posted
The blacks who suffered from racial descrimination and were considered in many cultures as synonymous for slaves, are legitmiated to struggle against this misuse of the human-being. But this legacy is changed in a negative image. It became "afro-centrism". This afro-centrism is not to manicipate the black people and their cultures, but to proove the black supermacy. The logic is simpel: The greatest civilization is the Egyptian civilization, and this one was black, so the black civilization is the greatest civilization.
Hence, it is false to call it "afro-centrism". Since, it represents only the Black side of this continent. The modern African Egyptians are considered as non-egyptians, descendants of white people. The Egyptian civilization is rather related to the southern African or Congolese black populations than to the modern Egyptians.
They're not African minded, but black minded: Their civilization is African, and Africa is black. Those whites are strangers to Africa.
In the case of the Berbers, we see that those black minded blacks consider them as strangers for the Egytians civilization. A common culture with the congolese tribes and the Egyptian one is plaussible, while any connexion between the Berber culture and Egyptian one is considered as a search of civilisation in Egypt. They like forgetting that those Berbers like as the Nubians are most related to the Ancient Egyptians. Not only geogriphical, but also linguistical (like as the other Afro-Asiatic languages).
Contrary to this facts, we see attempts to ignore their North African backgrounds. This is not only typical for the black minded people, but also for Eurocentrics.
quote: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the referse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69)
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Mazigh - Incredibly, against all science, history and logic. You are stupidly trying to make the case that Berbers descend from Vandals.
And to support that stupid lie, you tell a historic lie:
Here is the REAL history: The Vandals entered northern Algeria in 429 A.D. with 80,000 men, they then went on to take Carthage and Tunisia. But by 533 A.D. the Romans had driven them out.
How is that 400 years of rule? By my count it's 104 years. Where is the cultural legacy? Where is the anything, but a squatting homeless cultureless people, trying desperately to claim lands and a culture which they really have nothing to do with.
The only Africans that you have commonality with, are the Afrikaners is South Africa. If there is any justice, you will share their fate.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
All Afrocentric scholars don't maintain the position of "Black Supremacy", although there are some that do, you should be able to distinguish between the different varieties.
Many maintain such a strong stance, as they are consistently faced with the white-washing or Arabicizing (is this a word?) of almost every major accomplishment of the African race. They are consistently fighting against forces that would like to maintain the status-quo and the position that 'Black' Africans could not have attained any achievements independent of 'foreign' influence.
This is not to question rather Berbers or Modern Egyptians are not indigenous African people, but rather what these indigenous people accomplished before they were CAUCASOIDICIZED, if you understand what I mean. As a Berber, you should not allow yourself to be Europeanized or Arabicized, but embrace your African heritage independent of these influences. Too many Africans, including East Africans in Ethiopia, Somalia, and Eritrea are often too proud to identify themselves as White, trying to separate themselves and hence African's accomplishments from their Western African counterparts. It's almost as if they themselves have bought into the 'superiority' complex.
Black Americans , have a significant European admixture themselves, but most of us try to SUPPRESS that portion of our genetic heritage and embrace our indigenous African heritage, but often find that we are treated like the illegitimate step-children, and have no business trying to embrace a history from the continent we descended from. While it's perfectly O.K. for Indians to embrace the Persian empire, or Europeans to embrace the Ancient Greeks, and so on. So you have to understand what forces we are up against, in order for you to fully relate to the various positions that have resulted as such.
Posts: 747 | From: Atlanta, GA USA | Registered: May 2004
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^^Quote - While it's perfectly O.K. for Indians to embrace the Persian empire.
What do you mean by that? Parts of India were a conquered part of the Persian Empire, but I don't think that any Indian ever celebrated that fact.
BTW - Afrocentrics do not want to claim any particular African culture or history. Their concern is the TRUTHFUL presentation of history, and the TRUTHFUL identification of the people involved in MAKING that history.
