posted
Since we seem to have a bit of interest on Greece here this book is a must for anyone who wants to really understand the birth of western civilization. that spark of creativity that lived in the Greek mind but was absent in other ancient empires is clearly shown in this great book. this is a must read for anyone interested in the west.
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Since we seem to have a bit of interest on Greece here this book is a must for anyone who wants to really understand the birth of western civilization. that spark of creativity that lived in the Greek mind but was absent in other ancient empires is clearly shown in this great book. this is a must read for anyone interested in the west.
Can you sumerize and give us examples from the book??
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posted
Crass materialism and atheism was in fact a Greek breakthrough.
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While Green does little more than hint at many factors (the differences in military technology, the importance of the Laurium silver strike, etc.), he offers something technical studies of such details or solid exegeses of Herodotus can not — an attempt to make sense of the wars as a whole, to provide a single coherent overview of them. There are surprisingly few works which attempt this and there are fewer still which combine a scholarly approach with popular accessibility. Green's accounts of the key battles are entrancing and the whole volume is hard to put down — for pure pleasure The Greco-Persian Wars is unmatched by anything I have read on the subject since I first discovered Mary Renault's Lion in the Gateway as a child.
Physically The Greco-Persian Wars is an attractive volume, with a nice selection of halftones and a dozen maps (though many of these have no scale or indication of north, or, rather distractingly, show modern roads and towns). I recommend it to anyone who enjoys history, especially military history, but its biggest readership will be amongst school and university students studying the period, many of whom simply won't read anything more stolid.
October 1996
External links: - buy from Amazon.com or Amazon.co.uk - details at University of California Press
Related reviews: - Peter Green - The Laughter of Aphrodite: A Novel about Sappho of Lesbos - books about Greece + Greek history - more ancient history - books published by University of California Press %T The Greco-Persian Wars %A Green, Peter
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posted
Hammer, we could have done that ourselves, CAN YOU in the words of HAMMER give us somethings you got out of the book that you want to point out??
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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Obviously mr. peter green has some hostility toward the the persian (iranian)culture. Right at the intro, he goes on about how achaemenid persia gave no contribution to the world at all! well, for one, the persian court was a frequent learning place for the greek scholars for at least 200 years.(according to herodotus himself), postal system,tolerating free practice of religon and culture, no use of slavery, intricate governmet system(which completely was a failure when greeks attempted after alexander's barbaric conquest),pioneering army technological advances( check out "persian army" by nick sekunda), building great roads connecting the empire(two third of the known world then)... not to mention that alexander and the rest of the greeks burned down and destroyed alot of persian literature, and scentific recordings, alot of persian achievements were destroyed. Therefor, what is left today is known to be the greek's acheivements to their credits without a solid proof for the most part. only the battles that the greeks had won are grossly portrayed which to the iranians was nothing but an insignificant setback, untill the barbaric advances of alexander ofcourse. Even the bible praises cyrus, darius, xerxes, and artaxerxes for the humane, and generous actions of the persian emperors especially to the jews. mr. peter green get a clue! there was a reason that the persians were always envied by the greeks, and there was a reason that the greeks call the persian emperors lord of asia!
posted
^ Looks like Hammered-brains needs to get a clue. LOL
This reminds me, that the ONLY reason why Persia went to war against Greece in the first place was because Greek colonies in Asia Minor who were willingly under Persian hegemony were attacked and sacked by their brethren who considered them traitors. Yet those like Mr. Green and professor Hammered believe the Greeks to be 'civilized' while the Persians were the cruel barbarians as portrayed in the movie '300'.
In Persian society, all peoples including women by law had civil rights unlike in Greece. "Greek democracy" indeed. And what many people don't know is that Persia had advanced mechanical technology and even the beginnings of robotics that the Greeks "adopted", so there goes your "spark of Greek creativity". LOLPosts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
Not to mention Persia is where most of "Western Medieval" culture originated, including court culture, crowns, royal dress, Knights in Armor and so forth and so on. Byzantine Rome copied much of Persian court culture and military culture and from this comes Western "medieval" culture, which was also transmitted West by the spread of Islam.
And most of Greek culture was simply an Eastern and Southern transplant anyway. Greeks in long beards were simply following the traditions of the Sumerians, Babylonians, Assyrians and Persians before them. Sorry, this is simply European pseudo scholarship at its best.
Civilization does not originate in the West or Greece. Civilization originated in the East and South. And by civilization this includes: writing, mathematics, art, architecture, systems of governance, political organization, warfare and everything else. None of this started in the West and none of "Western Civilization" is new or separate from what had taken place for thousands of years prior to Greece.
Persian Tiara:
quote: Tiara is a form of crown. There are two possible types of crown that this word can refer to.
