quote:Originally posted by the lion: but the Tishkoff study was placing the Beja at a bout 32% European
That is somewhat true. But not totally. As the study says when your read the FULL THING, They could not tell the difference between some of that blue cluster that is "Eurasian" and some of that blue cluster that is actually African.
Pay attention to these 3 populations in the study: Dogon Mozabite Beja
When looking at the worldwide sample that "Eurasian" Blue cluster is mostly found in the: Mozabite 60% Beja 31-33% Dogon 45%
Now when looking at the same populations MINUS the Eurasians that SAME Cluster shows as: Mozabite 51% Beja 18-21% Dogon 55%
Seeing that a cluster that is Eurasia and/or Africa is found HIGHEST in an African group of Black people can tell you SOMETHING about its affinity. That is why its is called the "Dogon Cluster" and not the Mozabite Cluster. This tells you some of the Blue cluster found in the Dogon is African and some is Eurasian, this goes the same for all other African groups listed in the study. I dont know if we can quantify how much exactly in neat percentages. What we CAN DO is look at what Uniparental makers are found in the Dogon that could trace the hypothetical "Eurasian" migration to account for the Blue Cluster....there is little. This is not quite the case for the Mozabite or the Beja.
The question you should ask yourself is based on the findings of this study Where do you think Egyptian samples would fit it? It is quite clear they would be primarily of the "Cushitic" cluster which is what people have been saying.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by the lion: but the Tishkoff study was placing the Beja at a bout 32% European
"In a related matter, the Beja samples were implicated in some ~ 32% and ~ 34% AACs [the Banuamir and Hadandawa samples respectively] placed under "European" [see: Table S8 of the journal]. Well, to the extent that ancestry suggestive of "possible" European origin has been implicated in a Beja sample before, it is reasonable to assume that this may render a section of the Beja to display shared clusters with Europeans in a segment of nuclear DNA that is outside uniparental binary markers; however, it is worth noting that the uniparental gene pool, the paternally-inherited one in particular, featured fairly low incidence of ancestry suggestive of ultimate European ancestry. Citing Hassan et al. (2008), the Beja male gene pool comprised of only ~ 5% ancestry that could *potentially* be linked to European origin [Hassan et al. (2008)"
"So, the 32 or so % of microsatellite AAC linked to a possible European origin is out of character, when uniparental ancestry information is taken into account."
note: the scientist most likely had a hard time distinguishing between true Eurasian blue and African ( ancestral) blue.
Therefore it's more then likley that most of the blue associated with Eurasia,amoung the three Saharan groups, the Dogon, the Mozambite, and the Beja are that of the indigenous Saharo-Sudanic ancestral group that eventually gave rise to the younger Eurasian specific group.
The Dogon, the Mozambite and the Beja, previous tests have linked them to ancestral Saharan groups, so the blue repersented in their gene-pool is likely that of an ancestral Saharo-Sudanic group.
The Dogon ALWAYS cluster with other West/Central/Saharo-Sudanic Africans, while the Beja cluster with various Africna groups along the Sahel-Saharo and Nile Valley/Horn of Africa.
The Mozambite, unlike what some posters have stated, are a very good repersentation for the general North African population, being predomiantely African with a significant Eursian component, clustering between the two extremes.
Basically they simply lumped the ancestral "Saharan/Dogon" sample with the "European" sample, due to the fact that it would have had been difficult to diverge the two clusters.
1) "indigenous" European
2) lineages found among Europeans and Southwest Asians due to AFRICAN gene-flow in particular Neolithic gene-flow, which are therefor shared between these non-Africans and some Africans. The other Africans who possessed large amounts of "blue" were the Dogon and the Mozabite. The Dogon's case is identical to that of the Beja, while the "blue" found among the Mozabite is likely that of both direct European admixture and them carrying "ancestral" lineages. In the Beja "direct non-African" admixture is less than 5%, even lower among the Dogon.
Europeans, Southwest Asians, and other related Western Eurasian groups are about 1/3 recent or post-Out of Africa migration African. About 33%, therefore being that both the Dogon and the Beja are Saharan, they would possess the ancestral lineages that left Africa and mixed with the already present "Asian-Out of Africa" derived populations in Western Eurasia, i.e. Europe and Southwestern Asia.
It's made obvious in that the Tishkoff study labels the same coluor "blue" as "European" and "Saharan/Dogon" seperately.
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During my time in studying anthropological and genetic studies on Africa it seems to me that rather than test a hypothesis to for truth and multiple explanations it seems as though the authors already a priori have their conclusions and tailor and use their studies to prove. In that regard, it seems as though these studies seem intent on justifying and bringing back the long dead Hamitic Hypothesis though the scholars themselves who conduct these studies vehemently deny and reject the Hamitic Hypothesis in word.
When so called "non-African" genetic lineages are found in an African population the authors of the studies always seem to want to connect it to the introduction of some kind of technology or spread of language and or farming and stubbornly rule out all other alternatives including the possibility that the said lineages originated in Africa; the recent papers on R-V88 and R1*-M173 are examples of this, except for the presence of these lineages themselves there is nothing else that proves a migration of Eurasians into the heart of central Africa, the so called migrants left nothing behind indicating a migration. Ditto for M1 and U6 who's alleged time of back migration overlaps strongly with migrations out of Africa. Thus in the eyes of these scholars, Africa was mainly a recipient of foreign lineages but not a donor of lineages except for slavery and the initial OOA migration.
Now on the flip side, Y haplogroup E3b has anthropological and archaeological evidence to back such a migration yet none of the geneticists write of a bonafide migration of Africans into Europe and the Near East; the only "real" evidence of an African presence in Europe and the Near East comes from the slave trade and the first dispersals of modern humans OOA, as if there were no more dispersals after the initial OOA wave.
Do we need to get together and composed an email to one of these geneticists to get some feedback on the above points raised? Keita in his studies has raised similar points about the flawed approaches to studying Africans so the points raised so nothing new is being rally said, maybe its up to some of use to bring this up to these geneticists and anthropologists who write these studies.
-------------------- Doctoris Scientia Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
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Here's some infromation on the Afrasan speaking.
It is a fallacy to interpret the "Saharan/Dogon" (blue) cluster in the Tishkoff study as a full blown Non-African cluster.The "Saharan/Dogon" cluster increases in Frequency going from East Africa to North Africa, while the "Cushitic" (purple) cluster decreases going from East Africa to Northern/Western Africa. To demonstrate, you can see below the frequencies arranged in descending order for both the "Saharan/Dogon" (Blue) and "Cushitic" (Purple) cluster in all the Afroasiatic populations sampled by Tishkoff.
We see, that it is with the Beta Israel (from Northern Ethiopia) that the frequencies of the 2 clusters start to Converge in frequency, where the Beta Israel are reported to have 17% of the "Saharan/Dogon" cluster and 68.1% of the "Cushitic" cluster, we however know from other studies that reviewed the NRY and mtDNA of the Beta Israel that they are one of the most indigenous populations in Africa, so we simply can not say how much of that 17% is due to an element of the Beta Israel being descended from the OOA populations and how much of it is due to a truly extra African influence, we do however know that the general area in the horn was the "launching pad" of the OOA populations, therefore it is a complete fallacy to assume that all of the "Saharan/Dogon" (blue) cluster found in the horn or any where in Africa is due to a Non-African or as some people like to say "Eurasian" influence.
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This study all destroys the whole theory that R back-migrated into Africa.
Chadic speakers have the highest levels of R in Africa, some reaching +90%. But according to the recent Tishkoff study, Chadic speakers have little to no blue at all... therefore lacking any ancestral Saharan and/or Eurasian admixture.
"As another poster brought up, the fact that Chadic speakers have high frequencies of a maker deemed "Eurasian" : R1 but have little "Eurasian Blue" yet cluster with Southern Sudan / Central Sudanic + forms their OWN cluster is very telling about the coalescence location of such Chadic speakers themselves. And also how Eurasian Blue is/was NOT spread."
-------------------- Doctoris Scientia Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
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That is from the Global Unsupervised Structure Run at K=14, what the map from the published paper that everybody on here is referring to is for the African structure run at K=14 (optimal) , and what that shows for the Mozabites is: Saharan /Dogon 51% Cushitic 35.2% Niger Kordofanian 6.1% Fulani 1.9% While the remaining 5.8% is divided into the remaining 10 clusters, with not a single cluster being in excess of 1.3%.
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Doc, does Tishkoff et all make this distinction you are making "Eurasian Blue" and "African Blue" in the study ? Is this difference indicated in the map color charts?
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There's no traces of any recent or historic maternal gene-flow into Ethiopia or the Horn of Africa.
As if the question of M1's origin has been finalized.
It is still quote debatable.
Science is never about finalization, nothing is ever fully finalized.
Thats a bit silly. The debate over flat earth has been finalized. Earth at the center of our solar system - finalized. Plenty of debates have been ended.
M1 is not one of them.
In regard to that arguements will continue to surface on particular subjects, especially in regard to genetics.
The fact is... the arguement on the origin in regard to M1 and N still contradicts your theory.
1) M1 and N originated in a geographical area in Africa among the local descendants of the OOA.
or 2) M1 and N originated in a small group of AFRICANS who had just left Africa, in which some quickly returned still being biologically speaking AFRICAN.
No one, other than you, is suggesting a recent or historic migration of M1, N, or any other haplogroup into Ethiopia.
Like I said, it most likely originated in Africa, in due part because both M1 and N have a date range that predates the OOA migration. N(71,000 years old) and M1(60,000 years).
And the fact that the Ethiopian gene-pool is solely of African origin trumps your theory:
"The Afrasan speaking Ethiopians sampled were cumulatively (Fig.5B) found to belong to: 71% in the "Cushitic" cluster, 6% in the "Saharan/Dogon" cluster, 5% in the "Niger Kordofanian" cluster, 3% each in the "Nilo-Saharan" and "Chadic Saharan" cluster, while the balance (12%) of their assignment was distributed among the remnant (9) Associated Ancestral Clusters (AAC's) found in Sub-Saharan Africa."
I wouldn't say its a theory it is more or less the history we have been taught for eons. Supported by some obscure evidence but I am willing to learn something new.
Even if I did find the inscriptions I have been looking for, I hae yet to find evidence of a Yemeni migration that would result in the Amhara being 1/2 non-African. A non-mixed Amhara group is interesting. It is the way they have acted for hundreds of years. They have long claimed to be Sabeans. I guess its like Beta Israel - they seem to not be Jews after all - the Bubba clan has more Jew in them.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by the lion: Doc, does Tishkoff et all make this distinction you are making "Eurasian Blue" and "African Blue" in the study ? Is this difference indicated in the map color charts?
Yes, it does. Thats why the team who took part in the study labeled blue in regards to Africa as "Saharan/Dogon" and blue in regards to Eurasia as "European" < whatever that means, "Southwest Asian" is much more accurate since Europe had little influence on any human gene-pool, even it's own.
