posted
I am uploading all of the art from the "Book of Games." These, unlike many of the paintings that have been used as "proof" of Black Moors on this board, are actually contemporaneous with Moorish rule in Spain. For people like anguishofbeing, untruthcentric, Bob_01, et al, who are linguistically challenged, I will define contemporaneous. I must say, I was actually quite surprised, as I had expected there to have been a much larger Negroid population; but instead, in the entire book, I was only able to find two pages featuring Black Moors. Enjoy! Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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Of-course you didn't watch the lecture provided in the other thread now did you??... But never mind others sure the hell did...yeah except for the first one the rest or all Christians playing chest... and remeber folks every blackman was a Moor but not all Moors were actually Black.. Tanni-Moors and even white Moors we called them Christian converts.. Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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The Moors consisted of Berbers, Arabs, Southern Blacks and Native Iberians. Also the Native Iberians whom were lighter than the Africans and Arabs converted in mass
the Christians who embraced Islam became Mawali or Clients attached to an Arab tribe and as such, were thoroughly Arabized, adopting the Arab dress code, customs, and language
White Slavs were also present Among the Muwalladun were the free-born, enfranchised and slaves. A significant part of the Muwalladun was formed by freed slaves. These were the Saqaliba, or Slavs who became a very important social group in Al-Andalus during the 10th and 11th centuries. Upon adopting the ethnic name of their patrons, the emancipated slaves gradually forgot all about their own ethnic origin The Number of the Original Moors became out numbered.. Though the number of original "Moors" remained small, many native Iberian inhabitants converted to Islam. According to Ronald Segal,[17] some 5.6 million of Iberia's 7 million inhabitants were Muslim by 1200 CE, virtually all of them native inhabitants.
So again the Iberian Muslims were Moors becuase they Imbraced the culture not the Original Moors that set up Al-Andalus.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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You stupid, stupid, little White boy. The writer of the book was a king of two tiny White kingdoms in northern Spain, while the Moors held the entire peninsula.
Alphonso X's Book of Games (In Spanish: Libro de los Juegos" or "Libros del Axedrez, Dados et Tablas") It was commissioned between 1251 and 1282 A.D. by Alphonso X, King of Leon and Castile. It consist of 98 vellum pages bound in sheepskin and includes 150 color drawings.
Castile and León traces back to the historic kingdoms (or Crowns) of León and Castile. Together with other Christian Iberian kingdoms, the separate monarchies of Castile and León participated in the Reconquista, the reconquest of Iberia from the so-called Moors, its medieval Muslim rulers. Other kingdoms participating in the Reconquista were, first, Galicia, and later other kingdoms carved out of lands won back to Christendom over the centuries: the Kingdoms of Toledo, Badajoz, Seville and others.
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^^^ Mike111 The Moors were not all black there were Black Moors, Tawny Moors as Dr. Ivan Van Sertima calls them, and the eventual White Moor that would out number the original Moors at various times during the history of Al-Andalus..
Am J Phys Anthropol. 1996 Mar;99(3):413-28.
Cranial variation in the Iberian Peninsula and the Balearic Islands: inferences about the history of the population.
Fox et. al
A multivariate analysis of four prehistoric and nine historic populations from the Iberian Peninsula and Balearic Islands with large sample sizes (n > 30 individuals for the neurocranium and n > 15 for the facial skeleton) is presented, considering 874 male and 557 female skulls and using 20 craniometric measurements. Cluster analyses have been undertaken using the squared Euclidean distance as a measure of proximity and the average linkage between groups (UPGMA), and neighbor-joining algorithms as a branching method, and a bootstrap analysis was used to assess the robustness of the clustering topology. The study was complemented with a principal coordinate analysis and with the application of the Mantel test to measure the degree of correspondence between the information furnished by the female and the male samples. The analyses show that the main source of morphometric variability in the Iberian Peninsula is the Basque population. The second source of variation is provided by two populations (Muslims and Jews), different from the rest from an archaeological and cultural point of view, and can probably be attributed to influences from sub-Saharan Africa. The massive deportations of the Jews in 1492 and of the Moors between the 15th and 17th centuries may have erased this source of variability from the present population of the Iberian Peninsula. The remaining studied populations, including samples from Castile, Cantabria, Andalusia, Catalonia and Balearic Islands, are grouped together, showing a notable morphological homogeneity, despite their temporal and geographic heterogeneity. These results are in general agreement with those obtained in synthetic maps, by analyzing multiple genetic markers. In such studies, the Basque population is described as the main source of genetic variability, not only in the Iberian Peninsula, but also in Western Europe.
From A page on the Moors not being black: NOTE: It should be obvious at this point that Islam and the Islamic culture did NOT originate in Africa. However, that does not change the fact that at the time of the Moorish conquest, many black African Muslims participated in the invasion and or were actually ruling in Al Andalus at certain periods. The point is that the word MOOR is a reference to the black skin of many of the Islamic invaders, regardless of whether ALL of them were black or not. There are many Moors that could still be seen in North Africa and the Sahara at the turn of the century, who we often see in photos from the period. Today, Moors (as in BLACK African moors) are still in North Africa, however their numbers are greatly diminished since even the 1900s (see the book I posted earlier about morocco). It is hard to tell who is and isnt an indigenous North African Moor today, with all the descendants of slaves (African and European) as well as Arab, Jewish and other bloodlines in the area. In my opinion, the Tuaregs are a close link to the classical Moorish tradition.
Pics Moorish Men in Algeria-1899 Moors in Orentalist Art...
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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The book of games does not disprove the claim that the moors were Black. The book of games depicts white christians of Europe. If anything it dispels the myth that blacks ruled Europe as the moors. But it certainly does not disprove that the moors were Black.
From my studies and research, the moors consisted of Berbers, Arabs, and Blacks. The blacks were the minority in moorish society and were mainly conscripted into the military ranks; that was the predominant role they played. There were exceptions to this - some noted Black Africans who rose up in prominence in the moorish society.
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: ^^^ Mike111 The Moors were not all black there were Black Moors, Tawny Moors as Dr. Ivan Van Sertima calls them, and the eventual White Moor that would out number the original Moors at various times during the history of Al-Andalus..
Am J Phys Anthropol. 1996 Mar;99(3):413-28.
Cranial variation in the Iberian Peninsula and the Balearic Islands: inferences about the history of the population.
Fox et. al
A multivariate analysis of four prehistoric and nine historic populations from the Iberian Peninsula and Balearic Islands with large sample sizes (n > 30 individuals for the neurocranium and n > 15 for the facial skeleton) is presented, considering 874 male and 557 female skulls and using 20 craniometric measurements. Cluster analyses have been undertaken using the squared Euclidean distance as a measure of proximity and the average linkage between groups (UPGMA), and neighbor-joining algorithms as a branching method, and a bootstrap analysis was used to assess the robustness of the clustering topology. The study was complemented with a principal coordinate analysis and with the application of the Mantel test to measure the degree of correspondence between the information furnished by the female and the male samples. The analyses show that the main source of morphometric variability in the Iberian Peninsula is the Basque population. The second source of variation is provided by two populations (Muslims and Jews), different from the rest from an archaeological and cultural point of view, and can probably be attributed to influences from sub-Saharan Africa. The massive deportations of the Jews in 1492 and of the Moors between the 15th and 17th centuries may have erased this source of variability from the present population of the Iberian Peninsula. The remaining studied populations, including samples from Castile, Cantabria, Andalusia, Catalonia and Balearic Islands, are grouped together, showing a notable morphological homogeneity, despite their temporal and geographic heterogeneity. These results are in general agreement with those obtained in synthetic maps, by analyzing multiple genetic markers. In such studies, the Basque population is described as the main source of genetic variability, not only in the Iberian Peninsula, but also in Western Europe.
