quote:No true Scotsman is an informal logical fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion.[1] When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim, rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule.
The use of the term was advanced by philosopher Antony Flew:
Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the "Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again." Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing." The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, "No true Scotsman would do such a thing."[2]
When the statement "all A are B" is qualified like this to exclude those A which are not B, this is a form of begging the question; the conclusion is assumed by the definition of "true A".
Your thoughts? Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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quote:No. Its based on empirical observation. West Africans have a limited physical variation.
They are all wide nosed, nappy haired and prognathic. These traits are all uniformly present with no exception.
Just take a look at any anthropometric study.
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This silly effeminate fool--wouldn't even be looking at the upcoming Olympic Games to see Africans destroy the opposition in most track and field or see that the teams that fielded the most African players won both the EPL and the European CL--spends most of his being obsessed with Africans. Freud where are you?
Silly A-P, I live in West Africa. I see people all the time. You have never been to Africa but you are stupid enough to engage in mindless chatter about West Africans.
I have not been to China or Japan to make solid claims as to what the Chinese of Japanese really look like. I have read stuff about them but I have to be there to check any phenotypical description of them. As Herodotus did when he traveled to Egypt to observe the people there--and spoke with them eye-ball to eye-ball.
LOL--at how obsessive fanaticism drives individuals to hang on to false beliefs even in the face of direct empirical evidence.
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It's only when the set is bounded that one can make universal statements about its members. When the set is unbounded or open ended then one can rely on inductive inference based on relative frequencies.
Hamish McDonald's reaction should have been: "if true, the probability of such happening is extremely small--in the frequentist sense".
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Silly A-P, I live in West Africa. I see people all the time. You have never been to Africa but you are stupid enough to engage in mindless chatter about West Africans.
I have anthropometric studies, with sample sizes of thousands. In other words I have data on more people you see with your own eyes on a daily basis. No anthropometric study has ever revealed contrary to what I just posted. If you think they do - feel free to post them.
Posts: 1575 | From: - | Registered: May 2011
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My older threads have somehow survived, my 'Was jane Austen Black?' thread was murdered, annihilated. Why, and by who?
I regurlarly speak to a Fulani man in The Hague, and I always marvel at his mulatto looks. But now I understand the nrrow featured type is as West African als the wide nosed type.
The True Negro was invented to proof that the Black European Nobles were not Blacks, not 'Negro's'( a word I do not use but feel forced to use for clarities sake), but 'Black Caucasians.' They were thus whites, but with a black skin. I have collected nobles and kings who do show the 'True Negro' type. So even using their own science methods and means, we arrive again at Africans becoming the first Europeans, and some of them elevating themselves into European nobles.
Buchi Emecheta from Nigeria She talked about having the odds against her for not being Ibo, and not being a man.
Posts: 5454 | From: Holland | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Silly A-P, I live in West Africa. I see people all the time. You have never been to Africa but you are stupid enough to engage in mindless chatter about West Africans.
I have anthropometric studies, with sample sizes of thousands. In other words I have data on more people you see with your own eyes on a daily basis. No anthropometric study has ever revealed contrary to what I just posted. If you think they do - feel free to post them.
It doesn't matter. On a political basis, West, South, East and North Africans consider themselves Africans. Despite historical disputes there is enough commonality for all Africans to have common certain common interests in regard to other parts of the world. And other parts of the world consider people from Africa who have dark skin and ususally afros to be of the same race and this can be formed into political unities.
Posts: 42922 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Anthropometric studies on contentious--for white pseudoscientists--issues like "race" have to be checked and re-checked. There are some objective white scientists--though they mostly hedge on their bare-facts in the end as they desperately try to shift the goalposts--but they are opposed by those who peddle lies dressed up in statistic and other quantitative forms.
So try again dumbo.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Anthropometric studies on contentious--for white pseudoscientists--issues like "race" have to be checked and re-checked. There are some objective white scientists--though they mostly hedge on their bare-facts in the end as they desperately try to shift the goalposts--but they are opposed by those who peddle lies dressed up in statistic and other quantitative forms.
So try again dumbo.
It was indeed a bit on the funny side to read that dumb argument. I can't take someone like that seriously. Especially since I have posted pics of West Africans with maxillary, alveolar prognathic and reduced prognathism.
Last but not least, about 200+ million people are living in West Africa. To claim to know more about West African facial features, because of a few papers and Internet images, then someone who actually lives in West Africa and is seeing thousands of West Africans daily. It tells a lot about the mental contidions of that character. It's likely he lives in a village.lol
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Silly A-P, I live in West Africa. I see people all the time. You have never been to Africa but you are stupid enough to engage in mindless chatter about West Africans.
I have anthropometric studies, with sample sizes of thousands. In other words I have data on more people you see with your own eyes on a daily basis. No anthropometric study has ever revealed contrary to what I just posted. If you think they do - feel free to post them.
You dumbass you think your secondary accounts can compare to a Native of West Africa who has seen FAR MORE in their time there than researchers who are only there for a much shorter time?! Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Anglo_Pyramidologist: No. Its based on empirical observation. West Africans have a limited physical variation.
