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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
It does not say so much more than that the inventor of the hieroglyph may have looked like that, or that he saw people around him looking like that. Maybe the sign later became a convention. It does not mean that all Egyptians in all times always looked like that hieroglyph. I suppose you seen a lot of statues and paintings from ancient Egypt. Does everyone look the same on those depictions? Does everyone have the same facial features or hair?

Showing a hieroglyph do not tell much. We must study all depictions, we must study human remains, we must study DNA, to get a full picture of Egyptian demography.

Still we have not so very much DNA from ancient Egypt. When we get more, we will also get a more realistic and balanced view of ancient demographics, beyond political slogans.

To show one sign and think that it represents all people in a geographic area for at least 3000 years is a bit simplistic.

There are thousands of ancient Egyptians depicted in art, and all do not look the same. Mostly they seem to have been brown in skin tone, but their facial features have varied a lot.

Have you yourself been to Egypt and looked at ancient art yourself? Have you looked at the people in todays Egypt and studied the variation among people living there?

I am of the opinion that no one can be an expert of Ancient Egypt without having been in Egypt and studied some of its monuments and art in person, or seen the people there.

I am no expert of ancient Egypt, but it seems there has been a certain variation among its people, at least as it is depicted in art.

I wish though they could produce more DNA studies from different periods and different geographical locals.

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Buddy, Give it up.

The hieroglyph is the language of Ancient Egypt, and all signs of these hieroglphs for face shows a Black African.

DNA cannot prove a thing. The debate is Over.

Ancient Egypt is Black African inside all the language of egypt every hieroglyph of face shows a Black African.

Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Frank J. Yurco wrote in 1990: "When you talk about Egypt, it's just not right to talk about black or white .... To take the terminology here in the United States and graft it onto Africa is anthropologically inaccurate". Yurco added that "We are applying a racial divisiveness to Egypt that they would never have accepted, They would have considered this argument absurd, and that is something we could really learn from." Yurco wrote in 1996 that "the peoples of Egypt, the Sudan, and much of North-East Africa are generally regarded as a Nilotic continuity, with widely ranging physical features (complexions light to dark, various hair and craniofacial types)".In a 1989 article, he elaborated: "In short, ancient Egypt, like modern Egypt, consisted of a very heterogeneous population".
Mary Lefkowitz in 1997 whilst criticising elements of Afrocentrism had acknowledged that the origins of the ancient Egyptians were more clear due to the "recent evidence on skeletons and DNA [which] suggests that the people who settled in the Nile valley, like all of humankind, came from somewhere south of the Sahara; they were not (as some nineteenth-century scholars had supposed) invaders from the North".
Nancy Lovell wrote in 1999 that studies of skeletal remains indicate that the physical characteristics of ancient southern Egyptians and Nubians were "within the range of variation" for both ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa, and that the distribution of population characteristics "seems to follow a clinal pattern from south to north", which may be explained by natural selection as well as gene flow between neighboring populations. She also wrote that the archaeological and inscriptional evidence for contact between Egypt and Syro-Palestine "suggests that gene flow between these areas was very likely," and that the early Nile Valley populations were "part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation".
Stuart Tyson Smith wrote in 2001: "Any characterization of race of the ancient Egyptians depends on modern cultural definitions, not on scientific study. Thus, by modern American standards it is reasonable to characterize the Egyptians as 'black', while acknowledging the scientific evidence for the physical diversity of Africans." and "Ancient Egyptian practices show strong similarities to modern African cultures including divine kingship, the use of headrests, body art, circumcision, and male coming of-age rituals, all suggesting an African substratum or foundation for Egyptian civilisation".Smith also wrote in 2004: "Egyptian art depicts Nubians with stereotypical dark skin, facial features, hairstyles, and dress, all very different from Egyptians and the other two ethnic groups, Asiatics and Libyans". Smith also noted in 2004 that: "no single material correlate, no matter how abundantly represented, unambiguously reflects ethnic group affilitation".
Sonia Zakrzewski (2003) studied skeletal samples from the Badarian period to the Middle Kingdom in Upper Egypt. The raw data suggested that the Ancient Egyptians in general had "tropical body plans" but that their proportions were actually "super-negroid", i.e. the limb indices are relatively longer than in many “African” populations. She proposed that the apparent development of an increasingly African body plan over time may also be due to Nubian mercenaries being included in the sample, especially in the Middle Kingdom sample. Zakrzewski concluded that the "results must remain provisional due to the relatively small sample sizes and the lack of skeletal material that cross-cuts all social and economic groups within each time period."
Barry J. Kemp wrote in 2007 that the black/white argument, though politically understandable, is an oversimplification that hinders an appropriate evaluation of the scientific data on the ancient Egyptians since it does not take into consideration the difficulty in ascertaining complexion from skeletal remains. It also ignores the fact that Africa is inhabited by many other populations besides Bantu-related ("Negroid") groups. He wrote that in reconstructions of life in ancient Egypt, modern Egyptians would therefore be the most logical and closest approximation to the ancient Egyptians.
S. O. Y. Keita wrote in 2008 that "There is no scientific reason to believe that the primary ancestors of the Egyptian population emerged and evolved outside of northeast Africa.... The basic overall genetic profile of the modern population is consistent with the diversity of ancient populations that would have been indigenous to northeastern Africa and subject to the range of evolutionary influences over time, although researchers vary in the details of their explanations of those influences."
Marc Van De Mieroop wrote in 2021: "Some scholars have tried to determine what Egyptians could have looked like by comparing their skeletal remains with those of recent populations, but the samples are so limited and the interpretations so fraught with uncertainties that this is an unreliable approach". He concluded that ancient Egypt's "location at the edge of northeast Africa and its geography as a corridor between that continent and Asia opened it up to influences from all directions, in terms of both culture and of demography."
___________
Some modern views on bias in Egyptology
Sally-Ann Ashton wrote in 2011: "The fact that Ancient Egypt is forced to justify its African identity through its geographical location has not gone unnoticed....critics of the mainstream Eurocentric view of Ancient Egypt claim that not only is the connection between Egypt and Africa neglected, it is consciously denied". She later outlines "This is partly the legacy of the "rediscovery" of Egypt by Europe at the end of the 18th century. In addition to this historical context, Egyptology as a discipline is dominated by scholars who are White Europeans or North Americans".
Keith Crawford in 2021 presented a critique of the "Black Pharaohs" narrative accepted among mainstream scholars in which the Twenty-fifth Dynasty rulers were the only dynasty of Black African origin and academic representation of Egyptian-Kushite interactions. He concludes "The separation of Egypt from Africa, beginning nearly two centuries ago, resulted from Egyptologists, historians, and anthropologists interpreting archaeological finds and physical remains through a prism blurred by the racism of the time. These views have persisted to this day, despite overwhelming evidence that refutes them".
Genetic studies have been criticised by several scholars for a range of methodological problems and providing misleading, interpretations on racial classifications. Specifically, Keita and Kittles argue that DNA studies applied to the Nile Valley region have downplayed or excluded data on comparable, African populations in order to maintain certain racial models along with pre-selected data categories. Boyce and Keita in a later study, argue that certain studies have adopted a selective approach in sampling, such as using samples drawn mostly from northern (Lower) Egypt, which has historically had the presence of more foreigners from the Mediterranean and the Near East, and using those samples as representing the rest of Egypt. Thus, excluding the 'darker' south or Upper Egypt which presents a false impression of Egyptian variability. The authors also note that chromosonial patterns have featured inconsistent labelling such as Haplotype V as seen the with use of misleading terms like "Arabic" to describe it, implying this haplotype is of 'Middle Eastern' origins. However, when the hapotype V variant is looked at in context, it does have a very high prevalence in African countries above the Sahara and in Ethiopia.[66]
________________
Ancient Egyptian art
In their own art, "Egyptians are often represented in a color that is officially called dark red", according to Diop.Arguing against other theories, Diop quotes Champollion-Figeac, who states, "one distinguishes on Egyptian monuments several species of blacks, differing...with respect to complexion, which makes Negroes black or copper-colored." Regarding an expedition by King Sesostris, Cherubini states the following concerning captured southern Africans, "except for the panther skin about their loins, are distinguished by their color, some entirely black, others dark brown.University of Chicago scholars assert that Nubians are generally depicted with black paint, but the skin pigment used in Egyptian paintings to refer to Nubians can range "from dark red to brown to black". This can be observed in paintings from the tomb of the Egyptian Huy, as well as Ramses II's temple at Beit el-Wali. Also, Snowden indicates that Romans had accurate knowledge of "negroes of a red, copper-colored complexion ... among African tribes".

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Posts: 2560 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012  |  IP: Logged | 

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S.O.Y. Keita wrote in 2022 on the origins and the identity of the Ancient Egyptians. He examined various forms of evidence which included archaeology, historical linguistics and biological data to determine the population affinities. He concluded that "various disciplines indicate the groundings of Egypt within Northeastern Africa" and the ancient Egyptians "were a people and society that emerged in the Saharo-Nilotic region of Northeast Africa".[69] Keita also reviewed studies on the biological affinities of the Ancient Egyptian population and wrote in 1993 that the original inhabitants of the Nile Valley were primarily a variety of indigenous Northeast Africans from the areas of the desiccating Sahara and more southerly areas. He also added that whilst Egyptian society became more socially complex and biologically varied, the "ethnicity of the Niloto-Saharo-Sudanese origins did not change".[70]