From A page on the Moors not being black: NOTE: It should be obvious at this point that Islam and the Islamic culture did NOT originate in Africa. However, that does not change the fact that at the time of the Moorish conquest, many black African Muslims participated in the invasion and or were actually ruling in Al Andalus at certain periods. The point is that the word MOOR is a reference to the black skin of many of the Islamic invaders, regardless of whether ALL of them were black or not. There are many Moors that could still be seen in North Africa and the Sahara at the turn of the century, who we often see in photos from the period. Today, Moors (as in BLACK African moors) are still in North Africa, however their numbers are greatly diminished since even the 1900s (see the book I posted earlier about morocco). It is hard to tell who is and isnt an indigenous North African Moor today, with all the descendants of slaves (African and European) as well as Arab, Jewish and other bloodlines in the area. In my opinion, the Tuaregs are a close link to the classical Moorish tradition.
Pics Moorish Men in Algeria-1899 Moors in Orentalist Art...
Just when exactly were any of those paintings done?! What part of contemporaneous do you not seem to understand?! This is the thing with you Afrocentrists, your beliefs are like a religion - based on blind faith and not facts. And when you are presented with the plain truth before your very eyes, you simply scream it down as being some great "Eurocentrist" conspiracy! Now the harsh reality is that the Moors by and large were not black. There were a few black African slaves and paid mercenaries, but that is the extent of it!Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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Fawal, most Muslims in Islamic Spain were native Europeans. The actual number of Moors among the population were a relative minority. European muslims in Spain were called Muladies not Moors.
The book of Chess depicts Christians and Muslims, some of whom were Moors. But again, this is a book of games not a book of all the types of Muslims in Spain. Care to point out any references to the word Moor in the work?
quote: The Spanish and Portuguese word muladi is derived from Arabic muwallad. The basic meaning of muwallad is a person of mixed ancestry, especially a descendant of an Arab and a non-Arab parent, who grew up among Arabs and was educated within the Arab-Islamic culture.
"Muladi" has been offered as one of the possible etimological origins of the still-current Spanish and Portuguese term "Mulato", denoting a person of mixed European and non-European ancestry.
Muwallad is derived from the root word WaLaD (direct Arabic transliteration: waw, lam, dal). Walad means, "descendant, offspring, scion; child; son; boy; young animal, young one." Muwallad referred to the offspring of Arab men and foreign, non-Arab women. The term muwalladin is used in Arabic up to this day to describe the children between Arab fathers and foreign mothers.
According to Dozy, however, Muwallad means "anyone who, without being of Arab origin, is born among the Arabs and has been raised as an Arab". The word, then, does not necessarily imply Arab ancestry, either paternal or maternal.
According to Bernards and Nawas, the plural form of the word seems to be restricted to al-Andalus, almost exclusively to the areas of Mérida, Granada, Seville and Jaen.
In Islamic history muwalladun designates in a broader sense non-Arab neo-Muslims or the descendants of converts. In the Muslim-ruled parts of the Iberian Peninsula, parts of the indigenous until-then Christian population (basically a mixture of the pre-Roman peoples of the Iberian Peninsula, ancient Romans, Visigoths and Suebi) converted to Islam in the 8th and 9th centuries. In the 10th century a massive conversion of Christians took place, so that muladies comprised the majority of the population of Al-Andalus by the century's end. However, the majority of Muwallads had embraced Islam early, but retained many pre-Islamic customs and characteristics.
Conversion to Islam was encouraged by the Ummayad caliphs and Emirs of Córdoba. Many Christians converted to Islam to avoid the Jizya tax which they were subjected to as Dhimmis.[4] Conversion to Islam also opened up new horizons to the native Christians, alleviated their social position, ensured better living conditions, and broadened scope for more technically skilled and advanced work. Apostasy, however, for one who had been raised as a Muslim or had embraced Islam, was a crime punishable by death.[5]
The Christians who embraced Islam became Mawali or Clients attached to an Arab tribe and as such, were thoroughly Arabized, adopting the Arab dress code, customs, and language.[6]
The Muwallads were also referred to as Muslima (Islamized), and elches (ilj,pl ulus), as a reference to the society from which they sprang, and also came to be referred to as Aljamiados, as a reference to their non Arabic-tongue, the term having particular reference to Persian.
Through the cultural Arabization of muladies and their increasing inter-marriage with the small number of Berbers and Arabs present in Iberia, the distinctions between the different Muslim groups became increasingly blurred in the 11th and 12th centuries. The populations mixed with such rapidity that it was soon impossible to distinguish ethnically the elements of foreign origin from the natives. Therefore, they merged into a more homogeneous group of Andalusi Arabs generally also called Moors.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Fawal, most Muslims in Islamic Spain were native Europeans. The actual number of Moors among the population were a relative minority. European muslims in Spain were called Muladies not Moors.
The book of Chess depicts Christians and Muslims, some of whom were Moors. But again, this is a book of games not a book of all the types of Muslims in Spain. Care to point out any references to the word Moor in the work?
quote: The Spanish and Portuguese word muladi is derived from Arabic muwallad. The basic meaning of muwallad is a person of mixed ancestry, especially a descendant of an Arab and a non-Arab parent, who grew up among Arabs and was educated within the Arab-Islamic culture.
"Muladi" has been offered as one of the possible etimological origins of the still-current Spanish and Portuguese term "Mulato", denoting a person of mixed European and non-European ancestry.
Muwallad is derived from the root word WaLaD (direct Arabic transliteration: waw, lam, dal). Walad means, "descendant, offspring, scion; child; son; boy; young animal, young one." Muwallad referred to the offspring of Arab men and foreign, non-Arab women. The term muwalladin is used in Arabic up to this day to describe the children between Arab fathers and foreign mothers.
According to Dozy, however, Muwallad means "anyone who, without being of Arab origin, is born among the Arabs and has been raised as an Arab". The word, then, does not necessarily imply Arab ancestry, either paternal or maternal.
According to Bernards and Nawas, the plural form of the word seems to be restricted to al-Andalus, almost exclusively to the areas of Mérida, Granada, Seville and Jaen.
In Islamic history muwalladun designates in a broader sense non-Arab neo-Muslims or the descendants of converts. In the Muslim-ruled parts of the Iberian Peninsula, parts of the indigenous until-then Christian population (basically a mixture of the pre-Roman peoples of the Iberian Peninsula, ancient Romans, Visigoths and Suebi) converted to Islam in the 8th and 9th centuries. In the 10th century a massive conversion of Christians took place, so that muladies comprised the majority of the population of Al-Andalus by the century's end. However, the majority of Muwallads had embraced Islam early, but retained many pre-Islamic customs and characteristics.