They are all wide nosed, nappy haired and prognathic. These traits are all uniformly present with no exception.
Just take a look at any anthropometric study.
Why do studies from people about a place you've never been trump actual experience from people in West Africa? And why are west Africans "true" negroes? The term "negro" never initially applied to people on strict basis of their hair or facial features. It is a true scotsman because racists created this concept of Negro, people who fit demonstrated the potential to exceed their expectations, and so a "true negro" was formed.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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A-P is simply parroting the nonsensical musings of Seligman and others who pushed the absurd concoction of "negroes" being differentially "Hamiticised" by invading "caucasians" from Asia.
According to Seligman the phenotypical traits of Africans--lips and noses--especially offered evidence of the extent of their "Hamiticisation".
For armchair anthropological dreamer Seligman West Africa was the only region of Africa with little or no Hamitic infusions--so as consequence it was the home of the "true negro".
All of this, of course, is absurd. The interesting empirical fact about Africa's populations is that phenotypical traits are very un-uniform and varied all over Africa.
According to Diop the concept of "true negro" was a fictional ideal type from other blacks diverged--in theory--all over Africa.
Scientific thinking must rely on logic and consistency above all. Therefore if there are "true negroes" there must also be "true whites[blancos] and "true yellows". In the latter case perhaps the "true yellow" would be the East Asian with the most developed epicanthic eye-fold, the roundest and flattest face, and buck-toothed prognathism. But such is never done in te antropological literature--armchair or otherwise.
The only exceptions were WWII caricatures of "grinning Japs[the language used then]" who had all the features of "true yellows" according to the logic "racial type" thinking. During WWII Jews were also portrayed using the same kind of caricature. The "true Jew" was portrayed as an individual who was short, thick-limbed, arched back, thick lips, curly hair, sallow skin, and a large flaring and heavily arched nose.
"True types" can be either seen as positive or negative. In the case of whites a negative "true white" type could have the phenotype of a Captain Hook of piracy fame or the generic "witch on the broomstick" that white children grow up with.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:I regurlarly speak to a Fulani man in The Hague, and I always marvel at his mulatto looks. But now I understand the nrrow featured type is as West African als the wide nosed type.
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Puzzled here. Why do you always marvel at his so-called mulatto looks? The point about the variances of African phenotypical traits has long been made on ES.
Would you marvel when you see a 6 foot 5 inches Wolof or Dinka or Masai next to a 5 foot Twi(pygmy) from the Congo?
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: For armchair anthropological dreamer Seligman West Africa was the only region of Africa with little or no Hamitic infusions--so as consequence it was the home of the "true negro".
Seligman was a field not armchair anthropologist. He was one of the first to collect detailed anthropometric measurements on living Veddahs in Sri Lanka. In regards to Africa, he led one of the earliest scientific expeditions in Sudan (1909) collecting racial data.
If you want an armchair anthropologist, that would be me. But you see Seligman et al did all the work so i didn't have too. I collect all their literature and got a degree in forensic anthropology to know more than the basics.
quote:All of this, of course, is absurd. The interesting empirical fact about Africa's populations is that phenotypical traits are very un-uniform and varied all over Africa.
Not at all true. All the variation is inter-regional, corresponding to discrete races. You don't get all the variation in one place. West Africans (Negroids) for example don't look anything like Caucasoid North Africans.
quote: Scientific thinking must rely on logic and consistency above all. Therefore if there are "true negroes" there must also be "true whites[blancos] and "true yellows". In the latter case perhaps the "true yellow" would be the East Asian with the most developed epicanthic eye-fold, the roundest and flattest face, and buck-toothed prognathism. But such is never done in te antropological literature--armchair or otherwise.
Yes there are ''true'' Caucasoids and ''true'' Mongoloids as well. These types are all uniform in morphology.
Its just you guys hate your nappy hair and broad Negroid traits, so you want to redefine your race to include heavily Caucasoid admixed people to claim their features.
Mongoloids and Caucasoids though don't have self-hatred like Negroids. Caucasoids are happy with their racial traits, we aren't trying to claim nappy hair and wide noses are ours... ''Blacks'' (Negroids) though self-hate their hair texture and facial features, so they will deny the ''true Negroid'' exists and delude themselves ''Blacks'' actually have Caucasoid features. Same old, same old. This has been oberved on this forum for years... its self-hatred, denial and delusion.
Posts: 1575 | From: - | Registered: May 2011
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You stupidass those "caucasoid" features are from Africa. You have no right to suggest through that term, that Africans got those features from Europeans. On the contrary YOU GOT THOSE TRAITS FROM AFRICANS! You are a subset of their diversity!
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
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You keep repeating the same nonsense over and over again. It's not an insult when you are called a dunce or a moron. Your thinking is never nuanced, never probing, never analytical just stupidly stuck in the past.
OK, if you are a dunce it's not my fault.
The Hamitic thing is bunk and you keep repeating.