In regards to colour? no, but they do indicate the general amount of both blue's found in Africa. With the African ancestral "Saharan/Dogon" being the most prominent, even among the light skin, "typical" Northern Saharan/Coastal North African Mozabite. The Mozabite according to the study are predomiantly African. Even if you disgarded blue being both ancestral African and "European"... the Mozabite would have had been typical "mulattos" genetically, i.e. 49% being non-"Saharan/Dogon" African. Out of the 51% labeled as "Saharan/Dogon"... most of it's African. Mozabite are therefore about 80% African.
There's no traces of any recent or historic maternal gene-flow into Ethiopia or the Horn of Africa.
As if the question of M1's origin has been finalized.
It is still quote debatable.
Science is never about finalization, nothing is ever fully finalized.
Thats a bit silly. The debate over flat earth has been finalized. Earth at the center of our solar system - finalized. Plenty of debates have been ended.
M1 is not one of them.
In regard to that arguements will continue to surface on particular subjects, especially in regard to genetics.
The fact is... the arguement on the origin in regard to M1 and N still contradicts your theory.
1) M1 and N originated in a geographical area in Africa among the local descendants of the OOA.
or 2) M1 and N originated in a small group of AFRICANS who had just left Africa, in which some quickly returned still being biologically speaking AFRICAN.
No one, other than you, is suggesting a recent or historic migration of M1, N, or any other haplogroup into Ethiopia.
Like I said, it most likely originated in Africa, in due part because both M1 and N have a date range that predates the OOA migration. N(71,000 years old) and M1(60,000 years).
And the fact that the Ethiopian gene-pool is solely of African origin trumps your theory:
"The Afrasan speaking Ethiopians sampled were cumulatively (Fig.5B) found to belong to: 71% in the "Cushitic" cluster, 6% in the "Saharan/Dogon" cluster, 5% in the "Niger Kordofanian" cluster, 3% each in the "Nilo-Saharan" and "Chadic Saharan" cluster, while the balance (12%) of their assignment was distributed among the remnant (9) Associated Ancestral Clusters (AAC's) found in Sub-Saharan Africa."
I wouldn't say its a theory it is more or less the history we have been taught for eons. Supported by some obscure evidence but I am willing to learn something new.
Even if I did find the inscriptions I have been looking for, I hae yet to find evidence of a Yemeni migration that would result in the Amhara being 1/2 non-African. A non-mixed Amhara group is interesting. It is the way they have acted for hundreds of years. They have long claimed to be Sabeans. I guess its like Beta Israel - they seem to not be Jews after all - the Bubba clan has more Jew in them.
*Shrugs*, to bad they're not!
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Doctoris much thanks, I really appreciate you taking the time breaking things down so nicely where the average guy can really comprehend what's going on...
-------------------- I use to live in a room full of mirrors; all I could see was me. I take my spirit and I crash my mirrors, now the whole world is here for me to see. "Jimi Hendrix" Posts: 95 | Registered: May 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Peregrine: Doctoris much thanks, I really appreciate you taking the time breaking things down so nicely where the average guy can really comprehend what's going on...
Your welcome, thats the problem with some posters, some of them simply post studies without actually trying to understand the context behind those same studies. Thats a problem in regard to people with biased views, it can really confuse people who do not know better. These studies are about 90% word-play and 10% science, you simply have to shed the extra baggage.
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Horn Africans do indeed have similar features to the ancient Egyptians, but are they necessarily their closest relatives? I'm thinking northern Sudanese populations such as the Beja and Nubians might be closer---they are, after all, just upriver of Egypt.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Horn Africans do indeed have similar features to the ancient Egyptians, but are they necessarily their closest relatives? I'm thinking northern Sudanese populations such as the Beja and Nubians might be closer---they are, after all, just upriver of Egypt.
True, the Ancient Egyptians were of Central Saahran (Ancestors of contemporary West Africans), Central Sudanic, Eastern Sudanese-Eritrean, and indigenous groups who were likely of mixed Afrasan/Nilo-Saharan ancestry of Sudanese extraction.
Horn of Africans are just one segment of their ancestry.
The Nubians and the Beja would have been Egypt's closest relatives in terms of biocultural aspects.
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Always said the Ethiopians and Somalians are overplayed regards to AEians.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Always said the Ethiopians and Somalians are overplayed regards to AEians.
Somewhat, but it depends on the AGE of the relationship you are speaking of. White people always want to play the "BACKWARDS game" when it comes to speaking about Africans so Ethiopians is usually where they end up. The only way they can make claims about Egyptians is to also make them about Sudanese, but then they they work backwards and have to claim Horn Africans who are the ancestral parent group for many of the groups found in Sudan and Egypt. That is why the "Negroid" Nubians when comparing them to Egyptians - All of a sudden are Caucasoid Nubians when looking at the migration people INTO Egypt FROM Sudan..........Or there are nonsense topics about the Eurasian affinity found in the "CUSHITIC" cluster by Tishkoff et al..........or better yet, the Asian origin of Haplogroup DE* and E*
Another thing we have to understand is that some of the People that populated Egypt most recently NO LONGER EXIST in their current form. There are NO large populations living in the Central Sahara, that aspect is pretty much gone. What WOULD be interesting is to see how much "Central Sudanic" "Nilo Saharan" and "Chadic"ancestry would be in Egyptians and other Northern Sudanese Samples if Tishkoff HAD TAKEN ANY. Would their profile look like the "Beja"...........Or would it be more like the "Chad NS" or "Sudan NS"?
Guess we will never know.
Posts: 2463 | From: New Jersey USA | Registered: Dec 2007
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I posted here about a 3months ago from a study on the population of Africa during Dynastic times.
I think the study estinmated that during these time about 2 Million people lived in Africa and about half(1-mil) lived in and aorund AE.
Extrapolating - about half(or more) Africans can claim AEian ancestry. So much for the Samaliods and Ethiopds.
quote:Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia:
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Horn Africans do indeed have similar features to the ancient Egyptians, but are they necessarily their closest relatives? I'm thinking northern Sudanese populations such as the Beja and Nubians might be closer---they are, after all, just upriver of Egypt.
True, the Ancient Egyptians were of Central Saahran (Ancestors of contemporary West Africans), Central Sudanic, Eastern Sudanese-Eritrean, and indigenous groups who were likely of mixed Afrasan/Nilo-Saharan ancestry of Sudanese extraction.
Horn of Africans are just one segment of their ancestry.
The Nubians and the Beja would have been Egypt's closest relatives in terms of biocultural aspects.
Burial practices of the Final Neolithic pastoralists at Gebel Ramlah, Western Desert of Egypt
Michał Kobusiewicz, Jacek Kabaciński, Romuald Schild, Joel D. Irish and Fred Wendorf
During three seasons of research (in 2000, 2001 and 2003) carried out by the Combined Prehistoric Expedition at Gebel Ramlah in the southern part of the Egyptian Western Desert, three separate Final Neolithic cemeteries were discovered and excavated. Skeletal remains of 67 individuals, comprising both primary and secondary interments, were recovered from 32 discrete burial pits. Numerous grave goods were found, including lithics, pottery and ground stone objects, as well as items of personal adornment, pigments, shells and sheets of mica. Imports from distant areas prove far-reaching contacts. Analysis of the finds sheds important light on the burial rituals and social conditions of the Final Neolithic cattle keepers inhabiting Ramlah Playa. This community, dated to the mid-fifth millennium B.C. (calibrated), was composed of a phenotypically diverse population derived from both North and sub-Saharan Africa. *****There were no indications of social differentiation.***** The deteriorating climatic conditions probably forced these people to migrate toward the Nile Valley where they undoubtedly contributed to the birth of ancient Egyptian civilization.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Read the study yourself and YOU interpret the data. It is in the Conclusion section where they BS.
Quote by Doc: These studies are about 90% word-play and 10% science,
. . . .whatever that means, "Southwest Asian" is much more accurate since Europe had little influence on any human gene-pool, *****even it's own****.
Exactly, many of these studies that Eurocentrics like to use as proof for whatever claim they're suggesting actually go against what they're trying to propose, according to the actual data. Your right, conclusions by some authors are mostly if not always fantasies of that particular authors imagination.
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Always said the Ethiopians and Somalians are overplayed regards to AEians.
Somewhat, but it depends on the AGE of the relationship you are speaking of. White people always want to play the "BACKWARDS game" when it comes to speaking about Africans so Ethiopians is usually where they end up. The only way they can make claims about Egyptians is to also make them about Sudanese, but then they they work backwards and have to claim Horn Africans who are the ancestral parent group for many of the groups found in Sudan and Egypt. That is why the "Negroid" Nubians when comparing them to Egyptians - All of a sudden are Caucasoid Nubians when looking at the migration people INTO Egypt FROM Sudan..........Or there are nonsense topics about the Eurasian affinity found in the "CUSHITIC" cluster by Tishkoff et al..........or better yet, the Asian origin of Haplogroup DE* and E*
Another thing we have to understand is that some of the People that populated Egypt most recently NO LONGER EXIST in their current form. There are NO large populations living in the Central Sahara, that aspect is pretty much gone. What WOULD be interesting is to see how much "Central Sudanic" "Nilo Saharan" and "Chadic"ancestry would be in Egyptians and other Northern Sudanese Samples if Tishkoff HAD TAKEN ANY. Would their profile look like the "Beja"...........Or would it be more like the "Chad NS" or "Sudan NS"?
Guess we will never know.
Being that according to more recent studies, Egyptians and Nubians showed ties to atleast three distinct groups of people: Central Saharans who likely had a genetic profile similar to people living in what is today Chad and Niger, Central Sudanics, and East Africans (Horn of Africa). The genetic profile of Egypt and "Nubia" would likely have had possessed a little bit of "Red-Nilotic", "Orange-Niger-Kordafanian", "Purple-Cushitic", and "Blue-Saharan/Dogon". It would have had been very helpful if we had any samples from the Toubou and Kanuri people, who likely represent the best picture into the genetic affinity of the Central Saharans, and other groups who presently live south of the Central Sahara (since that's likely were some of them went after the advancement of the Sahara). But the "Chad NS" seems like a pretty good representative as well, and from the results we got back the Chad Nilo-Saharans seem to have a general affinity to West/Central African Niger-Kordofanian groups, any Toubou results would likely show the same thing. Not to mention the discovery of E3a in both Egypt and "Nubia", 30% in Upper Egypt and 40% in Lower Nubia. The Nilo-Saharan group seems to be extremely diverse, with southern Nilo-Saharans being more related to "Cushitic" and "Niger-Kordofanian" groups, + their ancestral "Nilo-Saharan" ancestry.
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-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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registered May2005 And ask a question like that. No wonder he is one of the village idiots.
