Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
Member # 23365
posted
I feel like Tukuler is in possession of a multitude of scholastic sources that would easily debunk the false eurocentric narratives that have been forced onto the world, but for some reason he only shares them little by little or not at all
Posts: 2491 | From: North America | Registered: Mar 2021
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Thx Taz (you're no slouch in the primary/secondary documentation department yourself either btw). I appreciate the appreciation
Who's really interested? Who asks? Who anymore replies when I drop a gem (I mean, I need thoughtful comments, constructive critique, and corrective suggestions to improve)?
Tanakh says Wisdom Knowledge Understanding Wisdom is the principle thing therefore attain wisdom
An old rabbinic aphorism more or less says this about Knowledge: Giving knowledge freely enriches the receiver without diminishing the giver.
I say Understanding only comes after many decades devoted to cross disciplines study, person to person(s)/person to object(s) field work, and intellectually productive discussion/interviews.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: There is no Afrocentric narrative. Africa is Africa and there have always been black Africans in Africa. Your obsession with claiming otherwise is just absurd. And according to you white Europeans saying there were black Africans in North Africa are also "Afrocentric". That is just you and your usual gibberish.
Africa is a continent not a country and the continent that host the highest ethnic diversity. Being a dark skinned african from a specific region doesn't mean you're native of all parts of Africa. The same way an indian is not native to Japan despite being an asian and japan located in Asia. So the only absurdity here is your muh african but we all know why you bring this.
Black Africans have been in North Africa for over 100,000 years. What scholar claims that Eurasians were in North Africa over 50,000 years ago? Your arguments are absurd and illogical and not based on any facts. The world was mostly black skinned over 20,000 years ago due to OOA. All this back and forth with you obsessing over North Africa as somehow always being of Eurasian origin is the problem not "scholars", even though so much of the work from the 18th century to 21st century is definitely promoting this nonsense. And in terms of modern scholarship, mostly they admit that ancient populations of North Africans were of African origin with some "Eurasian" mixture in terms of DNA lineages they identify as "Eurasian". That does not mean that those ancient North Africans 20,000 years ago were white skinned populations with Eurasian features. This idea is purely pseudo-science and this is what I am calling out. However, that does not mean that there has been no mixture in North Africa, but the contradiction on your part is you treat mixture as "indigenous" when it is not. North Africans theoretically without any Eurasian mixture will be black African as a basal population. But in your twisted way of looking at it the ancient basal or aboriginal population of North African was "Eurasian" and then more Eurasians came in the Neotlithic and no later migrations during classical antiquity had any impact on these populations..... This is your whole reason for existing on this forum no matter how false that model of ancient North African history is.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: White Scholars never said there were native black populations in coastal north africa or Egypt but only in the Sahara and the sahara wasn't seen as north africa back in ancient and medieval times you're simply projecting the modern borders unto the past ones.
North African history is over 200,000 years old since before there was a white person on this planet. You don't know what you are talking about. White Eurasians did not get to North Africa before black Africans who have always been indigenous to North Africa. There is a big difference between claiming that small population sizes in certain parts of North Africa allowed for a greater genetic impact of Eurasian migrants and that black Africans never were there to begin with. The latter is the part that you keep obsessing over arbitrarily trying to latch onto any scholarship that you can try and use to prop up your absurd arguments. The presence of "Eurasian" DNA in an ancient African population does not make that population white, just like the presence of African DNA lineages in some European population does not make that population black. You keep trying to use these DNA lineages as racial or phenotype markers when they are not.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: There is a long history of black people in the Mediterranean some with "caucasoid" features and straight hair. All your attestations otherwise are irrelevant, as if these people just "made it up":
There was no "long history of black people in the mediterranean" historical sources show that they were rarely seen in this region (much less than today that's for sure) and were seen as very exotic/alien. The people you post here are minoans and we already have the dna results of such people they're related to modern south europeans certainly not any "black" population. The fact that they depicted the men as darker than the females is an old mediterranean artistic convention that we found in egypt, italy, greece, etc
And you are wrong again as usual with your non historical narratives. Homer's books the Illiad and Odyssey were written as part of a trilogy of books where the third book of the trilogy was called "the Aethiopian". The inspiration for these works came from these historical depictions of black Africans and black Minoans in early Greek art. Therefore, the presence of blacks in the Mediterranean is ancient and your attempts to deny this are simply your own prejudices coming to the fore again.