In Africa, blacks marry each other all the time. They are not looking to go to Europe to find spouses. On the contrary white girls are always flocking over here for mates. I see them all the time proudly holding hands in the street with black Rasta boys. The older white women pay their boytoys' rents and buy them expensive vehicles.
White men with money flock on over here too to sell themselves to black girls with gifts of money, vehicles and property. When the white men return home the girls laugh and bring in their local lovers to share the goodies.
Maybe you know something else, but that's what I see. Clearly the blacks I know like themselves and visiting whites love them even more. So hooray for African features!
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Some researchers hold that Indo-EUropeans groups were more prominent practitioners, and even their gods and heroes show a taste for homosexuality. Middle Easterners also show a taste. According to researchers like Bruce Gerig:
Anal intercourse was freely pictured in figurative art in the ancient cities of Uruk, Assur, Babylon, and Susa from the 3rd millennium B.C. on – and images show that it was practiced as part of religious ritual. The Summa alu, a manual used to predict the future, sought to do this in some cases on the basis of sexual acts, five of which are homosexual.
Middle Eastern religion lent sanction to homosexuality. The gods of Mesopotamia for example create a male companion for Gilgamesh, the epic hero, a demigod, two thirds non-human. The male companion is named Enkidu, a wild, hairy man with “long tresses like those of a woman.” They have a long sexual relationship. In later legend, the goddess Ishtar, sees Gilgamesh wash his hair and let it down and desires him, but he refuses the goddess, preferring the male. Cult prostitution, involving heterosexual and homosexual acts, was found throughout ancient Near East history. The goddess Ishtar also had transvestites, etc tend to her worship rituals.
Also according to GErig- Middle Easterners had few qualms. UNlike the Egyptians, deities and gods were expected to partake, and had numerous homosexual priests and servitors as a routine, sanctioned practice in honor of the god or goddess
"Inanna/Ishtar was called a ‘hierodule’ (a divine sacred ‘prostitute’); and many male prostitutes, homosexual and transvestite, served her. Making love was a natural activity that should not be demeaned, they believed; and it could be practiced as one pleased as long as no third party was harmed or a prohibition was broken (such as the banning of sexual activity on certain days, and some women were reserved for the gods).28 In fact, William Naphy notes that a striking feature of the ancient Near East was “how few cultures seem to have any significant ‘moral’ concern about same-sex activities." --Gerig
Overall, the Egyptians seem more conservative than either the Greeks or "Middle Easterners" in these matters. Initiatory pederasty is not found in Egypt, as in GReece. As Gerig also writes- quote:
"Dominic Montserrat notes, most references from Egypt of the Pharaohs view homosexual acts as morally negative (non-reproductive), socially dangerous (like adultery), or physically violent (about conquest).. Parkinson notes that certainly “same-gender sexual acts, such as sodomy, took place in ancient Egypt” – and some individuals, then as now, probably had a greater tendency to this desire and these acts than others.74 However, for a man to abandon his “proper gender role” and allow himself to be sodomized was looked upon as a sign of weakness and disgrace, and the act of penetration was generally looked upon as one of power and conquest. We do not find “initiatory pederasty” (e.g. as in Greece), .. Vern Bullough notes that the mark of shame heaped upon the passive same-sex partner can also be seen in the statement made about Shu and Tefnet, two other gods, that “their abomination is for the hand of god to fall on them, and for the shade of the god to abuse them sexually. His seed shall not enter into them.” " --Homosexuality in Ancient Egypt, Bruce Gerig,
In contrast with the Middle East where homosexual prostitution took place in sacred temples, it was seldom found in Egypt. QUOTE:
"Yet, studying homosexuality in ancient Egypt is a difficult task. Not a single legal text has survived from ancient Egypt (in contrast to elsewhere in the ancient Near East); and no sure evidence points to cult prostitution taking root there (until the late Roman period). In fact, sexual intercourse was viewed as ritually defiling in sacred places... Parkinson notes that certainly “same-gender sexual acts, such as sodomy, took place in ancient Egypt” – and some individuals, then as now, probably had a greater tendency to this desire and these acts than others.74 However, for a man to abandon his “proper gender role” and allow himself to be sodomized was looked upon as a sign of weakness and disgrace, and the act of penetration was generally looked upon as one of power and conquest. We do not find “initiatory pederasty” (e.g. as in Greece)." --Gerig
1-- The Greeks institutionalized homosexual practices more, as opposed to mere tolerance of outliers. For example, the mighty Spartans institutionalized it as an integral part of their military training. Along long with the Spartans the famous 'Sacred Band" of Thebes was made of up 300 men joined in homosexual pairs- sleeping together and fighting together.
As regards the Spartans and others:
"..young boys between the ages of 6 and 16 were organized in 'packs' and 'herds' and placed under the supervision of young adult Spartans. This supervision was sometimes seen as surrogate fathering and one marker of its activity ".. was the institution of institutionalized pederasty. After the age of twelve, each Spartan teenager was expected to receive a young adult warrior as his lover."