Never seen studies up to 30% but have seen lower number for E3a in Egypt.
I posted some studies on ESR and here(ES) awile back.
I believe in some studies E3a was high as 40% in some Sudanese groups.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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The Ancient Egyptians ancestry wasn't just confined to the Horn of Africa as scientists like to believe. Egyptian mummies were buried to the South AND West of Egypt which means the Egyptians were most likely a combination of both West and East African elements, not just Horn of Africa.
It seems like Eurocentrist like to point out the most caucasoid group of Africa and use them to identify what the AE must've looked like.
Remember, the Ancient Egyptians were "tropically adapted" peoples. West Africa lies mostly in the tropics, doesn't it? As far as I can tell, most Horn of Africans craniofacial features have adapted to desert climates, not tropical climates.
There are many oral traditions of certain West African groups that point to an eastern migration (most likely around pre dynastic and early dynastic Upper Egypt)
Have any anthropologists taken into account that modern day Horn of African groups such as Somalis, Amhara, and Tigray have oral traditions that link them to Southern Arabia?
The E3b dna found in Horn of Africa populations can also be found in the Near East such as Yemen and Saudi Arabia, not only East Africa.
Posts: 33 | From: U.S. | Registered: Jun 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Tiye57: Remember, the Ancient Egyptians were "tropically adapted" peoples. West Africa lies mostly in the tropics, doesn't it? As far as I can tell, most Horn of Africans craniofacial features have adapted to desert climates, not tropical climates.
"Tropical" and "desert" are not mutually exclusive. "Tropical" refers either to specific latitudes or a lack of temperature fluctuation throughout the year, whereas "desert" refers simply to low rainfall and has nothing to do with latitude or temperature. There are deserts within the tropics.
Posts: 7071 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Tiye57: The Ancient Egyptians ancestry wasn't just confined to the Horn of Africa as scientists like to believe. Egyptian mummies were buried to the South AND West of Egypt which means the Egyptians were most likely a combination of both West and East African elements, not just Horn of Africa.
It seems like Eurocentrist like to point out the most caucasoid group of Africa and use them to identify what the AE must've looked like.
Remember, the Ancient Egyptians were "tropically adapted" peoples. West Africa lies mostly in the tropics, doesn't it? As far as I can tell, most Horn of Africans craniofacial features have adapted to desert climates, not tropical climates.
There are many oral traditions of certain West African groups that point to an eastern migration (most likely around pre dynastic and early dynastic Upper Egypt)
Have any anthropologists taken into account that modern day Horn of African groups such as Somalis, Amhara, and Tigray have oral traditions that link them to Southern Arabia?
The E3b dna found in Horn of Africa populations can also be found in the Near East such as Yemen and Saudi Arabia, not only East Africa.
quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ E3a in Egypt? Please cite.
In regard to Haplogroup IV.
"Haplotype IV, designating the M2/PN1 subclade, as noted, is found in high frequency in west, central, and sub-equatorial Africa in speakers of Niger-Congo—which may have a special relationship with Nilosaharan—spoken by Nubians; together they might form a superphylum called Kongo-Saharan or Niger-Saharan (see Gregersen 1972, Blench 1995), but this is not fully supported. The spatial distribution of p49a,f TaqI haplotypes in the geographically-widespread speakers of Nilosaharan languages has not been fully characterized, but the notable presence of haplotype IV in Nubians speaking the Eastern Sudanic branch is interesting in that this subgroup is in the Sahelian branch of speakers, whose ancestors may have participated in the domestication of cattle in the eastern Sahara (Ehret 2000, Wendorf and Schild 2001). Sometimes haplotype IV (and the M2 lineage) is seen as being associated with the “Bantu expansion” (2000-3000 bp), but this does not mean that it is not much older, since expansion and origin times cannot be conflated. Haplotype IV has substantial frequencies in upper Egypt and Nubia, greater than VII and VIII, and even V. Bantu languages were never spoken in these regions or Senegal, where M2 is greater than 90 percent in some studies. — Keita, 2005."
"Haplotype IV has a gradient that decreases as one moves from the so-named Upper Nile Valley regions to Lower Egypt, with higher frequencies in "Upper Egypt" and "Lower Nubia" and lower frequencies in "Lower Egypt". Nonetheless, does haplotype IV's presence in Lower Egypt mean that Hg E3a has been detected therein? Well, if Luis et al.'s work of "the Nile Valley corridor vs. the African Horn" is anything to go by, this should come as no surprise; they show that low frequencies of Hg E3a occur in "northern Egypt", which in itself should be instructive, considering that this is the region of the Nile Valley relatively further away from sub-Saharan Africa [where this haplotype predominates]. So, if lower Egypt can show low frequencies of E3a, as verified by Luis et al., then does it not follow that Upper Egypt could and would have this marker, in relatively higher frequencies?"
"On the other hand, haplotype IV is a typical southern haplotype, being almost absent in Lower Egypt (1.2%), and preponderant in Upper Egypt (27.3%) and Lower Nubia (39.1%)."
"Frequencies of haplotype V are 51.9% in the Delta (location A), 24.2% in Upper Egypt (location B), and 17.4% in Lower Nubia (location C)."
"Haplotype XI also shows a preponderance in the south (in Lower Nubia, 30.4%; Upper Egypt, 28.8%) compared to the north (11.7% in Lower Egypt) of the country."
^Haplogroup V and XI = E3b-M78 and E3b-M35 lineages
The spread of Haplogroup E3b(IV) was likely introduced into the Nile Valley from the expansive Central Saharan (West African) groups.
E3b-M35(XI)likely moved westwards into Egypt and Nubia from the Eastern Sudan/Eritrea, among Afrasan speaking groups.
E3b-M78(V) is indigenous to the general area, and it's freguency was likely to have increased with the movement of Central Sudanics, who happen to carry this lineage at very high frequencies, the highest behind ethnic Somalis and Southern Oromos.
"Battaglia et al. (2008) describe Egypt as "a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related sub-clades" and, based on archaeological data, they propose that the point of origin of E-M78 (as opposed to later dispersals from Egypt) may have been in a refugium which "existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC."
"Hassan et al. (2008) in their study observed this to be the most common of the sub-clades of E-M78 found in Sudan, especially among the Beja, Masalit, and Fur. The Beja, like Somalis and Oromos, speak an Afro-Asiatic language and live along the "corridor" from Egypt to the Horn of Africa. Hassan et al. (2008) interpret this as reinforcing the "strong correlation between linguistic and genetic diversity" and signs of relatedness between the Beja and the peoples of the Horn of Africa such as the Amhara and Oromo. On the other hand, the Masalit and Fur live in Darfur and speak a Nilo-Saharan language. The authors observed in their study that "the Masalit possesses by far the highest frequency of the E-M78 and of the E-V32 haplogroup", which they believe suggests "either a recent bottleneck in the population or a proximity to the origin of the haplogroup." Tillmar et al. (2009) in their study 147 males from Somalia were typed for 12 Y-STR loci, 77% (113/147) had typical E1b1b1a1b haplotypes. This is currently the highest frequency of E1b1b1a1b observed in any single sample population."
"E-V12* made up approximately 20% of the Sudanese E-M78."
"Before the discovery of V32, Cruciani et al. (2004) referred to the same lineages as the "gamma cluster", which was estimated to have arisen about 8,500 years ago. They stated that "the highest frequencies in the three Cushitic-speaking groups: the Borana from Kenya (71.4%), the Oromo from Ethiopia (32.0%), and the Somali (52.2%)."
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
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It seems like Eurocentrist like to point out the most caucasoid group of Africa and use them to identify what the AE must've looked like.
Remember, the Ancient Egyptians were "tropically adapted" peoples. West Africa lies mostly in the tropics, doesn't it? As far as I can tell, most Horn of Africans craniofacial features have adapted to desert climates, not tropical climates.
East Africans, i.e. Horn of Africa, have tropically adapted body-plans, and are no way "caucasian", non-African, or "mulatto".
In fact, East Africans have body-plans which are extremely adapted to the Tropics, unlike most West Africans. It dosen't make a difference, since both populations are equally indigenous to Africa, in that they not only share a common ancestor, they have been constantly intertwined since their "divergence" or "diversification".
quote:Originally posted by Tiye57: There are many oral traditions of certain West African groups that point to an eastern migration (most likely around pre dynastic and early dynastic Upper Egypt)
Have any anthropologists taken into account that modern day Horn of African groups such as Somalis, Amhara, and Tigray have oral traditions that link them to Southern Arabia?
The E3b dna found in Horn of Africa populations can also be found in the Near East such as Yemen and Saudi Arabia, not only East Africa.
It's very unlikely that any significant number of people in either West or East Africa have any direct origins in pre-Dynastic or Dynastic Egypt. On the other hand, both groups have confirmed ancestry to ancestral groups which eventually populated the Nile Valley. West Africans have been linked to the Central Saharan population which represented one of the four populations which contributed to the founding and development of Egypt. Therefore any oral traditions linking West Africans to the east can be linked to the Central Saharan population, i.e. Southern Libya, Northern Chad, and Western Egypt. East Africans would on the other hand possess ancestry with the Eastern Sudanese/ Eritrean population and due to common origin, the indigenous Nile Valley population... and both groups would likely possess some affiliation with the Central Sudanics.
DNA and science trumps oral traditions, none of those groups are non-African in any way shape or form; recent or historic non-African admixture accounts for only 2% of the gene-pool of the above groups. And in regard to that, indigenous Southern Arabians have direct and significant linkages to Africa in general, only recently affected by gene-flow from northern Arabians.
Isolated Southern Arabians. Hadhramaut, Tihama, and Socotra.
E3b is found at very low frequencies in Yemen, 10%. Any E3b among Southwest Asians or Europeans is due to African admixture, not the other way around.
And according to the most recent studies, East Africans are 100% African.
"The Afrasan speaking Ethiopians sampled were cumulatively (Fig.5B) found to belong to: 71% in the "Cushitic" cluster, 6% in the "Saharan/Dogon" cluster, 5% in the "Niger Kordofanian" cluster, 3% each in the "Nilo-Saharan" and "Chadic Saharan" cluster, while the balance (12%) of their assignment was distributed among the remnant (9) Associated Ancestral Clusters (AAC's) found in Sub-Saharan Africa."
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ E3a in Egypt? Please cite.
In regard to Haplogroup IV.