Conversion to Islam was encouraged by the Ummayad caliphs and Emirs of Córdoba. Many Christians converted to Islam to avoid the Jizya tax which they were subjected to as Dhimmis.[4] Conversion to Islam also opened up new horizons to the native Christians, alleviated their social position, ensured better living conditions, and broadened scope for more technically skilled and advanced work. Apostasy, however, for one who had been raised as a Muslim or had embraced Islam, was a crime punishable by death.[5]
The Christians who embraced Islam became Mawali or Clients attached to an Arab tribe and as such, were thoroughly Arabized, adopting the Arab dress code, customs, and language.[6]
The Muwallads were also referred to as Muslima (Islamized), and elches (ilj,pl ulus), as a reference to the society from which they sprang, and also came to be referred to as Aljamiados, as a reference to their non Arabic-tongue, the term having particular reference to Persian.
Through the cultural Arabization of muladies and their increasing inter-marriage with the small number of Berbers and Arabs present in Iberia, the distinctions between the different Muslim groups became increasingly blurred in the 11th and 12th centuries. The populations mixed with such rapidity that it was soon impossible to distinguish ethnically the elements of foreign origin from the natives. Therefore, they merged into a more homogeneous group of Andalusi Arabs generally also called Moors.
Anyway, where in that whole series of images is there any reference to the word Moor associated with the image?
Seems easy enough.
Doug, you all expect people to believe that Black Africans made up a sizable proportion of the Moorish population. Just were exactly are all these images of Black Moors that date to the Andalusian Period?
Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: ^^^ Mike111 The Moors were not all black there were Black Moors, Tawny Moors as Dr. Ivan Van Sertima calls them, and the eventual White Moor that would out number the original Moors at various times during the history of Al-Andalus..
Am J Phys Anthropol. 1996 Mar;99(3):413-28.
Cranial variation in the Iberian Peninsula and the Balearic Islands: inferences about the history of the population.
Fox et. al
A multivariate analysis of four prehistoric and nine historic populations from the Iberian Peninsula and Balearic Islands with large sample sizes (n > 30 individuals for the neurocranium and n > 15 for the facial skeleton) is presented, considering 874 male and 557 female skulls and using 20 craniometric measurements. Cluster analyses have been undertaken using the squared Euclidean distance as a measure of proximity and the average linkage between groups (UPGMA), and neighbor-joining algorithms as a branching method, and a bootstrap analysis was used to assess the robustness of the clustering topology. The study was complemented with a principal coordinate analysis and with the application of the Mantel test to measure the degree of correspondence between the information furnished by the female and the male samples. The analyses show that the main source of morphometric variability in the Iberian Peninsula is the Basque population. The second source of variation is provided by two populations (Muslims and Jews), different from the rest from an archaeological and cultural point of view, and can probably be attributed to influences from sub-Saharan Africa. The massive deportations of the Jews in 1492 and of the Moors between the 15th and 17th centuries may have erased this source of variability from the present population of the Iberian Peninsula. The remaining studied populations, including samples from Castile, Cantabria, Andalusia, Catalonia and Balearic Islands, are grouped together, showing a notable morphological homogeneity, despite their temporal and geographic heterogeneity. These results are in general agreement with those obtained in synthetic maps, by analyzing multiple genetic markers. In such studies, the Basque population is described as the main source of genetic variability, not only in the Iberian Peninsula, but also in Western Europe.
From A page on the Moors not being black: NOTE: It should be obvious at this point that Islam and the Islamic culture did NOT originate in Africa. However, that does not change the fact that at the time of the Moorish conquest, many black African Muslims participated in the invasion and or were actually ruling in Al Andalus at certain periods. The point is that the word MOOR is a reference to the black skin of many of the Islamic invaders, regardless of whether ALL of them were black or not. There are many Moors that could still be seen in North Africa and the Sahara at the turn of the century, who we often see in photos from the period. Today, Moors (as in BLACK African moors) are still in North Africa, however their numbers are greatly diminished since even the 1900s (see the book I posted earlier about morocco). It is hard to tell who is and isnt an indigenous North African Moor today, with all the descendants of slaves (African and European) as well as Arab, Jewish and other bloodlines in the area. In my opinion, the Tuaregs are a close link to the classical Moorish tradition.
Pics Moorish Men in Algeria-1899 Moors in Orentalist Art...
Just when exactly were any of those paintings done?! What part of contemporaneous do you not seem to understand?! This is the thing with you Afrocentrists, your beliefs are like a religion - based on blind faith and not facts. And when you are presented with the plain truth before your very eyes, you simply scream it down as being some great "Eurocentrist" conspiracy! Now the harsh reality is that the Moors by and large were not black. There were a few black African slaves and paid mercenaries, but that is the extent of it!
LOL, these paintings are of Moors in Africa and around the world. They are authentic. Your stupid Eurocentric ass still can not adress the fact that the Iberian Muwalludun Moors eventually greatly outnumbered the Original Moors that set up shop in Al-Andalus. The Moors were a coalition of Blacks, Arabs, Berbers and Native Iberians and has been said many time on this forum.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Jari-Ankhamun - Please do not quote me the White mans Bullsh1t. I research history JUST so I won't be fooled by nonsense like this.
Jari-Ankhamun Quote: Mike111 The Moors were not all black there were Black Moors, Tawny Moors as Dr. Ivan Van Sertima calls them, and the eventual White Moor that would out number the original Moors at various times during the history of Al-Andalus..
YES: there DID come a time when there were mixed-race and even Whites who called themselves Moors - But if you don't understand how that works, you might want to have a conversation with your parents.
Better yet, I will show you!
One really "DARK" skinned Black man
.
Plus one really "White" skinned Turkish woman (imported from Asia as a Harem Slave).
.
Equals one "Light" skinned Moor king.
The Moor King, part of the fresco "Assumption of the Virgin, Musician Angels, Magus Balthazar, The Adoration of the Magi, Procession of the Magi" Gaudenzio Ferrari 1544-1545
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Moor in the Moors that refutes any idea of White Moorish Origin..
Procopius a 6th Century Byzantine historian, says the Moors (Maurusioi) were a people composed of dark-skinned tribes who had gained domination over all of North Africa after the decline of the Vandals who had gained control of the region briefly following the fall of Rome.
In the 13th century, the Spanish monarch Alfonso X described the Moors as follows: All the Moorish soldiers were dressed in silk and black wool that had been forcibly acquired their faces were like pitch and the most handsome of them was like a cooking pan.
The Chanson of Roland states that the Moorish army was 50,000 strong and led by Marganice, Emperor of Ethiopia and Carthage. Their most valiant figure is described as Abisme (probably a derivative of, Abyssinian), who (verse 126) is described as black as melted pitch. In this epic, the Moors are called Sarrazins, in English, Saracens.