--From: The Spartans: the world of the warrior-heroes of ancient Greece, from utopia to crisis and collapse Paul Cartledge, 2003.pg 69-70
1A-- The Greek institutionalization of homosexual activity was heavily focused on pederasty:
In the "Politics of Spartan Pederasty" in Homosexuality in the ancient world, pg 23, various documentation from the Spartan era ranges from rock-cut graffiti, to bronze figurines of decidedly masculine "girls", to depictions of anal copulation on drinking cups, to terracotta votive masks depicting unbearded 'Youth' and bearded adult 'Warriors' found in the sanctuary at Orthia. quote:
".. the evidence of Xenophon and Plutarch is sufficient to establish the important conclusion that pederasty in Sparta was institutionalised."
2-- The Greeks embraced homosexuality and it also appears frequently among their major gods, as part of the package, without any apparent moral censure. It was simply accepted that the major gods would get in their gay action.
For example, Mighty Poseidon took Pelops, the son of Tantalus, to Mt. Olympus as his paramour. Hermes, the Greek messenger and trickster often known as the “cunning deceiver was a lover of both men and women. Hermes had several sons including Pan, the horned satyr who loved both men and women (giving birth to the English word “pansexual”). Romans gave Hermes the name of Mercury, and both traditions considered him to have invented masturbation.
Apollo enjoyed male on male activity, tragically killing Hyacinth, his beloved male lad, in a discus-throwing accident.
Mighty Zeus was no shirker at the rear, as his relationship with human male Ganymede reveals. Ever generous, Zeus gave Ganymede’s father a golden grapevine and/or a pair of horses in exchange for raping his son.
White Zeus was no shirker at hindquarters. Here he kidnaps and prepares to sodomize the white youth Ganymede ...
3-- The Greeks seem to have embraced homosexual activity widely although with certain qualifications, such as disapproval of male prostitutes outside certain areas, etc etc.
FROM: Homosexuality in the ancient world - Page 80. Wayne R. Dynes, Stephen Donaldson - 1992 -
"One of the intriguing features of the Greeks is their active interest in homosexuality... Yet the adherents of this solution [a ritual of initiation] have not attempted an explanation pf this puzzling phenomenon and they have ignored the existence of Indo-European (henceforth: I-E) parallels." pg 49
pg 50: "The bachelors had recourse to sodomy, a practice which was not reprobated but was actually a custom of the country- and a custom in the true sense, i.e., fully sanctioned by male society and universally practised."
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According to researchers Blumfield and Raymond who have written several books on homosexuality, the Greeks embraced the practice in many aspects of +life, including in their militaries: --(Looking at gay and lesbian life, 1988, by Blumenfeld and Raymond: pg 153-179) QUOTE:
"It was not unusual for men to comment on the attractiveness of other men, or for them to express affection for one another. At least part of the reason for this fascination with physical attractiveness and sex is that the Greeks had developed into a culture that had a great deal of leisure time. They were not required to work constantly in order to survive. Blumenfeld and Raymond wrote: “Similarly, the Greek attitude toward sex was, for the most part, value-neutral. …And, though exclusive homosexuality was probably discouraged as a threat to the family, it was widely tolerated both for older men who had children and for younger men prior to marriage.” (Blumenfeld and Raymond 1988, 155)
The Greek military attitude toward homosexuality was that it brought a sense of comradeship. It was often believed that a person would fight harder to protect his unit if that unit included a lover or lovers. This unique form of male bonding is attributed by some to the greatness of the Greek military might. In spite of this encouragement of homosexual practices, the picture is different for those who were exclusively passive at anal sex. They were believed to be polluted, and to have become like women. Therefore, they were expelled from military service as untrustworthy.
Greek society only negatively defined homosexual activity when it was exclusive or related to prostitution by a citizen. In nearly every other instance, homosexual conduct was considered acceptable and practical. It was simply a way of enjoying the beauty and awesomeness of the male bodies that they revered so highly.
The attitude toward the family and education could have also played a role in the attitude toward homosexuality. The family was considered the basis for reproduction. Women were restricted in their sexual activity because they were needed in order to bear children. Men could have sex with either women or men, so long as they met their societal obligation to reproduce. This is probably why exclusive anal sex was prohibited. Catamites could not bear children for their partners.
Education was the responsibility of the teachers and philosophers. Girls were excluded from the education system that was designed to teach boys how to be men. The student was expected to respect and admire his teacher. The teacher was expected to gain the devotion and affection of his student. Therefore, homosexual conduct between a teacher and student was considered a valuable part of the education process. The family, on the other hand, was simply needed for procreation.
During the republic period, Cicero declared without challenge that there is nothing illegal about a man taking another to the country in order to enjoy his erotic sensual pleasures. Although one could easily have sex with his wife at home, a man in the baths, a prostitute in the brothel, and a slave in a dark corner, he would have only been criticized if he were not able to keep everything in its place."