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Modern scholars who have studied Ancient Egyptian culture and
population history have responded to the controversy over the race of
the Ancient Egyptians in different ways.
Since the second half of the 20th century, most anthropologists have
rejected the notion of race as having any validity in the study of
human biology. Stuart Tyson Smith writes in the 2001 Oxford
Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt, "Any characterization of race of the
ancient Egyptians depends on modern cultural definitions, not on
scientific study. Thus, by modern American standards it is reasonable
to characterize the Egyptians as 'black', while acknowledging the
scientific evidence for the physical diversity of Africans."Frank M.
Snowden asserts "Egyptians, Greeks and Romans attached no special
stigma to the colour of the skin and developed no hierarchical notions
of race whereby highest and lowest positions in the social pyramid
were based on colour." Additionally, typological and hierarchical
models of race have increasingly been rejected by scientists in favour
of models of geographical origin.

It is now largely agreed that Dynastic Egyptians were indigenous to
the Nile area. About 5,000 years ago, the Sahara area dried out, and
part of the indigenous Saharan population retreated east towards the
Nile Valley. In addition, peoples from the Middle East entered the
Nile Valley, bringing with them wheat, barley, sheep, goats, and
possibly cattle.Dynastic Egyptians referred to their country as "The
Two Lands". During the Predynastic period (about 4800 to 4300BC), the
Merimde culture flourished in the northern part of Egypt (Lower
Egypt). This culture, among others, has links to the Levant in
the Middle East.The pottery of the later Buto Maadi culture, best
known from the site at Maadi near Cairo, also shows connections to
the southern Levant as well. In the southern part of Egypt (Upper
Egypt), the predynastic Badarian culture was followed by the Naqada
culture. These people seem to be more closely related to the Nubians
than with northern Egyptians.

Due to its geographical location at the crossroads of several major
cultural areas, Egypt has experienced a number of foreign invasions
during historical times, including by the Canaanites (Hyksos), the
Ancient Libyans, the Nubians, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the
Persians, the Macedonian Greeks, the Romans (Byzantium in late
antiquity/early Middle Ages), the Arabs, the Turks, and the British.

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The Black Africans nearest the Ancient Egyptians were Nubians who lived in the exact same geographic and environmental conditions as the Ancient Egyptians. Ancient Egypt was a Nilotic Saharan population indigenous to that region, in the same way that the NUbians were. The studies of the osteology of Ancient Egyptians show that so called Nubians and Ancient Egyptians were more similar to each other than anyone else. Here is the definitive study done by Keita: A brief review of studies and comments on ancient Egyptian biological relationships - Springer
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF02444602#page-1
Here is a map of the population history of Ancient Egypt from the pre-dynastic age to the dynastic era. It shows the sources of population for Ancient Egypt:

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w513/Amunratheultimate/Misc/Climate-controlledoccupationintheEasternSaharaduringthemain.jpg

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"The ancient Egyptians were not 'white' in any European sense, nor were they 'Caucasian'... we can say that the earliest population of ancient Egypt included African people from the upper Nile, African people from the regions of the Sahara and modern Libya, and smaller numbers of people who had come from south-western Asia and perhaps the Arabian penisula."
--Robert Morkot (2005). The Egyptians: An Introduction. pp. 12-13

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The first egyptians look black and over time there were some that were white and brown in ancient times and the middle ages but most remain black. Anyway most egyptians today look brown,but there are large number that still black looking. Some egyptians today are white looking as well. By the way the civilization of the native egyptians is black and of african origin.

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Posts: 2560 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by KING:
Buddy, Give it up.

The hieroglyph is the language of Ancient Egypt, and all signs of these hieroglphs for face shows a Black African.

DNA cannot prove a thing. The debate is Over.

Ancient Egypt is Black African inside all the language of egypt every hieroglyph of face shows a Black African.

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Posts: 2685 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Firewall:
Ancient Egyptian race controversy
Position of modern scholarship

quote:

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Modern scholars who have studied Ancient Egyptian culture and
population history have responded to the controversy over the race of
the Ancient Egyptians in different ways.
Since the second half of the 20th century, most anthropologists have
rejected the notion of race as having any validity in the study of
human biology. Stuart Tyson Smith writes in the 2001 Oxford
Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt, "Any characterization of race of the
ancient Egyptians depends on modern cultural definitions, not on
scientific study. Thus, by modern American standards it is reasonable
to characterize the Egyptians as 'black', while acknowledging the
scientific evidence for the physical diversity of Africans."Frank M.
Snowden asserts "Egyptians, Greeks and Romans attached no special
stigma to the colour of the skin and developed no hierarchical notions
of race whereby highest and lowest positions in the social pyramid
were based on colour." Additionally, typological and hierarchical
models of race have increasingly been rejected by scientists in favour
of models of geographical origin.