"Haplotype IV, designating the M2/PN1 subclade, as noted, is found in high frequency in west, central, and sub-equatorial Africa in speakers of Niger-Congo—which may have a special relationship with Nilosaharan—spoken by Nubians; together they might form a superphylum called Kongo-Saharan or Niger-Saharan (see Gregersen 1972, Blench 1995), but this is not fully supported. The spatial distribution of p49a,f TaqI haplotypes in the geographically-widespread speakers of Nilosaharan languages has not been fully characterized, but the notable presence of haplotype IV in Nubians speaking the Eastern Sudanic branch is interesting in that this subgroup is in the Sahelian branch of speakers, whose ancestors may have participated in the domestication of cattle in the eastern Sahara (Ehret 2000, Wendorf and Schild 2001). Sometimes haplotype IV (and the M2 lineage) is seen as being associated with the “Bantu expansion” (2000-3000 bp), but this does not mean that it is not much older, since expansion and origin times cannot be conflated. Haplotype IV has substantial frequencies in upper Egypt and Nubia, greater than VII and VIII, and even V. Bantu languages were never spoken in these regions or Senegal, where M2 is greater than 90 percent in some studies. — Keita, 2005."
"Haplotype IV has a gradient that decreases as one moves from the so-named Upper Nile Valley regions to Lower Egypt, with higher frequencies in "Upper Egypt" and "Lower Nubia" and lower frequencies in "Lower Egypt". Nonetheless, does haplotype IV's presence in Lower Egypt mean that Hg E3a has been detected therein? Well, if Luis et al.'s work of "the Nile Valley corridor vs. the African Horn" is anything to go by, this should come as no surprise; they show that low frequencies of Hg E3a occur in "northern Egypt", which in itself should be instructive, considering that this is the region of the Nile Valley relatively further away from sub-Saharan Africa [where this haplotype predominates]. So, if lower Egypt can show low frequencies of E3a, as verified by Luis et al., then does it not follow that Upper Egypt could and would have this marker, in relatively higher frequencies?"
"On the other hand, haplotype IV is a typical southern haplotype, being almost absent in Lower Egypt (1.2%), and preponderant in Upper Egypt (27.3%) and Lower Nubia (39.1%)."
"Frequencies of haplotype V are 51.9% in the Delta (location A), 24.2% in Upper Egypt (location B), and 17.4% in Lower Nubia (location C)."
"Haplotype XI also shows a preponderance in the south (in Lower Nubia, 30.4%; Upper Egypt, 28.8%) compared to the north (11.7% in Lower Egypt) of the country."
^Haplogroup V and XI = E3b-M78 and E3b-M35 lineages
The spread of Haplogroup E3b(IV) was likely introduced into the Nile Valley from the expansive Central Saharan (West African) groups.
E3b-M35(XI)likely moved westwards into Egypt and Nubia from the Eastern Sudan/Eritrea, among Afrasan speaking groups.
E3b-M78(V) is indigenous to the general area, and it's freguency was likely to have increased with the movement of Central Sudanics, who happen to carry this lineage at very high frequencies, the highest behind ethnic Somalis and Southern Oromos.
"Battaglia et al. (2008) describe Egypt as "a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related sub-clades" and, based on archaeological data, they propose that the point of origin of E-M78 (as opposed to later dispersals from Egypt) may have been in a refugium which "existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC."
"Hassan et al. (2008) in their study observed this to be the most common of the sub-clades of E-M78 found in Sudan, especially among the Beja, Masalit, and Fur. The Beja, like Somalis and Oromos, speak an Afro-Asiatic language and live along the "corridor" from Egypt to the Horn of Africa. Hassan et al. (2008) interpret this as reinforcing the "strong correlation between linguistic and genetic diversity" and signs of relatedness between the Beja and the peoples of the Horn of Africa such as the Amhara and Oromo. On the other hand, the Masalit and Fur live in Darfur and speak a Nilo-Saharan language. The authors observed in their study that "the Masalit possesses by far the highest frequency of the E-M78 and of the E-V32 haplogroup", which they believe suggests "either a recent bottleneck in the population or a proximity to the origin of the haplogroup." Tillmar et al. (2009) in their study 147 males from Somalia were typed for 12 Y-STR loci, 77% (113/147) had typical E1b1b1a1b haplotypes. This is currently the highest frequency of E1b1b1a1b observed in any single sample population."
"E-V12* made up approximately 20% of the Sudanese E-M78."
"Before the discovery of V32, Cruciani et al. (2004) referred to the same lineages as the "gamma cluster", which was estimated to have arisen about 8,500 years ago. They stated that "the highest frequencies in the three Cushitic-speaking groups: the Borana from Kenya (71.4%), the Oromo from Ethiopia (32.0%), and the Somali (52.2%)."
you said E3a at 30%. please cite.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ E3a in Egypt? Please cite.
In regard to Haplogroup IV.
"Haplotype IV, designating the M2/PN1 subclade, as noted, is found in high frequency in west, central, and sub-equatorial Africa in speakers of Niger-Congo—which may have a special relationship with Nilosaharan—spoken by Nubians; together they might form a superphylum called Kongo-Saharan or Niger-Saharan (see Gregersen 1972, Blench 1995), but this is not fully supported. The spatial distribution of p49a,f TaqI haplotypes in the geographically-widespread speakers of Nilosaharan languages has not been fully characterized, but the notable presence of haplotype IV in Nubians speaking the Eastern Sudanic branch is interesting in that this subgroup is in the Sahelian branch of speakers, whose ancestors may have participated in the domestication of cattle in the eastern Sahara (Ehret 2000, Wendorf and Schild 2001). Sometimes haplotype IV (and the M2 lineage) is seen as being associated with the “Bantu expansion” (2000-3000 bp), but this does not mean that it is not much older, since expansion and origin times cannot be conflated. Haplotype IV has substantial frequencies in upper Egypt and Nubia, greater than VII and VIII, and even V. Bantu languages were never spoken in these regions or Senegal, where M2 is greater than 90 percent in some studies. — Keita, 2005."
"Haplotype IV has a gradient that decreases as one moves from the so-named Upper Nile Valley regions to Lower Egypt, with higher frequencies in "Upper Egypt" and "Lower Nubia" and lower frequencies in "Lower Egypt". Nonetheless, does haplotype IV's presence in Lower Egypt mean that Hg E3a has been detected therein? Well, if Luis et al.'s work of "the Nile Valley corridor vs. the African Horn" is anything to go by, this should come as no surprise; they show that low frequencies of Hg E3a occur in "northern Egypt", which in itself should be instructive, considering that this is the region of the Nile Valley relatively further away from sub-Saharan Africa [where this haplotype predominates]. So, if lower Egypt can show low frequencies of E3a, as verified by Luis et al., then does it not follow that Upper Egypt could and would have this marker, in relatively higher frequencies?"
"On the other hand, haplotype IV is a typical southern haplotype, being almost absent in Lower Egypt (1.2%), and preponderant in Upper Egypt (27.3%) and Lower Nubia (39.1%)."
"Frequencies of haplotype V are 51.9% in the Delta (location A), 24.2% in Upper Egypt (location B), and 17.4% in Lower Nubia (location C)."
"Haplotype XI also shows a preponderance in the south (in Lower Nubia, 30.4%; Upper Egypt, 28.8%) compared to the north (11.7% in Lower Egypt) of the country."
^Haplogroup V and XI = E3b-M78 and E3b-M35 lineages
The spread of Haplogroup E3b(IV) was likely introduced into the Nile Valley from the expansive Central Saharan (West African) groups.
E3b-M35(XI)likely moved westwards into Egypt and Nubia from the Eastern Sudan/Eritrea, among Afrasan speaking groups.
E3b-M78(V) is indigenous to the general area, and it's freguency was likely to have increased with the movement of Central Sudanics, who happen to carry this lineage at very high frequencies, the highest behind ethnic Somalis and Southern Oromos.
"Battaglia et al. (2008) describe Egypt as "a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related sub-clades" and, based on archaeological data, they propose that the point of origin of E-M78 (as opposed to later dispersals from Egypt) may have been in a refugium which "existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC."
"Hassan et al. (2008) in their study observed this to be the most common of the sub-clades of E-M78 found in Sudan, especially among the Beja, Masalit, and Fur. The Beja, like Somalis and Oromos, speak an Afro-Asiatic language and live along the "corridor" from Egypt to the Horn of Africa. Hassan et al. (2008) interpret this as reinforcing the "strong correlation between linguistic and genetic diversity" and signs of relatedness between the Beja and the peoples of the Horn of Africa such as the Amhara and Oromo. On the other hand, the Masalit and Fur live in Darfur and speak a Nilo-Saharan language. The authors observed in their study that "the Masalit possesses by far the highest frequency of the E-M78 and of the E-V32 haplogroup", which they believe suggests "either a recent bottleneck in the population or a proximity to the origin of the haplogroup." Tillmar et al. (2009) in their study 147 males from Somalia were typed for 12 Y-STR loci, 77% (113/147) had typical E1b1b1a1b haplotypes. This is currently the highest frequency of E1b1b1a1b observed in any single sample population."
"E-V12* made up approximately 20% of the Sudanese E-M78."
"Before the discovery of V32, Cruciani et al. (2004) referred to the same lineages as the "gamma cluster", which was estimated to have arisen about 8,500 years ago. They stated that "the highest frequencies in the three Cushitic-speaking groups: the Borana from Kenya (71.4%), the Oromo from Ethiopia (32.0%), and the Somali (52.2%)."
you said E3a at 30%. please cite.
"On the other hand, haplotype IV (E3a) is a typical southern haplotype, being almost absent in Lower Egypt (1.2%), and preponderant in Upper Egypt (27.3%) and Lower Nubia (39.1%)."
The Mozabite according to recent studies are 40% non-"Saharan/Dogon" African, mostly "Cushitic" and "Niger-Kordofanian", 40% African "Saharan/Dogon", and 20% "European, but in which I perfer "Southwest Asian".
^ basically kills the whole North Africans are Caucasians.
The above results would likley be the same for other Northern Saharan/Coastal North African Berber/Arab groups.
Who knows maybe the Kabyle may show up to be just as African as the Mozabite.
-------------------- Doctoris Scientia Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Tiye57: [qb]
It seems like Eurocentrist like to point out the most caucasoid group of Africa and use them to identify what the AE must've looked like.
Remember, the Ancient Egyptians were "tropically adapted" peoples. West Africa lies mostly in the tropics, doesn't it? As far as I can tell, most Horn of Africans craniofacial features have adapted to desert climates, not tropical climates.
East Africans, i.e. Horn of Africa, have tropically adapted body-plans, and are no way "caucasian", non-African, or "mulatto".
In fact, East Africans have body-plans which are extremely adapted to the Tropics, unlike most West Africans. It dosen't make a difference, since both populations are equally indigenous to Africa, in that they not only share a common ancestor, they have been constantly intertwined since their "divergence" or "diversification".
West Africans have extremely tropically adapted body plans as well. Anthropologists tend to ignore recognition of relationships between West Africans and Ancient Egyptians. They place a lot of emphasis on the Horn of Africans instead who don't even consider themselves apart of the Black race.