Traditionally, the word "tiara" refers to a high crown, often with the shape of a cylinder narrowed at its top, made of fabric or leather, and richly ornamented. It was used by the kings and emperors of some ancient peoples in Mesopotamia. The Assyrians used to include a pair of bull horns as a decoration and symbol of authority and a circle of short feathers surrounding the tiara's top. The Persian tiara was more similar to a truncated cone, without the horns and feathers but more jewels, and a conic-shaped tip at its top.
quote: The oldest depictions of mural crowns can be found in the second millennium BCE, in Assyria and Elam. Among the people depicted with this object is queen Aššur-sharat, the wife of the Assyrian king Aššurbanipal (r.668-631), on a relief that is now in Berlin. Another early representation can be found in Naqš-i Rustam, where fragments of a very ancient relief have survived near a relief that commemorates the Sassanian king Bahram II (r.276-294). Because a part of the old relief is now lost, we do not know whether the crowned lady is a queen or a deity.
posted
True, as always the Eurocentric myth that Greece was the foundation of Western Civlization is challenged by the fact that the Greek Empire A.K.A the Helenistic was EASTERN in orientation NOT Western like Rome.
Its quite easy when one studies the history of the East, that the Greek empires like the Helenistic and later the Byzantine had more in common with Persia than with Rome. Rome is the Foundation of Western Civilization.
Also one can simply look at a map:
To see that Northern and Western Europe are no where to be found in the Greek sphere of influence..
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Since we seem to have a bit of interest on Greece here this book is a must for anyone who wants to really understand the birth of western civilization. that spark of creativity that lived in the Greek mind but was absent in other ancient empires is clearly shown in this great book. this is a must read for anyone interested in the west.
Philosopher King - a book is not great just because a European wrote it or reviewed it.
Just a caution for ya. Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Not to mention Persia is where most of "Western Medieval" culture originated, including court culture, crowns, royal dress, Knights in Armor and so forth and so on. Byzantine Rome copied much of Persian court culture and military culture and from this comes Western "medieval" culture, which was also transmitted West by the spread of Islam.
Yes, and that includes Medieval notions like poetic love etc.
quote:And most of Greek culture was simply an Eastern and Southern transplant anyway. Greeks in long beards were simply following the traditions of the Sumerians, Babylonians, Assyrians and Persians before them. Sorry, this is simply European pseudo scholarship at its best.
Even Greek traditions themselves say they originated from the east, especially Anatolia. That's why ancient Greek styles were originally called "oriental" by modern scholars.
quote:Civilization does not originate in the West or Greece. Civilization originated in the East and South. And by civilization this includes: writing, mathematics, art, architecture, systems of governance, political organization, warfare and everything else. None of this started in the West and none of "Western Civilization" is new or separate from what had taken place for thousands of years prior to Greece...
Thus the whole concept of "West" is a recent and subjective notion established by Western Europeans.
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: True, as always the Eurocentric myth that Greece was the foundation of Western Civlization is challenged by the fact that the Greek Empire A.K.A the Helenistic was EASTERN in orientation NOT Western like Rome.
Its quite easy when one studies the history of the East, that the Greek empires like the Helenistic and later the Byzantine had more in common with Persia than with Rome. Rome is the Foundation of Western Civilization.
Also one can simply look at a map:
To see that Northern and Western Europe are no where to be found in the Greek sphere of influence..
Indeed, the Western Roman Empire from which the term 'Western' civilization is nowhere to be found.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Since we seem to have a bit of interest on Greece here this book is a must for anyone who wants to really understand the birth of western civilization. that spark of creativity that lived in the Greek mind but was absent in other ancient empires is clearly shown in this great book. this is a must read for anyone interested in the west.
greece was not the only culture in the ancient world to have a spark of creativity,you could find that in african and asian cultures in the ancient world,so stop speaking like greece was the most creative,it was not.was greece creative?yes,more so then rome for the west.but for me egypt and nubia in ancient times was more so, more creative then the greeks.
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Also note this and the strong influence of Bhuddist/Asian fresco artistic themes)circa 1180, Kastoria, church of Agioi Anargyroi Greece. Also note that Greece was a powerful force behind the Byzantine Empire from circa the 8th century AD up until the 15th century. So, uh, even then Greek culture was still strong in the East and had absolutely nothing to do with the West: http://www.flickr.com/photos/21711359@N08/3943449923/in/set-72157622430924114/
In fact, the West at the time wanted nothing to do with the East and the Western Christian church was actively trying to reclaim the power of the Roman empire in the East which was under the Byzantine Emperor. These Western Bishops considered the move of the seat of Roman power to the East as a sacriledge. Every since then the Bishops in the West were actively engaged in and finally succeeded in moving the Papacy back to Rome, under a line of Germanic Kings, who were often in conflict with Byzantine Rome. Therefore, when the 1st Crusade was called by the Byzantine Emperor, the Western crusaders took this as an opportunity to get rid of the Byzantines and to lay claim to the remains of the Old Roman Empire and move it back to the West, which eventually led to the Sack of Constantinople by the Crusaders (Christian vs Christian). And this caused a split between the Eastern and Western church, where the Eastern Church is strongly dominated by the Greeks and the Western Church by Rome and the Germanic line of Kings and Queens. So any nonsense about "Western", ie Roman or Greek civilization being lost between the 3rd century and 15th century AD is nonsense. It was the same place it always was, in Rome, Greece and the East and never in the West.
posted
You mention greece and all the roaches come running out spouting a line of history nodody has ever heard of. Persia had nothing of note to do with medieval europe. Looks like the computer lab in the mental institution is full again.