It is now largely agreed that Dynastic Egyptians were indigenous to
the Nile area. About 5,000 years ago, the Sahara area dried out, and
part of the indigenous Saharan population retreated east towards the
Nile Valley. In addition, peoples from the Middle East entered the
Nile Valley, bringing with them wheat, barley, sheep, goats, and
possibly cattle.Dynastic Egyptians referred to their country as "The
Two Lands". During the Predynastic period (about 4800 to 4300BC), the
Merimde culture flourished in the northern part of Egypt (Lower
Egypt). This culture, among others, has links to the Levant in
the Middle East.The pottery of the later Buto Maadi culture, best
known from the site at Maadi near Cairo, also shows connections to
the southern Levant as well. In the southern part of Egypt (Upper
Egypt), the predynastic Badarian culture was followed by the Naqada
culture. These people seem to be more closely related to the Nubians
than with northern Egyptians.

Due to its geographical location at the crossroads of several major
cultural areas, Egypt has experienced a number of foreign invasions
during historical times, including by the Canaanites (Hyksos), the
Ancient Libyans, the Nubians, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the
Persians, the Macedonian Greeks, the Romans (Byzantium in late
antiquity/early Middle Ages), the Arabs, the Turks, and the British.

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The Black Africans nearest the Ancient Egyptians were Nubians who lived in the exact same geographic and environmental conditions as the Ancient Egyptians. Ancient Egypt was a Nilotic Saharan population indigenous to that region, in the same way that the NUbians were. The studies of the osteology of Ancient Egyptians show that so called Nubians and Ancient Egyptians were more similar to each other than anyone else. Here is the definitive study done by Keita: A brief review of studies and comments on ancient Egyptian biological relationships - Springer
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF02444602#page-1
Here is a map of the population history of Ancient Egypt from the pre-dynastic age to the dynastic era. It shows the sources of population for Ancient Egypt:

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w513/Amunratheultimate/Misc/Climate-controlledoccupationintheEasternSaharaduringthemain.jpg

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"The ancient Egyptians were not 'white' in any European sense, nor were they 'Caucasian'... we can say that the earliest population of ancient Egypt included African people from the upper Nile, African people from the regions of the Sahara and modern Libya, and smaller numbers of people who had come from south-western Asia and perhaps the Arabian penisula."
--Robert Morkot (2005). The Egyptians: An Introduction. pp. 12-13

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The first egyptians look black and over time there were some that were white and brown in ancient times and the middle ages but most remain black. Anyway most egyptians today look brown,but there are large number that still black looking. Some egyptians today are white looking as well. By the way the civilization of the native egyptians is black and of african origin.

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Hi Firewall, The controversy is over.

The Ancient Egyptians themselves answered the question, With a hieroglyph for Face being Black African:



We Won the debate, Ancient Egypt is Black African

Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:

quote:

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Originally posted by KING:
Buddy, Give it up.

The hieroglyph is the language of Ancient Egypt, and all signs of these hieroglphs for face shows a Black African.

DNA cannot prove a thing. The debate is Over.

Ancient Egypt is Black African inside all the language of egypt every hieroglyph of face shows a Black African.

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DNA says a lot about heritage and what other populations a population is related too. Egypts ancient DNA history is still poorly researched and in a future I am sure we will learn more about ancient Egypt and the variations of its population, over time and geographically.

By the way: Have you yourself been to Egypt and looked at ancient art yourself? Have you looked at the people in todays Egypt and studied the variation among people living there? [/QB]

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The people living there today is majority not linked to the Ancient Egyptians.

Modern Egypt is not linked to Ancient Egypt, only the southern aswan are linked.

AfroAmericans are linked to the Ancient Egypts because they fit the profile of the hieroglph for face:

Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Have you yourself been to Egypt and looked at ancient art yourself? Have you looked at the people in todays Egypt and studied the variation among people living there?

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The debate is over.

We won.

Ancient Egypt is related to Black Africans:

Hieroglyphs for Face is a Black African:

Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Seems you not been in Egypt, otherwise you would have answered the question. Seems not to be any idea to discuss the subject with you. You are no expert. I rather listen to experts than someone who have not done any deeper studies of ancient Egypt.

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The experts say that the Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphs for face is a Black African:

Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Does that mean that ALL ancient Egyptians, during 3000 years looked like that hieroglyph?

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It Means that Ancient Egypt is a Black African Country and that was the face of the average Egyptian black African.

Ancient Egyptian hieroglphs language for faces is a Black African

Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Well, you believe what you want. I will wait for more DNA results from different time periods before I try to assess the demographic composition of ancient Egypt. A hieroglyph is not good enough for me.

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The Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphs better be good enough for you, because that is The Ancient Egyptians own words.

THATS A SLAP INSIDE THE FACE TO ANCIENT EGYPTIANS

to think you can have DNA Tell you what to think when the Ancient Egyptians Told you they are Black Africans.