The fact that when these things are Truthfully exposed, it turns out that Human history is in fact uniquely a "Black History;" is only a happy coincidence.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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i can relate to what u saying mazigh because in my residence in the idrissi city of fes i used to get in alot of talks about the indegenous pop. of morocco and i used to hear alot from elders of people in ifrane who claim roman heritage and how amongst the moroccan population i seen alot of people who had mughuliyya(epicanthic eyefold) like asians and that they resemble native alaskans or native americans alot. it was said to me that there was migrations of ancient mongols that came through but this is not in the books explicitly although uthman dan fodio's son points towards that in his history of takrur. i know from my dealings with most north africans except those in the south or sahra that northerners have mannerisms and accents like southern europeans much like in the way people of darfur have accents and mannerisms more closer to west africans than to those on the other side of the nile. check this vid out and the accent of the guy named dr. khalil of the sudan who,i believe, is from the zaghawa people. their accents are like people of the west than easterns like ethiops,somalis,eritreans,even southern sudanese have the same accent. i can hear it in their english and arabic. There are scholars(van sertima,bin berry, etc) who do consider them (zaghawa) to be a component to other ancient nations like the mande, the gao(kukiya) complex and kanem. ibn khaldun included them with sanhaja. anyway i do notice from the (خضراوية-khadrawiyya)light skinned northern north africans that they different mannerisms and accents from the southern saharawis. i was shocked when i went to andalus, الجزيرة الخضراء (algeciras) in modern spain and was shocked on how the population looked like northern moroccans and i had a hard time distinguishing from the spaniards and the maghariba. the spanish accent reminds me of the people of tangier. i was reading in this website http://www.temehu.com/Temehu.htmthat the berber tribes of the fayyum and the whole of delta are native and just7 like the ta seti confederation were native to teh south but the egyptians are invaders of the delta and the ras(south) and have never been true owners of those lands that is why they all ways were exposed to raids from these sides with the exception of the sellout sides who allied with the egyptians. the article made alot ofe sense because it shed new light on a puzzle to me y egypt all ways stayed in conflict with these neighboring entities and the many findings of populations already existing before the egyptian state makes sense.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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abdulkarem3 - It is well documented in Egyptian history that the delta was conquered lands. What does that have to do with modern non-Black north Africans, or Mazighs silliness about Blue eyed, Blond haired Vandals being Berbers?
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Mazigh it is simple the "Berbers" a language group have significant Eurasian mtdna now the question is how and when those carrying Eurasian mtdna arrived in Africa one of my guesses is they came as refugees from Troy and their wars with Kemet looking for a new home,these Eurasians were allies to the Libyans against Kemet,after their defeat they took refuge with their equally defeated allies and transferring their genes as well as phenotype, thus one can have lite-skinned "Berbers" as well as dark-skinned types who were the originals..but that does not make the lite-skinned types non African as they would have inherit that birth-right through their pt-dna the African fathers.again these conflict were not racial wars as how we moderns would under-stand it. for even earlier a presumably foreign and lite-skinned group the Hyksos made alliances with the very dark-skinned Kushites against the dark-skinned Kemites. not saying that the above is the only possible explanation but one should not take it too lightly.
Posts: 6546 | From: japan | Registered: Feb 2009
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quote:abdulkarem3 - It is well documented in Egyptian history that the delta was conquered lands. What does that have to do with modern non-Black north Africans, or Mazighs silliness about Blue eyed, Blond haired Vandals being Berbers?
what brada said. these people didnt fall out the sky. they must have assimilated because they look alot like populations in the southern areas of southern europe. they are very distinguishable from the saharan groups.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
While Mazigh likes to claim that Afrocentrics want to steal history, the truth is that some have tried to claim much Egyptian history as Berber. But the problem is that there is no evidence of "Berbers" in the old Kingdom, which means that identifying the Tehenu and Temehu as Berbers is purely speculative without actual linguistic evidence showing they spoke Berber languages.
Many seem to be wringing their hands asking where did these mysterious White people come from - they must have been there all along! And see, they even look like southern Europeans!
Idiots - Doesn't anybody actually READ history?? THEY ARE SOUTHERN EUROPEANS!!!
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
That quote attributing the Berbers to the Vandals is of "Anta Diop". Of course it is nonsense. Because the so-called "Afrocentrism" is based on nonsense.