If you go to any East African forum, especially the Somali ones, you will see Somalis making racist insults against other Black people. Some of them even claim to be Indian or Arab
quote:Originally posted by Tiye57: There are many oral traditions of certain West African groups that point to an eastern migration (most likely around pre dynastic and early dynastic Upper Egypt)
Have any anthropologists taken into account that modern day Horn of African groups such as Somalis, Amhara, and Tigray have oral traditions that link them to Southern Arabia?
The E3b dna found in Horn of Africa populations can also be found in the Near East such as Yemen and Saudi Arabia, not only East Africa.
It's very unlikely that any significant number of people in either West or East Africa have any direct origins in pre-Dynastic or Dynastic Egypt. On the other hand, both groups have confirmed ancestry to ancestral groups which eventually populated the Nile Valley. West Africans have been linked to the Central Saharan population which represented one of the four populations which contributed to the founding and development of Egypt. Therefore any oral traditions linking West Africans to the east can be linked to the Central Saharan population, i.e. Southern Libya, Northern Chad, and Western Egypt. East Africans would on the other hand possess ancestry with the Eastern Sudanese/ Eritrean population and due to common origin, the indigenous Nile Valley population... and both groups would likely possess some affiliation with the Central Sudanics.
There are strong similarities between AE religions and many West African religions. http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/2139 Most Horn of Africans don't really show any traces of the AE religions and are either Muslims or Christian (Ethiopian Orthodox). Circumcision which was common in Egypt is still prevelant however in Somalia.
West Africans such as the Akan of Ghana trace their ancestry through the maternal side unlike Somalis who trace their ancestry through the paternal side. Matrilineal descent was common in Upper Egypt.http://www.arthistory.sbc.edu/imageswomen/luomala.html
DNA and science trumps oral traditions, none of those groups are non-African in any way shape or form; recent or historic non-African admixture accounts for only 2% of the gene-pool of the above groups. And in regard to that, indigenous Southern Arabians have direct and significant linkages to Africa in general, only recently affected by gene-flow from northern Arabians.
Dna and science doesn't always trump oral traditons like with the Lemba in South Africa who have a Jewish background and oral traditions that reveal them being from Israel.Posts: 33 | From: U.S. | Registered: Jun 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Tiye57: Remember, the Ancient Egyptians were "tropically adapted" peoples. West Africa lies mostly in the tropics, doesn't it? As far as I can tell, most Horn of Africans craniofacial features have adapted to desert climates, not tropical climates.
"Tropical" and "desert" are not mutually exclusive. "Tropical" refers either to specific latitudes or a lack of temperature fluctuation throughout the year, whereas "desert" refers simply to low rainfall and has nothing to do with latitude or temperature. There are deserts within the tropics.
Somalis in particular are known to resemble the Nordics. The early ancient egyptians were known to have "super-negroid" plans like modern day West Africans. Most East Africans fit into the "Aethiopid" sub race of Africa rather than the "Negroid" type.Posts: 33 | From: U.S. | Registered: Jun 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Tiye57: Remember, the Ancient Egyptians were "tropically adapted" peoples. West Africa lies mostly in the tropics, doesn't it? As far as I can tell, most Horn of Africans craniofacial features have adapted to desert climates, not tropical climates.
"Tropical" and "desert" are not mutually exclusive. "Tropical" refers either to specific latitudes or a lack of temperature fluctuation throughout the year, whereas "desert" refers simply to low rainfall and has nothing to do with latitude or temperature. There are deserts within the tropics.
Somalis in particular are known to resemble the Nordics. The early ancient egyptians were known to have "super-negroid" plans like modern day West Africans. Most East Africans fit into the "Aethiopid" sub race of Africa rather than the "Negroid" type.
Take that **** somewhere else, nobodies paying attention to the outdated, debunked, and eurocentric views you just posted above.
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Tiye57: [qb]
It seems like Eurocentrist like to point out the most caucasoid group of Africa and use them to identify what the AE must've looked like.
Remember, the Ancient Egyptians were "tropically adapted" peoples. West Africa lies mostly in the tropics, doesn't it? As far as I can tell, most Horn of Africans craniofacial features have adapted to desert climates, not tropical climates.
East Africans, i.e. Horn of Africa, have tropically adapted body-plans, and are no way "caucasian", non-African, or "mulatto".
In fact, East Africans have body-plans which are extremely adapted to the Tropics, unlike most West Africans. It dosen't make a difference, since both populations are equally indigenous to Africa, in that they not only share a common ancestor, they have been constantly intertwined since their "divergence" or "diversification".
West Africans have extremely tropically adapted body plans as well. Anthropologists tend to ignore recognition of relationships between West Africans and Ancient Egyptians. They place a lot of emphasis on the Horn of Africans instead who don't even consider themselves apart of the Black race.
If you go to any East African forum, especially the Somali ones, you will see Somalis making racist insults against other Black people. Some of them even claim to be Indian or Arab
quote:Originally posted by Tiye57: There are many oral traditions of certain West African groups that point to an eastern migration (most likely around pre dynastic and early dynastic Upper Egypt)
Have any anthropologists taken into account that modern day Horn of African groups such as Somalis, Amhara, and Tigray have oral traditions that link them to Southern Arabia?
The E3b dna found in Horn of Africa populations can also be found in the Near East such as Yemen and Saudi Arabia, not only East Africa.
It's very unlikely that any significant number of people in either West or East Africa have any direct origins in pre-Dynastic or Dynastic Egypt. On the other hand, both groups have confirmed ancestry to ancestral groups which eventually populated the Nile Valley. West Africans have been linked to the Central Saharan population which represented one of the four populations which contributed to the founding and development of Egypt. Therefore any oral traditions linking West Africans to the east can be linked to the Central Saharan population, i.e. Southern Libya, Northern Chad, and Western Egypt. East Africans would on the other hand possess ancestry with the Eastern Sudanese/ Eritrean population and due to common origin, the indigenous Nile Valley population... and both groups would likely possess some affiliation with the Central Sudanics.
There are strong similarities between AE religions and many West African religions. http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/2139 Most Horn of Africans don't really show any traces of the AE religions and are either Muslims or Christian (Ethiopian Orthodox). Circumcision which was common in Egypt is still prevelant however in Somalia.
West Africans such as the Akan of Ghana trace their ancestry through the maternal side unlike Somalis who trace their ancestry through the paternal side. Matrilineal descent was common in Upper Egypt.http://www.arthistory.sbc.edu/imageswomen/luomala.html
DNA and science trumps oral traditions, none of those groups are non-African in any way shape or form; recent or historic non-African admixture accounts for only 2% of the gene-pool of the above groups. And in regard to that, indigenous Southern Arabians have direct and significant linkages to Africa in general, only recently affected by gene-flow from northern Arabians.
Dna and science doesn't always trump oral traditons like with the Lemba in South Africa who have a Jewish background and oral traditions that reveal them being from Israel.
I'm seriously not going to waste my time with a uneducated person who continues to make biased and outlandish personal opinions in regard to the subject.
In general East Africans, including the Ancient Egyptians and most likely the Ancient "Nubians", possessed and possess extreme-tropical adaptions in regard to their body-plans, unlike MOST West Africans, who also possess body plans indigenous to the Tropics of the African continent. Also, no, most anthropologists emphasis origins of the Ancient Egyptians and general Nile Valley populations in what is now the Central Sahara and Central Sudan + the Horn of Africa and indigenous Nile Valley population. All of the above cultures shared specific linkages with Egypt and "Nubia".
Get out of here with that nonsense, are you seriously going to post some **** off of Topix. LMAO. I used to post on Topix and half of the people posting as "Somalis" were trolls, and there were also dozens of other Somalis and East Africans who argued otherwise, i.e. "EastAfrican beauty" for example. And it dosen't matter what they say, genetics is much more important, and Somalis happen to be very much as African or black as the next Nigerian or Ghanian.
Most West Africans are also either Muslim or Christian, and like East Africans they also have elements of indigenous beliefs intact as well. Also, how about the Beja and other East African groups other then the Somali who trace their origins through their maternal line. Somalis would have had practiced a similar tradition prier to Islam.
Also, Lemba people are not from Israel. A tribe called "Lemba" did not migrate out of Israel fully intact, eventually mixing with indigenous populations in South Africa. The Lemba or any previous group likely absorbed a small group of Jewish MALES, less than 10 maybe, who individually mixed with several of the woman in that tribe. The Lemba are 100% African, simply because they carry haplogroups associated with Jews, does not mean that they are mulatto, it was 2000 years ago and any detectable admixture outside of the y-dna is long gone.
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted
And where did these "less than 10 Hebrew males" come from since we know the dispersal was a myth? lol
quote:Dna and science doesn't always trump oral traditons like with the Lemba in South Africa who have a Jewish background and oral traditions that reveal them being from Israel.
That 1997 hammer study about some Jew gene known as the "Cohen modal haplotype" has been debunked as Jewish quack science. There is no such thing as "Jew genes".
Posts: 4254 | From: dasein | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Tiye57: Remember, the Ancient Egyptians were "tropically adapted" peoples. West Africa lies mostly in the tropics, doesn't it? As far as I can tell, most Horn of Africans craniofacial features have adapted to desert climates, not tropical climates.
"Tropical" and "desert" are not mutually exclusive. "Tropical" refers either to specific latitudes or a lack of temperature fluctuation throughout the year, whereas "desert" refers simply to low rainfall and has nothing to do with latitude or temperature. There are deserts within the tropics.
Somalis in particular are known to resemble the Nordics. The early ancient egyptians were known to have "super-negroid" plans like modern day West Africans. Most East Africans fit into the "Aethiopid" sub race of Africa rather than the "Negroid" type.
Take that **** somewhere else, nobodies paying attention to the outdated, debunked, and eurocentric views you just posted above.
[EMAIL]If you can't see the Nordic resemblance to most Somalis and the fucked up mindset that they have, then you must be a dumbass. Those sources aren't outdated you fool.[/EMAIL]
Posts: 33 | From: U.S. | Registered: Jun 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Tiye57: [qb]
It seems like Eurocentrist like to point out the most caucasoid group of Africa and use them to identify what the AE must've looked like.
Remember, the Ancient Egyptians were "tropically adapted" peoples. West Africa lies mostly in the tropics, doesn't it? As far as I can tell, most Horn of Africans craniofacial features have adapted to desert climates, not tropical climates.
East Africans, i.e. Horn of Africa, have tropically adapted body-plans, and are no way "caucasian", non-African, or "mulatto".
In fact, East Africans have body-plans which are extremely adapted to the Tropics, unlike most West Africans. It dosen't make a difference, since both populations are equally indigenous to Africa, in that they not only share a common ancestor, they have been constantly intertwined since their "divergence" or "diversification".
West Africans have extremely tropically adapted body plans as well. Anthropologists tend to ignore recognition of relationships between West Africans and Ancient Egyptians. They place a lot of emphasis on the Horn of Africans instead who don't even consider themselves apart of the Black race.