The four Moorish kings killed in battle by Pedro VIII, king of Aragon, on November 18, 1096, who were depicted in the official coat of arms of Aragon, are shown as Black Africans kings. See Biblioteca de escritores aragoneses. Blancas. Comentarios de las cosas de Aragon. Seccion histor. 3, p. 110. 1878.
11th century – “The Berber women are from the island of Barbara, which is between the west and the south. Their color is mostly black though some pale ones can be found among them. If you can find one whose mother is of Kutama, whose father is of Sanhaja, and whose origin is Masmuda, then you will find her naturally inclined to obedience and loyalty in all matters, active in service, suited both to motherhood and to pleasure, for they are the most solicitous in caring for their children. “ 11th century the Christian Iraqi physician Ibn Butlan quoted by historian Bernard Lewis.
11th century – Nasr i Khusrau, an Iranian ruler described the Masmuda soldiers of the Fatimid dynasty as “black Africans”. See Yaacov Lev, “Army, Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt, 358-487/968-1094″, International Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, 19.3 (1987) p. 342.
13th century – Primary Cronica General of Alphonso X of Spain describes the 300 Almoravid “Amazon” women whose leader is described as black and Moorish. They were “led by their leader Nugaymath al-Tarqiyya (the “star of the Tuareg archers” in Arabic) who led the Almoravid siege of Valencia”; cited in Nubian Queens in the Nile Valley by Carolyn Fluehr-Lobban, Ninth International Conference of Nubian Studies, Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, USA. See also The Berbers in Arab Literature by H.T. Norris 1982.p. 20. Harvey , L.P. “Nugaymath Turquia, Primera Cronica General, Chapter 956” Journal of Semitic Studies 13, no. 2:232. Targiyyat or Targiya is a variant form or pronunciation in North Africa for the name Tuareg. 13th or 14th century Abu Shama, a Syrian, described the Masmuda Berbers as “blacks” in his, Kitab al-Ravdatayn. Found in Golden Age of the Moor, 1991 edition p. 57, edited by Dr. Ivan Van Sertima.
14th – The Almoravid or Al Murabitun dynasty coming from the Atlas was one of the last dynasties coming from Africa to rule in the Iberian peninsula. One of the 11th century rulers of Andalusia and North Africa was Yusuf Tachfin who had come from a long line of miltary rulers. According to “Roudh el-Kartas” (History of the Rulers of Morocco) by Abd Allah, and A.Beaumier’s French translation of the 14th century work, Yusuf was of “brown color”, of “middle height” with , “ thin, little beard, soft voice” and “woolly hair”. The Almoravid dynasty was supposedly composed mainly of Sanhaja clans of Massufa, Joddala (Gaetuli) and Lamtuna (or Auelimidden Tuareg)- the Auelamidden have since moved southward and live in Niger.Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: ^^^ Mike111 The Moors were not all black there were Black Moors, Tawny Moors as Dr. Ivan Van Sertima calls them, and the eventual White Moor that would out number the original Moors at various times during the history of Al-Andalus..
Am J Phys Anthropol. 1996 Mar;99(3):413-28.
Cranial variation in the Iberian Peninsula and the Balearic Islands: inferences about the history of the population.
Fox et. al
A multivariate analysis of four prehistoric and nine historic populations from the Iberian Peninsula and Balearic Islands with large sample sizes (n > 30 individuals for the neurocranium and n > 15 for the facial skeleton) is presented, considering 874 male and 557 female skulls and using 20 craniometric measurements. Cluster analyses have been undertaken using the squared Euclidean distance as a measure of proximity and the average linkage between groups (UPGMA), and neighbor-joining algorithms as a branching method, and a bootstrap analysis was used to assess the robustness of the clustering topology. The study was complemented with a principal coordinate analysis and with the application of the Mantel test to measure the degree of correspondence between the information furnished by the female and the male samples. The analyses show that the main source of morphometric variability in the Iberian Peninsula is the Basque population. The second source of variation is provided by two populations (Muslims and Jews), different from the rest from an archaeological and cultural point of view, and can probably be attributed to influences from sub-Saharan Africa. The massive deportations of the Jews in 1492 and of the Moors between the 15th and 17th centuries may have erased this source of variability from the present population of the Iberian Peninsula. The remaining studied populations, including samples from Castile, Cantabria, Andalusia, Catalonia and Balearic Islands, are grouped together, showing a notable morphological homogeneity, despite their temporal and geographic heterogeneity. These results are in general agreement with those obtained in synthetic maps, by analyzing multiple genetic markers. In such studies, the Basque population is described as the main source of genetic variability, not only in the Iberian Peninsula, but also in Western Europe.
From A page on the Moors not being black: NOTE: It should be obvious at this point that Islam and the Islamic culture did NOT originate in Africa. However, that does not change the fact that at the time of the Moorish conquest, many black African Muslims participated in the invasion and or were actually ruling in Al Andalus at certain periods. The point is that the word MOOR is a reference to the black skin of many of the Islamic invaders, regardless of whether ALL of them were black or not. There are many Moors that could still be seen in North Africa and the Sahara at the turn of the century, who we often see in photos from the period. Today, Moors (as in BLACK African moors) are still in North Africa, however their numbers are greatly diminished since even the 1900s (see the book I posted earlier about morocco). It is hard to tell who is and isnt an indigenous North African Moor today, with all the descendants of slaves (African and European) as well as Arab, Jewish and other bloodlines in the area. In my opinion, the Tuaregs are a close link to the classical Moorish tradition.
Pics Moorish Men in Algeria-1899 Moors in Orentalist Art...
Just when exactly were any of those paintings done?! What part of contemporaneous do you not seem to understand?! This is the thing with you Afrocentrists, your beliefs are like a religion - based on blind faith and not facts. And when you are presented with the plain truth before your very eyes, you simply scream it down as being some great "Eurocentrist" conspiracy! Now the harsh reality is that the Moors by and large were not black. There were a few black African slaves and paid mercenaries, but that is the extent of it!
LOL, these paintings are of Moors in Africa and around the world. They are authentic. Your stupid Eurocentric ass still can not adress the fact that the Iberian Muwalludun Moors eventually greatly outnumbered the Original Moors that set up shop in Al-Andalus. The Moors were a coalition of Blacks, Arabs, Berbers and Native Iberians and has been said many time on this forum.
Oh my God! Ad Hominems galore! Just what evidence do you have that Black Africans accounted for a sizable proprotion of the "original Moors?" Those paintings that you provided were produced hundreds of years after the fall of Al-Andaluse; meanwhile just about every image that we currently have of the Moors that date to that period show them to be primarily Caucasians and not Negroes. Do you see how silly your entire argument seems?
Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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Dough M Quote: Fawal, most Muslims in Islamic Spain were native Europeans. The actual number of Moors among the population were a relative minority. European muslims in Spain were called Muladies not Moors.
No they were NOT; The original people of Iberia were Black Gauls. The Whites were Visigoths (Western Goths): Who were one of two main branches of the Goths, an east Germanic tribe from Asia, who over the period of only one hundred years, had migrated from eastern Europe, thru Greece, thru Italy, and finally down into the Iberian peninsula.Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Jari-Ankhamun - Please do not quote me the White mans Bullsh1t. I research history JUST so I won't be fooled by nonsense like this.