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And before you claim this is Greek, keep in mind that this style of head dress originates in Mesopotamia, Egypt and elsewhere and the Greeks copied it from there:
But these things are things that "classicists" often overlook, even though real archaeologists and art historians document these influences in the Greek and later Roman world.
The whole "east vs west" nonsense is more political than cultural as the influence culture from East to West is old as history itself.
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Also note that Ashur is a symbol of power as a warrior god or the "victorious one". This is a key aspect of religious iconography where the god symbolizes earthly power in the form of victory at war.
quote:He extends his right hand, with the forefinger outstretched, as if he has just snapped his fingers. This is the typical Assyrian gesture of respect and supplication towards the gods. The gods could be worshipped in symbolic form and here represent (from top to bottom) the gods Ashur, Shamash, Sin, Adad and Ishtar (compare with an earlier stela of Ashurnasirpal II (883-859 BC)). The king wears a large Maltese cross on his chest as an alternative symbol of Shamash, god of the sun and justice.
Jesus Pantocrator is the most common image of Jesus Christ in the Eastern Orthodox Church. The Icon is symbolic of Christ the ruler of all and is often found painted at the top of the domes inside Eastern churches. This is again a symbol of the sun.
And before people dismiss the connection between Christ and other cultures of the East, keep in mind that Christianity was first developed and organized in the lands of the East, including Egypt, Armenia, Ethiopia, Greece, Turkey and parts of Mesopotamia. Among the peoples most strongly associated with the Church of the East are Assyrians and they are still part of the Church of the East. It is from this adoption and incubation among people of the East that earlier symbolism from Mesopotamia, Persia and Egypt made it into Christianity under Greek and Roman theological supervision.
The Main Church of the East itself was originally centered in the city of Ctesiphon which was the capital of Sassanian Persia.
quote: The Church of the East, also known as the Nestorian Church,[note 1] is a Christian church, part of the Syriac tradition of Eastern Christianity. Originally the church of the Persian Sassanid Empire, it quickly spread widely through Asia. Between the 9th and 14th centuries it was the world's largest Christian church in terms of geographical extent, with dioceses stretching from the Mediterranean to China and India. Following a schism in 1552 the Church of the East has been split into two principal communities: the independent Assyrian Church of the East and the Chaldean Catholic Church, an Eastern Catholic church in communion with the Holy See.
The Church of the East was headed by the Patriarch of the East, continuing a line that, according to tradition, stretched back to the time of the apostles. Liturgically, the church adhered to the East Syrian Rite. Theologically, it is associated with the doctrine of Nestorianism, which emphasizes the distinctness of the divine and human natures of Jesus. This doctrine and its chief proponent, Nestorius (386–451), were condemned by the church of the Roman Empire at the First Council of Ephesus in 431, leading to the Nestorian Schism and a subsequent exodus of Nestorius' supporters to Sassanid Persia. The existing Christians in Persia welcomed these refugees and gradually adopted Nestorian doctrine, leading the Church of Persia to be known alternately as the Nestorian Church. However, there are those that would claim it is inaccurate to designate the Church of the East as Nestorian, that, in fact, "Nestorius himself was no Nestorian"[1].
The church grew rapidly under the Sassanids, and following the Islamic conquest of Persia, it flourished as a protected dhimmi community under Islamic rule. From the 6th century, it expanded greatly, establishing communities in India (the Saint Thomas Christians), Central Asia (where they had evangelical success among the Mongol tribes), and China, which was home to a thriving Nestorian community under the Tang Dynasty from the 7th to the 9th century. In the 13th and 14th century the church experienced a final period of expansion under the Mongol Empire, which had influential Nestorian Christians in the Mongol court.
The reason these facts are so often overlooked is because of the schism that arose between the West and the East in the centuries after Constantine and the Rise of the Holy Roman Empire. But again this is more of a political issue than a strictly theological issue even though the Church of the East has some very different canon traditions than the Church of the West.
posted
Continuing the ways that the east was the source of what is considered "Western", you have the crusades. The Crusades were called by a Byzantine Emperor from the East in response to military defeats at the hands of the Arabs and Mongols. Now, at this point, the East had been the scene of over two thousand years of warfare between Greeks and Persians, Romans and Persians, Romans and Asians, Babylonians and Assyrians, Assyrians and Egyptians, Hittites and Babylonians and so forth and so on. The cultures and traditions were old as history itself. And against this backdrop, came the new religion of Christianity which was developed from the ashes and remains of these earlier cultures. Christianity was first nurtured and developed in the regions of the east and the lands of Mesopotamia, Egypt and the Levant.
Outside of Egypt and Ethiopia, the first country to adopt Christianity as the state religion was Armenia. Armenia adopted Christianity even before Byzantine Rome and the rest of Europe. It was Armenia that was at the heart of many of the battles between the Byzantines and the Armies of the East. It is in Armenia that the Crusaders received many of the iconic symbols of the Crusades: the crosses, the colors, the castles and the Churches. Armenian churches are among the oldest in the World, next to Egyptian monasteries. There are ancient Castles from cultures even predating Christianity in Armenia. Armenia absorbed and preserved many traditions from the Persians and Mesopotamia. These traditions made their way into the Eastern Church and during the crusades proliferated to the West.