If you go to any East African forum, especially the Somali ones, you will see Somalis making racist insults against other Black people. Some of them even claim to be Indian or Arab
quote:Originally posted by Tiye57: There are many oral traditions of certain West African groups that point to an eastern migration (most likely around pre dynastic and early dynastic Upper Egypt)
Have any anthropologists taken into account that modern day Horn of African groups such as Somalis, Amhara, and Tigray have oral traditions that link them to Southern Arabia?
The E3b dna found in Horn of Africa populations can also be found in the Near East such as Yemen and Saudi Arabia, not only East Africa.
It's very unlikely that any significant number of people in either West or East Africa have any direct origins in pre-Dynastic or Dynastic Egypt. On the other hand, both groups have confirmed ancestry to ancestral groups which eventually populated the Nile Valley. West Africans have been linked to the Central Saharan population which represented one of the four populations which contributed to the founding and development of Egypt. Therefore any oral traditions linking West Africans to the east can be linked to the Central Saharan population, i.e. Southern Libya, Northern Chad, and Western Egypt. East Africans would on the other hand possess ancestry with the Eastern Sudanese/ Eritrean population and due to common origin, the indigenous Nile Valley population... and both groups would likely possess some affiliation with the Central Sudanics.
There are strong similarities between AE religions and many West African religions. http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/2139 Most Horn of Africans don't really show any traces of the AE religions and are either Muslims or Christian (Ethiopian Orthodox). Circumcision which was common in Egypt is still prevelant however in Somalia.
West Africans such as the Akan of Ghana trace their ancestry through the maternal side unlike Somalis who trace their ancestry through the paternal side. Matrilineal descent was common in Upper Egypt.http://www.arthistory.sbc.edu/imageswomen/luomala.html
DNA and science trumps oral traditions, none of those groups are non-African in any way shape or form; recent or historic non-African admixture accounts for only 2% of the gene-pool of the above groups. And in regard to that, indigenous Southern Arabians have direct and significant linkages to Africa in general, only recently affected by gene-flow from northern Arabians.
Dna and science doesn't always trump oral traditons like with the Lemba in South Africa who have a Jewish background and oral traditions that reveal them being from Israel.
I'm seriously not going to waste my time with a uneducated person who continues to make biased and outlandish personal opinions in regard to the subject.
In general East Africans, including the Ancient Egyptians and most likely the Ancient "Nubians", possessed and possess extreme-tropical adaptions in regard to their body-plans, unlike MOST West Africans, who also possess body plans indigenous to the Tropics of the African continent. Also, no, most anthropologists emphasis origins of the Ancient Egyptians and general Nile Valley populations in what is now the Central Sahara and Central Sudan + the Horn of Africa and indigenous Nile Valley population. All of the above cultures shared specific linkages with Egypt and "Nubia".
Get out of here with that nonsense, are you seriously going to post some **** off of Topix. LMAO. I used to post on Topix and half of the people posting as "Somalis" were trolls, and there were also dozens of other Somalis and East Africans who argued otherwise, i.e. "EastAfrican beauty" for example. And it dosen't matter what they say, genetics is much more important, and Somalis happen to be very much as African or black as the next Nigerian or Ghanian.
Most West Africans are also either Muslim or Christian, and like East Africans they also have elements of indigenous beliefs intact as well. Also, how about the Beja and other East African groups other then the Somali who trace their origins through their maternal line. Somalis would have had practiced a similar tradition prier to Islam.
Also, Lemba people are not from Israel. A tribe called "Lemba" did not migrate out of Israel fully intact, eventually mixing with indigenous populations in South Africa. The Lemba or any previous group likely absorbed a small group of Jewish MALES, less than 10 maybe, who individually mixed with several of the woman in that tribe. The Lemba are 100% African, simply because they carry haplogroups associated with Jews, does not mean that they are mulatto, it was 2000 years ago and any detectable admixture outside of the y-dna is long gone.
I am currently working on my masters in graduate you retard. You're the uneducated bastard, not me. Anywho moving on..Posts: 33 | From: U.S. | Registered: Jun 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Tiye57: Remember, the Ancient Egyptians were "tropically adapted" peoples. West Africa lies mostly in the tropics, doesn't it? As far as I can tell, most Horn of Africans craniofacial features have adapted to desert climates, not tropical climates.
"Tropical" and "desert" are not mutually exclusive. "Tropical" refers either to specific latitudes or a lack of temperature fluctuation throughout the year, whereas "desert" refers simply to low rainfall and has nothing to do with latitude or temperature. There are deserts within the tropics.
Somalis in particular are known to resemble the Nordics. The early ancient egyptians were known to have "super-negroid" plans like modern day West Africans. Most East Africans fit into the "Aethiopid" sub race of Africa rather than the "Negroid" type.
No, Aethiopids also have tropical body plans. Negroid is an outdated term that is used for facial features (wide nose, thick lips, frizzy hair). Problem is that even many pygmies don't have such facial features.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ E3a in Egypt? Please cite.
In regard to Haplogroup IV.
"Haplotype IV, designating the M2/PN1 subclade, as noted, is found in high frequency in west, central, and sub-equatorial Africa in speakers of Niger-Congo—which may have a special relationship with Nilosaharan—spoken by Nubians; together they might form a superphylum called Kongo-Saharan or Niger-Saharan (see Gregersen 1972, Blench 1995), but this is not fully supported. The spatial distribution of p49a,f TaqI haplotypes in the geographically-widespread speakers of Nilosaharan languages has not been fully characterized, but the notable presence of haplotype IV in Nubians speaking the Eastern Sudanic branch is interesting in that this subgroup is in the Sahelian branch of speakers, whose ancestors may have participated in the domestication of cattle in the eastern Sahara (Ehret 2000, Wendorf and Schild 2001). Sometimes haplotype IV (and the M2 lineage) is seen as being associated with the “Bantu expansion” (2000-3000 bp), but this does not mean that it is not much older, since expansion and origin times cannot be conflated. Haplotype IV has substantial frequencies in upper Egypt and Nubia, greater than VII and VIII, and even V. Bantu languages were never spoken in these regions or Senegal, where M2 is greater than 90 percent in some studies. — Keita, 2005."
"Haplotype IV has a gradient that decreases as one moves from the so-named Upper Nile Valley regions to Lower Egypt, with higher frequencies in "Upper Egypt" and "Lower Nubia" and lower frequencies in "Lower Egypt". Nonetheless, does haplotype IV's presence in Lower Egypt mean that Hg E3a has been detected therein? Well, if Luis et al.'s work of "the Nile Valley corridor vs. the African Horn" is anything to go by, this should come as no surprise; they show that low frequencies of Hg E3a occur in "northern Egypt", which in itself should be instructive, considering that this is the region of the Nile Valley relatively further away from sub-Saharan Africa [where this haplotype predominates]. So, if lower Egypt can show low frequencies of E3a, as verified by Luis et al., then does it not follow that Upper Egypt could and would have this marker, in relatively higher frequencies?"
"On the other hand, haplotype IV is a typical southern haplotype, being almost absent in Lower Egypt (1.2%), and preponderant in Upper Egypt (27.3%) and Lower Nubia (39.1%)."
"Frequencies of haplotype V are 51.9% in the Delta (location A), 24.2% in Upper Egypt (location B), and 17.4% in Lower Nubia (location C)."
"Haplotype XI also shows a preponderance in the south (in Lower Nubia, 30.4%; Upper Egypt, 28.8%) compared to the north (11.7% in Lower Egypt) of the country."
^Haplogroup V and XI = E3b-M78 and E3b-M35 lineages
The spread of Haplogroup E3b(IV) was likely introduced into the Nile Valley from the expansive Central Saharan (West African) groups.
E3b-M35(XI)likely moved westwards into Egypt and Nubia from the Eastern Sudan/Eritrea, among Afrasan speaking groups.
E3b-M78(V) is indigenous to the general area, and it's freguency was likely to have increased with the movement of Central Sudanics, who happen to carry this lineage at very high frequencies, the highest behind ethnic Somalis and Southern Oromos.
"Battaglia et al. (2008) describe Egypt as "a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related sub-clades" and, based on archaeological data, they propose that the point of origin of E-M78 (as opposed to later dispersals from Egypt) may have been in a refugium which "existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC."
"Hassan et al. (2008) in their study observed this to be the most common of the sub-clades of E-M78 found in Sudan, especially among the Beja, Masalit, and Fur. The Beja, like Somalis and Oromos, speak an Afro-Asiatic language and live along the "corridor" from Egypt to the Horn of Africa. Hassan et al. (2008) interpret this as reinforcing the "strong correlation between linguistic and genetic diversity" and signs of relatedness between the Beja and the peoples of the Horn of Africa such as the Amhara and Oromo. On the other hand, the Masalit and Fur live in Darfur and speak a Nilo-Saharan language. The authors observed in their study that "the Masalit possesses by far the highest frequency of the E-M78 and of the E-V32 haplogroup", which they believe suggests "either a recent bottleneck in the population or a proximity to the origin of the haplogroup." Tillmar et al. (2009) in their study 147 males from Somalia were typed for 12 Y-STR loci, 77% (113/147) had typical E1b1b1a1b haplotypes. This is currently the highest frequency of E1b1b1a1b observed in any single sample population."
"E-V12* made up approximately 20% of the Sudanese E-M78."
"Before the discovery of V32, Cruciani et al. (2004) referred to the same lineages as the "gamma cluster", which was estimated to have arisen about 8,500 years ago. They stated that "the highest frequencies in the three Cushitic-speaking groups: the Borana from Kenya (71.4%), the Oromo from Ethiopia (32.0%), and the Somali (52.2%)."
you said E3a at 30%. please cite.
"On the other hand, haplotype IV (E3a) is a typical southern haplotype, being almost absent in Lower Egypt (1.2%), and preponderant in Upper Egypt (27.3%) and Lower Nubia (39.1%)."
quote:Originally posted by Tiye57: Remember, the Ancient Egyptians were "tropically adapted" peoples. West Africa lies mostly in the tropics, doesn't it? As far as I can tell, most Horn of Africans craniofacial features have adapted to desert climates, not tropical climates.
"Tropical" and "desert" are not mutually exclusive. "Tropical" refers either to specific latitudes or a lack of temperature fluctuation throughout the year, whereas "desert" refers simply to low rainfall and has nothing to do with latitude or temperature. There are deserts within the tropics.
Somalis in particular are known to resemble the Nordics. The early ancient egyptians were known to have "super-negroid" plans like modern day West Africans. Most East Africans fit into the "Aethiopid" sub race of Africa rather than the "Negroid" type.
Take that **** somewhere else, nobodies paying attention to the outdated, debunked, and eurocentric views you just posted above.