Jari-Ankhamun Quote: Mike111 The Moors were not all black there were Black Moors, Tawny Moors as Dr. Ivan Van Sertima calls them, and the eventual White Moor that would out number the original Moors at various times during the history of Al-Andalus..
YES: there DID come a time when there were mixed-race and even Whites who called themselves Moors - But if you don't understand how that works, you might want to have a conversation with your parents.
Better yet, I will show you!
One really "DARK" skinned Black man
.
Plus one really "White" skinned Turkish woman (imported from Asia as a Harem Slave).
.
Equals one "Light" skinned Moor king.
The Moor King, part of the fresco "Assumption of the Virgin, Musician Angels, Magus Balthazar, The Adoration of the Magi, Procession of the Magi" Gaudenzio Ferrari 1544-1545
NONE of those paintings that you provided date to the Andalusian Period. All you all can do is to kick and scream like a putz, and shout it down as being a "fake," just because you don't want to accept the reality. Pathetic! Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Dough M Quote: Fawal, most Muslims in Islamic Spain were native Europeans. The actual number of Moors among the population were a relative minority. European muslims in Spain were called Muladies not Moors.
No they were NOT; The original people of Iberia were Black Gauls. The Whites were Visigoths (Western Goths): Who were one of two main branches of the Goths, an east Germanic tribe from Asia, who over the period of only one hundred years, had migrated from eastern Europe, thru Greece, thru Italy, and finally down into the Iberian peninsula.
Oh my God! Somebody get this guy a straight jacket and stat! Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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When Savariz saw this misfortune of the Romans, how great their sorrow that of ten thousand men were left no more but sixty men and twelve. And when he saw this misfortune, he turned homeward. By then he found the gate shut by the Saracens that had won it. He met Astrogote. He had a head as a boar, black and dark, and a great mace as strong as steel. He smote Savariz, who fell dead to the ground. This Astrogote of Ethiopia was a king of great strength. There were none in Europe so strong and so long. I think he was a devil’s son, of Beelzebub’s line. He caused Christian men great pain. When tidings came to the Pope that Duke Savariz was slain, all his hope turned to woe. [URL=http://ksumail.kennesaw.edu/~bstevens/Sultan.htm ]web page[/URL]
The Song of Roland
Their martyrdom, his men's, Marsile has seen, So he bids sound his horns and his buccines; 1630 Then canters forth with all his great army. Canters before a Sarrazin, Abisme, More felon none was in that company; Cankered with guile and every felony, He fears not God, the Son of Saint Mary; 1635 Black is that man as molten pitch that seethes; Better he loves murder and treachery Than to have all the gold of Galicie; Never has man beheld him sport for glee; Yet vassalage he's shown, and great folly, 1640 So is he dear to th' felon king Marsile; Dragon he bears, to which his tribe rally. That Archbishop could never love him, he; Seeing him there, to strike he's very keen, Within himself he says all quietly: 1645 "This Sarrazin great heretick meseems, Rather I'ld die, than not slay him clean, Neer did I love coward nor cowardice."
Orkneyinga saga
Moors vs Vikings
Once both parties were on board there was fierce fighting,the people on the Dromond being Saracens,whom we called infdels of Mohammed, among them a good many black men,who put up a strong resistance.
Earling,honored aimer of spears,eagerly advanced toward the vassel in victory,with banners of blood;the black worriors,brave lads we captured or killed,crimsoning our blades,busey with this Dromond business our blades we bloodied on the blacks.
“Grieve not at this, poor wretch, and with thine own hand give thy wife the potion whatever is be for did she choose to bear her leaping children in her womb thou wouldst, perchance, become the sire of an Ethiop, a blackamoor would soon be your sole heir.”
- Juvenal, Satire VI, lines 596 – 600
“One of them, with wooly hair, like a Moor, seems to be the son of Santra, the cook. The second, with a flat nose and thick lips, is the image of Pannicus, the wrestler . . . of the two daughters, one is black . . . and belongs to Crotus, the flute player.”
- Martial, VI, 39.
“When tired of each noblest matron, (Gildo) hands her over to the Moors. These Sidonian mothers, married in Carthage City, must needs be mate with barbarians. He thrusts upon me an Ethiopian son-in-law. This hideous hybrid affects the cradle.” Claudian.
Who's u daddy... Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Fawal, most Muslims in Islamic Spain were native Europeans. The actual number of Moors among the population were a relative minority. European muslims in Spain were called Muladies not Moors.
The book of Chess depicts Christians and Muslims, some of whom were Moors. But again, this is a book of games not a book of all the types of Muslims in Spain. Care to point out any references to the word Moor in the work?
quote: The Spanish and Portuguese word muladi is derived from Arabic muwallad. The basic meaning of muwallad is a person of mixed ancestry, especially a descendant of an Arab and a non-Arab parent, who grew up among Arabs and was educated within the Arab-Islamic culture.
"Muladi" has been offered as one of the possible etimological origins of the still-current Spanish and Portuguese term "Mulato", denoting a person of mixed European and non-European ancestry.
Muwallad is derived from the root word WaLaD (direct Arabic transliteration: waw, lam, dal). Walad means, "descendant, offspring, scion; child; son; boy; young animal, young one." Muwallad referred to the offspring of Arab men and foreign, non-Arab women. The term muwalladin is used in Arabic up to this day to describe the children between Arab fathers and foreign mothers.
According to Dozy, however, Muwallad means "anyone who, without being of Arab origin, is born among the Arabs and has been raised as an Arab". The word, then, does not necessarily imply Arab ancestry, either paternal or maternal.
According to Bernards and Nawas, the plural form of the word seems to be restricted to al-Andalus, almost exclusively to the areas of Mérida, Granada, Seville and Jaen.
In Islamic history muwalladun designates in a broader sense non-Arab neo-Muslims or the descendants of converts. In the Muslim-ruled parts of the Iberian Peninsula, parts of the indigenous until-then Christian population (basically a mixture of the pre-Roman peoples of the Iberian Peninsula, ancient Romans, Visigoths and Suebi) converted to Islam in the 8th and 9th centuries. In the 10th century a massive conversion of Christians took place, so that muladies comprised the majority of the population of Al-Andalus by the century's end. However, the majority of Muwallads had embraced Islam early, but retained many pre-Islamic customs and characteristics.
Conversion to Islam was encouraged by the Ummayad caliphs and Emirs of Córdoba. Many Christians converted to Islam to avoid the Jizya tax which they were subjected to as Dhimmis.[4] Conversion to Islam also opened up new horizons to the native Christians, alleviated their social position, ensured better living conditions, and broadened scope for more technically skilled and advanced work. Apostasy, however, for one who had been raised as a Muslim or had embraced Islam, was a crime punishable by death.[5]
The Christians who embraced Islam became Mawali or Clients attached to an Arab tribe and as such, were thoroughly Arabized, adopting the Arab dress code, customs, and language.[6]
The Muwallads were also referred to as Muslima (Islamized), and elches (ilj,pl ulus), as a reference to the society from which they sprang, and also came to be referred to as Aljamiados, as a reference to their non Arabic-tongue, the term having particular reference to Persian.