All of these images are from the Armenian Cathedral of the Holy Cross built in the 10th century AD. The iconography and imagery combines Persian, Arab and Armenian elements. And many of these elements are predating the iconography of the Church in the West, as an example the big red Maltese Cross. But that "Maltese Cross" did not originate with any Knights from Malta or the "Western" knights of the Crusades. That cross originated in the Church of the East and the Armenian traditions of Kachkars and the Coptic tradition of Cross representations.
posted
Did anybody say the Persians were Negroes yet? Kinda funny, Negroes obsessed with white culture trying to find a shred of evidence that it all really "came from the black man".
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Note: even the traditions of "gnomes" comes from the East: Behistun inscription: Skunkha, king of 'wearing pointed caps' sakae (group of scithian tribes).
This of course is an image of an early Scythian tribe.
None of this is new to those Europeans who know their history.
For example, see the passages from the book "Morals and Dogma" by Albert Pike:
Chapter 6 Knight of the East
quote: The religion taught by Moses, which, like the laws of Egypt, enuciated the principle of exclusion, borrowed, at every period of its existence, from all the creeds with which it came in contact. While, by the studies of the learned and wise, it enriched itself with the most admirable principles of the religions of Egypt and Asia, it was changed, in the wanderings of the People, by every- thing that was most impure or seductive in the pagan manners and superstitions. It was one thing in the times of Moses and Aaron, another in those of David and Solomon, and still another in those of Daniel and Philo. At the time when John the Baptist made his appearance in the desert, near the shores of the Dead Sea, all the old philosophical and religious systems were approximating toward each other. A general lassitude inclined the minds of all toward the quietude of that amalgamation of doctrines for which the expeditions of Alex- ander and the more peaceful occurrences that followed, with the establishment in Asia and Africa of many Grecian dynasties and a great number of Grecian colonies, had prepared the way. After the intermingling of different nations, which resulted from the wars of Alexander in three-quarters of the globe, the doctrines of Greece, of Egypt, of Persia, and of India, met and intermingled everywhere. All the barriers that had formerly kept the nations apart, were thrown down; and while the People of the West readily connected their faith with those of the East, those of the Orient hastened to learn the traditions of Rome and the legends of Athens. While the Philosophers of Greece, all (except the dis- ciples of Epicurus) more or less Platonists, seized eargerly upon the beliefs and doctrines of the East,--the Jews and Egyptians, be- fore then the most exclusive of all peoples, yielded to that eclecti- cism which prevailed among their masters, the Greeks and Romans. Under the same influences of toleration, even those who em- braced Christianity, mingled together the old and the new, Chris- tianity and Philosophy, the Apostolic teachings and the traditions of Mythology The man of intellect, devotee of one system, rarely displaces it with another in all its purity. The people take such a creed as is offered them. Accordingly, the distinction be- tween the esoteric and the exoteric doctrine, immemorial in other creeds, easily gained a foothold among many of the Christians; and it was held by a vast number, even during the preaching of Paul, that the writings of the Apostles were incomplete; that they contained only the germs of another doctrine, which must receive from the hands of philosophy, not only the systematic arrange- ment which was wanting, but all the development which lay con- cealed therein. The writings of the Apostles, they said, in address- ing themselves to mankind in general, enunciated only the articles of the vulgar faith; but transmitted the mysteries of knowledge to superior minds, to the Elect,--mysteries handed down from gen- eration to generation in esoteric traditions; and to this science of the mysteries they gave the name of Gnosis. The Gnostics derived their leading doctrines and ideas from Plato and Philo, the Zend-avesta and the Kabalah, and the Sacred books of India and Egypt; and thus introduced into the bosom of Christianity the cosmological and theosophical speculations, which had formed the larger portion of the ancient religions of the Orient, joined to those of the Egyptian, Greek, and Jewish doctrines, which the Neo-Platonists had equally adopted in the Occident. Emanation from the Deity of all spiritual beings, progressive degeneration of these beings from emanation to emanation, re- demption and return of all to the purity of the Creator; and, after the re-establishment of the primitive harmony of all, a for- tunate and truly divine condition of all, in the bosom of God; such were the fundamental teachings of Gnosticism. The genius of the Orient, with its contemplations, irradiations, and intuitions, dictated its doctrines. Its language corresponded to its origin. Full of imagery, it had all the magnificence, the inconsistencies, and the mobility of the figurative style.
posted
^^^^ The Persians were whites so it makes sense their culture diffused into Europe, the question is was the diffusion a one way street??
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by TheHorsenation: Did anybody say the Persians were Negroes yet? Kinda funny, Negroes obsessed with white culture trying to find a shred of evidence that it all really "came from the black man".
Hehehe...Lol
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quote:Originally posted by TheHorsenation: Did anybody say the Persians were Negroes yet? Kinda funny, Negroes obsessed with white culture trying to find a shred of evidence that it all really "came from the black man".