quote: After the death of Hector, Troy gains new allies. One is an Ethiopian prince named Memnon (son of the Goddess of the Dawn) who supplies Troy with a large army, but who is killed by Achilles. Another new ally is Penthesilia, leader of the Amazons (female warriors). Penthesilia is also slain by Achilles. But he grieves over her and is mocked for it by Thersites (who we saw in Book 2 of the Iliad). Achilles kills him.
quote: King Nestor son of Nelios, was one of the Achaean chieftains who, according to the Iliad, went with his fleet of 90 black ships to Troy (only Agamemnon sent more ships) to wrest Menelaus' wife Helen back from Paris, and was one of the few to return safely. He is described by Homer as wise, eloquent (if not verbose!) and a peacemaker, and is said to have lived to over a hundred. There was for a long time debate as to whether his palace was in Elis, near Olympia, as Homer describes in the Iliad or by the shore, as described in the Odyssey, but in 1939 Carl Blengen found the remains of a Mycenaean Palace 10 miles north of modern Pylos at Epano Englianos, and this is now believed to be Nestor's. Excavations were stopped during the war and restarted in 1952 continuing until 1966. About one thousand Linear B tablets found here were an important factor in the deciphering of the script by Michael Ventris in 1952, and thus making the connection between the Minoan and Mycenaean civilisations.
And it is from this evidence, that Homer included blacks in his works the Illiad and Odyssey. This has been a problem for many white scholars as they have to make up all sorts of convoluted logic to try and explain away this possibility. Even denying the presence of obviously black people in ancient artwork from Mediterranean Greece.
quote: And what of ‘black-skinned’? Was Odysseus in fact black? Or was he (as Emily Wilson’s acclaimed new translation renders it) ‘tanned’? Once again, we can see how different translations prompt modern readers to envisage these characters in completely different ways. But to understand the Homeric text, we need to shed these modern associations. Odysseus’ blackness, like Achilles’ xanthos hair, isn’t intended to play to modern racial categories; rather, it carries with it ancient poetic associations. At another point in the Odyssey, we are told of Odysseus’ favourite companion Eurybates, who ‘was round-shouldered, black-skinned (melanokhroos), and curly-haired … Odysseus honoured him above his other comrades, because their minds worked in the same way.’ The last part is the crucial bit: their minds work in the same way, presumably, because Eurybates and Odysseus are both wily tricksters. And, indeed, we find the association between blackness and tricksiness elsewhere in early Greek thought.
Either way, the Illiad and Odyssey are mythological stories largely inspired by actual historical events and depictions. And therefore the presence of black Africans in those works is directly inspired by actual history as documented in these ancient artworks which people like you love to pretend don't exist.
BTW as for your argument that these colors represent a convention of depicting males as darker than females also doesn't hold water.
quote: The team’s previous major excavation, in 2015, was a nearby burial site now known as the Griffin Warrior grave. It unearthed gold and silver treasure, jewelry, a bronze sword, and Minoan art objects that showed a strong network of exchanged goods between Pylos and Crete. That discovery, too, revealed that there was more cross-cultural complexity in the region than was originally assumed.
Together, the couple’s recent excavations in Pylos have shown that the city may have played a bigger role in Mycenaean civilization (a period that lasted roughly between 1650 and 1100 BC) than was previously believed. The civilization was thought to have originated in Mycene, another Greek city.
“What is emerging as a result of these excavations,” Jeremy B. Rutter, a Mycenaean archaeologist at Dartmouth College, told the New York Times, “is that Pylos was a real powerhouse in the early Mycenaean period.”
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: And of course this was also true in North Africa.
How do you know this is not a descendent of slave ? Even the french author of this pic wrote "negresse " so not even berber, north african, arab, etc
How many times are you going to deny this reality :
quote:Mass Arab enslavement of Black Africans began in the seventh century , soon after the founding of Islam and the beginning of Arab-Islamic civilisation. It lasted at least until the early part of the twentieth century. Roughly 4,820,000 Black Africans were taken into slavery in North Africa between 650 and 1600 AD alone (Harich et al. 2010). Approximately 14 million Blacks were wrenched from their homelands and forced into slavery in the Muslim World as a whole from the seventh to twentieth century (Harich et al. 2010).