It is Anta Diop who is silly, not me Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Assuming that you are right about the quote; how does that refute "Afrocentrism"?. One writer makes a careless mistake in OPINION, and the discipline of uncovering truthful history is refuted? Only in your dreams!
Legitimate people WANT truthful history - the others do not. It is obvious which type you are.
Posts: 22721 | Registered: Oct 2005
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That opinion is not just an opinion. He wanted to make it so to support his afrocentric nonsense. That the Berber language is not Germanic, or even Indo-europian is just clear. It would be just afro-asiatic. But he said so, because he want to make everything is african as black (like egyptians), that afro-centric nonsense is wide sprea. You find it also here:
"Winters noted that the Libyco-Berber script couldn’t be read using the Berber language, because the Berbers only entered Africa around the time the Vandals conquered much of North Africa. Although the Libyco-Berber script cannot be read using the Berber language, it can be read using the Mande language. This is because the Proto-Mande formerly lived in Libya, until they migrated from this area into the Niger valley of West Africa."
Should we take them seriously?
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Mazingh The Berbers are not Germanic..Seems to me the Berbers are an intermediate between darker blacks and white southern Europeans.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Of course they are not Germanic, it is overclear nonsense!!!! It is the alive exemple of the afrocentric nonsense of Anta Diop and Winters who claimed this.
Posts: 883 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: Mazingh The Berbers are not Germanic..Seems to me the Berbers are an intermediate between darker blacks and white southern Europeans.
. Pray tell; What is intermediate about these people?
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A pure-blood Berber.
Are these mixed-breed what you were talking about?
posted
Mike 111, Genetically speaking the Berbers have West Eurasian, and African influences. You put up a big hoop and holler about the Germanic and White European Influence on Berbers but ignore a Black influnece as well. Of course there were Blacks in North Africa but there were also Migrants from the middle East. the Kabyles Like Zidane don't look White nor Black...You can point Zidane out in a crowd of White Europeans..
Also care to explain the appearance of the Natives of the Canary Islands..
The Guanches are the mysterious natives of the Canary Islands. They were conquered by the Spaniards during the turn of the 15th century. Tall, blond and blue-eyed, the Guanches have long intrigued the anthropologists, for blond natives are rarity. According to the reliable Encyclopedia Britannica, the Guanches "are thought to have been of Cro-Magnon origin... and had a brown complexion, blue or gray eyes, and blondish hair."
Indeed, the Guanches are deemed to be related to the Berbers of neighboring Morocco, who are, likewise, tall, blond and blue-eyed when unmixed with the Arab majority. Other specialists, however, believe that the Guanches are related to the Celts of Western Europe, the early realm of these races. No matter what, the Guanches represent a unique opportunity of studying the early peoples of this region.
Isolated in their islands, the Guanches were prevented, until the advent of the Spanish, from sexually mingling with other races. So, they preserved their pristine Cro-Magnon genetic traits in a more or less pure fashion until that date. But, as we said, the Guanches were conquered by the Spaniards, and many if not all mingled heavily with the Spanish invaders. The blond, blue-eyed, tall stock has been preserved in part, and can still be seen in many individuals. As is known, blond traits are dominated by dark ones, and tend to disappear from the population. But they survive unseen, and may return in certain individuals called "recessives", who combine the proper genes.
Furthermore, the Guanches mummified their dead, and this material can be studied by the researchers, particularly concerning traits such as blood type and racial characteristics. This strange mode of disposing of the dead — which the Guanches shared with the Polynesians, the Egyptians and the Mayas — has been mooted out by several authorities as indicating a close affinity among these distant nations. The Guanches also left some sort of alphabetic inscriptions which have yet to be studied, along with their pottery and peculiar ruins. All in all, the archaeology of this most remarkable people is far from satisfactorily researched.
Many researchers have pointed out the resemblance of the Guanche natives with the Cro-Magnons and, particularly, with Cro-Magnoid types of regions such as those of Muges (Portugal) dating from the Mesolithic (c. 8,000 BC). Similar groups have been noted and studied Portugal, Spain, France, England, Sweden and Northwest Africa, precisely the realm of the Celto-Germanic and the Berber races.
What to make of Guanches??