ALL ANCIENT EGYPTIAN HIEROGLPHS LANGUAGE FOR FACE IS A BLACK AFRICAN

Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Well, you believe what you want. I will wait for more DNA results from different time periods before I try to assess the demographic composition of ancient Egypt. A hieroglyph is not good enough for me.

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You make no sense, what can modern people tell you THAT THE ANCIENT EGYPTIANS HAVE NOT ALREADY TOLD YOU THEY ARE BLACK AFRICAN:

Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
You are free to believe what you want. I will wait for more DNA results from different time periods before I try to assess the demographic composition of ancient Egypt. A hieroglyph is not good enough for me.

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What dont you understand, YOU AND YOUR CULTURE THIEFS WHITE PEOPLE HAVE LOST.

Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs for Face is a Black African:

Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
As I said, you are free to believe what you want. I will wait for more DNA results from different time periods before I try to assess the demographic composition of ancient Egypt. A hieroglyph is not good enough for me.

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No matter the time span of Egypt, the hieroglphs of face is a Black African:



the Egyptian Hieroglyphs is the Language of Egypt. its of the face where we see the hieroglyphs and it is Black African

Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
You are free to believe what you want. I will wait for more DNA results from different time periods before I try to assess the demographic composition of ancient Egypt. A hieroglyph is not good enough for me.

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No Need to wait, the Ancient Egyptians already explained and they said they are Black Africans:



The ancient Egyptians hieroglyphs for face is a Black African

Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
You are free to believe what you want. I will wait for more DNA results from different time periods before I try to assess the demographic composition of ancient Egypt. A hieroglyph is not good enough for me.

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This is Real News the Ancient Egyptians are linked with Black Africa and the hieroglyphs have spoken and showed a face of a Black African as the average Egyptian:

Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
You are free to believe what you want. I will wait for more DNA results from different time periods before I try to assess the demographic composition of ancient Egypt. A hieroglyph is not good enough for me.

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Hieroglyphs is what the Ancient Egyptians spoke inside, that was their language.

And inside their language they looked like Black Africans:

Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
You are free to believe what you want. I will wait for more DNA results from different time periods before I try to assess the demographic composition of ancient Egypt. A hieroglyph is not good enough for me.

I prefer science before propaganda.

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Dude, face the facts Ancient Egyptians are Black African it is posted so much that none can forget.


Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphs for face is Black African

Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
Dude You are free to believe what you want. I will wait for more DNA results from different time periods before I try to assess the demographic composition of ancient Egypt. A hieroglyph is not good enough for me.

I prefer science before propaganda.

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Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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S.O.Y. Keita, a biological anthropologist, conducted a study on First Dynasty crania from the royal tombs in Abydos and noted the predominant pattern was "Southern" or a "tropical African variant" (although others were also observed) that had affinities with Kerma Kushites. The general results demonstrate greater affinity with Upper Nile Valley groups, but also suggest clear change from earlier craniometric trends. The gene flow and movement of northern officials to the important southern city may explain the findings.[10]

Source wikipedia

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Dental trait analysis of fossils dating from the Meroitic period in Semna, in northern Nubia near Egypt, found that they displayed traits similar to those of populations inhabiting the Nile, Horn of Africa, and Maghreb. Traits from mesolithic and southern Nubia around Meroe however indicated a closer affinity with other sub-Saharan dental records. It is indicative of a north–south gradient along the Nile river.[28]

Source wikipedia

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Posts: 2560 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012  |  IP: Logged | 

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Between Afrocentrism and Arabness: Netflix's Queen Cleopatra and Hollywood's problem with colourism

Mahdi El Amin, June, 2023

Netflix's docuseries Queen Cleopatra has been met with criticism for casting a black actress as the Egyptian queen. The platform's decision to appease Afrocentric beliefs surrounding Cleopatra has brought the issue of colourism back into the fray.

On May 11 Netflix premiered the new docuseries Queen Cleopatra starring black actress Adele James as the Pharaonic Queen of Egypt.

The decision to cast a black actress has been met with large-scale criticism and accusations of falsifying history.

Furthermore, it shined a light on Hollywood's double standard on Arab representation, since Hollywood has become more culturally sensitive over the past decade but that same treatment hasn’t spread towards Arabs.

Conversely, some of the backlash the show received from Egyptian and Arab viewers calls into question whether there are in fact racial motivations behind their anger.

"Hollywood’s Afrocentric approach to African and African-American representation and its history of colourism has been put under the spotlight"
The racial background of Cleopatra VII, the last queen of Egypt, remains a mystery to this day. However, what has been generally agreed upon by scholars is that she is of Greek ancestry with some Persian and Sogdian Iranian ancestry as a result of her Macedonian Greek family intermarrying with the Seleucid dynasty. It is unlikely that she was black.