William Leo Hansberry gives a great discussion of the evidence of African Kushites ruling in Asia and Africa. Some ancient scholars noted that the first rulers of Elam were of Kushite ( Kerma ? ) origin. According to Strabo, the first Elamite colony at Susa was founded by Tithnus, a King of Kush. Strabo in Book 15, Chapter 3728 wrote that in fact it is claimed that Susa was founded by Tithonus Memnon's father, and his citadel bore the name Memnonium. The Susians are also called Cissians. Aeschylus, calls Memnon's mother Cissia.
Here is King Xerxes and other Persian Brothers .
William Leo Hansberry, African History Notebook, (1981) Volume 2 noted that:
In Persia the old Negroid element seems indeed to have been sufficiently powerful to maintain the overlord of the land. For the Negritic strain is clearly evident in statuary depicting members of the royal family ruling in the second millenium B.C.
Hundreds of years later, when Xerxes invaded Greece, the type was well represented in the Persian army. In the remote mountain regions bordering on Persia and Baluchistan, there is to be found at the present time a Negroid element which bears a remarkable resemblance to the type represented on the ancient mounments. Hence the Negritic or Ethiopian type has proved persistent in this area, and in ancient times it seems to have constituted numerically and socially an important factor in the population" (p.52) .
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: ^^^^ The Persians were whites so it makes sense their culture diffused into Europe, the question is was the diffusion a one way street??
Considering that Persia was part of a culture that had a 3000 year history it was more of a two lane street with 6 lanes on one side and two on the other. As an example, the banded steel armor and chain mail seen on Persian knights clearly was influenced by the Romans. The Romans also had other forms of influence. However, on the large most of the influence flowed from East to West and not the other way.
And the Persian empire had many ethnic groups. The Persians themselves being made up of Indo-Iranian types, types from to the North in the Caucasus, Southern types from the Gulf and others to the West nearer to India.
The primary method of the diffusion of Persian culture came from the Romans who adopted many traditions from their arch enemy. For example, here were also Roman cities that were heavily populated by Persians like Dura Europa. And then after that there was the migrations of European steppe nomads during the Great Migrations, like the descendants of the Scythians and others who played a role in Persian history and carried some of those traditions with them. But these steppe people weren't always considered Persians proper.
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"No aspect of this question is more discussed at present than the relation between Greece and the near East, especially Egypt. Some nineteenth-century scholars wished to downplay or deny any significant cultural influence of the Near East on Greece, but that was plainly not the ancient Greek view of the question. Greek intellectuals of the historical period proclaimed that Greeks owed a great deal to the older civilization of Egypt, in particular in religion and art. Recent research agrees with this ancient opinion. Greek sculptors in the Archaic Age chiseled their statutes according to a set of proportions established by Egyptian artists. Greek mythology, the stories that the Greeks told themselves about their deepest origins and their relations to the gods, was infused with stories and motifs of Near Eastern origin. The clearest evidence of the influence of Egyptian culture in Greek is the store if seminal religious ideas that flowed from Egypt to Greece: the geography of the underworld, the weighing of the souls of the dead in scales, the life-giving properties of fire as commemorated in the initiation ceremonies of the international cult of the goddess Semeter of Eleusis (a famous site in Athenian territory), and much more.
These influences are not surprising because archaeology reveals that the population inhabiting Greece had diplomatic and commercial contact with the Near East as early as the middle of the second millennium B.C... When the Greeks learned from the peoples of the Near East, they made what they learned their own. This is how cultural identity is forged, not by mindless imitation or passive reception. (pg. 21)
"The civilizations of Mesopotamia and Anatolia particularly overshadowed those of Crete and Greece in the size of their cities and the development of extensive written legal codes. Egypt remained an especially favored destination of Mycenean voyagers throughout the late Bronze Age because they valued the exchange of goods and ideas with the prosperous and complex civilization of that land." (pg 30)
[endquote]
-- (From: Thomas R. Martin (2000) Ancient Greece: From Prehistoric to Hellenistic Times. Yale University Press, pg 21, 30) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- courtesy of the Explorer
"It is not, of course, to be supposed that these coastmen and islanders of the Ćgean were without some rudimentary notions of art of their own. In the time of Thothmes III., there were already Cypriote settlers making Cypriote pottery, and inscribing their pots with Cypriote characters at Tell Gurob. In the time of Meneptah, the Lycians and Carians and Achćans were ship-builders and workers in bronze; and we may take it for granted that they fashioned rude Cyclopean temples, like the primitive temple discovered a few years ago in Delos, with probably an upright stone for a god. But architecture, sculpture, and original decorative art, we may be sure they had none.
And the proof that they had none is found in the fact that the earliest known vestiges of Greek architecture, Greek sculpture, and Greek decorative art are copied from Egyptian sources.
It is not at all strange that the Greeks should have borrowed their first notions of architecture and decoration from Egypt, the parent of the arts; but that they should have borrowed architectural decoration before they borrowed architecture itself, sounds paradoxical enough. Yet such is the fact; and it is a fact for which it is easy to account.