Slavery existed in all parts of Islam and your attempts to make this an "African" thing is non historical BS. The word "slave" comes from the European custom of taking slaves from Slavic populations and therefore is not synonymous with "African". There were Turkic slaves, Asian slaves, Indian slaves and so forth because the enslavement of non Muslims was promoted by Islam. However, beyond that what does Arab enslavement of Africans have to do with black Africans being in North Africa 20,000 years ago? There were no Arabs then or at least anything called "Arab" in language, identity or culture.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: North African history is over 200,000 years old since before there was a white person on this planet. Black Africans have been in North Africa for over 100,000 years.
Originally thought to be Neanderthals, the specimens have since been assigned to Homo sapiens or Homo helmei and, as reported in 2017, have been dated to roughly 300,000 years ago. While the Jebel Irhoud specimens originally were noted to have been similar to later Aterian and Iberomaurusian specimens,[22] further examinations revealed that the Jebel Irhoud specimens differ from them in that they have a continuous supraorbital torus while the Aterian and Iberomaurasian specimens have a discontinuous supraorbital torus or, in some cases, none at all, and from this, it was concluded that the Jebel Irhoud specimens represent archaic Homo sapiens while the Aterian and Iberomaurasian specimens represent anatomically modern Homo sapiens. Despite this, it was noted that the Jebel Irhoud specimen whose cranium was complete enough to assess, showed "hints of 'modern' basicranial flexion in the relationship of the face and vault", and the teeth of another Jebel Irhoud specimen were subjected to synchrotron analysis that suggested "a modern developmental pattern.
How do we know what the skin color or amount of body hair was at that time ?
Or more recent, say 50kya sample How do we know what the skin color or amount of body hair was at that time ?
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
@Tukuler stay on topic pls I don't see what you posted has to do with the punic samples from Kerkouane
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: @Tukuler stay on topic pls I don't see what you posted has to do with the punic samples from Kerkouane
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As an antagonistic threat Y-O-U brought up slavery re North Africa.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: And of course this was also true in North Africa.
How many times are you going to deny this reality :
quote:Mass Arab enslavement of Black Africans began in the seventh century , soon after the founding of Islam and the beginning of Arab-Islamic civilisation. It lasted at least until the early part of the twentieth century. Roughly 4,820,000 Black Africans were taken into slavery in North Africa between 650 and 1600 AD alone (Harich et al. 2010). Approximately 14 million Blacks were wrenched from their homelands and forced into slavery in the Muslim World as a whole from the seventh to twentieth century (Harich et al. 2010).
I simply responded with two photo image examples cut and paste from academic books. * ibn Butlan extolling Berber slave girls above all others. Arab enslavement * the actual Latin of a papal bull banning Canary Berber. European enslavement Just because you call us abd/akli doesn't erase your slave history. More coming whenever you bring up slavery no matter if deleted just imagine replying to the broachers' own comment is off-topic and merits erasure. Enjoy your staff protection not afforded this Mauritanian-American Jew.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: @Tukuler stay on topic pls I don't see what you posted has to do with the punic samples from Kerkouane
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As an antagonistic threat Y-O-U brought up slavery re North Africa.
I simply responded with two examples. Just because you call us abd/akli doesn't erase your slave history. More coming whenever you bring up slavery.
The fact that some berbers got enslaved does not contradict the fact that millions of black slaves were exported to North Africa.
Also why do you always try to play the victim ? Are you aware those black slaves were captured and sold to my ancestors by black muslims ?
Anyway if you want another example of maghrebis being enslaved here one which you can add to your insecure collection :
quote: In 1471 the Portuguese attacked Asila and carried more than five thousand of its inhabitants into slavery.140 Al- Tazi, a contemporary poet (d. 1514), described the plight of the captives as they were dragged away by their Iberian captors, at the same time that he called on his countrymen for action and for avenging the desecration that had befallen the slaves: If your eyes had seen how they left, you would have wept blood Mothers were separated from their children, and husband from wife Their tears streamed down their cheeks, for the loss of those they loved The veil was taken away from the virgin, revealing all her beauty and charm And the enemy stared at her beauty, while her tears accompanied her moans . . .