Despite that, the interviewed individuals in Netflix’s docuseries confidently claimed that she was. And since the series also included dramatic recreations, Hollywood’s Afrocentric approach to African and African-American representation and its history of colourism has been put under the spotlight.

Afrocentrism

Afrocentrism is a pan-African approach to the study of African culture, philosophy, and history.

African American followers of this school of thought believe that their worldview should reflect African values. Criticisms of Hollywood’s applications of Afrocentrism are the generalisation of African cultures and regions.

During an interview with Piers Morgan, Egyptian journalist and satirist Bassem Youssef pointed out how Queen Cleopatra and the writing team behind it failed to distinguish between West African and North African history as well as ethnicity. He also emphasised the importance of respecting civilizations’ ethnicities and history in preserving relationships instead of lumping them into one big group.


In an interview with Variety magazine, Tina Gharavi, the director of Queen Cleopatra, claimed that the decision to cast a black actress was in an attempt to correct the course of whitewashing in Hollywood’s history and diversifying the image of history in current and future generations of viewers.

In the same interview, she said that her version of Cleopatra is a re-imagined one, which is misleading considering the series is labelled and filmed as a documentary.

Colourism

Afrocentrism is part of a broader case of Hollywood’s failure to distinguish between people of colour. Hollywood is quite often accused of “colourism”, the discrimination based on skin colour, specifically when they cast an actor of a certain race or ethnicity to play a character or a role that is of a different race.

This also applies to African-American actors of a lighter tone getting more roles than those with darker tones. Popular examples include the Marvel characters Storm, fictionally of Kenyan descent, with dark skin being portrayed by biracial actresses Halle Berry and Alexandra Shipp in the live-action X-Men movies, and The Ancient One who is fictionally from somewhere around the Himalayas portrayed by white actress Tilda Swinton.

What is called into question as a result of the Queen Cleopatra controversy is Hollywood casting actors of colour to play characters of a different “colour”, specifically Arabs.

An example of this is Oscar Isaac, a Latino actor, portraying the X-Men villain Apocalypse and the titular hero in Marvel’s Moon Knight. While both these characters’ fictional origins vary throughout their publication histories and are not necessarily or explicitly Arabs, it definitely makes canonical sense for them to be and would’ve been an appropriate place for Arab representation, an area in which Marvel has underperformed in so far, but they instead opted to hire Isaac despite neither character ever being depicted as Latino in either comics or live action.

In fact, depicting them as Arabs would’ve been an act of correcting whitewashing made in the past.

Arab misrepresentation

Despite not casting an Arab for the main role, Marvel’s Moon Knight did take many good steps in their attempt at Arab representation. They had a mainly Arab production team including Egyptian screenwriter and director Mohamed Diab and Egyptian-Palestinian actress May Calamawy as the Marvel Cinematic Universe’s first Arab superhero The Scarlet Scarab.

With that being said, for a show that is centred around Egyptology and takes place in Egypt for a good number of episodes, the main cast did desperately lack more Middle Eastern and North African actors.

Moreover, the entire show only had a handful of Arabic words and phrases being spoken, while much of the dialogue in Marvel’s Shang Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, which was released the year prior, was in Mandarin Chinese. This demonstrates that less effort was put into Arab representation.

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Posts: 2685 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020  |  IP: Logged | 

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This also applies to African-American actors of a lighter tone getting more roles than those with darker tones.

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You're still not getting the issue, but I've said what I had to say. I'm done with this conversation because it just goes nowhere.

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The fact is Hollywood movies are still largely dominated by dark skinned black actors and actresses when compared to their light skinned counterparts. You can see that in nominations for oscars, golden globes and sag awards.

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Kayla Cole and Oyin Olubayo you both incorrect about what types of black families are shown on tv in america on average.There are more dark or darker skin families shown on tv in america then light skin blacks.Dark skin blacks are the majority of blacks in america.

Now over times light skin and bi-racial black light skin families have been shown more often then they were in the past but dark skin blacks have been shown more still in american beauty commercials and tv shows and are still shown more in america.
Some of those american black families shows would show dark skin,medium tone or light skin family members,so there are black family shows that have shown dark and to light in the same family sometimes too.
Black lightning is a recent black family superhero show by the way and all the family members are dark skin or let me put this way,none are light skin.

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​ flexhenry3 TEYONAH PARRIS Cast as the Adult MONICA RAMBEAU .This actress is dark skinned too.
https://www.newsarama.com/46187-teyonah-parris-cast-as-the-adult-monica-rambeau.html

So there are plenty of dark skin actors in roles in Hollywood.You tend see more black medium tone and black light skin women more then medium tone and light skin black men but most of the black actresss are dark skin.You tend see more dark skin black men then dark skin women however in Hollywood roles.