--(Looking at gay and lesbian life, 1988, by Blumenfeld and Raymond: pg 153-179) ------------------------------------------------------------------
The Romans carried out extensive homosexual practice although "official" bans existed. Most of the bans did not object to the practices per se, but were primarily concerned about SOCIAL STATUS, such as when citizens were engaged in passive roles while being sodomized. Such roles were considered to belong to slaves or foreigners. As long as citizens exploited others in a passive role, Romans relished hindquarters action, as did some popular Roman deities.
Romans ascribed heroic aspects to some homosexual relations between military personnel. Nisus and Euryalus are a recognized heroic pair, with Nisus being an older mature man, while Euryalus is a teenager, not even shaving yet. Virgil endorses the homosexual relationship as "honorable, dignified and connected to central Roman values." This is in keeping with the general pattern of status-based Roman morality - - the more distinguished citizen sodomizes a more passive object, in this case not a slave, or foreigner but a youth. As long as status was maintained, many Romans found such pedarastic activity acceptable..
Roman rulers engaged in well known homosexual hookups
The well known homosexual relationship between the Emperor Hadrian and his lover Antinuous is famous, and upon the accidental death of the boy, the emperor had him deified. The cult of Antinous subsequently became the most popular of all cults in the Greek-speaking world. Some Roman writers also note the activities of the emperor Tiberius with very young boys, and the activities of such rulers as Commodus who rewarded his male lover with both money and priestly office. Court cases are documented involving forcible male on male rape and complaints about wild bachannalia where young men are exploited appear several times in Roman literature.
According to one scholar, the Romans were not unduly disturbed at pederasty as compared with adultery which they regarded in a much more severe light. The god Roman Priapus was a popular figure that swung with both men and women.
SUMMARY FROM: --Roman homosexuality By Craig A. Williams, 1999
[quote]:
"the first in-depth modern study of homosexuality in republican and Augustan Rome, brilliantly examines relevant literary and legal texts. She concludes that Roman homosexuality was not imported from Greece, was legal, and that master-slave sexual relations were its most socially acceptable expression. Lilja shows that the republican dramatist Plautus, for example, associated homosexuality with slavery, rather than with romance between citizens."
In Rome the main objection to homosexuality seemed to be against passive roles as regards males. Generally, Roman homosexuality was more strongly connected with superior and inferior social roles, even as Hellenization and tolerance of homosexuality increased and [quote]
"for this reason, Roman homosexuality never achieved the cultural idealization accorded pederasty in ancient Greece." --(Reader's guide to lesbian and gay studies, 2000, By Timothy F. Murphy)
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As regards the white Slavs, they were busy too: [quote}:
"Among Slavs, homosexuality attracted much less negative attention. When native Slavic codes mentioned homosexuality at all, they treated it as a sin no more serious - at worst- than adultery. Western European visitors to Russia in the sixteenth century commented derisively on the toleration of homosexual activity. In Slavic lands, unlike Western Europe, homosexuality remained an ecclesiastical offense, not subject to civil sanctions. Homosexual activity by women attracted little attention in canon law and was not heavily penalized.
In a similar way, the Slavs mitigated the harsh penalties of Byzantine canon law for another form of "unnatural" sex, bestiality.. The penalties in native Slavic codes placed bestiality among simple fornication, uncanonical divorce and martial sex after mass." --(Handbook of medieval sexuality By Vern L. Bullough) pg 340, 1996)
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Northern Europeans show extensive homosexual activity stretching back to ancient times as scholars note. QUOTE:
"The fourth-century A.D. Roman writer Ammianus Marcellinus described homosexual relationships between youth and adult warriors among the Taifali, a Germanic tribe related to the Goths.. Marcellinus became familiar with the Taifali when he was posted as a soldier in the region. Their youth, Marcellinus write, remained in these homosexual relationships until they became adults and had killed a boar or bear, a typical initiatory ordeal. Similar homosexual customs were described by the Roman historian Procopius in the sixth century A.D. among another German tribe, the Heruli.. homosexuality in the form of institutionalized pederasty of the sort described by Ammianis Marcellinus and Procopius is understood to have been the rule within the Germanic warrior societies.
Remarkably similar societies of unmarried warriors existed in Norse and Celtic society. The members of the Norse warrior societies also dedicated themselves to their god, Odin, dressed likewise in skins of wolves or bears and were said to fight with the furor f one possessed of the spirits of those animals.. Like the Germanic peoples, Celtic society was ruled by a warrior aristocracy supported by a farming peasantry.. While references by classical writers to homosexual relationship between Celtic warriors and youth are not detailed enough to be able to establish an initiatory construct, the pederastic relations that they described would almost certainly have occurred within the fianna, the principal social venue of the Celtic warriors. Indeed, given the close similarity of Celtic and Germanic tribal customs, and the well documented esteem of the Celts for male homosexuality, it would have been odd if the Celts did not practice a similar type of initiatory homosexuality.