Edmund Burke, Morocco and the Near East : Reflections on some basic differences, pp. 61
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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quote:Originally posted by Antalas: [qb] @Tukuler stay on topic pls I don't see what you posted has to do with the punic samples from Kerkouane
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As an antagonistic threat Y-O-U brought up slavery re North Africa.
the first and second to mention of the word "slave" in the thread was by El Maestro posted 15 March, 2022 08:19 PM (in bottom of post)
second posted 15 March, 2022 08:46 PM
I'm allowing slavery mentioned but it has to be connected to analysis of the Kerkouane samples
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
That's fine. You can do what you please. When registering people overlook the 'terms aand conditions' which stipulate moderators can do what they see fit to do without explanation. Works for you didn't work for me.
but Antalas himself brought up slavery unconnected to anything about the Kerkouane samples sans reprimand.
As you say elM mentioned it too. Two mentions before me but I cite it with actual academic imgs and --pooph-- it's worthy of removal?
Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Nobody but your strawman contradicted the fact of the well known slave trade and slave raiding of inner Africans from antiquity to today.
Only someone well below avg education would dare be foolish enough to try and do that.
The slave trade was sanctioned by inner African emperores etc., the raids were conducted by cowardly Mediterranean Africans against defenseless villagers.
As I have posted before I am against my people holding slaves today in the Tekrur[*] and by Fula holding Maliens and Nigeriens slaves there. Whether apologized as a form of social security or not no human should claim to own another, own their resource but not their person.
Meanwhile, in your insecurity, you relish equating all inner Africans to slaves. Nevermind your non-judgement of your people holdingslaves. After all black human=slave to your people in everyday common parlance even though North Africans were selling Berbers as slaves at least until the 19th century. You must live that down.
You equated the cotton spinning "negresse" (sic) to a slave, then ruled out her possibility of being "berber" or even simply "North African" due to that. Yet in fact she is Tunisian except to biological determinists.
=-=-=-=
[*] Takruri were the first Muslims of the western Beled es-Sudan. They provided sanctuary to founder of al Murabitun. They joined al Murabitun in conquering then enforcing Abu Bakr ibn Umar's Islam on Berbers who resisted and Takruri assisted the spread of al Murabitun into al Andalus.
Meanwhile you relish calling all inner Africans slaves. Nevermind your non-judgement of your people holding slaves. After all black human=slave to your people in everyday common parlance.
I challenge you to find a single post from me where I state or imply that all inner africans are slaves. If you can't then I'll have some talk with the moderators because I start to be fed up with your constant lies and strawman.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Nice try of deflecting guilt not that I expected any kind of retraction remiss or reproach over Berbers enslaving Gnawa since that Mulay with the Gnawa slave mother himself up to Mauritania right now.
So you fear me and run to staff to override what everyone can see? You equate black to slave and can't help it because it's embedded in North African sociology. You can't hide that fact.
And you do it everytime you bring up inner Africans far too many times for me to waste my time compiling such a list. If you want it make it yourself.
Do you have anything worthy of perusal and comment? I will not chit chat with you about your abusive conjuring of slavery to explain away black presence in Mediterranean North Africa. And I already know you have staff on your side so go try frightening children with your boogeyman.
Otherwise keep selling your wolf tickets. They surely amuse the mindless. Until something worth learning ... Bye bye to you.
posted
please stick to the topic like Doug does. Doug argues against Antalas but he doesn't get caught up in all this personal banter
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
I think you need a yes/no diagnostic flowchart.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: please stick to the topic
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
How many times are you going to deny this reality :
quote:Mass Arab enslavement of Black Africans began in the seventh century , soon after the founding of Islam and the beginning of Arab-Islamic civilisation. It lasted at least until the early part of the twentieth century. Roughly 4,820,000 Black Africans were taken into slavery in North Africa between 650 and 1600 AD alone (Harich et al. 2010). Approximately 14 million Blacks were wrenched from their homelands and forced into slavery in the Muslim World as a whole from the seventh to twentieth century (Harich et al. 2010).
If that's not an antagonistic personal threat then nothing is.
I stuck to the topic of slavery that the OP Antalas himself threatened to bombard this thread with although nobody on ES has ever denied trans- Sahran slave trade and slave raids.
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Meanwhile you relish calling all inner Africans slaves. Nevermind your non-judgement of your people holding slaves. After all black human=slave to your people in everyday common parlance.