Through the cultural Arabization of muladies and their increasing inter-marriage with the small number of Berbers and Arabs present in Iberia, the distinctions between the different Muslim groups became increasingly blurred in the 11th and 12th centuries. The populations mixed with such rapidity that it was soon impossible to distinguish ethnically the elements of foreign origin from the natives. Therefore, they merged into a more homogeneous group of Andalusi Arabs generally also called Moors.
Anyway, where in that whole series of images is there any reference to the word Moor associated with the image?
Seems easy enough.
Doug, you all expect people to believe that Black Africans made up a sizable proportion of the Moorish population. Just were exactly are all these images of Black Moors that date to the Andalusian Period?
I don't expect anything other than you supporting your argument with hard fact. For starters, how about showing the evidence through translation or otherwise, that the images in the book of Games is intended to be a depiction of Moors? And then on top of that provide evidence that the populations from Africa who invaded Spain during the Islamic period were not primarily indigenous blacks from Africa. Likewise, care to explain the reason the word as defined by Europeans explicitly means "black person" and always has, especially during the Medieval period? The point is that there are numerous works from the time of the Islamic invasion that states clearly that the invaders were "black as pitch". However, that is completely different than a book that is simply called "the book of games" and has no explicit reference to Moors in it.
You whine about something yet provide nothing to support your whining.
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Klutz, the original Iberian context of Moors in the Iberian peninsula is precisely that: "black African" figures of Moorish presence in the area, starting with the Almoravids.
The concept of flag bearing the Moorish heads, along with similar renditions on coins, is contemporaneous with Moorish Iberia; where and when else would it have come from; 19th Century racist European? And if Moors were anything but 'black', you'd be seeing white heads instead of black ones, would you not. Use your head for once.
As if to mock you further, the above is consistent with genetic and skeletal data.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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NONE of those paintings that you provided date to the Andalusian Period. All you all can do is to kick and scream like a putz, and shout it down as being a "fake," just because you don't want to accept the reality. Pathetic! [/QB][/QUOTE]
And you will continue to ignore the fact that the White Iberian population outnumbered the original Moors which is even varified by every researcher on Moorish Spain. LMAO..you suck at this Fawal.
More Moors Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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[img]Oh my God! Ad Hominems galore![/img] This Thread is built upon non sense, I have already provided evidence that the Native Ibreaians out numbered the Original Moors, also the fact that the Moors took wives from Iberia and not their native Africa is a well established fact. You came here thinking we were not well versed in Moorish History.
Just what evidence do you have that Black Africans accounted for a sizable proprotion of the "original Moors?" Written sources, Studies, pictures of the offspring of the Moors?? Are you blind ar just Ignoring like you always do.
Those paintings that you provided were produced hundreds of years after the fall of Al-Andaluse; LMAO, Strawman...We have pictures of Populations from Mauritaunia, Morocco, etc. We have pictures of the Taureg, we have evidence of the existance of large populations of Moors, not to mention the ORIGINAL definition and people the Maures were Nothing but Black North Africans. Are you going to deny this..
[img]meanwhile just about every image that we currently have of the Moors that date to that period show them to be primarily Caucasians and not Negroes.[/img] All the Images you and Mathida provide are of Native Iberians and do not represent the Original Moors that set up shop. You like Mathida manipulate you audience becuase you know they are ignorant of the facts. We have pictures of the offspring of the Moors after the Expulsion. How did these people turn from the white Blonds you see to the Blacks in the current population?? Especially with the high number of WHITE SLAVERY in NORTH AFRICA that you seem to conviently ignore... http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/whtslav.htm
Most previously estimated slave counts have thus tended to be in the thousands, or at most in the tens of thousands. Davis, by contrast, has calculated that between 1 million and 1.25 million European Christians were captured and forced to work in North Africa from the 16th to 18th centuries. Do you see how silly your entire argument seems? No I see how you are trying to squirm after realizing you can't pull that Mathida B.S on Here..
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Most of the people in fawal's images don't even look Islamic (judging by their dress), so I fail to see how this proves the "Moors" were all non-black.
Of course, not all the Muslims in medieval Spain were black, but it is a fact that the Almoravid dynasty in particular originated along the Senegal River south of the Sahara. Therefore, it is still safe to say that one "Moorish" dynasty had a black origin.
Posts: 7069 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Most of the people in fawal's images don't even look Islamic (judging by their dress), so I fail to see how this proves the "Moors" were all non-black.
Of course, not all the Muslims in medieval Spain were black, but it is a fact that the Almoravid dynasty in particular originated along the Senegal River south of the Sahara. Therefore, it is still safe to say that one "Moorish" dynasty had a black origin.
No one on E.S has said all of the Moors were black. If we have its the Fringe, Me, Doug and all the others know who the Moors were. Fawal is trying to use the Book of Games to say the Moors were mainly white. He is using spin tactics to manipulate those that know little of the Moorish Spanish history like Mathida and other do.
The Moors were originally Black and the Moors that invaded in 711 were Brown and Black not white. The decendants of the Moors are still alive and they have been depicted on E.S. The Almoravids were not the only Blacks in Moorish Spain.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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I have stated this simple rule of thumb every Blackman was a Moor...but not all Moors were black
And the book of games has one or two pics posted that had any remote connection with Moors most are Christian playing Christians look at the costumes..like I said in another thread some people love to distort and can't leave a streight fwd fact alone... Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:I am uploading all of the art from the "Book of Games." These, unlike many of the paintings that have been used as "proof" of Black Moors on this board, are actually contemporaneous with Moorish rule in Spain. For people like anguishofbeing, untruthcentric, Bob_01, et al, who are linguistically challenged, I will define contemporaneous. I must say, I was actually quite surprised, as I had expected there to have been a much larger Negroid population; but instead, in the entire book, I was only able to find two pages featuring Black Moors. Enjoy! [Big Grin]
I never knew the study of Linguistics entailed memorizing mis-used vocabulary. That said, enough, with the tabloid English. You could catch me in bookstores reading mountains of book, so I'm quite familiar with your poor use of the English. Oh I have spoken with journalists tied with various major newspaper, so you can start sucking my dick.
So we move to the claim: All Moors are Black.
Do you want to know my position?
Do you really want to know my position?
Ok, it's rather simple:
I think the term Moor referred to a variety of peoples from Black Africans, to the Persians and Turks. In addition, I don't cite books to back my assertion, I refer to science.
Some may consider that a sham, but oh well. I embrace multi-disciplinary research, however I want a scientific basis. That's quite clear, so let us move on to the thread that actually backs my position.
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This is my steadfast position: The original Iberian context is reference to Black African figures of Moorish presence in that area.
Has the word been indiscriminately used thereafter, i.e. post-Moorish Iberia Europe? Yes.
Does this change the original context? No.
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
Klutz, the original Iberian context of Moors in the Iberian peninsula is precisely that: "black African" figures of Moorish presence in the area, starting with the Almoravids.