The ancient writers leave no doubt as to the Celtic warriors; enthusiasm for homosexuality in general. According to Aristotle, the Celts held homosexuality in high esteem and publicly honored homosexual relations. Diodorus writes that despite the charm of Celtic women, the Celtic men: "long instead for the embrace of one of their own sex, lying on animal skins and tumbling around with a lover on either side. It is particularly surprising that they attach no value to either dignity or decency, offering their bodies to each other without further ado. This was not regarded as at all harmful: on the contrary, if they were rejected in their approaches, they felt insulted." Celtic youth evidently shared the attitudes of their elders. The Greek writer Strabo, described the young Celts of Gaul as "shamelessly generous with their boyish charms."
"..The lack if sexual inhibitions that the Celtic warriors displayed towards each other amid such an atmosphere of masculine eroticism suggests that homosexuality was not limited to pederastic relations, and that love between comrades was also a part of Celtic warrior life. In fact, it is warriors, not youth, whom Diodorus describes as "offering their bodies to each other without further ado." Such a relationship between warrior peers even appears in an Irish Celtic saga of the late first millennium." [ENDQUOTE] --Neill, James (2009). The origins and role of same-sex relations in human societies. Mcfarland: pp 120-131
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MORE ON THE GREEKS In ancient Greece homosexuality played an important role.
In ancient Greece homosexuality played an important role, as it did among other Indo-Europeans . QUOTE: "While little is known of the sexual practices of the Kassites, Hyksos or Aryans, that is not the case with the Greeks. The extent of the prevalence and social importance of homosexual behavior among the ancient Greeks is so thoroughly documented that it is possible to get a clear picture not only of the character of homosexual relationships in Greeks society, but the important role homosexuality played in that society.. the fragmentary glimpses we have of homosexual behavior among the other Indo-European peoples can be recognized as revealing a unified pattern of sexual customs and beliefs that seems to have prevailed among all the Indo-European ancestors of modern Europeans." --Neill, James (2009). The origins and role of same-sex relations in human societies. Mcfarland:
Pedophilia and homosexuality was common among the Spartans. Wives and male lovers were shared between Spartan men. Pederasty or use of youth for homosexual purposes was well established among the Spartans, Greeks and Cretans.
[quotes from various scholars:] "..young boys between the ages of 6 and 16 were organized in 'packs' and 'herds' and placed under the supervision of young adult Spartans. This supervision was sometimes seen as surrogate fathering and one marker of its activity ".. was the instutionalization of pederasty. After the age of twelve, each Spartan teenager was expected to receive a young adult warrior as his lover.. Punishment for various infractions such as suffering silently under discipline was sometimes made on the youth's older lover, for having failed to educate his beloved properly." --From: The Spartans: the world of the warrior-heroes of ancient Greece, from utopia to crisis and collapse Paul Cartledge, Overlook Press, 2003.pg 69-70
"Aspects of Spartan society conduced less to heterosexuality than to homosexuality. In his Laws, Plato wrote that homosexuality resulted from the (male) dining groups and from male nudity in gymnasia. Records of Sparta from the classical period seem to refer to homosexual boyfriends at least as often as to wives. particularly revealing, are some assertions by Xenophon on this subject." --From: Sparta By Michael Whitby. 2002. Taylor and Francis: p. 93
"Sparta too institutionalized homosexual relations between mature men and adolescent boys, as well as between adult women and girls.. many aspects of Spartan homosexuality and marriage customs point to tribal origins. Participation was mandatory for all youth of good character. There were ordeals- a common feature of tribal initiation.. Even after marriage, men lived in men's houses, not with their wives. Wives and male lovers were shared with age-mates." ---From: The construction of homosexuality. David F. Greenberg. University of Chicago Press. 1990. p.107 --------------------------
Both homosexuality and pedophilia were institutionalized among the Greeks per scholars: [quotes from various scholars:] FROM: Homosexuality in the ancient world - Page 80. Wayne R. Dynes, Stephen Donaldson - 1992 -
quotes from Dynes and Donaldson: "In short, I have no doubt that the evidence of Xenophon and Plutarch is sufficient to establish the important conclusion that pederasty in Sparta was institutionalised." In the "Politics of Spartan Pederasty" in Homosexuality in the ancient world, pg 23, various documentation from the Spartan era ranges from rock-cut graffiti, to bronze figurines of decidedly masculine "girls", to depictions of anal copulation on drinking cups, to terracotta votive masks depicting unbearded 'Youth' and bearded adult 'Warriors' found in the sanctuary at Orthia.".