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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I agree Middle-Easterns are not considerd white by groupos like Neo-Nazis or KKK no matter how pale they are. Most are dark haired with Olive toned skin. Plus most don't consider themselves white either.
Posts: 55 | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted
Bottom line, Berber is a language. It is not a skin color. Berber languages originated in Africa. There is nothing that has been offered by any linguist anywhere to suggest otherwise. Therefore, the original speakers of Berber languages who originated that culture were black Africans. That is simply a fact. It is also a fact that many modern Berbers also have Eurasian ancestry. There is nothing shocking about this if you look at a map of North Africa and the fact it is right across the Mediterranean from Europe and next to the Levant. But again, there is no evidence that Berber languages originated in Europe or around the Mediterranean. All the evidence points to an origin inside Africa in the Sahara and into East Africa around Sudan and Ethiopia.
Therefore, claiming that 6,000 - 8,000 years ago or however many years ago black Africans originated Berber languages does nothing to change the fact that modern Berber speakers are physically and culturally diverse due to a long history of exchange and interaction with various groups throughout history. There is nothing static about people, culture or language. Everything changes and therefore it is immature to try and force things into a static mold when the facts do not support such a position.
Also looking at the artwork from ancient Egypt does not give you a full understanding of the history of North Africa and the development of Berber languages. It only presents a part of the history of that region and the rest has to be filled in without the benefit of very detailed realistic artwork from ancient times. That means linguistic analysis, genetic analysis, anthropological analysis and archaeology.
Posts: 8890 | Registered: May 2005
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Jari-Ankhamun - Even though your material is silly, your tone is sincere, so I will treat it seriously.
It has been my refrain for years: "White lies and Bullsh1t". Yet so many refuse to see it.
Firstly - you are kidding yourself; Zidane is no different than any other White man - You might consider having your eyes checked.
As to the other White man bullsh1t, consider this.
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This fuching White man calls himself a Berber.
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This fuching White man calls himself an Arab.
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THIS IS A BERBER!
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DO YOU SEE ANY RESEMBLANCE?????
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THESE ARE THE KIND OF PEOPLE IN THAT BULLSH1T BERBER STUDY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How is that for REAL White man Bullsh1t????
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As to the Guanches of the Canary Islands - Here is what the source actually says.
"These aboriginal peoples inhabited the western and eastern Canary Islands. They were first encountered by the conquering Spaniards at the beginning of the 15th century. Both populations are thought to have been of Cro-Magnon origin, and may possibly have come from central and southern Europe via north Africa, in some distant age. Both aboriginal groups had brown complexion skin, blue or gray eyes, and blondish hair. These characteristics still persist in a large number of present day inhabitants of the islands, but otherwise they are scarcely distinguishable in appearance or culture, from the current people of Spain. Neither original group now exists as a separate race."
Funny - for such a unique people they never took pictures or made drawings - er?
Anyway there is nothing unusual about people who look like that - here is an example.
BTW - Once you have freed your minds from the White mans bullsh1t, please take note of where the Canary Islands are on the map.
Do you REALLY believe that those Islands and people went unknown and undiscovered until the time of Columbus?
posted
If fraud is the sign of a desperate person threatened by what others say than you are truly the most pitiful of fakes. You who pretends to be a Black man while posting the most anti-Black, racist nonsense.
I know,Iknow! I am so pathetic, but my bi-polar disorder takes over sometimes. I say things, and I do things totally against my character when I dont have my medication. Please forgive me, if I say some retarded stuff sometimes, but I just love to cause discord and mischeif.
Me and my other username are one in the same, dont be misled by my ex-EuroTalk, it was all nonsense
Posts: 416 | From: Solar System | Registered: Mar 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Bottom line, Berber is a language. It is not a skin color. Berber languages originated in Africa. There is nothing that has been offered by any linguist anywhere to suggest otherwise. Therefore, the original speakers of Berber languages who originated that culture were black Africans. That is simply a fact. It is also a fact that many modern Berbers also have Eurasian ancestry. There is nothing shocking about this if you look at a map of North Africa and the fact it is right across the Mediterranean from Europe and next to the Levant. But again, there is no evidence that Berber languages originated in Europe or around the Mediterranean. All the evidence points to an origin inside Africa in the Sahara and into East Africa around Sudan and Ethiopia.