The most ancient remains of buildings in Greece are of Cyclopean, or, as some have it, of Pelasgic origin; and the most famous of these Cyclopean works are two subterraneous structures known as the Treasury of Atreus and the Treas- [Page 168] ury of Minyas–the former at Mycenć, in Argolis, the latter at Orchomenos, in Boeotia. Both are built after the one plan, being huge dome-shaped constructions formed of horizontal layers of dressed stones, each layer projecting over the one next below, till the top was closed by a single block. The whole was then covered in with earth, and so buried. Such structures scarcely come under the head of architecture, in the accepted sense of the word.
Now, whether the Pelasgi were the rude forefathers of the Aryan Hellenes, or whether they were a distinct race of Turanian origin settled in Greece before Hellas began, is a disputed question which I cannot pretend to decide; but what we do know is, that the prehistoric ruins of Mycenć and Orchomenos are four hundred, if not five hundred, years older than the oldest remains of the historic school. Of all that happened during the dark interval which separated the prehistoric from the historic, we are absolutely ignorant.
If, however, the builders of Mycenć and Orchomenos were Pelasgians, and if the builders of the earliest historic temples were Hellenes, it is, at all events, certain that the Pelasgians went to Egypt for their surface decoration, and the Hellenes for their architectural models. Moreover–and this is very curious–they both appear to have gone to school to the same place. That place is on the confines of Middle and Upper Egypt, about one hundred and seventy miles above Cairo, and its modern name is Beni-Hasan.
The rock-cut sepulchres of Beni-Hasan are among the famous sights of the Nile. They are excavated in terraces at a great height above the river, and they were made for the great feudal princes who governed this province under the Pharaohs of the Twelfth Dynasty. Their walls are covered with paintings of the highest interest; their ceilings are rich in polychromatic decoration; and many are adorned with pillared porches cut in the solid rock. (43)
It is to be remembered that the foundation of the Twelfth Egyptian Dynasty–the great dynasty of the Usertesens and Amenemhats–dates from about 3000 to 2500 years before [Page 169] Christ. These Beni-Hasan sepulchres are therefore older by many centuries than the so-called "Treasuries" of Orchomenos and Mycenć.
Now, at Mycenć, near the entrance to the Treasury of Atreus, there stands the base and part of the shaft of a column decorated with a spiral ornament, which here makes its first appearance on Greek soil. This spiral (though it never achieved the universal popularity of the meander, or "key pattern," or of the misnamed "honeysuckle pattern" ) became in historic times a stock motive of Hellenic design; and all three patterns–the spiral, the meander, and the honeysuckle–have long been regarded as purely Greek inventions. But they were all painted on the ceilings of the Beni-Hasan tombs full twelve hundred years before a stone of the Treasuries of Mycenć or Orchomenos was cut from the quarry. The spiral, either in its simplest form, or in combination with the rosette or the lotus, is an Egyptian design. The rosette is Egyptian; and the honeysuckle, which Mr. Petrie has identified as a florid variety of the lotus pattern, (44) is also distinctly Egyptian." - by Amelia Edwards, Pharaohs Fellahs and Explorers; Chapter 5: Egypt the Birthplace of Greek Decorative Art., 1891. Source: Link
"A striking change appears in Greek art of the seventh century B.C., the beginning of the Archaic period. The abstract geometric patterning that was dominant between about 1050 and 700 B.C. is supplanted in the seventh century by a more naturalistic style reflecting significant influence from the Near East and Egypt. Trading stations in the Levant and the Nile Delta, continuing Greek colonization in the east and west, as well as contact with eastern craftsmen, notably on Crete and Cyprus, inspired Greek artists to work in techniques as diverse as gem cutting, ivory carving, jewelry making, and metalworking (1989.281.49-.50). Eastern pictorial motifs were introduced—palmette and lotus compositions, animal hunts, and such composite beasts as griffins (part bird, part lion), sphinxes (part woman, part winged lion), and sirens (part woman, part bird). Greek artists rapidly assimilated foreign styles and motifs into new portrayals of their own myths and customs, thereby forging the foundations of Archaic and Classical Greek art." - Source: Greek Art in the Archaic Period | Thematic Essay | Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History | The Metropolitan Museum of Art
"Design was monumental but not architecturally complex and employed posts and lintels, rather than arches, although Egyptian expertise in stone had a strong influence on later Greek architecture....
The history of art and architecture in Ancient Greece is divided into three basic eras: the Archaic Period (c.600-500 BCE), the Classical Period (c.500-323 BCE) and the Hellenistic Period (c.323-27 BCE). About 600 BCE, inspired by the theory and practice of earlier Egyptian stone masons and builders, the Greeks set about replacing the wooden structures of their public buildings with stone structures - a process known as 'petrification'. Limestone and marble was employed for columns and walls, while terracotta was used for roof tiles and ornaments. Decoration was done in metal, like bronze...