The concept of flag bearing the Moorish heads, along with similar renditions on coins, is contemporaneous with Moorish Iberia; where and when else would it have come from; 19th Century racist European? And if Moors were anything but 'black', you'd be seeing white heads instead of black ones, would you not. Use your head for once.
As if to mock you further, the above is consistent with genetic and skeletal data.
-------------------- The Complete Picture of the Past tells Us what Not to Repeat Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Klutz, the original Iberian context of Moors in the Iberian peninsula is precisely that: "black African" figures of Moorish presence in the area, starting with the Almoravids.
The concept of flag bearing the Moorish heads, along with similar renditions on coins, is contemporaneous with Moorish Iberia; where and when else would it have come from; 19th Century racist European? And if Moors were anything but 'black', you'd be seeing white heads instead of black ones, would you not. Use your head for once.
As if to mock you further, the above is consistent with genetic and skeletal data.
The only "klutz" here is yourself. And just from your language and tone alone I can tell that you have absolutely no valuable knowledge on the topic at hand. I have emailed an actual scholar on Moorish Spain to address the questions that both you and Doug M have raised in this thread - that way you all will have no way of shouting it down as a "fabrication," lest you all simply refuse to accept the facts (which in turn will only prove that there is no debating with any of you, since you all cling to your prejudgments like a religion). As soon as I get a response, I will copy the correspondence onto this board along with the email address in the event that you all have any further inquiries. And furthermore from what I now the genetic evidence gained from analyzing the current population of Iberia shows that the lineages they carry derive predominantly from North Africa and the Middle East, very little came from Sub-Saharan Africa.
@ Jari-Ankhamun
quote:And you will continue to ignore the fact that the White Iberian population outnumbered the original Moors which is even varified by every researcher on Moorish Spain. LMAO..you suck at this Fawal.
What I simply asked of you was to produce for me evidence that the "original Moors" had a sizable Black African population, something which as of yet you are still to do. And as I've said to you before, those paintings that you are using as "proof" of Black African Moors do not date to the Moorish era - all the art that we have from that area shows them to be primarily Caucasians and not Negroes. See below for more art done by the Moors themselves, this time from the Hadith Bayad wa Riyad manuscript:
quote:Written sources, Studies, pictures of the offspring of the Moors?? Are you blind ar just Ignoring like you always do.
The only person who is blind or ignoring the facts is yourself. You only believe what you want to believe and that is why there really is no point in me debating you.
quote:LMAO, Strawman...We have pictures of Populations from Mauritaunia, Morocco, etc. We have pictures of the Taureg, we have evidence of the existance of large populations of Moors, not to mention the ORIGINAL definition and people the Maures were Nothing but Black North Africans. Are you going to deny this..
Are you going to ignore all the art left by the Moors themselves and their neighbours that date to that period and that shows them to be primarily non-black?
quote:All the Images you and Mathida provide are of Native Iberians and do not represent the Original Moors that set up shop. You like Mathida manipulate you audience becuase you know they are ignorant of the facts. We have pictures of the offspring of the Moors after the Expulsion. How did these people turn from the white Blonds you see to the Blacks in the current population?? Especially with the high number of WHITE SLAVERY in NORTH AFRICA that you seem to conviently ignore...
I have asked for you to provide for me concrete evidence that the "original Moors" were predominantly Black Africans,something which you have yet to do. The only people who manipulate their audience because they now that they are ignorant of facts are Dana Marniche and Jide Uwechia on the rastawire blog. And Barbary Coast Slavery involved far more Black Africans than whites.
Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Most previously estimated slave counts have thus tended to be in the thousands, or at most in the tens of thousands. Davis, by contrast, has calculated that between 1 million and 1.25 million European Christians were captured and forced to work in North Africa from the 16th to 18th centuries.
This just proves to me that you're the typical low IQ black who really has no business discussing matters that you appear completely incapable of grasping. The 16th to 18th centuries encompasses the years 1500-1700 AD; Moorish rule took place between 711-1482 AD. In other words the event which Afrocentrists claim surposedly led to the "whitening up" of the Moors (and by extension all modern day berbers) took place long after the fall of al-Andalus. So then why is it that you fringe nuts continue to peddle you snakeoil of Negroid rule in Medieval Spain?
@ Untruthcentric
quote:Most of the people in fawal's images don't even look Islamic (judging by their dress), so I fail to see how this proves the "Moors" were all non-black.
Of course, not all the Muslims in medieval Spain were black, but it is a fact that the Almoravid dynasty in particular originated along the Senegal River south of the Sahara. Therefore, it is still safe to say that one "Moorish" dynasty had a black origin.
What exactly does it mean to "look Islamic?" The dress of the people that you see in those manuscripts are typical of Moorish garb at that time. LINK Most of the Moors were not black, and I would like for you to produce evidence for me substantiating the claim that the rulers of the Almoravid Dynasty were Black Africans.
@ Bob_01
quote:I think the term Moor referred to a variety of peoples from Black Africans, to the Persians and Turks. In addition, I don't cite books to back my assertion, I refer to science.
Yes I will agree with you on that definition of "Moor." But I do hope that you come to the realization that the "black" elements in Moorish society was negligible, outside of your odd slave or mercenary.
quote:Some may consider that a sham, but oh well. I embrace multi-disciplinary research, however I want a scientific basis. That's quite clear, so let us move on to the thread that actually backs my position.
And just what exactly is your position?
Posts: 138 | From: تونس | Registered: Feb 2009
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What I simply asked of you was to produce for me evidence that the "original Moors" had a sizable Black African population, something which as of yet you are still to do. And as I've said to you before, those paintings that you are using as "proof" of Black African Moors do not date to the Moorish era - all the art that we have from that area shows them to be primarily Caucasians and not Negroes. [b] Don't be stupid. The Moors were a multi racial society as I have said over and over. However the Moors that invaded in 711 were pure African Berbers and the original inhabitants of North Africa who were called Maurs or Moors by the Roman Impearialists. The invading Berbers were the Original Moors. Can you provide proof there were not Blacks amoung them. They were most certainly Black and Tawny Moors.
[b]See below for more art done by the Moors themselves, this time from the Hadith Bayad wa Riyad manuscript:
Yes very beautiful. However you did leave out one interseting fact. The Hadith Bayad wa Riyad manuscript is believed to be the only illustrated manuscript known to have survived from more than eight centuries of Muslim and Arab presence in Spain. So out of all the Moorish Manuscripts we have only 1 image survives also: Since this manuscript is the only reproduction of the text that has survived, there is not enough evidence to tell whether the al-Andalus manuscript had copied other manuscripts from the east, or the artistic influences arrived in al-Andalus by other means such as pottery or textiles. This could also explain the depiction of Samarra figure types while the rest of the features belong to the Baghdad school of painting.
More
The presence of the Samarra style in human types can be explained on account of the survival of the human types in the Fatimid minor arts, particularly textiles and pottery but also in terms of imports directly form Iraq.
The only person who is blind or ignoring the facts is yourself. You only believe what you want to believe and that is why there really is no point in me debating you.