Therefore, claiming that 6,000 - 8,000 years ago or however many years ago black Africans originated Berber languages does nothing to change the fact that modern Berber speakers are physically and culturally diverse due to a long history of exchange and interaction with various groups throughout history. There is nothing static about people, culture or language. Everything changes and therefore it is immature to try and force things into a static mold when the facts do not support such a position.
Also looking at the artwork from ancient Egypt does not give you a full understanding of the history of North Africa and the development of Berber languages. It only presents a part of the history of that region and the rest has to be filled in without the benefit of very detailed realistic artwork from ancient times. That means linguistic analysis, genetic analysis, anthropological analysis and archaeology.
THIS ^
The comedy of the whole situation though is this:
quote: Berber languages originated in Africa. There is nothing that has been offered by any linguist anywhere to suggest otherwise.
quote: It is also a fact that many modern Berbers also have Eurasian ancestry.
quote: modern Berber speakers are physically and culturally diverse due to a long history of exchange and interaction with various groups throughout history.
True, True, and True, yet some people just cannot accept the fact that they are MIXED AFRICANS! Since Berber people NOR LANGUAGE originated in Western Europe, the middle East or SCANDINAVIA, it doenst make a person "More Berber", True Berber" or "Real Berbers" if they have MORE Western European, Middle Eastern or Scandinavian Ancestry!.........WHY? Because Berber = Saharan AFRICAN. These fools have let white people twist their identity.....But genetics dont lie. I am going to have to go with Mike on this you have one group of Relatively non Admixed Africans and another group of Relatively Admixed Africans....Both speaking the same African language. What white people are doing, and what these Admixed Africans seemed to have ACCEPTED in order to become "Honorary Whites" is defined the Admixed Population as the "Real" or "True" peoples. This is the same BS you see in Egypt with Deltoids vs the Southerners.
It would be like saying since the Khoisan mixed with the Bantu peoples then the "True" South Africans are Cape Colored Mixed population and not the Bantu nor the SAN. Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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Mazigh - The edit time has expired, but that is good, it should stay - as a testament to the fantasy world of the former Albinos. In their fantasy world, the weak and defective like them are superior, so therefore they create all images in their likeness.
But how different the real World. That White man fantasy picture posted by Jari-Ankhamun was in response to this REAL description of REAL people.
"These aboriginal peoples inhabited the western and eastern Canary Islands. They were first encountered by the conquering Spaniards at the beginning of the 15th century. Both populations are thought to have been of Cro-Magnon origin, and may possibly have come from central and southern Europe via north Africa, in some distant age. Both aboriginal groups had brown complexion skin, blue or gray eyes, and blondish hair. These characteristics still persist in a large number of present day inhabitants of the islands, but otherwise they are scarcely distinguishable in appearance or culture, from the current people of Spain. Neither original group now exists as a separate race."
By description, those REAL people would look like this.
But in the former Albinos fantasy mind, they look like this. Worst yet, they have brainwash even non-former Albinos into accepting their delusion.
posted
Mazigh sorry but I can no longer edit.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Why even use Europeans as a litmus with which to judge "genetic purity"? There are plenty of Euros / "white" folk who Zidane could blend in with.
Edit
Other than the afrocentrism and black scapegoating (yawn), i notice this thread brings to discussion a notion extra-continental origins for Berber Speaking folks.
There exists genetic evidence for extra continental influence beginning around the Nile-Dynastic era and increasing up to the modern era through things like extra-continental conquest and sex-slave trafficking. These influences - possibly having been exacerbated by practices such as polygamy and, particularly for coastal/Northern North Africa, the geological issue of the open seas to the North and harsh desert South - playing a role in why North Africans look like they do today.
As for isolated features like epic. eye folds and such, some of these exist in groups clear to the Southern end of the continent and others also exist among the darker skinned North Africans, so...
quote:Originally posted by hilarious Mike 1 x Trinity:
Jari-Ankhamun [...]
Firstly - you are kidding yourself; Zidane is no different than any other White man - You might consider having your eyes checked.
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