Dark skin black american actresses still get most of THE roles in america.
So yes there is still colorism to a certain extent in hollywood because hollywood is in america(this should be obvious because of america's race history problems and whites are still the major group, duh) and that needs still to be dealt with but don't go overboard to say it's in full effect because it's not.Most black actors are still dark skin,more so the men however.

Lighter and medium tone skin actresses are just happening to apply more for roles and more are being qualified for it but most of the actresses still in hollywood are dark skinned.By the way some actresses and actors you are calling light skin are not really light skin at all.Some are medium tone skin blacks.

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This also applies to African-American actors of a lighter tone getting more roles than those with darker tones. Popular examples include the Marvel characters Storm, fictionally of Kenyan descent, with dark skin being portrayed by biracial actresses Halle Berry and Alexandra Shipp in the live-action X-Men movies,

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and The Ancient One who is fictionally from somewhere around the Himalayas portrayed by white actress Tilda Swinton.

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Posts: 2560 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012  |  IP: Logged | 

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Hollywood need to change which actors play Ancient Egyptians

African Egyptians looked more like Lawrence Fishburne than Christian Bale

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One commenter thinks it a stretch to let Nazlet Khater represent all ancient Egyptians

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Extremely deceptive article.
This individual is not from the Nile valley, where the ancient Egyptian agricultural society began in the neolithic era. This is a hunter-gatherer from 30,000 years ago and was found in a totally different part of what is modern day Egypt.
Having said that, ancient Egyptians did not look like Christian Bale either

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Posts: 2685 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
In response to what Archaeopteryx posted, the funny thing about "Arabness" as it pertains to ancient Egypt is that it doesn't exist. 'Arabs' one can argue only showed up during the Islamic Period. One can argue for an Asiatic presence well before that but not 'Arab' per say. As for 'North Africaness' that to me is the REAL issue. You have indigenous North Africans right there, yet in many of these movie and TV productions on ancient Egypt (including the BBC) they purposely go out of their way to hire fair-skinned Afrangi (Arab and otherwise) to portray the roles of ancient Egyptians when there are plenty of Baladi who can play the part.

It's like using Mestizas with Europeanized features to play the role of the Aztecs instead of the more pristine Indios in Mexico who still speak Nahuatl (Aztec language) and actually look the part. I've always found it ridiculous. And again, I don't know if he was the first but Discovery director Matthew Wortman deserves some credit for hiring actual dark-skinned North Africans for these parts.

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In the specific case of Cleopatra the makers of the TV series Rome maybe got it better by depicting Cleopatra as light skinned and the local Egyptians as more dark skinned


Cleopatra in the HBO TV series Rome


Egyptian population in Rome

About Cleopatra in the TV series Rome

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Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist

Posts: 2685 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Firewall:
This person forgets that whites were raceswapped too in the comicbook shows and movies with asians,blacks etc..

In fact in the eternals movies sersi was race swapped and in the comics she was original white,now she is eastasian looking in the mcu and east asian now in the comics.

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Yes, some classic DC figures have also changed color, like Batwoman and Robin who originally were white



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Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist

Posts: 2685 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:

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Originally posted by Firewall:
This person forgets that whites were raceswapped too in the comicbook shows and movies with asians,blacks etc..

In fact in the eternals movies sersi was race swapped and in the comics she was original white,now she is eastasian looking in the mcu and east asian now in the comics.

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Yes, some classic DC figures have also changed color, like Batwoman and Robin who originally were white

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Posts: 2560 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Archeopteryx:

Now they managed to drag also the Nazlet Khater man into the debate about Hollywoods casting of actors to play ancient Egyptians

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Hollywood need to change which actors play Ancient Egyptians

African Egyptians looked more like Lawrence Fishburne than Christian Bale

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One commenter thinks it a stretch to let Nazlet Khater represent all ancient Egyptians

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Extremely deceptive article.
This individual is not from the Nile valley, where the ancient Egyptian agricultural society began in the neolithic era. This is a hunter-gatherer from 30,000 years ago and was found in a totally different part of what is modern day Egypt.
Having said that, ancient Egyptians did not look like Christian Bale either

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Hollywood need to change which actors play Ancient Egyptians

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In the specific case of Cleopatra the makers of the TV series Rome maybe got it better by depicting Cleopatra as light skinned and the local Egyptians as more dark skinned


Cleopatra in the HBO TV series Rome


Egyptian population in Rome

About Cleopatra in the TV series Rome

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Posts: 26249 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Firewall:
he new batwoman was not raceswapped and the white one was still in the show.
She is just a new batwoman characters.
The white is Kate kane.
The black one Ryan Wilder and she is in comics now because of the show.

Now the female Robin shown in the picture above is a raceswapped Carrie Kelley.
She white in the comics,animation etc..but black in the live action dc show gotham knights.