Some historian argue that Greek homosexual activity had ritual significance in the form of the semen, being an agent representing martial excellence or prowess, imparted to the receiving male in the process of sodomy. The venue of the gymnasium also played a part. quotes from Dynes and Donaldson: "Next there is the point insisted upon by Plato's Athenian Laws (1.636b; cg. Theaer. 162b, 169ab), the role played by the gymnasia as hotbeds of homosexuality. The Spartans put a premium on gymnastic exercise, and if Thucydides (1.6.5) is to be believed, it was they who invented the customs of exercising stark naked and rubbing down with olive oil. In Sparta therefore the cult of the nude male body is likely to have been pushed to the extremes, as it is known to have been in other less gymnastic Greek cities.. None of these conditions favoring homosexuality is wholly peculiar to Spartan society, but their presence in combination suggests that the integration of institutionalised pederasty into the Agoge, whenever precisely it occurred, will at any rate, not have been awkward." pg 27
Yet others argue that the ties created by pederasty extended to the networks of influence and governance. "Pederasty, in other words, could have acted at Spartan in the age of Xenophon, as it certainly did in fourth-century Crete, as a means of recruiting the political elite," ---------------
Young females were also used in Spartan society as part of homosexual relations. Quote: "Plutarch relates that in Sparta, the noble women loved the girls. Also the academic philosopher Hagnon states: "Among the Spartans it was customary (viz for adult women) to have intercourse with girls before their marriage, as one did with boys." pg 292
Homosexuality was commonly recognized and accepted in Greece, and suggest a common pattern among Indo-European peoples. As one historian notes: "One of the intriguing features of the Greeks is their active interest in homosexuality... Yet the adherents of this solution [a ritual of initiation] have not attempted an explanation pf this puzzling phenomenon and they have ignored the existence of Indo-European (henceforth: I-E) parallels." pg 49
pg 50: "The bachelors had recourse to sodomy, a practice which was not reprobated but was actually a custom of the country- and a custom in the true sense, i.e., fully sanctioned by male society and universally practised."
Some ancient Greek scholars held that the Persians learned homosexuality from the Greeks ".. we pass straight on to the Persians. Our sources are divided as to whether they practiced pederasty or not. The latter view will be the more probably one, since the Zoroastrian writings tome and again strongly forbade pederasty. It is perhaps indicative for this attitude that Agesilaos, although strongly in love with the son of high-ranking Persian, refrains from any physical contact. On the other hand, the son of Pharnabazus is enamoured of a Greek boy, and the recurrence of the prohibitions of pederasty suggests that the Persians did not succeed in stopping the practice. Such discrepancy between theory and practice could elucidate the remark of Herodotus that the Persians learned pederasty from the Greeks." pg 282
Quotes from: Homosexuality in the ancient world - Page 80. Wayne R. Dynes, Stephen Donaldson-1992 -
Historian Charles Freeman's "The Greek Achievement" (1999) holds that homosexuality had an influential place in some Greek institutions. According to Freeman: [quote] ".. "The symposia provided the arena for much of this sexual activity. These were highly ritualized affairs whose origins lay in the banqueting halls of aristocratic warriors. The men were garlanded and reclined one or two to a couch around a central table.. there is little evidence that symposia were normally used to discuss politics. Rather the opposite; the longest conversation in Plato's Symposium is about the nature of homosexual love." (Freeman: pg 299, pg 283-304)
Other writers find similar prominence in Athens: "Male homosexuality was also a prominent feature of Classical Athens. It was widely practiced and tolerated. Athenian law disenfranchised a citizen who had prostituted his body to another male, but nothing was done to males who engaged in homosexual love with male prostitutes or other adult males for love or pleasure. The law did not eliminate male prostitution but ensured that male prostitutes would be foreigners, not Athenian citizens." -- Western Civilization: To 1500, Volume 1. Jackson J. Spielvogel. 2009. Cenage.
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More info on white "role models"..
FROM: Charles Freeman (2000) The Greek Achievement. Penguin ed. pg 111, 298-300 {QUOTES}
Prevalence of pederasty in Greece
"In general terms the [Greek] evidence suggests that when men are deprived of women by a late age of marriage, as they were in Athens, they formed liaisons with younger boys (a study of Renaissance Florence where a similar age gap existed found that homosexuality was more prevalent there than in Italian city states where the ages of couples on marriage were equal. In this sense, young boys acted as a substitute for women."
The famous Greek symposium was a locale for pederastic sex. History records that some Greek parents were disturbed by homosexual activity in the symposium involving their young male children
{QUOTES}
"Young boys would attend symposia as part of their initiation into society and the symposium could act as the setting for pederastic sex."
"there was always the fear that his manhood would be compromised by the encounter and some families employed a tutor to watch over their sons to keep them clear of pederastic sex."
Pg 111 "However, as Kenneth Dover has pointed out it is just at this time, the late seventh century, that overt homosexuality between men became an accepted part of Greek social life… ' A Greek who said 'I am in love' would not mind being asked 'with a boy'..
Homosexual initiation was common in Greek societies as seen in the practices of Crete and Sparta. Young boys were taken from home and used in homosexual activity with older men as part of the culture. In Sparta, homosexual practice was also reflected by wives dressing as young boys on their wedding night. {QUOTE}
"Such an initiation ceremony is recorded by the greographer Strabo (first century B.C.) in Crete where young boys were kidnapped, taken to a remote part of the country, and then kept there for two months. They were taught hunting, feasting and military skills with the context of some form of sexual relationship. IN other words, homosexual initiation was pat of the transition from youth to adulthood. In the messes of Sparta, homosexual activity was normal, while the warriors of fourth century Thebes, at one moment the best in Greece, were said to owe their cohesion to paired homosexual bonding. In Sparta, it was ritualized by a new wife dressing as a boy for her wedding night, and then as a woman thereafter."