[EMAIL]If you can't see the Nordic resemblance to most Somalis and the fucked up mindset that they have, then you must be a dumbass. Those sources aren't outdated you fool.[/EMAIL]
LOL@you, your talking about facial features. Are you suggesting that the Somali and other East Africans are a product of Nordic/African admixture, LOL. Indigenous Khoisan speaking populations resemble East Asian populations, West Africans have facial features similar to several indigenous Southeast Asian and Australian populations...are they a mixture of the above. Features are determined by the environment, and in Africa's case, the antiquity of African groups and the origin of non-Africans in Africa. Africans were already diversified prier to the expansions of Africans out of Africa. Fact is, Africans are the most diversified population, both physically and genetically. The recent Tishkoff study should put a rest to all this talk of mulatto East Africans, which vertified even earlier studies that East Africans are in large part the descendants to an indigenous African population with little to no influence from non-Africans, only 2% of the East African gene-pool is of recent or historic non-African admixture. Even light skin North African Coastal Berbers/Arabs possess a predominant African ancestry, 80%.
Those sources you posted are outdated, East Africans and other Africans have tropically adapted, therefore their similar crani meausurements to some non-Africans is due to adaption to their particular environment not admixture.
Your generalizing a whole ethnic group based on some random comments from Topix, in which half of them are likely trolls, who start **** on threads for entertainment.
No your a dumbass, I've proven myself on Egypt Search, what have you done?
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ E3a in Egypt? Please cite.
In regard to Haplogroup IV.
"Haplotype IV, designating the M2/PN1 subclade, as noted, is found in high frequency in west, central, and sub-equatorial Africa in speakers of Niger-Congo—which may have a special relationship with Nilosaharan—spoken by Nubians; together they might form a superphylum called Kongo-Saharan or Niger-Saharan (see Gregersen 1972, Blench 1995), but this is not fully supported. The spatial distribution of p49a,f TaqI haplotypes in the geographically-widespread speakers of Nilosaharan languages has not been fully characterized, but the notable presence of haplotype IV in Nubians speaking the Eastern Sudanic branch is interesting in that this subgroup is in the Sahelian branch of speakers, whose ancestors may have participated in the domestication of cattle in the eastern Sahara (Ehret 2000, Wendorf and Schild 2001). Sometimes haplotype IV (and the M2 lineage) is seen as being associated with the “Bantu expansion” (2000-3000 bp), but this does not mean that it is not much older, since expansion and origin times cannot be conflated. Haplotype IV has substantial frequencies in upper Egypt and Nubia, greater than VII and VIII, and even V. Bantu languages were never spoken in these regions or Senegal, where M2 is greater than 90 percent in some studies. — Keita, 2005."
"Haplotype IV has a gradient that decreases as one moves from the so-named Upper Nile Valley regions to Lower Egypt, with higher frequencies in "Upper Egypt" and "Lower Nubia" and lower frequencies in "Lower Egypt". Nonetheless, does haplotype IV's presence in Lower Egypt mean that Hg E3a has been detected therein? Well, if Luis et al.'s work of "the Nile Valley corridor vs. the African Horn" is anything to go by, this should come as no surprise; they show that low frequencies of Hg E3a occur in "northern Egypt", which in itself should be instructive, considering that this is the region of the Nile Valley relatively further away from sub-Saharan Africa [where this haplotype predominates]. So, if lower Egypt can show low frequencies of E3a, as verified by Luis et al., then does it not follow that Upper Egypt could and would have this marker, in relatively higher frequencies?"
"On the other hand, haplotype IV is a typical southern haplotype, being almost absent in Lower Egypt (1.2%), and preponderant in Upper Egypt (27.3%) and Lower Nubia (39.1%)."
"Frequencies of haplotype V are 51.9% in the Delta (location A), 24.2% in Upper Egypt (location B), and 17.4% in Lower Nubia (location C)."
"Haplotype XI also shows a preponderance in the south (in Lower Nubia, 30.4%; Upper Egypt, 28.8%) compared to the north (11.7% in Lower Egypt) of the country."
^Haplogroup V and XI = E3b-M78 and E3b-M35 lineages
The spread of Haplogroup E3b(IV) was likely introduced into the Nile Valley from the expansive Central Saharan (West African) groups.
E3b-M35(XI)likely moved westwards into Egypt and Nubia from the Eastern Sudan/Eritrea, among Afrasan speaking groups.
E3b-M78(V) is indigenous to the general area, and it's freguency was likely to have increased with the movement of Central Sudanics, who happen to carry this lineage at very high frequencies, the highest behind ethnic Somalis and Southern Oromos.
"Battaglia et al. (2008) describe Egypt as "a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related sub-clades" and, based on archaeological data, they propose that the point of origin of E-M78 (as opposed to later dispersals from Egypt) may have been in a refugium which "existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC."
"Hassan et al. (2008) in their study observed this to be the most common of the sub-clades of E-M78 found in Sudan, especially among the Beja, Masalit, and Fur. The Beja, like Somalis and Oromos, speak an Afro-Asiatic language and live along the "corridor" from Egypt to the Horn of Africa. Hassan et al. (2008) interpret this as reinforcing the "strong correlation between linguistic and genetic diversity" and signs of relatedness between the Beja and the peoples of the Horn of Africa such as the Amhara and Oromo. On the other hand, the Masalit and Fur live in Darfur and speak a Nilo-Saharan language. The authors observed in their study that "the Masalit possesses by far the highest frequency of the E-M78 and of the E-V32 haplogroup", which they believe suggests "either a recent bottleneck in the population or a proximity to the origin of the haplogroup." Tillmar et al. (2009) in their study 147 males from Somalia were typed for 12 Y-STR loci, 77% (113/147) had typical E1b1b1a1b haplotypes. This is currently the highest frequency of E1b1b1a1b observed in any single sample population."
"E-V12* made up approximately 20% of the Sudanese E-M78."
"Before the discovery of V32, Cruciani et al. (2004) referred to the same lineages as the "gamma cluster", which was estimated to have arisen about 8,500 years ago. They stated that "the highest frequencies in the three Cushitic-speaking groups: the Borana from Kenya (71.4%), the Oromo from Ethiopia (32.0%), and the Somali (52.2%)."
you said E3a at 30%. please cite.
"On the other hand, haplotype IV (E3a) is a typical southern haplotype, being almost absent in Lower Egypt (1.2%), and preponderant in Upper Egypt (27.3%) and Lower Nubia (39.1%)."
Okay now you have brought up another debate about the link between haplotype IV and haplogroup E3a.
I will steer clear of that. I just haven't heard that E3a has been found at that level and I see that is not what you cited.
enuff said
Why not let's get into that discussion. It's obvious that IV and E3a are one in the same, if not your going to have to explain the link between IV and a haplogroup most prevelent among Niger-Kordofanian groups in West/Central Africa.
"Nonetheless, does haplotype IV's presence in Lower Egypt mean that Hg E3a has been detected therein? Well, if Luis et al.'s work of "the Nile Valley corridor vs. the African Horn" is anything to go by, this should come as no surprise; they show that low frequencies of Hg E3a occur in "northern Egypt", which in itself should be instructive, considering that this is the region of the Nile Valley relatively further away from sub-Saharan Africa [where this haplotype predominates]. So, if lower Egypt can show low frequencies of E3a, as verified by Luis et al., then does it not follow that Upper Egypt could and would have this marker, in relatively higher frequencies?"
"One Y-specific DNA polymorphism (p49/Taql) was studied in a sample of 469 African males coming from twelve populations of sub-Saharan Africa. An high frequency (62.5%) of the Y-haplotype IV was observed in these populations, the most elevated percentage of this haplotype being observed in Mossis (from Burkina-Fasso). The “Arabic” haplotype V is present in these populations at a mean frequency of 8.7%. The “oriental” haplotype XI is present at a mean frequency of 11.3%, the most elevated percentage of this haplotype being observed in Songhaiis (from Niger).—Lucotte G. and Gérard N. 2000, Haplotypes of the Y chromosome in some populations of west Africa"
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Doctoris Scientia: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Tiye57: [qb]
It seems like Eurocentrist like to point out the most caucasoid group of Africa and use them to identify what the AE must've looked like.
Remember, the Ancient Egyptians were "tropically adapted" peoples. West Africa lies mostly in the tropics, doesn't it? As far as I can tell, most Horn of Africans craniofacial features have adapted to desert climates, not tropical climates.
East Africans, i.e. Horn of Africa, have tropically adapted body-plans, and are no way "caucasian", non-African, or "mulatto".
In fact, East Africans have body-plans which are extremely adapted to the Tropics, unlike most West Africans. It dosen't make a difference, since both populations are equally indigenous to Africa, in that they not only share a common ancestor, they have been constantly intertwined since their "divergence" or "diversification".
West Africans have extremely tropically adapted body plans as well. Anthropologists tend to ignore recognition of relationships between West Africans and Ancient Egyptians. They place a lot of emphasis on the Horn of Africans instead who don't even consider themselves apart of the Black race.
If you go to any East African forum, especially the Somali ones, you will see Somalis making racist insults against other Black people. Some of them even claim to be Indian or Arab
quote:Originally posted by Tiye57: There are many oral traditions of certain West African groups that point to an eastern migration (most likely around pre dynastic and early dynastic Upper Egypt)
Have any anthropologists taken into account that modern day Horn of African groups such as Somalis, Amhara, and Tigray have oral traditions that link them to Southern Arabia?
The E3b dna found in Horn of Africa populations can also be found in the Near East such as Yemen and Saudi Arabia, not only East Africa.
It's very unlikely that any significant number of people in either West or East Africa have any direct origins in pre-Dynastic or Dynastic Egypt. On the other hand, both groups have confirmed ancestry to ancestral groups which eventually populated the Nile Valley. West Africans have been linked to the Central Saharan population which represented one of the four populations which contributed to the founding and development of Egypt. Therefore any oral traditions linking West Africans to the east can be linked to the Central Saharan population, i.e. Southern Libya, Northern Chad, and Western Egypt. East Africans would on the other hand possess ancestry with the Eastern Sudanese/ Eritrean population and due to common origin, the indigenous Nile Valley population... and both groups would likely possess some affiliation with the Central Sudanics.
There are strong similarities between AE religions and many West African religions. http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/2139 Most Horn of Africans don't really show any traces of the AE religions and are either Muslims or Christian (Ethiopian Orthodox). Circumcision which was common in Egypt is still prevelant however in Somalia.
West Africans such as the Akan of Ghana trace their ancestry through the maternal side unlike Somalis who trace their ancestry through the paternal side. Matrilineal descent was common in Upper Egypt.http://www.arthistory.sbc.edu/imageswomen/luomala.html
DNA and science trumps oral traditions, none of those groups are non-African in any way shape or form; recent or historic non-African admixture accounts for only 2% of the gene-pool of the above groups. And in regard to that, indigenous Southern Arabians have direct and significant linkages to Africa in general, only recently affected by gene-flow from northern Arabians.