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Yes I saw the Batwoman TV series.

Seems they also changed the sexual preferences of Batwoman, both the white and black ones in the TV series Batwoman. There was a time long ago when her highest desire was to marry Batman. Times change.



Batwoman, Batman and Robin in Detective comics 1956

Ironically Batwoman was created to:

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She was created by writer Edmond Hamilton and artist Sheldon Moldoff under the direction of editor Jack Schiff, as part of an ongoing effort to expand Batman's cast of supporting characters. Batwoman began appearing in DC Comics stories beginning with Detective Comics #233 (1956), in which she was introduced as a love interest for Batman in order to combat the allegations of Batman's homosexuality arising from the controversial book Seduction of the Innocent (1954).

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Posts: 2685 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ All this race-swapping which by the way only goes in one direction of black-painting is at best lazy. At worst it is a very subtle or subliminal form of white supremacy. That's because they don't think there is any value to original black characters of which there are plenty of. They only value black characters who derive their identity from white originals.

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Posts: 2685 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020  |  IP: Logged | 

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I OFFICIALLY take back everything I said about Marvel's diversity push. With them giving non-white characters titles that use to belong to white characters. For example the Hulk or Iron man. Before I thought it was lazy on Marvel's push when they should be pushing the minority characters they ALREADY HAVE But... JESUS CHRIST..... Reading through Comicvine that site has become the comicbook site for alt righters. I hope Marvel keeps doing what they are doing to make these clowns angry. Who needs readers like them? I'm sorry of this post is dramatic.
Lastly you can tell its not just about white characters turning non-white. No they just dont wanna see non-white characters at all! With them constantly complaining about the Black Panther film.
http://community.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?596-The-Minority-Report!-Diversity-In-The-MU/page257
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Sutekh quote-
Indeed, it was the early 'diversity push' that resulted in the creation of characters like Storm and Cyborg that led to the biggest sales numbers seen in my lifetime, and, I'm sure, there was some Archie Bunker-type complaining about why there had to be a black person shoved down their throat on the Teen Titans or X-Men.
http://community.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?100159-Generations-The-Thunder-REVIEW-and-SPOILERS/page9
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Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
Sure, MM totally didn't seem like an afterthought, that's why for 50 years he didn't get a single long-lasting standalone book. Compare MM's treatment over the years to the way even the "secondary" original members like Aquaman or Flash have been treated and he starts to looks like an afterthought very fast.
You're correct about Marvel, as compared to DC's treatment of Cyborg, they absolutely treated minority characters like Sam or Miles much better, but often at the expense of their "classic" characters and alienated lots fans in the process. In any event, Cyborg could "fit" the JL just as good as J'onn did, as long as DC made the effort to do so. It's just a shame they seemingly didn't give it much thought sooner than they did.
I'm also curious what would happen post-Rebirth. Is Vic still going to be a founding JL member, Wally did remember him when he was trapped in the speed force. If his TT past is restored, would they just put him in the Titans book and bring J'onn back to the JL.
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Quote Originally Posted by BradleyFan
I prefer Marvel's way to DC's way any day of the week. Comic fans will always be upset about something being changed from the status quo. And if you add a nonwhite character to the mix, they'll get even more upset. When Cyborg was first brought onto the Justice League, people said over and over again that his inclusion was "forced" and "stupid" and DC was just trying to be PC, and those were the exact same comments that people said about Miles, and Sam Wilson and and Kamala Kahn, and all the other nonwhite heroes.
The difference between Cyborg and the others? The others were pushed to the forefront and supported regardless of Comic fans' disapproval. People are going to have a problem with nonwhite heroes, no matter how you introduce them. And if you work to ensure that you're customer base is comfortable with these new nonwhite heroes, the property you're trying to support won't get any support at all. Marvel may have alienated some fans, but I like that they're working hard to make their property inclusive.
Honestly, if those comic fans don't want these minority heroes taking the mantles of established white heroes, they should be the ones buying books like Cyborg...
Cyborg a-k-a Vic Stone Appreciation
Cyborg-(a-k-a-Vic-Stone)-Appreciation-REDUX!!!!!!/page159

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Posts: 2560 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012  |  IP: Logged | 

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Let's keep mind there are eternals who are diverse(i seen the marvel wiki list) but most of the most known ones before the new recent comics and mcu movie were not poc and women.

The eternals who are diverse and less known before recent comics and the new movie could have replaced the more known ones who are not women and poc but they decide not to that and they change the race/gender swap some of more famous ones.

They did that for some of the inhumans royal family in the inhumans show but they are inhumans who are women and poc who are not in royal family in comics.

DC has done more race and gender swapping in comics and live action then marvel by the way(rebooting characters over and over again etc..)

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Posts: 2560 | From: Somewhere | Registered: May 2012  |  IP: Logged |