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What Christopher Ehret really thinks about the origins of Afoasiatic speakers
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Swenet: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Swenet: [qb] I think its wrong to identify Proto-Berbers, or even Proto-Chadians (exclusively) with the Capsian culture. There were obviously lineages in Northern Africa that predate the onset of the Holocene. Why is Ehret making such rudimentary errors? The typical Berber paternal NRY marker E-M81, which may be used to identify their expansion into North Africa, originated less than 6000 years ago.[/qb][/QUOTE]I was thinking the same thing-- Berber lineages only date back to the Neolithic whereas Capsian culture is older. In fact the Capsian culture began around 10,000 B.C.E. and ended 6,000 B.C.E. right when 'Berber' lineages appeared in the area. Capsian Culture is the direct descendant of the Oranian a.k.a. 'Iberomaurusian' Culture 18,000-11,000 B.C.E. [/qb][/QUOTE]Indeed, whats interesting is that the starting date of the latter culture fits nicely with Frigi's analysis of Tunesian maternal lineages. L3* was said to have been brought from Eastern Africa to North Africa around 20.000 years ago, though pre-berbers people in Nothern Africa are undoubtedly much older, and related to Capsian people. Old modern North African lineages such as U6 strongly point to a very ancient presence of pre-Berbers in the region, and we also wouldn't expect Capsians to group away from Africans in limb proportians and cranio-facial affinity if the ancestral Capsian people were only 20ky migrants from Eastern Africa. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Swenet: [QUOTE][qb]-During the Holocene, we get the migration of Proto-Afrasan people towards the Nile Valley, which is why we have their lineages and languages (Medjay, Ancient Egyptian, Berber) in Egypt, the Middle East and possibly all three languages in Ancient Sudan as well. These Holocenic demographic changes are what cause people to think that the core Egyptian population must have been genetically identical to Proto-Afrasan speakers, even though Neolithic Egyptians/Northern Sudanese display numerous signs of local differentiation, consistent with above described relatively distant relationship of most Ancient Egyptians to ancestral Somali's and Ethiopians. [/qb][/QUOTE]I think you're on to something here. So what about pharaonic origins in the Eastern Deserts per scholars like Toby Wilkinson? Do you think such origins [i]are[/i] associated with early Afrasian speakers?? [/qb][/QUOTE]I don't think there are enough remains that would allow one to objectively make a statement in that regard, although body measurements might be a useful marker in the future. Medjay people, and Nubians in general, were, on average, somewhat taller than Predynastic Egyptians, probably because they were they were still very much living a hunter gatherer life style. If the Predynastic Eastern Desert remains turn out to show more affinity with the later Medjay people in this regard, we may be able to conclude from that that they were more similar to modern groups in the Eastern Desert (e.g., Beja) than to Ancient Egyptians. The thing that complicates the answer to your question is that (Southern) Egyptians didn't live exclusively along the Nile before and around the time of the Badarians. They were semi nomads, and so, there is no telling where they might have went other than the most obvious Plata's, Wadi's and Oases. So, even if the remains turn out to show more affinity to Medjay people than to Predynastic Egyptians, you still can't rule out the drawings were made by Predynastic Egyptians [/QB][/QUOTE]
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