Architectural Methods of Ancient Greece
Like the Egyptians, the Greeks used simple post-and-lintel building techniques." - Source: visual-arts-cork.com
I think the following sums up undeniable 'western' fascination with and romanticization of ancient Egypt:
A SCHOLAR of no less distinction than the late Sir Richard Burton wrote the other day of Egypt as "the inventor of the alphabet, the cradle of letters, the preacher of animism and metempsychosis, and, generally, the source of all human civilization." This is a broad statement; but it is literally true. Hence the irresistible fascination of Egyptology–a fascination which is quite unintelligible to those who are ignorant of the subject. - Amelia Edwards, 1891.
The immigration of Greeks to Egypt for the purpose of their education, began as a result of the Persian invasion (525 B.C.), and continued until the Greeks gained possession of that land and access to the Royal Library, through the conquest of Alexander the Great. Alexandria was converted into a Greek city, a centre of research and the capital of the newly created Greek empire, under the rule of Ptolemies. Egyptian culture survived and flourished, under the name and control of the Greeks, until the edicts of Theodosius in the 4th century A.D., and that of Justinian in the 6th century A.D., which closed the Mystery Temples and Schools, as elsewhere mentioned. (Ancient Egypt by John Kendrick Bk. II p. 55; Sandford's Mediterranean World p. 562; 570).
Concerning the fact that Egypt was the greatest education centre of the ancient world which was also visited by the Greeks, reference must again be made to Plato in the Timaeus who tells us that Greek aspirants to wisdom visited Egypt for initiation, and that the priests of Sais used to refer to them as children in the Mysteries.
As regards the visit of Greek students to Egypt for the purpose of their education, the following are mentioned simply to establish the fact that Egypt was regarded as the educational centre of the ancient world and that like the Jews, the Greeks also visited Egypt and received their education. (1) It is said that during the reign of Amasis, Thales who is said to have been born about 585 B.C., visited Egypt and was initiated by the Egyptian Priests into the Mystery System and science of the Egyptians. We are also told that during his residence
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in Egypt, he learnt astronomy, land surveying, mensuration, engineering and Egyptian Theology. (See Thales in Blackwell's source book of Philosophy; Zeller's Hist. of Phil.; Diogenes Laertius and Kendrick's Ancient Egypt).
(2) It is said that Pythagoras, a native of Samos, travelled frequently to Egypt for the purpose of his education. Like every aspirant, he had to secure the consent and favour of the Priests, and we are informed by Diogenes that a friendship existed between Polycrates of Samos and Amasis King of Egypt, that Polycrates gave Pythagoras letters of introduction to the King, who secured for him an introduction to the Priests; first to the Priest of Heliopolis, then to the Priest of Memphis, and lastly to the Priests of Thebes, to each of whom Pythagoras gave a silver goblet. (Herodotus Bk. III 124; Diogenes VIII 3; Pliny N. H., 36, 9; Antipho recorded by Porphyry).
We are also further informed through Herodotus, Jablonsk and Pliny, that after severe trials, including circumcision, had been imposed upon him by the Egyptian Priests, he was finally initiated into all their secrets. That he learnt the doctrine of metempsychosis; of which there was no trace before in the Greek religion; that his knowledge of medicine and strict system of dietetic rules, distinguished him as a product of Egypt, where medicine had attained its highest perfection; and that his attainments in geometry corresponded with the ascertained fact that Egypt was the birth place of that Science. In addition we have the statements of Plutarch, Demetrius and Antisthenes that Pythagoras founded the Science of Mathematics among the Greeks, and that he sacrificed to the Muses, when the Priests explained to him the properties of the right angled triangle. (Philarch de Repugn. Stoic 2 p. 1089; Demetrius; Antisthenes; Cicero de Natura Deorum III, 36). Pythagoras was also trained in music by the Egyptian priests. (Kendrick's Hist. of Ancient Egypt vol. I. p. 234).
(3) According to Diogenes Laertius and Herodotus, Democritus is said to have been born about 400 B.C. and to
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have been a native of Abdera in Miletus. We are also told by Demetrius in his treatise on "People of the Same Name", and by Antisthenes in his treatise on "Succession", that Democritus travelled to Egypt for the purpose of his education and received the instruction of the Priests. We also learn from Diogenes and Herodotus that he spent five years under the instruction of the Egyptian Priests and that after the completion of his education, he wrote a treatise on the sacred characters of Meroe.
In this respect we further learn from Origen, that circumcision was compulsory, and one of the necessary conditions of initiation to a knowledge of the hieroglyphics and sciences of the Egyptians, and it is obvious that Democritus, in order to obtain such knowledge, must have submitted also to that rite. Origen, who was a native of Egypt wrote as follows:—
"Apud Aegyptios nullus aut geometrica studebat, aut astronomiae secreta remabatur, nisi circumcisione suscepta." (No one among the Egyptians, either studied geometry, or investigated the secrets of Astronomy, unless circumcision had been undertaken).
(4) Concerning Plato's travels we are told by Hermodorus that at the age of 28 Plato visited Euclid at Megara in company with other pupils of Socrates; and that for the next ten years he visited Cyrene, Italy and finally Egypt, where he received instruction from the Egyptian Priests.