I challenge you to find a single post from me where I state or imply that all inner africans are slaves. If you can't then I'll have some talk with the moderators because I start to be fed up with your constant lies and strawman.
As all can see from the above quotes
I stuck to a topic Antalas brought up and keeps expanding on without reprimand but is bad bad bad when I reply to him and it.
I think it's you projecting the personal into this evinced in your one-handed moderation and comment.
You'd be honest if you just told me not to reply to Antalas (who apparently has site owner dictated immunity since banned twice already under previous aliases and free to define who peoples are or distort what posters actually write and raise strawman after strawman).
I mean the man questions me and according to you I'm not allowed to answer him? I'm just supposed to shut up and let him say whatever he wants when I make a post?
Meanwhile what have you contributed to the thread topic?
posted
I mean Al isn't wrong, every single black/dark skinned Berber posted here is dismissed by Nassa as a slave decendant, as if North Africa was deviod of black skinned people until the Trans-Saharan slave trade.
Then he argues tirelessly for a weird neo version of the True Negro vs. Hamite African fallacy. And people like Lioness or Archeo will default defend him even if he's in the wrong. Like Archeo in the "Who is Black" thread Literally sh#t on African Americans just because Nassa was arguing with Lisa(who I don't even think is AA) while she praised AA influence on the Diaspora, Like Nassa promoting weird Neo- Hamite/True Negro theory is OK because its "HIS" culture and AA are just a bunch of confused Angry Afrocentrists
Whatever just my two cents, might get deleted.
I mean I like Nassa in my own weird way...
PS: It was kinda f-d up you deleted his Ibn Bhattuta quote tho, was actually some good scholarship and a rare decrpition of Saharan Berber tribes.. Off topic or not this site is starved of actualy scholarship..JS
Doubt Al will post something like that again.
Posts: 8804 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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You brought the hamite theory which I told you was racist and outdated and you also brought IQ. Moreover I clearly stated that it wasn't about "true negro " but simply about being similar to modern west or central africans no matter your physical features.
As for slavery, you really think you guys know better the history of my region than me ? Also are you implying that all blacks look the same ? Because I can easily recognize your regular haratin from your obvious senegambian or west african.
I'm pretty sure the trans-saharan slave trade brought more people than all the native black saharans. Also you can travel and ask them where they are from or what's their history and they'll also bring slavery but strangely you wouldn't have any problem with that. Only when it's a north african that bring this it's "racist" "false" "obsession" ...smh I think you guys (for obvious reasons) tend to really underestimate the impact of the slave trade. Also don't pretend these vintage pictures aren't used by afrocentrists to back up their ridiculous claims.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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posted
If you don't think a poster should exist, go to the admin but don't simultaneously post in their thread making other comments on the topic, that is BS
If the admin chooses not to ban who you want banned that is your problem,
This thread will remain on topic.
I allow Afrocentric and Eurocentric and whatever else centric points of view
TOPIC: A Genetic History of Continuity and Mobility in the Iron Age Central Mediterranean Moots et al , 2022
So where are these punics who were 100% lebanese ?? WHo were these black punics who got replaced by arabs ? Hhahaha that never existed, punics were basically punicized north africans and genetically no that much different from modern north africans.
You might argue that van de Loosdrecht is wrong about Taforalt being one third sub-Saharan African origin and perhaps attempt to quote Lazardis seeming to state otherwise
but independent of this, your article also says "a sub-Saharan African component that was introduced in the last 5,000 years" That is over 2,000 years before Carthage Or you can chop off 1,500 years from that and still have sub-Saharans in the region prior to Punic culture and then later becoming a component of it
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You might argue that van de Loosdrecht is wrong about Taforalt being one third sub-Saharan African origin and perhaps attempt to quote Lazardis seeming to state otherwise
but independent of this, your article also says "a sub-Saharan African component that was introduced in the last 5,000 years" That is over 2,000 years before Carthage Or you can chop off 1,500 years from that and still have sub-Saharans in the region prior to Punic culture and then later becoming a component of it [/QB]
sub-saharan punics ? No it shows that one sample had ssa ancestry like modern north africans (I already posted his results) because these ignorants think that SSA ancestry could only appear after the trans-saharan slave trade. Also they wrote false informations most numidians weren't nomads and they didn't live in the Sahara.
Posts: 1779 | From: Somewhere In the Rif Mountains | Registered: Nov 2021
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