confirm the ethnic make up of the Islamic population. The secure way to identify these populations is by the remains and through genetic testing, which has confirmed the large number of Africans among the Islamic populations of Spain.
Yes but the Spanish Muslims were VERY-VERY Liberal when it came to Islam. Why do you think the Almoravids and ESPECIALLY the Almohads were so violent and thus hated by the Iberian Muslims so much. I have even read that a large portion of the Iberian Muslims were drunkards I guess we can equate them as Luke Warm Muslims who changed the rules to fit their society-Kinda like Roman Catholics. I agree with you though I think those Images don't accuratly portray the Moors as a whole.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: From my encounter with Muslims it seems that all blacks get credit for is being slaves?? It seems to me Blacks are rather insignifigant in Islamic society..which is why I expect Fawal's total disrespect toward me and other members on this board. Fawal is not the 1st and not the last. What is even more confusing is that alot of these Muslims spew racism and then in the next breath they seem more sympathetic and understanding...They will say blacks are Abed this and Abed that..Low I.Q this, Poke fun at African Adobe Mosques
Jari-Ankhamun this kind of racism developed because of European colonialism. While there are ethnic conflicts all over the world you wouldn't expect certain people to have any specific animosity against "blacks"
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