(5) With regards to Socrates and Aristotle and the majority of pre-Socratic philosophers, history seems to be silent on the question of their travelling to Egypt like the few other students here mentioned, for the purpose of their education. It is enough to say, that in this case the exceptions have proved the rule, that ail students, who had the means, went to Egypt to complete their education. The fact that history fails to supply a fuller account of this type of immigration, might be due to some or all of the following reasons:
(a) The immigration laws against the Greeks up to the time of King Amasis and the Persian Invasion, (b) Prose
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history was undeveloped among the Greeks during the period of their educational immigration to Egypt. (c) The Greek authorities persecuted and drove students of philosophy into hiding and consequently, (d) Students of the Mystery System concealed their movements.
Let us remember that Anaxagoras was indicted and imprisoned; that he escaped and fled to his home in Ionia, that Socrates was indicted, imprisoned and condemned to death; and that both Plato and Aristotle fled from Athens under great suspicion (William Turner's Hist. of Phil. p. 62; Plato's Phaedo; Zeller's Hist. of Phil. p. 84; 127; Roger's Hist. of Phil. p. 76; William Turner's Hist. of Phil. p. 126). 2. The Effects of the Conquest of Egypt by Alexander the Great.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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Here is one conservative scholar on Greek borrowing from Egypt and the Near east. HE lists the adoption of writing as of crucial development to Greek civ, and points out that the Greeks did not invent their own alphabet but copied/adapted that of the Phonecians, peoples of a Near eastern and North African locale..
Another key influence, the introduction of iron technology was again, not a Greek invention but came from elsewhere.
The conservative also questions the "Greek Miracle.."
Below is another conservative writer. He is a staunch supporter of Greek philosophy, but even he notes that the Greeks STYLE of philosophy was different, not that they invented the subject. He notes that peoples of the Near East and Egypt already had their own philosophy. It is a matter of style, and Greek preferences, and how "philosophy" is defined. The conservative writer openly admits this. quote: "the perspective from which I discussed philosophy- was very much a Greek one."
Incidentally the same author also notes that questioning the degree to which Greek civ is derivative is something longstanding in some of the "classics" literature. "Afrocentrists" did not conjure up such questions out of thin air as alleged by some.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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^^Just hitting "Hammer" where it hurts, and backing up Doug's comments re Greek borrowing from elsewhere.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Not to mention Persia is where most of "Western Medieval" culture originated, including court culture, crowns, royal dress, Knights in Armor and so forth and so on. Byzantine Rome copied much of Persian court culture and military culture and from this comes Western "medieval" culture, which was also transmitted West by the spread of Islam.
And most of Greek culture was simply an Eastern and Southern transplant anyway. Greeks in long beards were simply following the traditions of the Sumerians, Babylonians, Assyrians and Persians before them. Sorry, this is simply European pseudo scholarship at its best.
Civilization does not originate in the West or Greece. Civilization originated in the East and South. And by civilization this includes: writing, mathematics, art, architecture, systems of governance, political organization, warfare and everything else. None of this started in the West and none of "Western Civilization" is new or separate from what had taken place for thousands of years prior to Greece.
Originally posted by Horsenation: Did anybody say the Persians were Negroes yet? Kinda funny, Negroes obsessed with white culture trying to find a shred of evidence that it all really "came from the black man".
The Persian area peoples were a distinct ethnicity- and their makeup varied over time. Trying to fit them into your little European "race" checkboxes is dubious. However it should be noted that in some scientific studies, the ancient peoples of Iran (or the Persian area) if you will, cluster more with tropical Africans, than with Europeans or Asians. Tropical Africans have a wide range in looks- narrow noses or loose hair are nothing special, but part of the built-in indigenous makeup, a diversity that does not need, nor depend on, your bogus "white culture."
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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1) Islamic/African motifs on the carpets. 2) Islamic/Persian/Asian brocade on the dresses 3) Central Asian inspired fur lined coats and dresses (Kazakh,Uzbek,Mongol,Tajik,turkmen,Altai,etc) 4) Central Asian inspired fur hats from central Asia 5) Persian inspired leggings 6) Persian inspired shirts (first male on right).. 7) Islamic inspired waist pouch commonly seen in North Africa 8) African Gold Jewelry 9) Islamic inspired design on woodwork and fireplace
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hey lioness, I just love, how you ridicule the BS from (Marks?) insane website with intelligence every time. The remark that "whites are not humans, so we can furnish them into handbags" was priceless. Really made my day.
Anyway, gotta cover myself with 1cm of sunblock now, otherwise I might just burn up and disintegrate today as the sun is pretty strong lol
king and queen of Aragon from 1634: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Petronila_Ramon_Berenguer.jpg Note the patterns on the clothes and the scepters. Also note the asian style sleeves on the ladies dress, the asian style fur trim and the central Asian style hat on the man.
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An update on the transmission of "Medieval" culture from Asia to Europe.
Continuing on the theme of the antecedants from Persia, you have the influence of the Persian style on the Ancient Indians, all of which is the ancient Indo European heartland to begin with.
Now all of this persian influence along with Central Asian influence formed the basis of the silk road textile trading empires and produced the fancy dress seen in later Indian court culture which is descended from the ancient traditions that also influenced Europe:
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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lol
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