SOme try to deny the homosexual activities of the Greeks by claiming that there was a "death penalty" for homosexuality in some Greek polities. But this is bogus. Homosexuality itself did not merit one worthy of death- to the contrary. Death was a penalty for forcible kidnapping and homosexual rape, or certain hiring out for homosexual activity and civic participation as a community member- such as a father hiring out his son as a homosexual prostitute, but as shown by the scholars above, the"symposium" man-boy format was considered consensual among the Greeks, not a forcible rape, or a forced prostitution scenario. In fact one of the same scholars addresses the death penalty saying:
"It was not the case that the law prescribed the death penalty for a male prostitute and for his client." Consensual activity was thus generally protected. Even in the cases of penalty, the execution of the actual sentence was in no way guaranteed, and it was layered with multiple provisions and qualifications.
Yet another scholar takes up the so-called "penalty" - noting the sense is vague in the Greek texts: QUOTE:"This is usually taken as an euphemism for the death penalty. But it is unlikely that the law carried any penalty beyond disenfranchisement." --T. Hubbard, Homosexuality in Greece and Rome, p 134
The clear fact is that multiple credible scholars who have studied the subject note that homosexuality was not only accepted but embraced as a high cultural ideal in the white Greek world. Noneof these scholars ever claim that it met with 100% approval of the populace. It didn't. Some opposition was based on status- the free citizen as passive participant, not on the action itself. The opposition is documented by the researchers above but so is the cultural appeal and lionization.
Different Greeks also had different standards. The Spartans for example had no "death penalty" just for homosexual activity. To the contrary they incorporated such practices directly into their military culture. Homosexual participation was mandatory for all youths in the Spartan military.
-------------------------------------- Indo-European tribal culture may have fostered homosexual practices from early times
"Even in the absence of cross-cousin marriage, relationships between a mother's brother and his sister's son were exceptionally affectionate - unlike father-son relationships, which tended to be cold and formal. Foster parentage was a common institution among the Indo-European peoples, and in many instances the foster father was a mother's brother. In ancient Iran, the mother's brother was called "upbringer" or "foster father." Vedic texts suggest that this was also true for the Indo-Aryans. Scattered evidence suggests that among the ancient Hittites, Greeks, Romans, Celts and Germans, mother's brothers were often foster parents. Under these circumstances, it would be natural for the foster parent to supervise initiation, and perhaps to ritually sodomize his ward, without supplying his own daughter as a wife."
"Archaeological evidence shows that c. 500BC, when they were founding the La Tene culture in France and the northern part of Switzerland.. the Celts esteemed homosexuality... Evidence that the Celtic love of warriors may have extended to the British Isles (which the Celts invaded c 200BC) can be found in the Irish saga Tain Bo Cuailnge.. The hero Cuchulain explains [as to his foster brother]
Fast friends, forest companions We made one bed and slept one sleep.."
Greek and Roman practice allowed legal male homosexual prostitutes, levied taxes on them, and the Romans even give them a special legal holiday- April 24
QUOTE: "Although the Athenians stigmatized prostitutes, they did not deprive them of all legal rights; according to Aiskhines,, prostitutes could go to court to collect from nonpaying customers. Patronizing prostitutes was considered perfectly acceptable, not shameful or illegal. Each year, the Athenian Council conformed a special tax on male prostitutes, suggesting that they were numerous enough to warrant attention as a source of revenue.
By all accounts, prostitutions flourished in Rome after the Second Punic War (218-201 BC), when wealth poured into into the city.. Brothels opened not only in Rome but also in large and medium sized towns throughout Italy. A reference in a public speech of the elder Cato to the high price of male prostitutes makes clear that only the affluent could indulge. Most male prostitutes were slaves owned by a procurer; however some prostitutes were freedmen or even free. Under Augustus the government began taxing male prostitutes, and also granted them a legal holiday- April 24. By the early empire, distinct active (exoleti) and passive (cinaedi) homosexual prostitutes were serving specialized client tastes.
Wealthy men had another homosexual outlet as well: their slaves. Although Athenian law barred salves from entering gymnasia (where many pederastic affairs were initiated), or from having affairs with free men, they were at the disposal of their owners.. in practice slaves who had been raped had few remedies. Roman slave owners could also use them for sexual purposes with impunity, and some kept sizable make harems."
--David Greenberg. 1990. The Construction of Homosexuality. p. 98-126 By David F. Greenberg
"The second century preacher Clement of Alexandria used divine pederasty as an indictment of Greek religion:
"For your gods did not abstain even from boys. One loved Hylas, another Hyacinthus, another Pelops, another Chrysippus, another Ganymedes. These are the gods your wives are to worship!" --^ Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks 2.28P T. Z. Lavine -
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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