Dna and science doesn't always trump oral traditons like with the Lemba in South Africa who have a Jewish background and oral traditions that reveal them being from Israel.
I'm seriously not going to waste my time with a uneducated person who continues to make biased and outlandish personal opinions in regard to the subject.
In general East Africans, including the Ancient Egyptians and most likely the Ancient "Nubians", possessed and possess extreme-tropical adaptions in regard to their body-plans, unlike MOST West Africans, who also possess body plans indigenous to the Tropics of the African continent. Also, no, most anthropologists emphasis origins of the Ancient Egyptians and general Nile Valley populations in what is now the Central Sahara and Central Sudan + the Horn of Africa and indigenous Nile Valley population. All of the above cultures shared specific linkages with Egypt and "Nubia".
Get out of here with that nonsense, are you seriously going to post some **** off of Topix. LMAO. I used to post on Topix and half of the people posting as "Somalis" were trolls, and there were also dozens of other Somalis and East Africans who argued otherwise, i.e. "EastAfrican beauty" for example. And it dosen't matter what they say, genetics is much more important, and Somalis happen to be very much as African or black as the next Nigerian or Ghanian.
Most West Africans are also either Muslim or Christian, and like East Africans they also have elements of indigenous beliefs intact as well. Also, how about the Beja and other East African groups other then the Somali who trace their origins through their maternal line. Somalis would have had practiced a similar tradition prier to Islam.
Also, Lemba people are not from Israel. A tribe called "Lemba" did not migrate out of Israel fully intact, eventually mixing with indigenous populations in South Africa. The Lemba or any previous group likely absorbed a small group of Jewish MALES, less than 10 maybe, who individually mixed with several of the woman in that tribe. The Lemba are 100% African, simply because they carry haplogroups associated with Jews, does not mean that they are mulatto, it was 2000 years ago and any detectable admixture outside of the y-dna is long gone.
I am currently working on my masters in graduate you retard. You're the uneducated bastard, not me. Anywho moving on..
I don't care about your life, it's obvious that your lost when it comes to the discussion at hand. Exactly move on... you have proven nothing.
Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: ^ E3a in Egypt? Please cite.
In regard to Haplogroup IV.
"Haplotype IV, designating the M2/PN1 subclade, as noted, is found in high frequency in west, central, and sub-equatorial Africa in speakers of Niger-Congo—which may have a special relationship with Nilosaharan—spoken by Nubians; together they might form a superphylum called Kongo-Saharan or Niger-Saharan (see Gregersen 1972, Blench 1995), but this is not fully supported. The spatial distribution of p49a,f TaqI haplotypes in the geographically-widespread speakers of Nilosaharan languages has not been fully characterized, but the notable presence of haplotype IV in Nubians speaking the Eastern Sudanic branch is interesting in that this subgroup is in the Sahelian branch of speakers, whose ancestors may have participated in the domestication of cattle in the eastern Sahara (Ehret 2000, Wendorf and Schild 2001). Sometimes haplotype IV (and the M2 lineage) is seen as being associated with the “Bantu expansion” (2000-3000 bp), but this does not mean that it is not much older, since expansion and origin times cannot be conflated. Haplotype IV has substantial frequencies in upper Egypt and Nubia, greater than VII and VIII, and even V. Bantu languages were never spoken in these regions or Senegal, where M2 is greater than 90 percent in some studies. — Keita, 2005."
"Haplotype IV has a gradient that decreases as one moves from the so-named Upper Nile Valley regions to Lower Egypt, with higher frequencies in "Upper Egypt" and "Lower Nubia" and lower frequencies in "Lower Egypt". Nonetheless, does haplotype IV's presence in Lower Egypt mean that Hg E3a has been detected therein? Well, if Luis et al.'s work of "the Nile Valley corridor vs. the African Horn" is anything to go by, this should come as no surprise; they show that low frequencies of Hg E3a occur in "northern Egypt", which in itself should be instructive, considering that this is the region of the Nile Valley relatively further away from sub-Saharan Africa [where this haplotype predominates]. So, if lower Egypt can show low frequencies of E3a, as verified by Luis et al., then does it not follow that Upper Egypt could and would have this marker, in relatively higher frequencies?"
"On the other hand, haplotype IV is a typical southern haplotype, being almost absent in Lower Egypt (1.2%), and preponderant in Upper Egypt (27.3%) and Lower Nubia (39.1%)."
"Frequencies of haplotype V are 51.9% in the Delta (location A), 24.2% in Upper Egypt (location B), and 17.4% in Lower Nubia (location C)."
"Haplotype XI also shows a preponderance in the south (in Lower Nubia, 30.4%; Upper Egypt, 28.8%) compared to the north (11.7% in Lower Egypt) of the country."
^Haplogroup V and XI = E3b-M78 and E3b-M35 lineages
The spread of Haplogroup E3b(IV) was likely introduced into the Nile Valley from the expansive Central Saharan (West African) groups.
E3b-M35(XI)likely moved westwards into Egypt and Nubia from the Eastern Sudan/Eritrea, among Afrasan speaking groups.
E3b-M78(V) is indigenous to the general area, and it's freguency was likely to have increased with the movement of Central Sudanics, who happen to carry this lineage at very high frequencies, the highest behind ethnic Somalis and Southern Oromos.
"Battaglia et al. (2008) describe Egypt as "a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related sub-clades" and, based on archaeological data, they propose that the point of origin of E-M78 (as opposed to later dispersals from Egypt) may have been in a refugium which "existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC."
"Hassan et al. (2008) in their study observed this to be the most common of the sub-clades of E-M78 found in Sudan, especially among the Beja, Masalit, and Fur. The Beja, like Somalis and Oromos, speak an Afro-Asiatic language and live along the "corridor" from Egypt to the Horn of Africa. Hassan et al. (2008) interpret this as reinforcing the "strong correlation between linguistic and genetic diversity" and signs of relatedness between the Beja and the peoples of the Horn of Africa such as the Amhara and Oromo. On the other hand, the Masalit and Fur live in Darfur and speak a Nilo-Saharan language. The authors observed in their study that "the Masalit possesses by far the highest frequency of the E-M78 and of the E-V32 haplogroup", which they believe suggests "either a recent bottleneck in the population or a proximity to the origin of the haplogroup." Tillmar et al. (2009) in their study 147 males from Somalia were typed for 12 Y-STR loci, 77% (113/147) had typical E1b1b1a1b haplotypes. This is currently the highest frequency of E1b1b1a1b observed in any single sample population."
"E-V12* made up approximately 20% of the Sudanese E-M78."
"Before the discovery of V32, Cruciani et al. (2004) referred to the same lineages as the "gamma cluster", which was estimated to have arisen about 8,500 years ago. They stated that "the highest frequencies in the three Cushitic-speaking groups: the Borana from Kenya (71.4%), the Oromo from Ethiopia (32.0%), and the Somali (52.2%)."
you said E3a at 30%. please cite.
"On the other hand, haplotype IV (E3a) is a typical southern haplotype, being almost absent in Lower Egypt (1.2%), and preponderant in Upper Egypt (27.3%) and Lower Nubia (39.1%)."
Okay now you have brought up another debate about the link between haplotype IV and haplogroup E3a.
I will steer clear of that. I just haven't heard that E3a has been found at that level and I see that is not what you cited.
enuff said
Why not let's get into that discussion. It's obvious that IV and E3a are one in the same, if not your going to have to explain the link between IV and a haplogroup most prevelent among Niger-Kordofanian groups in West/Central Africa.
"Nonetheless, does haplotype IV's presence in Lower Egypt mean that Hg E3a has been detected therein? Well, if Luis et al.'s work of "the Nile Valley corridor vs. the African Horn" is anything to go by, this should come as no surprise; they show that low frequencies of Hg E3a occur in "northern Egypt", which in itself should be instructive, considering that this is the region of the Nile Valley relatively further away from sub-Saharan Africa [where this haplotype predominates]. So, if lower Egypt can show low frequencies of E3a, as verified by Luis et al., then does it not follow that Upper Egypt could and would have this marker, in relatively higher frequencies?"
"One Y-specific DNA polymorphism (p49/Taql) was studied in a sample of 469 African males coming from twelve populations of sub-Saharan Africa. An high frequency (62.5%) of the Y-haplotype IV was observed in these populations, the most elevated percentage of this haplotype being observed in Mossis (from Burkina-Fasso). The “Arabic” haplotype V is present in these populations at a mean frequency of 8.7%. The “oriental” haplotype XI is present at a mean frequency of 11.3%, the most elevated percentage of this haplotype being observed in Songhaiis (from Niger).—Lucotte G. and Gérard N. 2000, Haplotypes of the Y chromosome in some populations of west Africa"
I just think such a discussion deserves its own thread.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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I noticed that when people talk about mixed East Africans such as the Tigre/Somali people, they often don't say where the mixture comes from. Its always simply a Caucasoid mixture without showing any connection to Caucasian people.
What argument is there for in situ phenotype of East Africans being called Caucasoid when they are the progenitors of such phenotype? Its simply outdated terminology that hasn't caught up with reality.
On another subject, Nubians do not correlate with Ancient Egyptians in terms of phenotype; at least not as much as Somali/Oromo people at least not according to Egyptians or according to what I see of the the Nuba.
The Nuba people appear far more like the Nubian people that the Egyptians often depicted. Where as Oromo people of Punt were depicted with facial features identical to that of the Egyptians.
-------------------- Across the sea of time, there can only be one of you. Make you the best one you can be. Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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Who told u that Tigre/Tigrinia-Tigray-Eritrea are mixed.
Amhara are just Tigrinians who have Cushitic elements of Agaw,Bilen,Oromo mixture.
I totally dont agree with alot of these studies according to lingustic u think Amhara is pure Semetic well it is not it has many Cushitic elements in it.
Even those of Northern Tigray and Eritrea are not mixed with Arabs or any of that.
I dont see were u see the difference in look between Oromo,somali,eritrean,sudani,djboutin,gurage,amhara these are all related.
Not even Sabean is purely semetic it has cushitic elements within the language. Take agaw for instance they speak a cushitic language and they are Beta Israel the socalled Jews and according to DNA studies they have nothing different from other christian and muslim ethiopians same genetically.
Not Any of U can come up with any clear evidence to prove that those in the Horn are mixed Amhara have no ties to Yemen or Sabeans or habashi, Amhara is the mingling of Habashi with Oromo and other tribes u get Amhara. Tigrinia gave Birth to Amharic, Amharic are nothing but Tigrinian expansionist who mingled in with the other tribes they fell upon.
Posts: 410 | From: Al-Ard | Registered: Jun 2009
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