Im showing pictures of people who are direct decendants of the Moors(esp Almohads and Almoravids)
Are you going to ignore all the art left by the Moors themselves and their neighbours that date to that period and that shows them to be primarily non-black? What art the only illuminated Manuscript is the Hadith of Baya Riyad which according to many researc is more Eastern in its style and treatment. How is this an accurate dipiction of the Moors from 711, the Caliphate of Cordoba, the Almoravids and Almohads, the Tafia rulers??
I have asked for you to provide for me concrete evidence that the "original Moors" were predominantly Black Africans,something which you have yet to do.
I want you to disprove the Original Moors had a small African population. All you can do is show pictures of Native Muslim Spainairds and a Hadith that is a Copy of Baghdad and Syrian images. Nice Try Fawal..
And Barbary Coast Slavery involved far more Black Africans than whites.Proof please... http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/whtslav.htmPosts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Most previously estimated slave counts have thus tended to be in the thousands, or at most in the tens of thousands. Davis, by contrast, has calculated that between 1 million and 1.25 million European Christians were captured and forced to work in North Africa from the 16th to 18th centuries.
This just proves to me that you're the typical low IQ black who really has no business discussing matters that you appear completely incapable of grasping. The 16th to 18th centuries encompasses the years 1500-1700 AD; Moorish rule took place between 711-1482 AD. In other words the event which Afrocentrists claim surposedly led to the "whitening up" of the Moors (and by extension all modern day berbers) took place long after the fall of al-Andalus. So then why is it that you fringe nuts continue to peddle you snakeoil of Negroid rule in Medieval Spain? Come on Fawal don't play stupid what I posted has to do with the White Slavery in North Africa not the Moors. The Moors took no wives from their Native lands and instead married women native to Iberia Come on Fawal you do know this is a fact right..LOL A Moor and a Christian More Images to come!!
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Earling,honored aimer of spears,eagerly advanced toward the vassel in victory,with banners of blood;the black worriors,brave lads we captured or killed,crimsoning our blades,busey with this Dromond business our blades we bloodied on the blacks.
“Grieve not at this, poor wretch, and with thine own hand give thy wife the potion whatever is be for did she choose to bear her leaping children in her womb thou wouldst, perchance, become the sire of an Ethiop, a blackamoor would soon be your sole heir.”
- Juvenal, Satire VI, lines 596 – 600
“One of them, with wooly hair, like a Moor, seems to be the son of Santra, the cook. The second, with a flat nose and thick lips, is the image of Pannicus, the wrestler . . . of the two daughters, one is black . . . and belongs to Crotus, the flute player.”
- Martial, VI, 39.
“When tired of each noblest matron, (Gildo) hands her over to the Moors. These Sidonian mothers, married in Carthage City, must needs be mate with barbarians. He thrusts upon me an Ethiopian son-in-law. This hideous hybrid affects the cradle.” Claudian.
Fawal who are these people being mentioned above from atleast Roman times..do they resemble any of the pics of Syrians or Euro's playing chess that you posted?
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Earling,honored aimer of spears,eagerly advanced toward the vassel in victory,with banners of blood;the black worriors,brave lads we captured or killed,crimsoning our blades,busey with this Dromond business our blades we bloodied on the blacks.
“Grieve not at this, poor wretch, and with thine own hand give thy wife the potion whatever is be for did she choose to bear her leaping children in her womb thou wouldst, perchance, become the sire of an Ethiop, a blackamoor would soon be your sole heir.”
- Juvenal, Satire VI, lines 596 – 600
“One of them, with wooly hair, like a Moor, seems to be the son of Santra, the cook. The second, with a flat nose and thick lips, is the image of Pannicus, the wrestler . . . of the two daughters, one is black . . . and belongs to Crotus, the flute player.”
- Martial, VI, 39.
“When tired of each noblest matron, (Gildo) hands her over to the Moors. These Sidonian mothers, married in Carthage City, must needs be mate with barbarians. He thrusts upon me an Ethiopian son-in-law. This hideous hybrid affects the cradle.” Claudian.
Fawal who are these people being mentioned above from atleast Roman times..do they resemble any of the pics of Syrians or Euro's playing chess that you posted?
Well Im off, but before I go Fawal is being dishonest he posted his pics with out providing the interesting information that went with them..
According to the very site he got his pictures from the Manuscript is a mere copy of styles from the East.
An open question is how popular the favorite Iraqi texts were in Spain (ej. The Maqamat, Kalila wa Dimma, the Dioscorides or the Automata). Since this manuscript is the only reproduction of the text that has survived, there is not enough evidence to tell whether the al-Andalus manuscript had copied other manuscripts from the east, or the artistic influences arrived in al-Andalus by other means such as pottery or textiles. This could also explain the depiction of Samarra figure types while the rest of the features belong to the Baghdad school of painting. And Close examination of the garments does not reveal any indication of al-Andalus textile designs. The figures wear plain robes in dark green, orange, pink and grey-blue. The range of colours that has been used (pink, dark green, dark grey blue, gold, ivory, light brown and orange) can be found in paintings in Syria, the forty-second Maqâmât 6094 in the Biblioteque National and the Schefer Maqâmât Hariri from Iraq. However in the Maqamat, figures wear patterned robes very often. It is worth noting the absence of red, light blue and green. And CONCLUSIONS
In short the two major sources for the manuscript are the school of Baghdad and Samarra in the east and local features which are extensible represented.
The technical aspects of the manuscript have their roots in the school of Baghdad such as the treatment of the space, depiction of architecture, conventions for depiction of nature, plain background among others. I believe, it can be safe to assume that the major school of painting at that time was ahead in the innovation of new techniques. The affinities with the current empire at that time.
The presence of the Samarra style in human types can be explained on account of the survival of the human types in the Fatimid minor arts, particularly textiles and pottery but also in terms of imports directly form Iraq.Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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I just want to point out that representation of any living image by Muslims is haram. This is why in Muslim household you hardly see pictures. I am not sure how devout the Moors were but if they were devout Muslims most of their representations would have come from non-Muslim groups or possibly converts. This is somethig to take in consideration.
Plus the older representations of Moors cannot be negated because when they were run out of Spain many left and went back to Maghreb or other parts of Europe. For proof see Stanley Lane Poole's The Moors After Spain.
Those representations with the Arabic caligraphy looks like something that is from Bagdad or Persia. I am not disputing its authenticiy but it does not seem to come from Al-Andulas.
From what history I read most of the rulers of Al-Andulas were not Berbers or ''black'' Africans but mostly Arabic. After all the first caliphate in Spain were offshoots of the Umayyid. Yes, according to legend the mother of the founder was a Berber slave.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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LMAO @ this fool Fawal spamming pics from the 'Book of Games' yet all of his pics show Europeans with only a few Saracen (Syrian and other fair-skinned Muslims)!
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Lmao @ Fawal and his frenzied book of games picture spams! Fawal, I can understand your grief at the fact of black moors, but please just post links, you f!ck up the page with these bog ugly pictures of Al-Andulas crackers. I want to enjoy your beatdown.
Muhommed Abed, blacks were among the so-called Arabs and Berbers too.
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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